Tournament Organizers: Select Your Stages Carefully

[EdreesesPieces]

Hi everyone. There's something that's bothering me a ton lately. Tournaments in socal have extremely varied selection of counterpick stages. I personally believe we need to settle on something consistent for every tournament (as much as we can) to legitimize tournament results more. For example, if Norfair is on at one tournament and not another, that can seriously change the results by itself. I think we need to make it consistent.

The second problem is that our stages are different from the ones many east coast big name TO's have agreed upon. This is to our disadvantage. When we travel we will not have the experience to play on these stages. I believe we should have them on. How could we allow Luigi's Mansion but not allow Pictochat? Do you honestly mean to tell me that Pictochat has something so broken in it that is missing from Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion, AND Corneria? That doesn't make any sense or consistency.

This is why I strongly urge us to adopt something based off the Smash backroom's recommend stage list:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

We should make a recommended stage lists of our own based off that list with some changes. I can compile a "recommended rules and stages' and sticky it at the top of the Pacific West section to facilitate consistent rules. This is only if I can gather enough support on one list. At least one for the region I'm from, Socal would do us a lot of good.

Please throw your input and discuss so we can at least TRY to arrive at something. Let's go off the backroom's list and add in or remove stages. Here's my adjustment off the backroom's list

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counter
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1
Brinstar
Corneria
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Norfair
Pictochat
Rainbow Cruise

Banned
Pirate Ship
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Pokemon Stadium 2
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

Honestly, if Luigi's mansion and castle siege are on, I don't see any reason why we aren't allowing Distant Planet or Pictochat. I think it would be more consistent to ban all four rather than two of the four.

 

[Lovage 805]

distant planet and pictochat



no

 

[EdreesesPieces]

What makes them worse than Castle Siege, Corneria and Luigi's Mansion? I'm for banning them too, but if we ban these three along with them. don't forget that east coast allows Pictochat in many many tournaments. Time for us to get ***** over there when people counter pick it on us and we don't even know the stage formations.

 

[The Game II]

I do agree that you all need consistency. The one question I get more than any, even more than "Are you recording my match?" is "Is ______ allowed/a counterpick?"

The most known TOs should start talking about what works and what doesn't.

--GCII

 

[Race]

I agree with edrees on this one. Especialy with knowing that east coast TOs use stages we're not used to yet. I personaly switch up the counter pick stages a bit after every tourney I run to see if they really make a diffrence. So far it really hassn't tough, because everyone picks the same counter pick stages as always according to their character in which they know their match up the best. Which is fine and expected, but maybe we could see how another level would do? try going into practice mode and testing out a stage might open new doors or discover some really good advantages for certain characters!

I'm experimenting with pirate ship on my next tourney, I really do hope I get to see someone pick it and use it to thier advantage.

 

[EazyP]

distant planet and pictochat



no

I honestly don't get what the problem is with Pictochat, the stage isn't bad at all, should at least be counter. Nothing "broken" about it, just has a bit of randomness to it

 

[The Game II]

I honestly don't get what the problem is with Pictochat, the stage isn't bad at all, should at least be counter. Nothing "broken" about it, just has a bit of randomness to it

If I was home, I would try to find out how much damage those random events hurt the characters. I don't think any of them are 1HKO, but it's something to note.

--GCII

 

[Marceux]

If our goal is to be able to compete with the other coast, then I say we move towards allowing pictochat and distant planet.

 

[∫unk]

In a "neutral position" (both players standing on the stage a few body lengths apart. I've hit my opponent onto the first pictochat bomb which launched him into the second pictochat bomb for an easy 60%.

I haven't tested this thoroughly but this would probably be inescapable at low percents. I was Marth and I f-aired a Jiggs into it if that helps anyone.

Also, I thought Skyworld was a counterpick from the SBR? That's what someone was telling me in the Ken Evo thread.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Yeah it is. I just moved it to the ban list on my own list. Don't think anyone besides GW and Rob users would mind. Hehe.

 

[Lovage 805]

i can agree with pictochat, not distant planet
i think luigis should be banned, I think ec is starting to ban it because people would just plank on game 3 (pick MK on luigis and run the timer)

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I really don't see why allowing Luigi's Mansion or Castle Siege implies Pictochat or Distant Planet should be on. I mean, I don't understand why you think that that is a "consistent" stage set. I don't see anything obviously wrong with Castle Siege, whereas Pictochat to me is a clear ban.

I think one thing that people often miss when it comes to stage discussions is that "imbalance" is not the only reason to ban a stage. Nothing about Pictochat really stikes me as imbalanced. Nor are the transformations really that hard to learn. But what I think people really need to avoid is having a stage set where potentially play what amounts to 3 fundamentally different games in a set of Brawl. That is to say, each stage tests a certain set of skills. I argue that Pictochat tests stupid skills that I don't understand why anybody cares about and are too disjoint from the rest of the game. And no matter HOW FAIR or HOW EASY it is to play on a stage, if at the end of a day it is simply testing a set of skills that is too different from the rest of the game, there is no reason to believe that results from this stage give a reasonable evaluation of "skill." This same argument applies to many other stages that we ban.

 

[pockyD]

I'm Sheridan, and I thought it would be a good idea to legalize Shadow Moses Island.

 

[Boolossus]

Distant Planet is way too crazy for me. When it rains, the water makes the whole left side of the stage almost un-playable. It has no edges to grab, and the monster can eat you!

Picto-chat is meh with me. The stage itself is normal... the walls are to close though. The thing is, that most of the drawings severely hinder movement. You are unable to pass through most of the drawn lines, which is a serious disturbance. Also, some of the drawings are really hazardous. The one where they draw a fence with spiky posts makes it next to impossible to play on until they erase the drawings. I suppose I could see this one being a counter-pick.

Luigi's Mansion has no hazards. The mansion gets torn down during the fight, making it easier to maneuver. Although it does re-build itself after it's been completely destroyed, there's a good amount of time where the stage is really plain.

Castle seige doesn't really have hazards either. As long as you're smart, you won't be ko'd by the stage changes. The first and third levels are totally great for fighting on. The second one is okay I suppose. It does have walk-off edges, but it only stays on that level for a short amount of time, and it's big enough so that the walk-off edges don't have too much of an impact on the fight.

I think that Yoshi's Island should be counter-pick. It's un-level ground and moving platform make things a big too awkward for it to be as fair as SV, BF and FD.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is just as fair as Norfair IMO. Norfair is great and all, but the lava can just be too much at times. Pokemon Stadium 2 is playable on all transformations, except for the Flying transformation. As much as I like Pokemon Stadium 2, I hate that transformation. The Earth and Ice transformations are totally cool with me, the Electric transformation can be a little annoying. But the Flying transformation is absurd. If players could find a way to play during that transformation, then I think that Pokemon Stadium 2 could be counter-pick material.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Distant Planet is way too crazy for me. When it rains, the water makes the whole left side of the stage almost un-playable. It has no edges to grab, and the monster can eat you!

Picto-chat is meh with me. The stage itself is normal... the walls are to close though. The thing is, that most of the drawings severely hinder movement. You are unable to pass through most of the drawn lines, which is a serious disturbance. Also, some of the drawings are really hazardous. The one where they draw a fence with spiky posts makes it next to impossible to play on until they erase the drawings. I suppose I could see this one being a counter-pick.

Luigi's Mansion has no hazards. The mansion gets torn down during the fight, making it easier to maneuver. Although it does re-build itself after it's been completely destroyed, there's a good amount of time where the stage is really plain.

Castle seige doesn't really have hazards either. As long as you're smart, you won't be ko'd by the stage changes. The first and third levels are totally great for fighting on. The second one is okay I suppose. It does have walk-off edges, but it only stays on that level for a short amount of time, and it's big enough so that the walk-off edges don't have too much of an impact on the fight.

I think that Yoshi's Island should be counter-pick. It's un-level ground and moving platform make things a big too awkward for it to be as fair as SV, BF and FD.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is just as fair as Norfair IMO. Norfair is great and all, but the lava can just be too much at times. Pokemon Stadium 2 is playable on all transformations, except for the Flying transformation. As much as I like Pokemon Stadium 2, I hate that transformation. The Earth and Ice transformations are totally cool with me, the Electric transformation can be a little annoying. But the Flying transformation is absurd. If players could find a way to play during that transformation, then I think that Pokemon Stadium 2 could be counter-pick material.

distant planet does have edges....i'm not going to even read the rest of your post because you already proved to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Lovage 805]

let me introduce you to the exotic fragrances of east india

 

[ConnorTheKid]

Luigi's Mansion is the dumbest stage ever.

 

[Shmooguy]

no johns, when i hold a brawl tournament i'm allowing all stages ^^

 

[kouryuuXfighter]

I agree with edrees on this one. Especialy with knowing that east coast TOs use stages we're not used to yet. I personaly switch up the counter pick stages a bit after every tourney I run to see if they really make a diffrence. So far it really hassn't tough, because everyone picks the same counter pick stages as always according to their character in which they know their match up the best. Which is fine and expected, but maybe we could see how another level would do? try going into practice mode and testing out a stage might open new doors or discover some really good advantages for certain characters!

I'm experimenting with pirate ship on my next tourney, I really do hope I get to see someone pick it and use it to thier advantage.

If your going to experiment with new stages, try experimenting with the new stage list instead of a stage that is already considered unworthy of being a decent counterpick. If you want my reasons why Pirate ship is not a decent counterpick:

1. The flip/trigger killed me at around 0% one time at a tourney!
2. At one point, I found myself avoiding bombs more than actually fighting(btw, when I was hit by the bomb, I died at around 20%).
3. When the ship is falling from the sky, it's no different than PS 2 Flying transformation, which is dumb.
4. Half the battle (if not more) takes place in the water (note that if a player is run over by the ship, it's practically a 1HKO).

Race... DO NOT experiment with Pirate Ship. There are other, more reasonable stages to experiment with. After all, the whole point of this thread is to convince TO's to have a consistent ruleset.

______________________________________

Edrees! Why is Green Greens banned? That should be a counterpick.

 

[Praxis]

Why is Green Greens banned, but Luigi's Mansion isn't? Green Greens' small hazards don't affect the match anywhere near as much as Luigi's Mansion encourages spammering and tiltlocks and allows people to live forever by teching and staying inside the mansion.

Green Greens makes an effective counterpick against characters with good recovery (ROB, Meta, Game & Watch, etc) because the short walls make the recovery take lesser importance. Great for characters like Link, lol.

The hazards are far less notable than, say, Norfair.

 

[mikeHAZE]

pirate ship isn't that bad.


you died from the trigger because you dont know how to DI.

you avoided the bombs...kinda just like any other stage with a stage hazard right?

falling ship is stupid.

half the battle takes place in the water if you're stupid.


yeah ship is 1hko....if it hits you. heres a strategy i've tried once or twice, idk if it makes sense or not but: don't get hit by the ship?

 

[Shmooguy]

lol mike

i think pirate ship is bad for tourneys

but it looks awesome when you're flying through the air

 

[Boolossus]

It's been so long since I've played on distant planet, I forgot it had edges. Still is a bit crazy for my taste though.

 

[pockyD]

"I don't like it" is not an argument for banning a stage

 

[ConnorTheKid]

Luigi's Mansion is ridiculous because of the walls and pillars. People can easily live up to over 160%

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I really don't see why allowing Luigi's Mansion or Castle Siege implies Pictochat or Distant Planet should be on. I mean, I don't understand why you think that that is a "consistent" stage set. I don't see anything obviously wrong with Castle Siege, whereas Pictochat to me is a clear ban.

I think one thing that people often miss when it comes to stage discussions is that "imbalance" is not the only reason to ban a stage. Nothing about Pictochat really stikes me as imbalanced. Nor are the transformations really that hard to learn. But what I think people really need to avoid is having a stage set where potentially play what amounts to 3 fundamentally different games in a set of Brawl. That is to say, each stage tests a certain set of skills. I argue that Pictochat tests stupid skills that I don't understand why anybody cares about and are too disjoint from the rest of the game. And no matter HOW FAIR or HOW EASY it is to play on a stage, if at the end of a day it is simply testing a set of skills that is too different from the rest of the game, there is no reason to believe that results from this stage give a reasonable evaluation of "skill." This same argument applies to many other stages that we ban.

You answered your first paragraph with your second. Luigi's Mansion especially tests your ability to stay alive and tech rather than your ability to fight. It's not who does more damage on this stage, it's who happens to get a kill under 180% and who messes up their tech. I will make a gaurantee that if you record a match on Luigi's Mansion and then record on one Pictochat, the one on pictochat will have more of the same type of fighting, mind games, and edgeguarding you see on Final Destination than Lugi's Mansion could ever hope to see. I guess it would be safe to say that controversial stages so far are

-Pirate Ship
-Pictochat
-Luigi's Mansion
-Norfair
-Distant Planet (more controversial than the rest, less support)

 

[JTB]

I was being hit with fairs from a marth on Pirate ship and a bomb hit us and killed me

 

[Little England]

Pirate Ship is dumb. The switchy thing kills me all the time.

 

[EazyP]

Why is Green Greens banned, but Luigi's Mansion isn't? Green Greens' small hazards don't affect the match anywhere near as much as Luigi's Mansion encourages spammering and tiltlocks and allows people to live forever by teching and staying inside the mansion.

Green Greens makes an effective counterpick against characters with good recovery (ROB, Meta, Game & Watch, etc) because the short walls make the recovery take lesser importance. Great for characters like Link, lol.

The hazards are far less notable than, say, Norfair.

Green Greens has way too many walls, Dedede could have a picnics and it makes makes too unbalanced because of all these wall infinites and such, also it gets too risky to approach characters IMO

Pirate Ship, meh, it's annoying but I can deal with it, you see everything coming at you so nothings too bad. My only problem is the low gravity, same huge problem with PKMN 2

I feel like Distant Planet gives too much of an advantages to characters with quick/big ranged attacks once they take over the middle leafs/platforms of the stage, very very hard to approach, a bit ridiculous

Now, I think we should allow Port Town Aero Dive, while the car kills are murderous, I don't see a problem with it other than the cars

 

[Charoo]

stages that are not usually on in tournament:

distant planet
green hill zone
norfair
pictochat
pirate ship
pokemon stadium 2
yoshi's island (pipe)
green greens
mario circuit
onett
port town aero drive
skyworld

we should have a weekly discussion on each of these or something

i support: norfair, pictochat, Pokemon stadium 2, green greens, port town aero drive

stages i'm 50/50 with: distant planet, pirate ship, yoshi's island (pipe)

stages i'm against: green hill zone, mario circuit, onett, skyworld

I'll give a more detail reason if soem1 ask but I doubt any1 care about my opinion anyways. Edrees should've post a lthe counter pick instead of already putting stages into the banned list. You and ur mod pwoers haha jk

 

[kouryuuXfighter]

pirate ship isn't that bad.


you died from the trigger because you dont know how to DI.

you avoided the bombs...kinda just like any other stage with a stage hazard right?

falling ship is stupid.

half the battle takes place in the water if you're stupid.


yeah ship is 1hko....if it hits you. heres a strategy i've tried once or twice, idk if it makes sense or not but: don't get hit by the ship?

Next time I play you, I'm going to take you to Pirate Ship (assuming it's an available counter pick, of course).

 

[Lovage 805]

I think the biggest reason for banning Green Greens is DDD's wall infinite among other things

 

[The Great Leon]

Pirate Ship is a fun level, but the bombs disrupt game play too much. They are too powerful and end up either stalling the match or killing someone at ~60%. It also has the floaty air syndrome which leads most people to want to ban Pokemon Stadium 2.

-Pictochat's hazards aren't game breaking, but they certainly do influence the match. A decent chunk of percentage will be dealt while on this stage.

Port Town Aero Dive: the cars kill, there's no ledges (get pooped on tetherers), and there's random walls and ceilings while the platform is moving. Too random.

-Norfair. Characters with a Z-tether can live to around ~200% on Norfair by spamming Z right as they're sent flying. They grab onto one of the many ledges and cancel all momentum. This works until they stay in hitstun for too long. IIRC I managed to tether at 180% with Link. If my memory is faulty, and the percentages aren't that high, its still a notable concern. Is it a good stage for Z-tethers? Or is it imbalanced?

-Luigi's Mansion. idk lol.

-Distant Planet. IIRC you can't tether the slope while its raining. Frigate sometimes has a missing ledge too, but this one is harder to avoid due to the stage being more cramped together.

 

[AWSM!]

Lylat Cruise should be nuetral!

Rainbow Cruise and Norfair should be banned...

Put Pirate Ship, Port Town Aero Dive, back in

and am i the only one who likes Wario Ware, Spear Pillar and Pokemon Stadium 2?

just saying =)

 

[jyuuberu]

I think the biggest reason for banning Green Greens is DDD's wall infinite among other things

But we allow Corneria...

At least you can destroy the walls.

 

[mikeHAZE]

no we dont?

you're dum

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Wait, if we ban stages because DDD can infinite you there due to a wall, why don't we just ban the DDD infinite in every stage for the characters he can do it on every stage? Seems inconsistent to me. Either the infinite is OKAY or its not okay to me, so if we allow it, then we can't ban stages just because he can infinite you on there.

 

[mikeHAZE]

but then you would have to go for banning infinities in their entirety. and where do we draw the line? down tilt infinites? stand grab infinites? how many times can you hit or regrab the opponent before it's considered illegal?

the less you ban the better imo. takes away from the game.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

hey mike, how come nice shot hugo doesn't have an exclamation at the end

Nice shot, Hugo!

That's much better than

Nice shot Hugo

Knawmsayin'. Makes a big difference imo

 

[debaser]

only reason to play pirate ship is dragon roost island song