Tournament Ethics: Coaching

[#HBC | Mac]

Picture this scenario:
You are in grand finals of pound16 coming from the loser bracket. You noticed a small flaw in your opponents play, which you were able to use this flaw to your advantage and abused it. This led you to winning the first set of grand finals pretty squarely. The first 2 games of the second set also go to you. Your opponent is now in a tough spot. Between the second and third game, a friend of your opponent talks to your opponent. He had noticed the flaw you have been abusing in your opponents play and tells your opponent to stop doing what you were taking advantage of. He listens, and without the aid of this flaw, the next 3 games of the finals go to your opponent and he wins the set and the entire tourney.

Is this fair? Your opponent may have never noticed the flaw were it not for his friend telling him. Does this count as unfair outside help?

I remember there used to be a coaching rule in the official rule set, but I cannot remember what it stated. Should coaching in general be allowed in tourneys? If so, should the coaching be regulated in any way(only one person can coach you, etc). How do you deal with people screaming tips from the crowd.

Gimme your thoughts.

 

[ANTi_]

If you can camp then you can coach. ya diggz.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Interfering in a match should get you thrown out. I was talking to a friend of mine (Ness main) the other day, and he was saying people were going over to his tournament matches and walking his opponents through how to do grab release chaingrabs on Ness. These were people who didn't know about those things otherwise, and he was having to worry about losing matches to worse players because they were getting very powerful advice. It's just not okay; third parties talking shouldn't ever change the outcome of matches in tournament. I don't think it's a widespread problem, but it does come up.

There is of course broad leeway for being loud and getting excited, talking about what is going on, and making witty remarks including useless advice, but the line really should be changing games. If you are so loud it actually is distracting to a reasonable person or if you are giving game changing advice to someone, you should just not be tolerated and the TO needs to do something about you.

 

[Zodiac]

advice should NEVER be given in the middle of a match, but it should be given inbetween rounds to players who are beginners or otherwise aren't that good. I've lost a set before because my opponent had lain coaching him, in losers bracket I might add. its not a good feeling to know that if your opponent didn't have one of the best players coaching them you would have 2-0'd them, and then get knocked out. If there is coaching each player should have a coach, otherwise it is unfair. unless like I said before the player getting the coaching is a total beginner.

 

[cemo]

I think you should be allowed a coach. You can designate one coach who you can talk to inbetween matches of the set. Kind of ridiculous the implement in most tournies, though.

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81BZb99AaQs

M2K was coached at MLG, coaching is legit.

 

[pockyD]

i think it's so hard to police coaching that it should just be legal to level the playing field

 

[Damon180]

i think it's so hard to police coaching that it should just be legal to level the playing field

I agree. Every sniper has their spotter. As long as it doesn't interfere with current game play it should be legit. You could branch out on a whole new set of rules as to what to say while matches are being fought, and that would just lead to silliness and quiet time - no fun for anyone .

 

[adumbrodeus]

Interfering in a match should get you thrown out. I was talking to a friend of mine (Ness main) the other day, and he was saying people were going over to his tournament matches and walking his opponents through how to do grab release chaingrabs on Ness. These were people who didn't know about those things otherwise, and he was having to worry about losing matches to worse players because they were getting very powerful advice. It's just not okay; third parties talking shouldn't ever change the outcome of matches in tournament. I don't think it's a widespread problem, but it does come up.

There is of course broad leeway for being loud and getting excited, talking about what is going on, and making witty remarks including useless advice, but the line really should be changing games. If you are so loud it actually is distracting to a reasonable person or if you are giving game changing advice to someone, you should just not be tolerated and the TO needs to do something about you.

Honestly, coaching has become the status quo for every professional sport and furthermore is too difficult to ban to actually create an effective rule against.


In your case, is the advice bad or good? How can you prove that it changed the outcome?


Furthermore, if it is wrong, it's the losing player who was wronged, how do you intend to rectify the situation?


You can always counter with other people coaching you, I don't see any reason to ban it.

 

[Solid Jake]

Coaching rules should be clearly written in the tournament rules of the event. The Mages allow coaching in between matches only. Coaching in the middle of a match results in an immediate loss of match.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Coaching rules should be clearly written in the tournament rules of the event. The Mages allow coaching in between matches only. Coaching in the middle of a match results in an immediate loss of match.

What if someone gives you tips during a match without your consent?

 

[Jam Stunna]

I agree with adumbrodeus and pockyd. Every other sport allows for coaching, even during the contest. And where would you draw the line for enforcement? Would asking a friend about a good counterpick stage be an acceptable form of coaching?

I say allow it, even during matches.

 

[Solid Jake]

What if someone gives you tips during a match without your consent?

Yeah thats the grey area, basically if youre given coaching without consent it should be given as a warning. If it continues then loss of set. Never interrupt a match due to coaching that is for sure, always address the issue once the match has completed.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yeah thats the grey area, basically if youre given coaching without consent it should be given as a warning. If it continues then loss of set. Never interrupt a match due to coaching that is for sure, always address the issue once the match has completed.

Won't that open up the possibility of people purposefully getting others DQ'd?

 

[Solid Jake]

Won't that open up the possibility of people purposefully getting others DQ'd?

People aren't really that.. evil... This is how we have done it for 4 years and there has not once been an issue

 

[pockyD]

yeah it's one of those imaginary rules like "no wobbling" or "no stalling"

 

[xbombr]

lol wobbling and stalling rules.

No coaching is even more janky. How do you even know the advice the person is giving is any good?

If you can't adapt to new things they're doing anyway, then you probably deserve to lose.

 

[Tesh]

Having a coach for your basketball or football team is not the same as having a coach for a 1v1 fight. I'm not suggesting there is no mental aspect to sports, but there is a big difference.

In a physical sport, execution and endurance are a very big deal. Brawl isn't very technical. Most of what you have to do to win is reading your opponent. Once you accomplish that, timing and execution aren't extremely difficult.

Would you like to have play chess against someone and lose because Bobby Fischer was leaning over his shoulder, giving him tips?

I wonder if games like Starcraft allow this sort of thing.

You probably can't punish people for being coached, but even trying to penalize people for coaching wouldn't work unless you stop everyone from talking. We might as well accept it and encourage everyone to get a coach.

 

[Rain(ame)]

You know...the initial idea of this was stated in the OP. He said in between game 2 and 3. Which means that's legit coaching which honestly has nothing to do with affecting the during match play. It's no different from a boxing match where they get coached in between rounds. It's up to them to apply what they're being told. It's up to you to not rely on something if it's not working anymore. Gimmicks are just that. Once it's seen through...what are you going to do then?

As far as walking someone through in the middle of a match...eh....it's a grey area, but I'd say allow it only to a degree.

Telling them a quick tactic....fine. "Chaingrab with the Down throw!!!" or "Stop standing still so much!!!" Things like that are going to happen regardless. People scream in crowds.

Telling them what to do every step of the match...no. Not in tournament. At least not DURING a match. "Okay so what you want to do is just dash dance and bait it. Shield grab...now down throw. he's teching to the right, go!! okay jab jab downthrow...." I've never seen anyone do that, though....not in a tournament match.

You can't help the crowd screaming. It's going to happen....period. People get hype and since this isn't Golf, poker, Chess, or Baseball, you're going to hear all the hype to go with it. no matter what. (baseball can get loud in tight situations.) Just my two cents.

 

[-Ran]

As others have said, it's too hard to prevent and so you might as well make it legal. My view is that as long as coaching is done inbetween matches, akin to a fighter's corner in a boxing match, then it's fine.

 

[jugfingers]

its not like someone's gonna be like bishop to g7 mate.

no coaching johns you babies.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Guys, without it, Mango would've lost to Armada. True fact.

(lol not really, but HugS *****)

 

[L__]

Just because someone coaches during the game doesn't mean the person playing is gonna be able to execute what is said.

Also,

You know...the initial idea of this was stated in the OP. He said in between game 2 and 3. Which means that's legit coaching which honestly has nothing to do with affecting the during match play. It's no different from a boxing match where they get coached in between rounds. It's up to them to apply what they're being told. It's up to you to not rely on something if it's not working anymore. Gimmicks are just that. Once it's seen through...what are you going to do then?

As far as walking someone through in the middle of a match...eh....it's a grey area, but I'd say allow it only to a degree.

Telling them a quick tactic....fine. "Chaingrab with the Down throw!!!" or "Stop standing still so much!!!" Things like that are going to happen regardless. People scream in crowds.

Telling them what to do every step of the match...no. Not in tournament. At least not DURING a match. "Okay so what you want to do is just dash dance and bait it. Shield grab...now down throw. he's teching to the right, go!! okay jab jab downthrow...." I've never seen anyone do that, though....not in a tournament match.

You can't help the crowd screaming. It's going to happen....period. People get hype and since this isn't Golf, poker, Chess, or Baseball, you're going to hear all the hype to go with it. no matter what. (baseball can get loud in tight situations.) Just my two cents.

QFE

 

[adumbrodeus]

People aren't really that.. evil... This is how we have done it for 4 years and there has not once been an issue

Yes they are, they definitely are.


Any rule that would allow people to get DQ'd for other people's actions is an incredibly bad idea and should never be a rule.

 

[Jam Stunna]

You know...the initial idea of this was stated in the OP. He said in between game 2 and 3. Which means that's legit coaching which honestly has nothing to do with affecting the during match play. It's no different from a boxing match where they get coached in between rounds. It's up to them to apply what they're being told. It's up to you to not rely on something if it's not working anymore. Gimmicks are just that. Once it's seen through...what are you going to do then?

As far as walking someone through in the middle of a match...eh....it's a grey area, but I'd say allow it only to a degree.

Telling them a quick tactic....fine. "Chaingrab with the Down throw!!!" or "Stop standing still so much!!!" Things like that are going to happen regardless. People scream in crowds.

Telling them what to do every step of the match...no. Not in tournament. At least not DURING a match. "Okay so what you want to do is just dash dance and bait it. Shield grab...now down throw. he's teching to the right, go!! okay jab jab downthrow...." I've never seen anyone do that, though....not in a tournament match.

You can't help the crowd screaming. It's going to happen....period. People get hype and since this isn't Golf, poker, Chess, or Baseball, you're going to hear all the hype to go with it. no matter what. (baseball can get loud in tight situations.) Just my two cents.

How could you possibly enforce that?

Also, managers yell things to boxers during the rounds.They're constantly coaching.

 

[Mota]

Coaching is fine, but should be kept between rounds.

Although, even if people coach in a game, the player being coached has to concentrate on what their coach is saying and then immediately attempt to incorporate it into the game, which may or may not work. Enforcing a no coaching rule would be extremely difficult.

The example with the Ness grab release is kinda meh, everyone should know about it by now.

 

[VGmasta]

Yea, this happened to me one tournament. I was winning a set. Then his friend told him to switch to a different character and I ended up not winning. I don't mind the coaching now that I've pretty much become immune to it. Time and time again I've been up against people where the crowd is cheering for them and no one for me. As long as there's no crowd taunting me, then I guess I don't mind too much.

And yeah coaching would be hard to enforce. It would have to be a NO COACHING OR BE DISQUALIFIED kind of rule. But there should definitely be like a no taunting rule or something. That causes a bunch of unneccessary trouble in and outside the tournament matches.

 

[1048576]

No rude heckling unless your opponent is Jigglypuff.

There's nothing wrong with coaching. Lots of people involved in 1v1 competitions have coaches, and certainly there's enough tech skill in smash and enough mental skill that can't be communicated ("hey he's going right. Punish it." Well derp I guess I'm going left then) that having M2K as your coach won't make you win tournies.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Analyzing your opponents weaknesses and your own is part of Smash. If you need someone else to do it, you should be Frowned upon.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Analyzing your opponents weaknesses and your own is part of Smash. If you need someone else to do it, you should be Frowned upon.

I disagree. Sometimes, you just miss really simple things that someone from a different perspective can point out.

 

[CT Chia]

I've never had a problem with coaching. As long as it's not disruptive to the opponent, then it's fine by me. Not all coaching can be like it is in the OP. For instance, if I wanna time someone out, I might like to have a coach just calm me down during the match and remind me to play safe and camp so I don't get antsy and aggressive.

 

[Hax]

talking sh*t/coaching is one of the funnest parts of smash

 

[ZoSo]

Pretty dumb when it changes the outcome of matches, but impossible to enforce.

 

[Flayl]

There's a way to enforce a ban on 1-on-1 coaching, but you can only use it for finals. Basically you "clear the stage" and make it so the 2 players and a TO are the only ones allowed in the area during the set.

Not as good as RTS "cabinets" but honestly at big events this is what should be done (example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRSpiUC1fEE&#t=04m12s - obviously not as spacy)

 

[Solid Jake]

Yeah.. As many have said the big issue with coaching rules, is actually enforcing it. Places where it may be doable are pools (maybe by pool leaders) and towards the end of the bracket TO's should be free enough to "referee" the matches.

 

[Rain(ame)]

How could you possibly enforce that?

Also, managers yell things to boxers during the rounds.They're constantly coaching.

lol, only thing I'd enforce is the one example of back/side seat playing.

You can't control screaming. People are going to get hyped up in the middle of matches. It's up to the player if they want to accept that advice, lol. (It's not always good. Kind of like screaming to the opponent in basketball to pass to you. You know they'll do it if they're not paying attention. God I love basketball.)

Hope that answered you question. ^_^

 

[Cactuar]

Coaching is actually something I've been meaning to address for a long time. Thank you for the reminder.

 

[Solid Jake]

*waits for cactuars opinion on the matter*

 

[KevinM]

Still agree with Pocky's position and think it should just be allowed.

 

[Solid Jake]

I'll be honest. I'm leaning towards the allowed end of things the more I think about it.