Top-Down Evaluation: Is Lucas Good?

[Doctor X]

So, uhm... Hi. I'm a longtime smashboards lurker that's eager to contribute to the Project M community. I see Project M as one of the most exciting things in competitive gaming because while I love smash, I dislike Nintendo's ambivalence to the competitive community.

Lately I've been doing an lot of thinking about how our understanding of Melee and the characters in it developed mostly as trial and error. It was difficult to really assess which characters were "good" when we had relatively little understanding of what "good" actually was. In order to fully comprehend a character we were required not only to play that character a bunch, but also to wait for the metagame to develop the things that might change our views of the character. Strong edge play, when people finally figured it out, drastically changed our perception of characters like Falco and Captain Falcon, for example, and helped us to see more advantages in characters like Peach and Jigglypuff.

Project M gives us an opportunity to do something we've never done before. Now that we have a very well-established framework of what is "good" and what is "bad," we are presented with characters that are almost entirely unknown, and in order to aid the development process we must decide whether or not they are truly able to compete.

If we ever hope to have a definitive "final release" of Project M from the PMBR, though, the community cannot take the same trial-and-error approach. Surely we can't say, "Ok wait like two or three years, guys, then maybe someone will figure out whether or not Lucas is good." We need a more efficient approach or we'll be looking at Smash 5 being out and usable Wiis being long gone from Gamestops and Ebay by the time this thing is done.

So... I'd like to propose a more formalized way of evaluating characters that utilizes the knowledge that we've gained from Melee's long history. We'll call this approach a "top-down" evaluation because it involves using a number of surface-level assumptions to guide our efforts. Instead of working from the ground up-- assuming we know nothing at all and trying to piece together a picture of the character through pure trial-and-error, we take a quick look at the character and replace the immensely broad question of "Is this character good?" with a few more specific questions based on our knowledge of Melee, such as "Is their ability to control the match good enough to offset their bad recovery?" We then dedicate our time towards answering those simple questions, and based on those answers we will know whether or not a character is good. We don't need 5+ years of tournament results for proof; we know enough about Melee at this point to know that characters with a bad recovery need some reliable way of preventing the other guy from throwing them off the stage in order to remain competitive.

I'm going to start with Lucas since he's not only new, but he's also a lot of fun to play and has a few obvious and potentially fatal weaknesses. I'd hate to see this fun character wind up in the bottom tier of a final release, so I want to explore him a bunch while he still has the potential to be changed.

-

So, let's begin by taking our quick look at Lucas and finding out the best questions to ask. I feel like the best questions will always be those that identify strengths and weaknesses, so let's look at those. While we could list all kinds of both, let's try to keep it simple and broad, and only based on things that we know for certain. In fact, I'll only list one of each-- the single "defining" strength or weakness to start our thought process along.

Defining Strength:
-Lucas's smash attacks are very strong and come out rather quickly. With some technical skill you can combo into them for early kills, especially with his PK Offense Up active.

Defining Weakness:
-Lucas is very vulnerable when forced off the stage. Yes, he can recover from a surprising distance using his psi-magnet tricks and his rope snake out of an airdodge, but the rope snake is vulnerable to edgeguarding, particularly to moves that can reach below the stage like Marth's dtilt and Bowser's... like, everything. Similarly problematic, the PK-thunder 2 gives your opponent more than a full second to react to where you've chosen to initiate the up-B, so if you try to sweetspot with it you can expect to be edgehogged every single time.

So, placing these two items in the context of Melee... We can look at characters with similar strengths and weaknesses, and then based on our knowledge of those characters-- what allowed them to succeed in spite of this weakness, and what held them back in spite of this strength-- we can judge Lucas more effectively.

-

Since it's easier, I'll begin with Lucas's defining weakness. He's very vulnerable off-stage. We know of many characters like this in Melee. Some were great, others not so much.

Falco is rightly regarded as a very strong character in spite of this glaring weakness-- which was even worse in his case than it is for Lucas. Falco's quick fall speed combined with his short, single-hitbox up-B made him one of the most gimpable characters in the entire game. Even very high-level play would commonly see Falcos getting sent off the stage and destroyed at low percents, but still he was considered a top-tier character.

Why? Well, the PM devs already explained it fairly well-- Falco's lasers, shine, and general speed give him an immense amount of control over his opponent while he's on the stage. It's ok that Falco dies off-stage because a properly-played Falco is very difficult to even force off the stage in the first place.

Conversely, Ganondorf is not regarded as a very strong character, mostly as result of this glaring weakness. Ganondorf's recovery is telegraphed, can be beaten by most aerials, and cannot truly be sweetspotted because his head must peek up above the ledge before he can grab it. While I believe this third problem was removed from PM Ganondorf, it was fairly major in holding the charactetr back in Melee, and although Ganondorf still had a recovery that was arguably better than Falco's, he still wasn't considered viable in tournaments.

What was he missing? Well... Ganondorf had no ability to control his opponent. His play was very reactionary and involved responding to his opponent's actions rather than forcing any kind of confrontation. As a result, characters who wanted to force Ganondorf off of the edge had only to play near the edge. Unlike Falco who could spam lasers to force an approach, Ganon was powerless against this type of play and would often be forced off and killed with shine spikes, dtilts, needles, and so on.

A sort of midrange between these guys is Captain Falcon, who has the same recovery problems as Ganondorf , but was considered more viable. Why? Well... Falcon was very, very fast to approach. This helped him deal a little better with play near the edge because the guy near the edge could rarely know exactly when Falcon was coming in and often had very little time to react. Falcon may not have been able to choose where confrontation occurred, but he had a much better chance of winning that confrontation than Ganondorf did. This helped him quite a bit, but it still didn't put him in the top tier by any means.

All of this leaves us with two known ways to make up for Lucas's vulnerability off-stage:

-Control-- i.e. the ability to force confrontation at the place of your choosing.
-Approach-- i.e. the ability to win a confrontation at a place of your opponent's choosing. Falco had some of this too, btw, but let's not turn this too much into a Falco thread.

We know that "Control" is much better than "Approach" based on Falco's dominance in Melee's scene, but as we've noted, both of them do help somewhat. Both of them can make being forced off of the stage less likely, which means you might not have to get spiked out of your rope snake all day.

Now, let's put together a plan of action. Our goal is to answer the following question:

"Are Lucas's control and approach capabilities good enough to make up for his offstage vulnerabilities?"

If no, Lucas is bad, sad as that might be to say. Maybe the PMBR will help him with some updates.
If yes, he might be still be good, and we need more investigation.

How do we get ourselves an answer to this question? Well, let's play a bunch of matches where we ask our opponent to play near the edge as much as possible. Let's experiment specifically with throwing PK freezes in the style of Falco to see if we can force a confrontation. Let's try sudden approaches-- if we can find any-- that can surprise our opponent or in some way shut down his ability to force us off-stage. A lot of this may be stuff people are already doing, of course, as long-time Melee players have a sort of intuitive sense for this kind of thing. Let's focus however, instead of worrying about more ground-up, detail-driven things like matchups.

I'm happy to say I'll be making progress on this whether I want to or not, since my main practice partner is Overswarm, and standing around near the edge is basically his thing.

-

Our second bit of analysis comes from Lucas's "defining strength:" His kill moves and his ability to combo into those kill moves. This one will take a bit of a different approach. Instead of talking about characters that had this strength in general, we'll talk about a character that was a victim of this strength by most of Melee's cast, and how weaknesses in most of Melee's cast prevented this strength from being nearly as important as it might have otherwise been. We're of course talking about Fox.

Fox is probably the most well-known character in all of Melee. Nobody played any character with any degree of success without knowing the Fox matchup, not only because he was popular but also because how how dominant he could be if you didn't know exactly how to punish what few openings a well-played Fox will present.

Fox was widely considered to be the best character in the game, which is interesting because he's also one of the most combo-able characters in the game. Many lower-tier characters have the potential to kill Fox out of a single grab at various percents, in the same way that Lucas has the potential to kill many of PM's characters out of certain moves. However, Fox was still dominant. Fox still didn't generally lose to Mario, DK, or Mewtwo, despite their ability to kill Fox with crazy combos, and Fox still was considered a good pick against chaingrab and techchase monsters like Marth and Sheik.

Why? Well... as neat as all this stuff you could do against Fox was, you had to actually hit Fox with an applicable move in order to do any of it. This was far easier said than done because of Fox's fast, high-priority aerials and frame-one down-B hitbox. In order to get his zero-to-death shenanigans to work, DK had to actually grab Fox, and unless Fox made an amateur mistake DK would rarely ever get this necessary grab to connect.

So, let's formulate this into another relatively simple question, assuming the rest of the cast is like our Fox. We can combo them to death if we land certain moves, but...

"Can Lucas reliably start these flashy combos without needing the opponent to make an amateur mistake?"

If no, Lucas's defining strength is null, and thus, Lucas is bad. Maybe they'll increase PSI-magnet's hitbox or something.
If yes, well... I think that at least puts him in high tier, assuming we don't have a "no" to the first "simple question" we noted above.

What's our plan of action? Well... Let's keep discovering those combos whenever we can, because they are neat and might potentially lead us to discover more "applicable moves" to be our combo-starters. However, let us not place too much emphasis on a combo if we require our opponent to play poorly in order to land the first hit.

For example, it is really neat that you can wavedash backwards out of a Psi-magnet for an upsmash kill, but if the PSI-magnet isn't any more "applicable" than a straight upsmash, then you may as well just used the upsmash and get the same result. All the PSI-magnet does in this case is add a few percents and help you with your super-cool-guy impression.

I'm not saying that the PSI-magnet isn't easier to land than a straight upsmash, but I hope you get the point-- If you can't reliably land a grounded PSI-magnet, then this simple combo is useless. Again, this is something that most people should already know, but let's focus on it. Identify Lucas's best combo-starters and experiment with them heavily, even if you may or may not have the combo down entirely yet. It won't win you any matches if you can't do the combos, but it will tell us a lot more about whether or not it's even worth practicing this crazy technical stuff that you may or may not every be applied in a high-stakes tournament match.

-

tl;dr: Lucas is a very flashy and fun character, full of new things to be discovered most likely, but let's not be diverted too much. Ness had his yo-yo glitch in Melee, probably the flashiest thing you could possibly do in that game, but did that make it something worth practicing? Not all. So let's answer these two simple questions:

-Are Lucas's control and approach capabilities good enough to make up for his offstage vulnerabilities?
-Can Lucas reliably start these flashy combos without needing the opponent to make an amateur mistake?

 

[No U]

I read... most of that, and for what it's worth, I think Lucas' control and approach options are only slightly worse than falcos (laser and shine are reasonably superior to pkf and magnet. magnet isn't even that much of an approach option as much as a mindgame honestly because it's slower than dtilt and similar speed to a lot of moves with more range/aerials), but his offstage vulnerability is slightly less dramatic than Falco's especially since he can recover very far on stages that give him the space to di into the corner and magnet stall his way back. As such, I feel his control and combo power do make up for this vulnerability.

And as far as the second question, yes, it shouldn't be too difficult of a problem to start the flashy combos you need to get to kill people. Any time you hit with a pkf it can be followed up depending on your opponent's weight/di with dacus or grab or fair, any of which can kill, continue a combo, or force an opponent offstage at the right %s. There are certain characters that are definitely more difficult to start combos on, mostly characters that can easily avoid/outprioritize pkf (peach jiggs rob for avoid, falco wolf mario etc for priority/better projectiles). But even without hitting pkfs consistently like you can on power characters, between Lucas' quick aerials and djc mindgames and quick speed and ability to waveland around platforms all over, it shouldn't require a totally 'amateur' mistake to get something started, like the sort of tech error that gets a spacie grabbed by dk.

 

[Master WGS]

I still think Lucas is one of the strongest characters in the game. I would put him in a very exclusive club that I consider "on par with Melee top-tier." It's exclusive because it's him, Diddy, and Mario.

He has weaknesses for sure, but I think his strengths far outweigh them. Imagine Falco with slightly less stage control and no true spike, but with better recovery and phenomenal on-stage kill power.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I would argue that Lucas' recovery is not better than Falco's...

I mean, Falco's recovery is notoriously short, but he can recover pretty safely in most situations, and he has enough ability to mix it up that a smart player can pretty reliably return to the stage.

Lucas' recovery can go further, but it's significantly less safe in a lot of ways. I'd say his recovery is worse, for this reason. On par at best... He can stall and whatnot, but when he actually lands onstage, he lags so much.

 

[G13_Flux]

pk freeze and shine might not quite live up to falcos versions of them, but lucas has significantly better mobility options, and with his DJC, he still has very safe shield pressure options that can easily compare to falcos SHFFL. lucas also has easily comparable range on all attacks, plus several attacks that have significantly more range. he also can kill much better from onstage, and is not dependent on killing off the stage. (falco is almost entirely dependent on offstage kills, save for his occasional fsmash, and star KOs if hes on YI). i would agree that lucas will be at least in the PM high teir. i would personally consider him somewhere within the top 10, along with a few other newcombers like wolf, diddy, ZSS, and squirtle.

 

[No U]

eh, pretty much any time falco gets knocked off stage he should be dead against a lot of the cast. Lucas should get back at least 50% of the time imo.

that being said, the fact that his tether will not knock people off the edge is really really rough (though still his best option), and Lucas will probably get punished/killed 80% of the time you have to actually use pkt2 unless you angle/mindgame/sweetspot with it like mad.

 

[Doctor X]

Edit: The discussion of whether Lucas's recovery is better or worse than Falco's is not entirely applicable here. As noted, Ganon's recovery might be regarded as slightly better than Falco's but that still doesn't stop him from being killed a good portion of the times he's sent off stage. That is really the purpose of this thread, as long-winded as it has been. I want to establish what Lucas players should really be talking about based on what we know about Melee. We know Lucas's recovery is a problem that will hold him back competitively. The question isn't whether or not he has it worse than Falco because we know it's a major problem regardless; rather, the question is whether or not Lucas has the tools needed to excel in spite of this problem.

That being said...

-

I've been playing a lot of matches with OS as I noted in the original post. I've noticed that the shortened range of DJC pkf can be a huge liability that Falco's SHL doesn't have to deal with. Also unlike lasers, the pkf can be attacked through with many aerials.

This seems obvious but I think it makes a much larger difference than many of us might realize. The first bit requires you to be within a relatively punishable distance if you want to pressure someone who is standing near the edge. The second bit enables them to do a quick shffl'ed aerial through your pkf. This isn't quite as dangerous as getting grabbed and back-thrown off the stage, but it's not nearly as safe as Falco's control options.

I hope to have videos up of this before too long. My current work schedule makes focus on this stuff fairly difficult to arrange but hopefully that will change in the future...

 

[DoubleAgentXies616]

Well, after reading that I'm happy to know somebody actually proposes something to improve PM for everyone.
Not me, I'm just a casual PM player, but I still wanna give my opinion to whoever wants to read it. And I'll answer the poster's first question:

"Are Lucas's control and approach capabilities good enough to make up for his offstage vulnerabilities?"

I do believe they are, I'll explain later.
He's got other strenghts, Down Special is great for comboing, so is the jab, and his aerials are fast.

"Can Lucas reliably start these flashy combos without needing the opponent to make an amateur mistake?"

Slow as PK freeze may come out, it's still a good way to put pressure on your oponent, it wouldn't be up to an amateur mistake on their part if Lucas managed to approach right after the freeze struck, because all you need to start the combo is one time you hit them, then friggin run to where they are, and enjoy.
Plus, it can also be used for finish, let's say you have 50-60% damage, and you can't approach Lucas, then one of his Pk freezes hits you, all he needs to do is run and do one of those HUGE up-smashes to kill you, it's a low percentage and it has happened to me SO, MANY, DARN, TIMES, it's annoying.
But again, I'm no experto, so my struggling against Lucas may indeed be amateur mistakes.

 

[Doctor X]

Well, guys, I think I've come to a personal decision, unless someone can enlighten me.

PKF is a move with some very damning limitations. As powerful as it seems at first, it loses its luster when your opponent realizes a few key things about it:

1. You cannot throw it at very short notice. DJCing too close to the ground stops the move before the projectile comes out, so unlike Falco's SHL there's a whole lot of warning before you do it.
2. It cannot go through any hitbox like... at all. Fox's up-B beats it. Bowser's flames beat it.
3. It does not reach very far and often times you can simply run away from it. Bowser's flames out-range it.

You put these things together and a smart opponent should very rarely be hit by this move unless you're able to bait an opening or create one by hitting with another move. Specific to one matchup, I've noticed that Bowser's flames are very, very difficult to deal with if you want to spam DJC pkf's. Being in range to hit Bowser with your pkf means that you will be in range of his flames, and Bowser has almost no reason not to start his flames the moment Lucas leaves the ground. The flames beat the projectile and reach Lucas easily, forcing him to shield or take some damage. If you haven't had the opportunity to play against a really good Bowser, take my word for it: this really, really sucks. A lot. I foresee issues like this with many other characters, as well, though I haven't explored those quite as much.

Unless someone can come up with a better answer to my two questions than DJC PKF, I'm pretty sure Lucas is doomed to low-tier at best. It simply doesn't compare to Falco's lasers for question one, and I don't think hitting with it is reliable enough for question two.

Also, I'd like to add something unrelated but incredibly nasty. Due to low traction, Fox can hit Lucas with a shine close to midstage and force him below the ledge at any percent. Guaranteed. Unlike Melee characters who I know could hold towards the stage to auto-grab the ledge in this situation, nothing Lucas does will prevent him from sliding off to a point just below the ledge without grabbing it. Fox can and will kill you with another shine from this point and it seems like there is very little Lucas can do to prevent it. Getting killed this easily by a popular character like Fox seems like a deal-breaker... I think that more than anything makes me hesitant to continue practicing with this guy.

Anybody have any thoughts? Ideas? Videos to prove me wrong? Share them. OS and I recorded a bunch of friendlies earlier tonight and I hope he'll have those uploaded soon.

 

[Ishiey]

On PKF: Agreed on the limitations, although I don't think it's *quite* as bad as you make it seem. Then again, I've never played against a good Bowser :x that's crazy, if his flames really outrange PKF. Overall, I feel like the move is only good when your opponent messes something up. I'm starting to use the move less and less because it's just too slow... however, I find that mixing it up between PKF and approaching (with zair probably, since it has the best range) works decently well since our approaches are quick enough to beat the typically slower anti-PKF options (or start some good shield pressure). So, not a useless move, but very limited. What do you think should be done to improve the move and make it less limited, but still reasonable for an opponent with MU knowledge/experience to deal with ?

On Fox shining us: Yes. It's not okay, at all. But tbh I think that's more of an issue with Fox than it is with Lucas.

Looking forward to the videos of you and OS.

 

[Doctor X]

On PKF: Agreed on the limitations, although I don't think it's *quite* as bad as you make it seem. Then again, I've never played against a good Bowser :x that's crazy, if his flames really outrange PKF. Overall, I feel like the move is only good when your opponent messes something up. I'm starting to use the move less and less because it's just too slow... however, I find that mixing it up between PKF and approaching (with zair probably, since it has the best range) works decently well since our approaches are quick enough to beat the typically slower anti-PKF options (or start some good shield pressure). So, not a useless move, but very limited. What do you think should be done to improve the move and make it less limited, but still reasonable for an opponent with MU knowledge/experience to deal with ?

Any one of three options would make it better. You make it come out faster to speed up the DJC process, you remove its hurtbox to make it behave like a laser and go through everything, or you make it reach further.

I'm not yet entirely sure if making it better will be necessary for Lucas to be viable, but it will certainly be necessary if we want to use PKF like Falco's lasers. Without something like Falco's lasers, as mentioned, I feel very vulnerable with this character. Keeping yourself on the stage is much harder than it is for Falco, and I feel just as dead once I'm off stage as I would be with Falco.

By no means do I claim to be the best Lucas or even a good Lucas, so it could be that I'm missing something critical. I know my use of DJC aerials for shield pressure is going to take a lot of work to get up to snuff, but I worry if this work will in the end be worth it when long-standing knowledge of Melee tells me this character is going to have major problems.

I'm open to suggestions, as that was the purpose of this thread. PKF is not the answer, though.

On Fox shining us: Yes. It's not okay, at all. But tbh I think that's more of an issue with Fox than it is with Lucas.

Fox is not going to change. We know that much, because the PMBR and most of the smash community likes Fox just the way he is. If our character has an unwinnable matchup against he most commonly-played Melee character then we're definitely not going to win any tournaments without switching to someone else. Maybe they could add back in the ability to auto-grab the ledge when shined. It's not optimal, but it's better than dying at like zero percent.

Looking forward to the videos of you and OS.

Lol don't expect too much. You'll get to see some examples of flames beating PKF and Fox murdering the hell out of me on small, flat stages with the aforementioned trick. Overall sloppy play on both of our parts, though. More practice is needed. >.<

 

[Ishiey]

But out of the three, which one do you feel would be the fairest balance? Personally, I don't think it would be fair if we could use PKF like Falco's lasers lol, that's a bit too much considering the reward when we land a hit. Decreasing the start-up a tad would probably be my first choice.

If you feel like you're missing something, you should try using more grab imo, because dthrow is godlike for comboing into juggles. Seriously, our dashgrab and pivot grab linger like crazy, make the most of it.

Idk, I doubt Fox will change but if there's a good enough argument showing that he messes up a lot of the cast, it would logically make sense to change him instead of tweak 15 other characters. Unlikely, but I don't want to call it impossible. The auto-grab suggestion would be nice though.


As for whether or not Lucas can compete at top level, I think it's a small stretch atm. The main things holding him back are both the ease with which he is comboed and the ease with which he is edgeguarded. A few small improvements in each of those categories, however, could make Lucas into an extremely viable tournament threat. My only question is, what would do the trick? Invincibility when reeling in from tether? UpB having the ability to clank with attacks? A faster combo breaker? Slower fall speed so he's harder to combo?

 

[tripwire]

I don't think id care if Lucas has a Falco type Pkf if it stunned like his lasers. And his lack of invincibility when reeling or w/e his problem is def needs to be fixed. If only his Offense up could also some how effect his body when doing PK thunder. Like create some type of aura similar to Fox's Up-B

 

[Magus420]

You can fastfall and have air mobility after sliding off the stage from a shine or similar knockback. Pretty sure the fastfall lets any character grab the edge when done right (tap and quickly release down right as you slip off), even when shined close to the edge.


Edit:

Tried it and works with Lucas in this game just as close to the edge as shown there (minus the waveshining part).

 

[Overswarm]

We'll have to try that.


From what I've seen of Lucas (I've played 3 different Lucas players now), it's either a case of his recovery being too bad or his on-stage presence not being good enough. Lucas has some great combos out of nair, down+b, grab, over-b setups, or dash attack, and that's a lot of options. Unfortunately none of them are particularly good or even different from one another. The only one that doesn't involve Lucas running at you and spacing something is the over-b, which is telegraphed to hell.

If I were looking to "fix" Lucas to make him more viable, simply having a longer up+b distance and a bigger up+b hitbox might be enough. He wouldn't be "good" without some upgrades to his on-stage game, but he at least wouldn't be totally hopeless. Currently if Lucas is below the stage he should be dead.

 

[Burnsy]

Lucas has some great combos out of nair, down+b, grab, over-b setups, or dash attack, and that's a lot of options. Unfortunately none of them are particularly good or even different from one another.

He has a lot more moves that can combo than that. I also don't really understand what makes you think his moves aren't different than one another. If you say none of these moves are good, would you please explain what makes them bad?

I also wouldn't mind seeing some footage of your Lucas to see where you and Dr. X are coming from with these concerns. I checked out the videos of Dr. X's Lucas from February and he seemed pretty new to the character, and the playstyle is honestly a little sluggish and it left me scratching my head on a few move choices, especially when following up in combos...

 

[Doctor X]

I also wouldn't mind seeing some footage of your Lucas to see where you and Dr. X are coming from with these concerns. I checked out the videos of Dr. X's Lucas from February and he seemed pretty new to the character, and the playstyle is honestly a little sluggish and it left me scratching my head on a few move choices, especially when following up in combos...

This is what concerns me. People have this mistaken assumption that a person needs to actually play the absolute peak of a character's capability in order to understand that character's flaws. I think it arises from an unwillingness to accept those flaws. You see someone being critical of your character and the natural inclination is to want them to be wrong, and obviously if they don't do this tricky thing that other people do, they must be wrong!

I can tell you that those videos from last month are literally the first time I played the character. I don't know that seeing later videos will change your emotional response all that much, though. You might look at the way I play now and say, "Oh, he should DJC better, and like DACUS and stuff, because those things are hard and he's not doing them," but you can make the same argument for Captain Falcon-- who, if TAS is any indication, can 0-to-death anybody in the entire cast from a single aerial. Yet Falcon players don't need to combo all that well to know that if you're forced offstage as Falcon, you die. Likewise, they don't need to combo all that well to know that Falcon's aerials have relatively low priority and must rely on tricking your opponent to even get a combo going in the first place. These two things hold this guy back, and no matter how well you play him he'll still get wrecked by Falco, Sheik, and Fox. He's just not that good and I don't have to be Darkrain to point this out. I don't even have to play Falcon much at all to point this out.

Think of it this way: Let's say I'm bad with Lucas. This is not just a hypothetical; I know that my play can be improved. I am, however, worried about whether or not getting better with Lucas is even worth the trouble when other characters offer so much more reward for so much less work. My first impression of the character, based on knowledge of Melee and some investigation of his move properties, is that his recovery problems will hold him back, and that what he gets in return is not nearly worth the trade. Your job, if you're truly willing to put some effort into this conversation, is not to tell me to take your word for it and start practicing, but to put forth some concrete examples that might change my mind. Believe me, I'd love to think this character could stay competitive. I think he's a blast to play, but I also don't like losing.

Bear in mind, this is a game where one character has a 1-frame combo starter, has a 6-frame upsmash that kill the entire cast at 90% or less on most stages, and still has a better recovery than Lucas. There's a lot to prove here.

Edit:

You can fastfall and have air mobility after sliding off the stage from a shine or similar knockback. Pretty sure the fastfall lets any character grab the edge when done right (tap and quickly release down right as you slip off), even when shined close to the edge.


Edit:

Tried it and works with Lucas in this game just as close to the edge as shown there (minus the waveshining part).

This is exactly the kind of concrete example that we need. Thank you, Magus.

 

[Burnsy]

Sure, you say you know his flaws, but that isn't enough to determine him as good or bad. As you said yourself, its about whether or not his on-stage offense can make up for this weakness. And in my opinion, to know how well he can do this requires you to put work into the character.​

​

As I also said in my earlier post, I don't really feel like he has too many problems tapping into his combo game so long as he is constantly looking for situations to apply pressure. Still, not dropping combos is critical to winning with Lucas, and yet I feel that most of his moves are extremely combo friendly and a typical well executed string can be in the upwards of 60% or more. What sort of 'concrete examples' of this would you like? I don't own my own recording set-up unfortunately

I don't really disagree with you when you say he is very vulnerable offstage, except that I think you are underestimating his ability to mix his recovery up using down-b, up-b angling, tether regrab reps, and even using multiple airdodge abuse from tether cancels to avoid gimps when tethering.

Similarly problematic, the PK-thunder 2 gives your opponent more than a full second to react to where you've chosen to initiate the up-B, so if you try to sweetspot with it you can expect to be edgehogged every single time.

Lucas' PKT1 lasts super long. I think if you play around with where you start it at and how you curl the projectile around, you can use it to bait the edgehog (in anticipation), then instead of firing at a sweetspot angle, shoot yourself on stage.

I'm not saying that the PSI-magnet isn't easier to land than a straight upsmash, but I hope you get the point-- If you can't reliably land a grounded PSI-magnet, then this simple combo is useless.

Who approaches with a grounded magnet? That move is either comboed into, short hopped, or used as a punish. It's pretty fast, so it's not really that hard to land in a string. And why does the combo have to be simple?

This is the kind of thing that makes me say you need to play this character more and worry about how he stacks up against the rest of the cast later. Like it or not, a lot of your impressions of the character are going to come from your personal experiences. As you said, you "don't like losing". I think that is going to somewhat affect how you feel about the character. When I lose with Lucas, I think about all of the things that I did wrong that I could have done right. If I do everything right (or at least my definition of what is "good" for a Lucas), then I usually win. It's not Lucas' fault if I can't get combos started because I know that he has the capability to get in.

 

[Overswarm]

Do you have any videos of your Lucas, Burnsey?

Also grounded down+b has been one of the only reliable approaches I haven't been able to completely stuff with Bowser when I see it coming. Run up, down+b, wavedash back. If it hits I get comboed, if it doesn't I can't catch him with an up+b if he spaces it properly.

 

[Burnsy]

Do you have any videos of your Lucas, Burnsey?

Also grounded down+b has been one of the only reliable approaches I haven't been able to completely stuff with Bowser when I see it coming. Run up, down+b, wavedash back. If it hits I get comboed, if it doesn't I can't catch him with an up+b if he spaces it properly.

Bowser is one of the few characters that I will do this to. Still, I think I would feel more comfortable short hopping a magnet at him and then wd'ing back once I land or are close to the ground. I'll try it though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGKc5K77XCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfi9O6RnEYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcrW1M4iPXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJv3g1yt6bU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAmddMPuNU

 

[Overswarm]

Still think Lucas is bad. None of your opponents really abused over-b's negative aspects and you weren't really edgeguarded. You can watch in these matches both Fox and Bowser ignore the over-b a few times (deliberately so) and just break it or shield it with no punishment.

Fox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKuArN87Z60&list=UU6MAzh8WMiiwppNthZ4NPIA&index=5

Bowser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wMAcmlGjw4&list=UU6MAzh8WMiiwppNthZ4NPIA&index=8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtHD3t9kQX0&list=UU6MAzh8WMiiwppNthZ4NPIA&index=6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFIyvetTtsI&list=UU6MAzh8WMiiwppNthZ4NPIA&index=2


Currently the most tournament successful Lucas if fZk (from my last update) who, from videos I see on youtube, doesn't seem to be doing much different. There's barely any difference between you, him, and Dr.X. A bit of a speed difference, few different choices, but the bread and butter combos are the same.

 

[Tuvillo]

I've seen JCaesar play an amazing Lucas on a livestream before. I'm not sure exactly WHAT he did differently, though...

 

[Burnsy]

Still think Lucas is bad. None of your opponents really abused over-b's negative aspects and you weren't really edgeguarded. You can watch in these matches both Fox and Bowser ignore the over-b a few times (deliberately so) and just break it or shield it with no punishment.

Currently the most tournament successful Lucas if fZk (from my last update) who, from videos I see on youtube, doesn't seem to be doing much different. There's barely any difference between you, him, and Dr.X. A bit of a speed difference, few different choices, but the bread and butter combos are the same.

Here's the thing, I don't consider myself to be a particularly good Lucas either. I don't think anyone is playing this kid at anywhere near his potential. Just as my opponents made many mistakes that let me live, I also made many mistakes and I know Lucas can perform far better than I or anyone has shown.

I also strongly disagree that I play anything like Dr. X. That Fox match for example was horrific, and that's not entirely Lucas fault. The Bowser matches weren't all that great either. Many execution errors, bad decisions, and worst: combo drops out the ass. I can't speak for F2K as I don't know him as a player and how experienced he is, and also have not seen any videos of his play.

The tournament result approach may have worked for Brawl, but I assume sample sizes were much better compared to Project M, which is still in it's early demo phases and has a much smaller player base. I'm a pretty new player to smash games, so give me a couple more months and I'll win some tournaments for you, OS.

 

[Overswarm]

Burnsy, you're making the assumption that dropping combos and having execution errors is the only thing stopping Lucas from being super awesome.

What I'm trying to say is Lucas seems to be fighting an uphill battle; he's a low tier. He feels very much like Brawl Lucas. Lots of tricks and fluff, really cool looking combos, very little substance.

 

[Doctor X]

Sure, you say you know his flaws, but that isn't enough to determine him as good or bad. As you said yourself, its about whether or not his on-stage offense can make up for this weakness. And in my opinion, to know how well he can do this requires you to put work into the character.​

​

​

I said on-stage control or approach, not on-stage offense. Falco is good not because of his combos but because it is very hard to force Falco into a situation where you can abuse his weaknesses, because he has a very fast, nigh-unpunishable projectile that goes through everything and spans the entire stage, a 1-frame combo starter, and a down-air that stays out forever and can easily be cancelled into his 1-frame combo starter. You don't have to be Dr. PeePee to know this, and comparatively terrible Falcos were common in tournament placings before Dr. PeePee even picked up the game. The character is just that good.​

​

Meanwhile, Lucas seems to be Falco Minus-- bad recovery, good combos, and none of those other things I just mentioned above. You can use very tight technical skill to help him stay competitive, but why do that when you can just play Falco? Then the tight technical skill doesn't just help you compete; it helps you win tournaments.​

​

​

As I also said in my earlier post, I don't really feel like he has too many problems tapping into his combo game so long as he is constantly looking for situations to apply pressure. Still, not dropping combos is critical to winning with Lucas, and yet I feel that most of his moves are extremely combo friendly and a typical well executed string can be in the upwards of 60% or more. What sort of 'concrete examples' of this would you like? I don't own my own recording set-up unfortunately

Some of what you've stated so far are concrete examples. You've suggested using SH magnet to approach. I have not tried this, and I will gladly do so. You have suggested tether re-grab tricks, which I have not tried, and I will gladly do so. You have suggested keeping the PKT1 out longer to mix up the angle-- this I have tried to no avail, as usually my opponent simply hits me while I'm floating there if I do this high, and if I do it low my opponent grabs the edge, ready to jump off with a back-air. I stopped doing it because the longer I give my opponent to prepare himself, the less likely he's going to mess up and let me back onto the stage.

This is the kind of discussion that is needed, though, not "You're not playing perfectly so what you think doesn't matter." I will be the first to admit that I could very well be wrong, but I want a reasoned discussion about it to help the community, not dismissive attitudes that focus on the outcomes of matches over the properties of characters, moves, and stages. The latter is a mistake that holds the game back; as I explained in my first post, the smash community has a long history of making this mistake.

Who approaches with a grounded magnet? That move is either comboed into, short hopped, or used as a punish. It's pretty fast, so it's not really that hard to land in a string. And why does the combo have to be simple?

I usually don't approach with it. In fact, I used it as an example precisely because it seems iffy to me as an approach. Iffy moves with great combo potential were the subject I was trying to illustrate. The combo doesn't have to be simple, but examples usually function better when they are simple. We can add in all sorts of crazy tricks and turn our example into a 0-to-death, maybe, but if we can't reliably land that first hit the whole thing is void.

This is the kind of thing that makes me say you need to play this character more and worry about how he stacks up against the rest of the cast later. Like it or not, a lot of your impressions of the character are going to come from your personal experiences. As you said, you "don't like losing". I think that is going to somewhat affect how you feel about the character.

The "personal experience" argument cuts both ways, as I'm sure you know. It's easy to put less emphasis on recovery game and stage presence if you don't regularly play people who efficiently punish deficiencies in these areas. If you do, and you've simply found a way to deal with it, then that's great. Explain it to me, I will try it. I want this character to be good. If you don't regularly play someone like this, though, do yourself a favor and try it. Seek out someone in you area, if you can find one, that is known for edeguarding. Money-match them a few times. See if you can get some friendlies going on a regular basis. You may see your perspective change drastically.

When it comes to losing, though... I personally try my absolute best not to let emotional responses to losing cloud my judgement, and a lot of the time it does work. If you watch my friendlies with other characters, you'll notice that I often lose to OS with Fox, too. I won't tell you that Fox isn't good, though. I know he's good. I can look at his move properties and tell you that he's good. I can look at my Fox play and easily see not only what I could do to remain competitive, but what I could do to potentially turn those losses into 4-stocks. The character is just that good. It will take a lot of work to get him there, but I know it will get him there if I spend enough time on it.

What I don't like, however, is losing no matter how hard I work. Playing low-tier characters is the best way to make this happen. I could spend hours upon hours of my life perfecting DJC shield-pressure and combos for Lucas and try to play like some kind of TAS monster, but if Lucas simply doesn't have the tools to stay competitive with characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth, he will not be a reliable pick. Maybe a nice counterpick, but certainly not someone I'd want to choose in a double-blind situation. To me that seems like a hard sell.

When I lose with Lucas, I think about all of the things that I did wrong that I could have done right. If I do everything right (or at least my definition of what is "good" for a Lucas), then I usually win. It's not Lucas' fault if I can't get combos started because I know that he has the capability to get in.

Then enlighten me, please. Don't just tell me "play better."

Feel free to look at my videos and tell me exactly what you would do and why, in situations that arise in the videos, and explain to me why these suggestions you will make provide answers to my two questions in the OP. I will try your suggestions, if they seem like they will be worthwhile. Whether or not you convince me, this discussion will enrich the community's understanding of this character. That is, after all, the goal.

 

[Oracle]

Lucas has incredible frame safe shield pressure, safe approaches, a projectile that augments his safe approaches by forcing shields, and smashes that cover lots of options. He's definitely viable. I think, though, that he's just prohibitively technical. My apm playing lucas is way higher than when playing fox. Furthermore, lucas doesn't have dumb **** like the other space animals to fall back on if you aren't super technical, which makes him harder.

Saying that he doesn't have the tools to compete is just plain wrong. He has those tools, but they're just much harder to use than other characters'

 

[Doctor X]

Lucas has incredible frame safe shield pressure, safe approaches, a projectile that augments his safe approaches by forcing shields, and smashes that cover lots of options.

"Lots of options" is vague. "Safe approaches" without examples is also vague. A projectile that forces shields is downright wrong. PKF does not force a shield. I feel like that point has been made adequately, with examples.

He's definitely viable. I think, though, that he's just prohibitively technical. My apm playing lucas is way higher than when playing fox. Furthermore, lucas doesn't have dumb **** like the other space animals to fall back on if you aren't super technical, which makes him harder.

Saying that he doesn't have the tools to compete is just plain wrong. He has those tools, but they're just much harder to use than other characters'

This isn't just matter of what is easy and what is hard, but what is humanly possible. Taking human limitation out of the equation makes Fox literally untouchable, as seen with TAS, but Fox is still beatable because people aren't perfect. People need something "easy" to actually win; they need tools they can use to keep themselves from getting murdered without having to be frame-perfect 100% of the time.

If Lucas has these tools, name them. Specifically. With examples. If I'm "just plain wrong," then show me why I'm wrong. Again, with examples. I will gladly listen.

 

[Oracle]

Upsmash covers any option involving the air, as well as a number of getup options from the ledge vs. most characters due to the body hitbox. PKF may not force a shield, but the only other ways to beat it are:
1. roll (which is bad)
2. Attack through it (which isn't even available for a lot of characters)

Either way, it forces them to do something in usually a bad situation to do so, so you can react/read and punish.

DJC fair is safe. SH shine into whatever into jab is also safe. Nair is safe usually bc you can cross peoples shields up, in addition to shield poking with it. In playing lucas since 2.1 I have literally never been punished for doing any of these as long as i do them correctly. This stuff is within the bounds of possible tech skill, it just takes a lot of work. You don't have to be frame perfect, just close. Every time you touch another character, you should get an easy 80% and have them offstage.

"People need something "easy" to actually win"
Just so you know, that's only true for low level play. Good players will do whatever it takes, even if it means working twice as hard as their opponent. Lucas' combo game is ridiculous and incredibly rewarding, moreso than most other characters in PM. You can't even DI out of djc up air strings.

Your lucas is slow and bad at comboing and pressure. If you play like that, then he isn't even close to tournament viable. Same goes for every single lucas I've seen besides myself and GP, who I'm not even sure plays anymore. You guys have so much more distance to go before you understand the character enough to say whether or not he's tournament viable.

 

[Overswarm]

Upsmash covers any option involving the air, as well as a number of getup options from the ledge vs. most characters due to the body hitbox.

This... isn't true.

PKF may not force a shield, but the only other ways to beat it are:
1. roll (which is bad)
2. Attack through it (which isn't even available for a lot of characters)

This also isn't true.

3. Move
4. Jump?
5. Super armor move (everything bowser, D3's dash attack, wario's over-b, etc.)
6. Attack through it (is available for every character with a hitbox larger than their hurtbox)
7. Powershield
8. Spot dodge
9. retreating Triangle jump
10. Retreating air dodge
11. Standing air dodge

Either way, it forces them to do something in usually a bad situation to do so, so you can react/read and punish.

Tradtionally I see it as an opportunity to attack. Lucas is really, really weak when using it unless he's space himself at the optimum distance, which is totally up to his opponent.

DJC fair is safe. SH shine into whatever into jab is also safe. Nair is safe usually bc you can cross peoples shields up, in addition to shield poking with it. In playing lucas since 2.1 I have literally never been punished for doing any of these as long as i do them correctly. This stuff is within the bounds of possible tech skill, it just takes a lot of work. You don't have to be frame perfect, just close. Every time you touch another character, you should get an easy 80% and have them offstage.

Maybe it's just me as Bowser, but I get to up+b or fair OoS against all of these.

Your lucas is slow and bad at comboing and pressure. If you play like that, then he isn't even close to tournament viable. Same goes for every single lucas I've seen besides myself and GP, who I'm not even sure plays anymore. You guys have so much more distance to go before you understand the character enough to say whether or not he's tournament viable.

Post some vids

 

[Oracle]

OS you play bowser. Nothing is safe against him lol. For real characters without 1 frame oos options they're safe.

Everything you listed besides powershield is easily punishable (standing airdodge? are you serious?) if you're doing DJC pkf close to the ground, which is the only good way to use that move. Super armor isn't common in this game, and other than bowser the ones you listed actually lose to pkf. D3's armor is negligible and warios' side b will only beat pkf if the pkf hits him right in the center of the side b, which won't happen if you djc the freeze.

Can you explain how anything in the air can go through lucas's upsmash?

Bowser lucas is pretty much unwinnable for lucas, plus the lucas you were playing isn't very good, so i can understand why you would think lucas is unviable. I would post vids if I had them, but I don't really play lucas in 2.5 as much. I have a few vids from 2.1 but they aren't really even accurate since I'm way better than I was then

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d98fhBrJWSg

I retract my questions, you're blowing smoke

If Lucas really can be viable, it isn't shown in the above video.

Edit:

I'll watch the above video when I can; I only got the first 30 seconds and saw Lucario actively moving away and beating your freeze with an attack XD

Lucas is a flashy character and he has some cool looking combos that do a lot of damage. That said, he is still a low tier. His recovery is garbage and you can generally attest his survival to your opponent's mistakes rather than your own cleverness.

Lucas players from Brawl said the same kind of things you are saying now. "You just need to DJC better", "wavebounce more to recover", etc., etc., but at the end of the day it is a mountain of effort to get a character that is still worse than the top tiers by a significant margin.

We're not asking "can Lucas combo" or "can Lucas reliably kill" or even "can a Lucas win matches sometimes". We're asking if he's a wise choice for a tournament entrant to choose. Unless Lucas has some good matchups against top tier characters that will become common in tournament then there is no reason but personal preference to pick up Lucas that I can see.

 

[Oracle]

Yeah i got outplayed by one of the top players in the country when i was using a secondary I hadn't played since 2.1 lucas is clearly garbage

You guys can continue to suck if you want, but just remember that if you're blaming the character, you're wrong. Sorry kiddos

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah i got outplayed by one of the top players in the country when i was using a secondary I hadn't played since 2.1 lucas is clearly garbage

You guys can continue to suck if you want, but just remember that if you're blaming the character, you're wrong. Sorry kiddos

Characters bring legitimate issues to the player. If you're more skilled than your opponent you can win with a lower tiered character just fine; I should know, I did it with ROB for years and still can in Brawl. I played Bowser in Melee and was able to tear up Foxes and Falcos on a consistent basis, too.

Doesn't mean ROB or Bowser are viable characters in a competitive environment.

I'm not trying to make fun of you for losing as Lucas. I'm trying to point out to you that Lucas, the character, is not currently viable due to things in that video that won't change. You can watch the video and just take note of each time you get hit and each time your opponent gets hit and ask "What could I/they have done differently to not get hit? Did they punish me in that situation the most that I know? Did I punish them the most that I know?"

Most of the time it results in "Oh, Lucas should be dead".

 

[Oracle]

That's not really true. If I go in and look at every mistake that i could have reasonably fixed, then it would result in every time I hit him his stock would be over. I dropped so many combos and messed up my pressure a ton and STILL almost won both of those games. How does that mean lucas isn't viable?

 

[Overswarm]

That's not really true. If I go in and look at every mistake that i could have reasonably fixed, then it would result in every time I hit him his stock would be over. I dropped so many combos and messed up my pressure a ton and STILL almost won both of those games. How does that mean lucas isn't viable?

I don't think you get it.

People drop combos, reliably so. 0-death on Falco with Marth on FD in Melee is one of the easiest things in the world but people drop it all the time. The solution isn't "don't drop it lol" just like solution to smash 64 isn't "don't get hit".

Despite this, Falco is considered viable in the matchup and Marth is considered viable in the matchup. FD is even considered a pro-Falco stage, despite the fact that one grab from Marth could end Falco.

You'll drop combos when your opponent DIs well or even oddly, when you make a technical mistake, whatever. You don't play as if you won't. Fox vs. Peach isn't "just drill shine infinite her?" for this reason.

Now let's take a look at your video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fXJEBNI3LEA

0:05 - Lucario pops your over-b, allowing him to approach

This is the first sign that Lucas' over-b is situational and not something that can be spammed. We now know it can be defeated by hitboxes and can this destruction of the over-b can lead to an enemy approach.

0:05-0:08

We see Lucas' jab on Lucario at 0%, first and second hit. You follow it up with a fair, but it can be shielded. We now know that Lucas' jab isn't eternally a combo starter. Not a bad thing, just knowledge. Given that it's one of his fastest "GTFO" moves (and is decent for a jab to begin with), this is important. Maybe you should have used a nair or a grab or something, but the important thing is Lucario could shield at lower %.

0:08-0:09

We see Lucas use his over-b at Lucario who then... moves the other direction. Lucas cannot punish this in any way. We now know that either Denti is some sort of smash god or the move itself is telegraphed enough to where the opponent can just run away to outrange/speed it. Given that I have done this myself consistently, we know it's telegraphed.

Couple issues with the over-b already 10 seconds into the match. It can be out-prioritized and destroyed, it can be dodged easily, and it is very telegraphed.

0:09-0:19

We see the first attempts at true aggression here, with Lucario spacing himself outside of Lucas' over-b range and still remaining a threat to Lucas. This is important because it shows that Lucas' over-b is filling the same function as most projectiles do. It's not a "special" projectile like Fox/Falco or ROB/Peach.

We also see Lucas actually hit Lucario with a nair and attempt to follow up with a dash attack at 33% and failing due to Lucario DIing down into the ground and teching. Now we're starting to realize that Lucas really needs a "pop up" to get his combos going.

Couple issues for the psychic child in just under 20 seconds. His projectile isn't especially useful and can be beaten in multiple ways and he has trouble following up at low % with both jab and a nair on hit. Two moves that can be considered important for common situations.

The solutions present in just the first 20 seconds all require you to be playing in a TAS. You didn't do anything necessarily wrong, Lucas options were just read and beaten by an opponent. The solution was "don't do that because he knew it was coming and/or reacted appropriately".

Immediately after you miss the dash attack, you attempt to approach with a nair again (a seemingly common approach aerial it seems); Lucario simply moves and then attacks you with a dash attack, which you cc.

0:19-21

Now we get to Lucas do something.

You nair his shield at 33% and then he spot dodges, and you down+b him out of it.

We learn a few things from this. If you L-canceled properly, it means that nair isn't safe on shield because Lucario had time to react. If he has time to react OoS that means that your ability to punish them for shielding your nair is dependent on whether or not your down+b comes out faster than any of their options. That reduces Lucas' nair on shield viability quite a bit!

0:21-0:22

He gets hit by your down+b and seemingly DIs it properly, but misses the tech. You capitalize by dash attacking to get the "pop up" you've been trying to get.

This is important because the following stems from your opponent's two mistakes: spot dodging when you can down+b and missing the tech.

0:23-0:32

You try to chain him and he gets out pretty consistently, but you're able to follow up (typically with dash attack into an aerial). We see him stuff an empty short hop with a jab (inconsequential) and you suicide.


So first 32 seconds we've learned that over-b is unreliable to actually hit, but can be used to control space. They can't just run through it normally (Bowser can crawl through it!). It is not, however, safe at preventing approaching as anyone "calling" the over-b can break it and then approach you without any danger to themselves. Lucas so far seems to have a good chase down game that revolves around punishing opponent's mistakes with large hitboxes.

I won't go on with this game because for one it's 2.1 and two it's from last November.

But you see what I mean?

That first stock Lucario could have removed himself from the situations that brought about the damage and reliably done so. Lucas however couldn't have changed his lot without completely changing the scenario. "Oh, well I wouldn't nair his shield" doesn't cut it if you say nair is a good approach. It's "what do you do after you nair the shield" and "does this rely on my opponent messing up".

For many good characters, they have answers. If Fox nairs your shield, what does he do? He shines, then he jumps out of there. Or he shines and then shffls a dair to the other side of the shield and shines. Or shines and wavedashes away or to the other side of the shield. Or shines and then grabs out of the shine. Or double shines. Or triple shines. He has multiple options that are tried and true and easily doable by human hands. If Bowser spaces a fair on Lucas' shield, Bowser doesn't have to do anything because it's safe on Lucas shield. If Bowser mis-spaces it, he can up+b away. Falco has shine/grab shenanigans.

You don't get many options for Lucas or many actual safe approaches. As people become more comfortable with the matchup the options that seem safe become decidedly unsafe. People playing Bowser for the first time go "HOOOOLY CRAP GET UP ATTACK" when they first see it and they get hit by it 24/7. Most good players love the fact taht Bowser uses get up attack because it's a free grab or smash. It'll be the same with most of Lucas' stuff because it's not safe in a vacuum.

More importantly, Lucas' recovery shows himself to be extremely vulnerable. This isn't bad in of itself (Falco is vulnerable, although less so than Lucas), but when coupled with an on-stage presence that is rivaled by a ton of other characters it's impossible to see Lucas as "above the fold".

 

[Oracle]

Lol match analysis like that is useless. For every point you made I could retort with a "but I could have done this to beat it", but it would be a waste of my time since that much should be obvious. And at any point did I say that i was landing lots of PKF, or that the move was broken because it was unavoidable, or that I was using it to prevent people from approaching? No **** I use it to control space, thats what you do with literally every projectile. If they're in PKF's fairly large range, it either forces something that i can punish or forces them to give up stage control to run away, both of which are favorable situations for me. Is it falco's laser? No. But its still incredibly useful vs. non bowser characters. All you did was show that in a match from five months ago, back when I wasn't that good, I didn't use the pkf to its fullest extent. uh, who cares? You can theorycraft all day and say x, y, and z beat pkf and I could reply with a, b, and c beat those options, but thats idiotic and we'll just go in circles.

I'll try to work on my lucas so I can show you guys what he's capable of, but I'm not gonna participate in this discussion anymore. You all need to realize that every time you try to say "lucas is unviable", you're working under the assumption that you know literally everything there is to know about the character. Appreciating the possibility that you might be wrong is extremely important to learning and improving as a player.

tl;dr: don't waste your time on discussions like this because they aren't accurate representations of actual gameplay

 

[Overswarm]

I'll try to work on my lucas so I can show you guys what he's capable of, but I'm not gonna participate in this discussion anymore. You all need to realize that every time you try to say "lucas is unviable", you're working under the assumption that you know literally everything there is to know about the character. Appreciating the possibility that you might be wrong is extremely important to learning and improving as a player.

I've likely been winning tournaments in competitive games longer than you've been a competitive gamer; I know what it takes.

I also know that I've seen characters like Lucas in previous Smash games and they always end up the same: niche characters beloved by people who just really liked the Mother (or whatever) series or just love the character.


I'm not working under the assumption that I know "literally everything there is to know", but I'm able to look at Lucas' properties and say "oh, he's outclassed by others". Why would you pick Lucas over Falco? Falco's faster, has better combos, stronger kill potential, faster and safer approaches and attacks, a better projectile... Lucas' trade off is what, a slightly better grab game if he can get the grab?

I'm looking at current Lucas tournament placements and tournament and friendly videos and I'm seeing the same problems shown in all Lucas players. If Lucas is going to be a viable tournament character, it's not with how people are playing now and it certainly isn't the way that people are saying it is now. No, nair isn't safe on shield against everyone. No, his recovery is not acceptable. No, his over-b isn't an awesome projectile. If they are, this has yet to be proven because I've seen those moves fail consistently in how they are described and it's not through the fault of the player.

 

[Oracle]

You just pulled the i'm older than you card lol i'm done. stay free everyone else

 

[Naughty Pixel]

Yeah it would be nice if his PKF would have a slightly higher reward for hitting, since it doesn't have the priority, the speed(?), or range of Falco's lasers. For example a slightly longer stun or, while this might be a bit much, maybe a unique hitbox puts the opponent at a brief yet abusable disadvantage, such as pulling in or down.

Another thing that really irks me, is when I land the tip of my fair on a high percent opponent and it doesn't kill. I'm not saying it should be an incredibly reliable kill move, but when I get wario with the tip of it at 150 from the ledge and he comes right back it just seems silly.

Lucas has plenty of moves that can be put together to make some really flashy combos, but it seems like his neutral game is where he hurts the most. This might just be me, but I figured it should definitely be possible to link shffled/djc'd aerial into down-b like what you see with the space animals. This has not been the case in my experience. The window between aerial and shine have been for me too wide and will usually end with my attempts punished.

I might post some more thoughts in a bit but I have some hw that needs finishing x.x

 

[Badge]

I didn't really want to comment on this yet, but such a sloppy video analysis doesn't really help your point OS - many of those conclusions can't be drawn out of the data provided or are plain wrong. Lucario used an AS to destroy the PKFreeze, thus getting no lag himself but still only hit long after Lucas could act again. What happened was Oracle's cc-attempt getting beaten by Lucario's Force Palm. We don't learn that "anyone "calling" the over-b can break it and then approach you without any danger to themselves" . The DA after Nair actually hit before Denti was able to act, but he happened to ASDI down and tech. This still is a weakness, but different from what you described. Denti spotdodging between Nair and DownB doesn't tell you anything more than looking at the frame data would have, actually it says less. I don't think anybody said Nair is absolutely safe on shield - that would be crazy considering DownB->Nair is frame perfect shield pressure. I could go on.

Not saying that you're wrong in calling Lucas bad, I'll refrain from giving my opinion on that quite yet because I want to gather at least some competitive experience before that. The conclusions may even be correct for other reasons, but I believe analysis that actually try to be accurate or in-depth would do more good.

Also: Bowser should not get a fair OoS if Lucas' shield pressure is anywhere near precise. UpB sure, but not fair.