Top-Down Evaluation: Is Lucas Good?

[Overswarm]

I'd like to add that I don't think Lucas' recovery has to be good.

I'm just saying it's not good, and his on stage presence is flashy but ineffective in comparison to other characters. His safest maneuvers are easily dealt with, so, automatic mid to low tier.

If Lucas was to be viable in a competitive environment he either needs to be scarier on stage or more capable off stage. For all the support Lucas has here, I don't think anyone here thinks he holds a candle to the "good" characters.

 

[G13_Flux]

how is his on stage game ineffective? between DJC to shield pressure and combo, and his amazing smash attacks that have insane range AND kill at very low percents, i dont see how thats ineffective compared to others. if you use his projectile like ur falco, sure people are going to catch on and start attacking through it. why dont you use it with more variety then, and start punishing people when they attempt to attack through it, or just start using it as a punishing option in general? people can attack through peaches turnips, link and tinks projectiles, and marios fireball, but people dont consider those awful projectiles. in additition, lucas has an amazing WD, and a pretty fast running speed. its easy to see that his offstage game is definitely not up to par with a lot of the top characters, but as far as onstage goes, i definitely fail to see how it is not up to par. so what, his projectile doesnt have transcendent priority. he out does falco in every other aspect though, including range, speed, and power, and is at least almost on par with him in terms of shield pressure (still much better than a large percentage of the cast). if lucas' combos into a OU DACUS dont scare you then idk what does.

 

[Doctor X]

A lot of us PMBR read everything. Just sayin.

That is admirable, but I don't expect every person involved in making decisions about Lucas or other characters to do this. I also don't know if literally reading everything is going to lead to reasonable conclusions if the deepest we get into the question of "Is Lucas Good?" is a few people saying "I think he is" and leaving it at that. If you're not forced to defend the position with considerable reasoning, not a whole lot of insight is really gained.

In super theory bros this is basically true for every single character except maybe Puff. Real matches aren't super theory bros though so you should expect a lucas to have a couple more angles/options that might be good against certain characters/edgegaurd attempts. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

It is quite clearly more true for Lucas than it is for most of Melee's tournament-viable characters. The point isn't that your opponent needs to be some kind of paragon in order to edgeguard you. He doesn't even need to be all that good at the game otherwise,--he just has to think about what he's doing.

Looking at how this thread continues to progress, though, I've come to realize that the kind of discussion that needs to happen just won't happen here. My goal was to show that theory can and should be applied to draw conclusions instead of waiting years for the metagame to "prove" things that we should already know. Thus, the "top down" approach. There seems to be a little too much emotion going around here for that kind of approach though. People would instead insist on a "bottom-up" approach, where we say absolutely nothing until Lucas players start getting edgeguarded to hell in high-profile nationals. Only then, will you believe it, I guess.

To me this is an immense waste of time and energy, especially if the PMBR hope to have a "final" version sometime in the next decade. You guys can continue thinking what you will, by all means, but as it stands I have every confidence that you will learn the truth of these arguments the hard way. Just like Falcon mains and Ganon mains have had to do before you.

I'm sure Shadic is tired of watching this teeter on the edge of a flame war, and tbqh I am as well, so if he wants to close it, I'm fine with that. I'm finished posting for a while. For those of you that have been constructive, thank you. Maybe we'll get a better chance to talk about it somewhere down the line.

 

[Namelessthinker]

I really really hate to say this as it was Lucas who gave me my start in Brawl from a competitive stand point Lucas is really really bad... While his smash attacks are strong and have good KO ability they have ALOT of lag with them. His B-specials are rather weak other than PK Thunder which has multi-hit capabilities, but all his B-moves are very punishable due to how long it takes before they come out and how easy they are to dodge.

Now back to smash attacks. His Up-smash is powerful but is probably his most punishable move and often times gives the opponent a free combo. His forward smash is by far his best smash but due to it lacking alot of power as well as it becoming stale very quickly makes it very unreliable as his best KO move. His down-smash... like his up-smash its powerful but very punishable.

In regards to Lucas' air game. He doesn't have one in anyway shape or form not to mention all his aerial attacks are out prioritized by almost everything.

If all that didn't already make Lucas unusable his recovery does. Instead of telling you how hard it is to pull off and how many variables go into whether he'll make a successful recovery, I'll tell you what won't keep him from recovering: if the opponent doesn't know how to edge-guard. That's about it. To much room for error, lag time, punishability.

Lucas is just not good. I'm not saying though he doesn't deserve a buff in SSB4 though. There are so many things they can do with Lucas to make him a better character all around (giving him an actual recovery and air-game would be a good start)

 

[G13_Flux]

@ doctor X, with all due respect, i dont think the point of any thread should be to reach a conclusion that a character is bad. obviously there are going to be people who disagree and think otherwise (like myself). the real purpose should be to evaluate the pros and cons of a character, and discuss various aspects of his current metagame from multiple perspectives, not simply comparing him directly to other characters (characters that he is really completely different from). i agree that i should not simply either be put at "well lets wait for the metagame to develop" but i dont think that that fact should be overlooked either. frankly, ive hardly seen any lucas play in tournaments at all, and even more frankly, there havent been all that many big PM tournaments since 2.5 came out anyways. it would be nice to see some more dedicated lucas players on the scene before any truly hasty decisions are made.

 

[Zenrot]

The problem with theory fighter is, quite frankly, nobody cares what anyone else has to say. Sure, you can hash **** out in theory all day, but there's always more variables to any situation than "Lucas is bad because this character does something better than he does". And even then, what is "bad"? Mid tier certainly doesn't = bad. Bad is usually viewed as tournament unplayable. A lot of characters win match-ups in theory that just can't be applied realistically. Theory fighter is inherently flawed because it is Theory, often with very poor or even flat out incorrect evidence backing the points of both sides that inevitably comes down to "because I said so" or "I have won a tournament you probably have never heard of so I'm right", as this thread has done.

To the people arguing for Lucas:
Stop getting so offended that some people think your character is bad. It's okay to use characters that aren't top tier. There are examples of factual evidence being presented by pro-Lucas debaters but they are rare. Anti-Lucas debaters don't have to be Lucas masters to discuss certain aspects of the character, just like a movie critic doesn't have to be an award winning film-maker. You can tell a character is bad when the people arguing that he isn't bad say "You just don't know how to use him" as their main defense.

To the people arguing against Lucas:
Stop playing the victim. Stop being passive aggressive. Stop accusing others of blowing smoke when you're doing the same thing. Stop claiming not to insult people and then immediately insult them. Stop flashing "credentials", they don't matter and just make you look like you're trying to pull rank, which you are incapable of doing because nobody cares about your tournament history unless you're a top player. Understand that while no, you don't have to be a Lucas master to argue the character, leading your argument with "I don't have Lucas experience but I think he is booty" obviously isn't going to go over well with Pro-Lucas users.

Debates don't have to be arguments, but that's all it has been on this forum anytime two sides meet. Condescension, whining, and venom.

 

[Doctor X]

The problem with theory fighter is, quite frankly, nobody cares what anyone else has to say. Sure, you can hash **** out in theory all day, but there's always more variables to any situation than "Lucas is bad because this character does something better than he does". And even then, what is "bad"? Mid tier certainly doesn't = bad. Bad is usually viewed as tournament unplayable. A lot of characters win match-ups in theory that just can't be applied realistically. Theory fighter is inherently flawed because it is Theory, often with very poor or even flat out incorrect evidence backing the points of both sides that inevitably comes down to "because I said so" or "I have won a tournament you probably have never heard of so I'm right", as this thread has done.

To the people arguing for Lucas:
Stop getting so offended that some people think your character is bad. It's okay to use characters that aren't top tier. There are examples of factual evidence being presented by pro-Lucas debaters but they are rare. Anti-Lucas debaters don't have to be Lucas masters to discuss certain aspects of the character, just like a movie critic doesn't have to be an award winning film-maker. You can tell a character is bad when the people arguing that he isn't bad say "You just don't know how to use him" as their main defense.

To the people arguing against Lucas:
Stop playing the victim. Stop being passive aggressive. Stop accusing others of blowing smoke when you're doing the same thing. Stop claiming not to insult people and then immediately insult them. Stop flashing "credentials", they don't matter and just make you look like you're trying to pull rank, which you are incapable of doing because nobody cares about your tournament history unless you're a top player. Understand that while no, you don't have to be a Lucas master to argue the character, leading your argument with "I don't have Lucas experience but I think he is booty" obviously isn't going to go over well with Pro-Lucas users.

Debates don't have to be arguments, but that's all it has been on this forum anytime two sides meet. Condescension, whining, and venom.

I'll make just one more post to say "well said" here. I apologize for my part in this silliness which I know has been considerable.

Also, please believe that the original intention was not to reach the conclusion that Lucas is bad. In fact at the time I made the OP I wanted to believe Lucas was good despite OS's frequent urgings to the contrary, and I was hoping for some detailed input from Lucas mains beyond what I could glean in General Discussion to shove in OS's face.

Sadly people didn't really start responding until I started giving up on the idea, and that just turned it into something much less helpful than I originally wanted it to be.

I'll go ahead and request a close. I think everyone's basically done here. Wherever Lucas winds up I wish nothing the best of luck to you gentlemen. If I happen to see you in a national, 1-winged, I'll be rooting for you. I'll start wearing a hat so I'll have a hat to eat, just in case.

Lates for now.

 

[Shadic]

Closed by request.