Top-Down Evaluation: Is Lucas Good?

[Oracle]

Not saying that you're wrong in calling Lucas bad, I'll refrain from giving my opinion on that quite yet because I want to gather at least some competitive experience before that. The conclusions may even be correct for other reasons, but I believe analysis that actually try to be accurate or in-depth would do more good.

This is a really good attitude that you all could learn a lot from

 

[Overswarm]

You just pulled the i'm older than you card lol i'm done. stay free everyone else

"Appreciating the possibility that you might be wrong is extremely important to learning and improving as a player."

It's not an attack on you; I'm trying to tell you I'm not just pulling this out of the air. You, however, are. You say "Lucas is viable", but move the fenceposts back. You say your Lucas is one of the only ones that could be considered a worthwhile measure, but then a video you supplied and a video I supplied aren't indicative of Lucas' success. You're asked for specifics and then give falsities that you support with "Well, except for that case". You don't really know what you're talking about; you just like Lucas and get impressed by flashy lights.

 

[Oracle]

It's not an attack on you

you just like Lucas and get impressed by flashy lights.

We're done here folks. I'm not about to get lectured from some random who doesn't even play the character in question. This thread pretty much amounts to "Lucas is hard boo hoo buff him please" and doesn't belong on this board. Mods please close

 

[Shadic]

As long as this thread stays focused on "what are this character's weaknesses" versus "What the PMBR should do to my character," I'll leave it open.

 

[Overswarm]

We're done here folks. I'm not about to get lectured from some random who doesn't even play the character in question. This thread pretty much amounts to "Lucas is hard boo hoo buff him please" and doesn't belong on this board. Mods please close

If you consider that an attack, you haven't hung around me long enough

 

[Doctor X]

"People need something "easy" to actually win"
Just so you know, that's only true for low level play. Good players will do whatever it takes, even if it means working twice as hard as their opponent.

No, they don't. Good players don't play low-tier characters in unfavorable matchups when money and top placements are on the line. In a tournament finals, you can't bank on having worked "twice as hard" as your opponent. Your opponent is where he is because he's worked just as hard as you. Playing a character that requires twice as much work in a situation like that is just plain stupid. It runs on the assumption that you're just that much better than your opponent, which you have to know isn't the case given the fierce competition that drives the scene.

You will never see M2K intentionally choose a character like Ganondorf when he's playing Dr. Peepee for prize money. Ever. There's a reason for this: M2K doesn't want to lose.

You guys have so much more distance to go before you understand the character enough to say whether or not he's tournament viable.

I don't think that we do, but again, I don't view this as a final conclusion. Just a personal one. Your job is to make a solid case to demonstrate otherwise.

Bear in mind that move properties and character traits quite literally are everything there is to know about a character. What must be considered is how these properties might be applied. We're skeptical because, looking at Lucas's moveset, there doesn't appear to be much of anything that he can possibly do better than someone like Falco.

So far, you haven't done or said anything that couldn't also be said of plenty of low-tiers in past games. I mean, yeah, if you outclass your opponent two to one, you can probably beat their Fox with Mewtwo, but guess what? You still probably shouldn't pick Mewtwo in finals, because if someone's in the finals you most definitely do not outclass them two to one. They will annihilate your Mewtwo and wonder why the **** you would have ever tried such a silly stunt.

If your case is that shield-pressure will literally solve absolutely everything here, then explain why. It doesn't seem to matter to me because my opponent has only to not shield and ruin the whole thing. Playing without reliance on your shield already considered a hallmark of strong play specifically because powerful shield pressure already exists among top tier characters. I can already say that Falco does it far better than Lucas ever can, no matter how hard Lucas works, and Falco has much better tools for forcing shields than Lucas does. There is no almost reason to play this character that I can see, unless you just want to do a super cool guy impression the way Taj did in Melee when he wrecked bad Foxes with Mewtwo.

Edit:

As for the plea to close, I don't understand that at all. I'd like for this to be a civil discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of this relatively unexplored character which can potentially be used by the PMBR should they choose to make some changes sometime in the future. Of course we shouldn't tell them exactly what to do and expect them to obey, but an exchange of ideas can't do anything but help provided those ideas are constructive and not blatant insults.

One-Winged Angel: You, at this very moment, are the only person turning this thread into mindless trash-talk. OS could be more civil, true, but he presents reasons, not calling everyone who disagrees with him "free" and ignorantly reducing arguments, which others have put an extensive amount of time and effort into explaining, into "wah wah Lucas is hard."

Please stop. It does nothing but harm to the community.

 

[Oracle]

I would pick lucas because I like lucas's playstyle, and enjoying playing the character helps me stay motivated to keep playing them. I don't like the prospect of just being another random who flocks to a top tier to make up for his lack of skill, especially since the vast majority of people who do that remain randoms. I know for a fact that he's really good from my experiences with him against good players, I don't really need to prove that on the internet for it to be true. I'll continue to be good with him you guys can stay bad if you want

 

[Doctor X]

I would pick lucas because I like lucas's playstyle, and enjoying playing the character helps me stay motivated to keep playing them. I don't like the prospect of just being another random who flocks to a top tier to make up for his lack of skill, especially since the vast majority of people who do that remain randoms.

In this, you are admitting defeat whether you realize it or not. You've designated yourself as someone who can never achieve notice in this community without playing a character that nobody else plays. For this to work, Lucas has to be bad, because the only characters that nobody plays are the bad characters.

Simna was known for playing Ness, but he didn't win major tournaments with Ness. He will be one of the first people to tell you that Ness is bad.
Taj was known for playing Mewtwo, but he didn't win major tournaments with Mewtwo. He will be one of the first people to tell you that Mewtwo is bad.
Gimpyfish was known for playing Bowser, but he didn't win major tournaments with Bowser. He will be one of the first people to tell you that Bowser was bad in Melee, and apparently has played a large role in suggesting improvements for Project M.

Do you see a pattern here? To achieve fame this way your character has to be bad.

I know for a fact that he's really good from my experiences with him against good players, I don't really need to prove that on the internet for it to be true. I'll continue to be good with him you guys can stay bad if you want

If it's actually true, it's true. I'll give you that, because that's how truth works. If you want other people to see the truth, though, you need to explain or demonstrate it. If you go on to beat the best-of-the-best and consistently take high-profile placings at high-profile tournaments, that might prove us wrong, too. I wish you the best of luck. I doubt it will happen, but as I've already said I would love to be wrong.

 

[Oracle]

I don't get why you're so doubtful of me. If I can beat all but one of chicago's top players in tournament with a character most people regarded as the worst in the game then wouldn't it make sense for me to be right about lucas as well?

Assuming that a character is bad because nobody plays him is a moronic assumption. Around the time melee was this old nobody played falcon because he was regarded as too fast. I don't play lucas because he's bad i play lucas because I enjoy playing him. And FYI, in their day the players you listed were way more fundamentally sound than many of their peers and probably could have switched to top tiers and used the skill they developed with low tiers to beat everyone else.

 

[Oro?!]

And all of "chicago's top" can beat you too.

 

[Doctor X]

I don't get why you're so doubtful of me. If I can beat all but one of chicago's top players in tournament with a character most people regarded as the worst in the game then wouldn't it make sense for me to be right about lucas as well?

It would, if beating some top players in a single city in the Midwest was really all it took to be considered among the best. Strangely though, it isn't. No offense to Chicago, but if you think being considered good in Chicago makes much of a difference to, say, the East Coast's opinion of you, then you don't know much about the smash community. Traditionally EC players consider the midwest to be bloody awful at this game, and barring some diamonds in the rough, tournament results have not exactly proven them wrong.

I'm willing to accept this because I know that I'm bad. I look at Dr. PeePee's spacies and know, in my heart, that he will beat the living bejesus out of me unless I work by ass off to get on his level. But what I will *not* do is beat him with a low-tier. It just won't happen, man. It. Just. Won't. Not unless I get lucky and for some reason he doesn't know something very critical about the matchup.

Assuming that a character is bad because nobody plays him is a moronic assumption. Around the time melee was this old nobody played falcon because he was regarded as too fast.

Around the time melee was this old people had no idea what the hell they were talking about because there was no developed scene and hardly any insight into what matters in a character and what doesn't. Currently the PM community does not suffer from this limitation. It is, by design actually, very similar to Melee, and wisdom learned from Melee can be applied to it; this is exactly the point that I took great pains to illustrate in my original post. Please don't ignore it because you don't like where this knowledge leads.

I don't play lucas because he's bad i play lucas because I enjoy playing him.

Didn't you just say that you'd rather become known playing a hard character than to be an unknown playing an easy character? This seems to me like you don't think you could become known playing an easy character and are willing to settle for the alternative.

I mean, I enjoy playing him, too, but if my end goal was to, say... win a national? Not that I wish to imply that I could win a national with any character whatsoever, but if I was faced with the possibility I most definitely wouldn't pick Lucas. Nobody else should, either, if my argument stands. If you disagree, man, don't let it stand. Prove me wrong. Once again, I want to be wrong.

And FYI, in their day the players you listed were way more fundamentally sound than many of their peers and probably could have switched to top tiers and used the skill they developed with low tiers to beat everyone else.

Actually yeah, man, this is true. I know that Taj, for example, did very well, but he still didn't play Mewtwo against Mango at Genesis 2. If asked the question "why didn't you play Mewtwo against Mango?" I know that he would respond with something along the lines of "because I wanted to win."

Burnsy, you're an Arizona player. If Taj still plays would you be interested in asking him this question, if you get the chance? I know what the answer will be, but don't let me speak for him. Maybe he'll get on here and call me a scrub. I never met the guy so who knows?

-

Edit: So yeah, here's the deal. I've come to realize that this thread is no longer about Lucas's actual move properties and has instead become clogged with discussion about whether or not it is worth it to play a low-tier.

Despite my fervor this isn't the discussion I was interested in having. Instead, let's turn it back to whether or not Lucas *is* low-tier, please? That's what this was about to begin with.

If not I may wind up agreeing with the notion of closing it. I'd be sad to admit that the community for this character might not really be ready for this discussion.

 

[Oracle]

you were the one who came in here and derailed the thread asking why i would choose this character. Cute passive aggression btw. People on this site are so dumb sometimes...east coast is garbage at pm aside from like m2k and pp lol. I'm gonna continue to win with my 'low tier' you have fun with theory bros

 

[Doctor X]

It was a rhetorical question meant to demonstrate that those interested in winning tournaments would do well to not choose this character. You took the time to answer it for some reason, and your answer tells me you're not interested in winning tournaments so much as becoming famous in the community. To be honest though, I don't care what you do or why you do it, but the fact that you answered this question in this way has shown me that you already view Lucas as excluded from the top tier. If he was top-tier you wouldn't risk being a "random who flocks to top tiers" by playing him. It belies your confidence, man, it really does. Again, I wish you nothing but luck, but I think you're in for a big surprise. :\

So anyway, guys, let's get back to theory. Would anybody like to point out some more specific things in my videos that I can change? What should be different about my approaches? What should be different about my combo choices? What should be different about my edgeguarding? This is your opportunity to tell me how wrong I am. Please do. I like being proven wrong if it means I get to learn something.

 

[Oracle]

straw men are made of straw

 

[Doctor X]

straw men are made of straw

... and useless posts are also useless. How many times are you going to have to say you're "done" before you actually go away? >.<

Edit: Let me repeat myself. From this point forward I would like to consider this thread an open invitation to critique my videos. Feel free to be as "sloppy" and "condescending" as OS was. There is literally nothing you can say about my play that will offend me, though I would prefer things that can actually help me improve. Maybe with more direct experience my argument will change, though I remain skeptical.

I'd also still like to consider this thread an open place to talk about more "top-down" approaches to Lucas. We already have matchup threads and general discussion, but what we don't have elswhere is a thread strictly dedicated to comparing Lucas to existing knowledge of Melee and drawing conclusions based on that.

Any further posts about other subjects I will ignore, and I encourage everyone else to do the same. In fact, I'd encourage people to ignore previous posts not concerned with these subjects as well. Thanks, guys, and I apologize for my involvement in what basically amounts to a "tires don exits" level argument here. :\

 

[Oracle]

if you want to good players to help you, you probably shouldn't be such a condescending douche

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUq2VSRaZoA&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=5

Here's a good example of Lucas' recovery not being acceptable. Lucas offstage = dead Lucas. Just tappity tap tap tap. Lucas is forced to snake because his up+b is garbage, but his tether gets him killed too. Just takes two hits instead of one.

 

[Oracle]

Most of the gimps were due to technical errors or bad DI or w/e. You can mix up the snake and airdodge timing/directions to make it really difficult for your opponent to hit you. Its mostly once you get forced to PKT to the edge that it gets really easy to edgeguard him.

Plus, lucas's onstage game is good enough to where you shouldn't be offstage very often, similar to falco. That match is what happens when you try to play lucas outdoors when its windy and cold >.>

 

[Overswarm]

Most of the gimps were due to technical errors or bad DI or w/e. You can mix up the snake and airdodge timing/directions to make it really difficult for your opponent to hit you. Its mostly once you get forced to PKT to the edge that it gets really easy to edgeguard him.

We have yet to see evidence of this in any circumstance. So far I personally have had good success and every video I've seen has generally shown the Lucas not being the one in control of whether or not he gets hit.

The reality is, Lucas gets gimped and Lucas gets edgeguarded.

Plus, lucas's onstage game is good enough to where you shouldn't be offstage very often, similar to falco. That match is what happens when you try to play lucas outdoors when its windy and cold >.>

No johns.

And Lucas is nothing like Falco.

 

[Oracle]

Again, your experiences don't really matter since you play bowser and that matchup is essentially an exception, since lucas has no good options for recovering high and bowser's getup attack covering every option that lucas has for recovering, which is a luxury that no other character has access to vs lucas. Plus, the lucas you play is really bad.

Cold hands is a legit john when you play a character as technical as lucas

 

[Naughty Pixel]

He's kinda like falco

Also Dr. X was talking about Lucas being a hard character = Lucas being low tier. I believe what 1 winged angel was talking about was there's a much higher technical ceiling to Lucas than say Bowser or Peach or Puff. There's a sort of allure to technical characters for many people, who don't just wanna win, they want to style. That's what Lucas can do, he can take his opponent on a tour of the entire stage then finally showing em where the blast zones are. That's personally what I love about him, and what makes me want to keep playing as Lucas.

 

[Ishiey]

I'd give critique but it would be borderline useless since Fox is Fox and Bowser ignores the basic rules of shield pressure lol.

You (Doctor X) should use more nair approaches (to give your opponent more reason to shield when they see you approaching), grab (once you can see they want to shield), and focus more on spacing/zoning with mobility (don't get hit when you don't need to), imo. I know this is crappy and vague, but, eh. All I really have time for atm. Oh, and also learn how to get the most from your combos.

From what I've seen from videos posted in this thread, as well as a few personal experiences, I've come to the conclusion that Lucas is kind of bad when his opponent has quick ground speed and knows how to dash away. Thoughts?

 

[Overswarm]

Mobility itself is an advantage against any character, I'd I imagine. It might be more accurate to say that Lucas is weakened by his for his forced commitment to the majority of his approaches.

 

[Doctor X]

I'd give critique but it would be borderline useless since Fox is Fox and Bowser ignores the basic rules of shield pressure lol.

You (Doctor X) should use more nair approaches (to give your opponent more reason to shield when they see you approaching), grab (once you can see they want to shield), and focus more on spacing/zoning with mobility (don't get hit when you don't need to), imo. I know this is crappy and vague, but, eh. All I really have time for atm. Oh, and also learn how to get the most from your combos.

I appreciate the effort, even if you can't dedicate time to something more specific right now. I will certainly be rethinking my approach game to focus less on PKF.

I will, however, be putting this guy on the backburner as an actual main for a bit, so I can focus on other characters for my tournament play. I might screw around with some technical stuff in training mode when I have time, though. I would like to have a Lucas that doesn't drop combos so much, if only for funsies. If someone else comes up with some amazing way of optimizing his stage presence, though, I will gladly copy the hell out of it.

From what I've seen from videos posted in this thread, as well as a few personal experiences, I've come to the conclusion that Lucas is kind of bad when his opponent has quick ground speed and knows how to dash away. Thoughts?

Dashing away is often a very strong defensive play no matter what character you're playing against, but I of course agree with you in saying that it really messes with Lucas in particular. There was a short time when I did relatively ok against both OS's Bowser and OS's Fox, but as soon as he realized that he had no reason to accept a risky engagement I almost entirely lost the ability to touch him. Instead of accepting bad engagements, he simply runs away and I can do very little to prevent it. I realize this is personal experience, so I won't hold it up as proof of anything, but the move properties seem like they would lead to just such a scenario.

This brings us back to Ganondorf again. This was another of Ganondorf's problems. He seemed really good to many early on in Melee, because shielding was such an ineffective answer to his fair. The fair pushed you back out of range of a punish if you shielded it, leading people to believe that Ganon had a very safe approach. But if you simply dashed away from the fair, you would not be effected by shield-stun and could easily dash-dance back and land an aerial. Bad news for Ganon when people realized this.

 

[Doctor X]

since lucas has no good options for recovering high and bowser's getup attack covering every option that lucas has for recovering, which is a luxury that no other character has access to vs lucas.

Do you not play against people who know how to jump from a ledge and hit you with an aerial? I know Sethlon does, and I could swear I just saw a video of him doing it to you. Why does this not register in your brainspaces?

Lucas dies offstage. Badly. I don't know if anybody here can truly argue with this. I didn't even expect anybody to argue with this when I made the thread; I thought it was a given. >.>

What Lucas needs to offset this is stage presence. That's why I'm asking for ways to improve stage presence, not recovery. His recovery is a lost cause for the most part.

 

[Oracle]

That attitude is really unhealthy. Roy is supposed to die once he gets offstage too but sethlon still gets back on stage vs good players. Have you taken into account maybe you just arent good at recovering?

 

[Doctor X]

That attitude is really unhealthy.

Denying your character's weaknesses is what's really unhealthy. :\

Roy is supposed to die once he gets offstage too but sethlon still gets back on stage vs good players.

Roy suffers from a short recovery, but not necessarily a terrible one. If he goes low there's still a potential mixup. You can start the up-B early and try to land on the stage, or you fall a tiny bit lower and sweetspot. Your opponent can't always cover both options well enough, especially considering the hitbox on Roy's up-B. Without invincibility shenanigans it can be really hard to ledgehop bair without getting hit out of it. Often times people are simply just not fast enough to react to the choice that you make, and you get back on. Most low recoveries work like this, including Marth's which is only better because it reaches higher.

Lucas doesn't have this mixup. Your opponent knows whether or not you're going to sweetspot based on where you initiated PKT1 in the air. If you're too low to get to the stage, all they have to do is roll off the edge. and you die. If you're too high to sweetspot, all they have to do is jump off the ledge and hit you-- either before or after the PKT2-- with almost any move. PKT2 has very small hitboxes that can easily be beaten by most moves, and until you initiate it by hitting yourself with the PKT1, you're completely vulnerable.

The snake is the only potential saving grace here, but it can literally go nowhere but to the edge, and having no invincibility once it tethers is a damning limitation. Any move, literally any move that reaches below the stage-- done from either on-stage or from the ledge-- will kill you if your opponent doesn't mistime it, and the timing is very, very easy.

This is why Sethlon killed you in that match, and there is no amount of technical ability or hand temperature that would really change this.

Edit: Also, for completeness, let me add one more option. Lucas can potentially create a recovery mix-up with PKT2 if and only if the stage has a wall below the edge. If you initiate PKT1 at the right height and know the proper angle, you leave yourself the possibility of either going straight up and landing on the stage, or shooting yourself into the wall and sliding up it for a sweetspot.

Fox is known for doing this, and I do believe it was one of the few things that saved him from being completely screwed below the stage. Fox doesn't have to telegraph which choice he will make, however. The opponent can't see what direction Fox inputted for his Firefox, but they can plainly see where your PKT1 is going. It will be very, very hard to simultaneously trick your opponent and get the correct angle for a sweetspot in this situation. It could happen, though, so I guess it helps.

Have you taken into account maybe you just arent good at recovering?

Actually yeah, yeah I have, and I've tended to get better at recovering with most characters as I play them-- by necessity, because Overswarm murders my **** if I don't. For Lucas I've not been able to make any headway whatsoever because there isn't much for him to get better at as far as recovery is concerned. He can cover distance, but he can't reliably get past even a mediocre edgeuard.

Does anybody besides 1-winged here think this isn't true?

 

[Oro?!]

I think bowser may have the easiest/best edge guarding in the game vs Lucas. you cannot tether or recover low. period. overall its a bad recovery that, as much as i hate this phrase, scales more with skill /knowledge than a lot of others. That being said anyone can get lucky and guess where you will pkt and just eat it.

 

[Overswarm]

I think bowser may have the easiest/best edge guarding in the game vs Lucas. you cannot tether or recover low. period. overall its a bad recovery that, as much as i hate this phrase, scales more with skill /knowledge than a lot of others. That being said anyone can get lucky and guess where you will pkt and just eat it.

PKT is slow enough to where I don't have to guess. I just watch.

You guys mention Bowser a lot like that's the only character I play against him, but it isn't. I've played a decent amount of the cast and it's just the same solution to the same problem done in slightly different ways.

Gonna tether? Throw out an aerial from the ledge where he will appear once he's tethered. Tap him, he falls, he PKTs, hit him again, grab the ledge, wait, roll. /dead

 

[Oracle]

I rarely get gimped with my lucas playing against a lot of good players with good characters. Guess they all just suck eh?

All of your arguments exist only in theory, which isn't as applicable to real play as you would think. Yes, PKT is bad but the snake is what salvages his recovery. In theory, if they force you to pkt then you're boned, but unless your DI sucks you shouldn't have to pkt that often. He has plenty of tools to mix up his recovery and the fact that you guys don't realize this shows how little you understand about this character. Oro's note about scaling with skill pretty much hits the nail on the head. Notice how he feels differently than you two because he's played a good lucas before.

 

[Oro?!]

*Sigh* OS you are very hard to reason with. You are talking about basically just your personal experience vs 1 player. While you claim to play several characters vs Lucas, you still play Bowser in the majority I would assume. Playing a counterpick matchup can definitely skew your opinion of a character on the whole. What I said I drew from playing multiple Lucas players of varying skill levels with the majority of the cast. When I make a judgement of a character, I try to be as impartial as possible to remove my own biases. You are treating Lucas as if he is forced to recovery low and within a double jump or a fall off from the ledge aerial distance PKT.

 

[Doctor X]

I rarely get gimped with my lucas playing against a lot of good players with good characters. Guess they all just suck eh

Maybe they do. Again, no offense to them-- I'm sure they're amazing players in many respects-- but edgeguarding is one of those things that very few people are nearly as proficient with as they could be. That's part of the reason why Armada destroyed almost everyone in the US when he came over here, and why his dominance almost completely rewrote what's considered the "best" way to edgeguard with Peach, even this late into the game's lifespan. The same could be said of M2K's Marth in 2007, before people realized to never, ever, ever let him send you offstage. Otherwise amazing players who weren't used to their brutal efficiency would lose stock, after stock and wonder what the hell they can possibly do besides stay on stage at all costs.

Did you ever watch either of these guys play? I can't imagine either of them letting Lucas back onto the stage if Lucas is forced to snake or pkt2. He's easier to edgeguard than Falco, and Falco almost never got back to the stage against either of these players. They would kill you every single time, barring tournament nerves getting in the way.

All of your arguments exist only in theory, which isn't as applicable to real play as you would think.

Yes, it is. It is very applicable. The only time theory doesn't apply is when people-- like yourself-- try to ignore it and continue playing like it isn't there. Smart players look at move properties and do everything they can to abuse strengths and weaknesses, and they will destroy people who do not. M2K's dominance is based almost entirely in this. The guy sits down in training mode and investigates every single hitbox, every single possible DI path at almost every single reasonable percent, and every single bit of frame data. He finds what works and uses it, and punishes the living hell of people who don't.

Believe it or not, man, this is why M2K wins. Not because he is technical, but because he is both efficient and knowledgeable.

Yes, PKT is bad but the snake is what salvages his recovery.

No, it doesn't. This point has been made multiple times, and you can't just say "nuh-uh, you're wrong" without providing some kind of reasoning. "You just don't understand!" is not reasoning.

In theory, if they force you to pkt then you're boned, but unless your DI sucks you shouldn't have to pkt that often. He has plenty of tools to mix up his recovery and the fact that you guys don't realize this shows how little you understand about this character.

"Plenty of tools" is still vague. I'd like you to name one tool that has not already been addressed and explain to me why it really matters. If you can't do this I'd like you to stop talking about recovery so the discussion can move on.

Oro's note about scaling with skill pretty much hits the nail on the head. Notice how he feels differently than you two because he's played a good lucas before.

He also called the recovery bad, and for that I see him as capable of being realistic here. I appreciate his input, even if it does on some level tell me to "just play better," because he's not asked me or anyone else to ignore the damning move properties that will hold this character back because I "just don't understand."

Falco's recovery scales a bit with skill, as well. There are ways of tricking people-- cancelling your forward-B, autosweetspot from above the edge, sliding up the stage as noted for Fox-- but they stop working when your opponent has a clear head and practiced reactions, and manages to force you into a position where these tricks are not possible.

 

[Burnsy]

The snake is the only potential saving grace here, but it can literally go nowhere but to the edge, and having no invincibility once it tethers is a damning limitation. Any move, literally any move that reaches below the stage-- done from either on-stage or from the ledge-- will kill you if your opponent doesn't mistime it, and the timing is very, very easy.

This is why Sethlon killed you in that match, and there is no amount of technical ability or hand temperature that would really change this.

Actually, this isn't true and I have tried to explain this, both in the general discussion and in this thread to you an OS specifically.

When Lucas tethers, it takes the snake 2 (maybe 3) frames to snag the ledge no matter where Lucas recovers from. Once the snake has attached, it only takes 1 frame to detach (tap down once quickly), putting him in a neutral aerial position and therefore granting him another airdodge immediately (many directions to choose from). Lucas airdodges, he gains access to invulnerability on the 2nd frame of his dodge. He can use four offstage airdodges in this way.

~2(or 3) + 1 + 1 = 4 to 5 frames of unavoidable vulnerability, but that's it. The rest of the time you can enjoy airdodge invulnerability. The nice thing about this mix-up is that you can screw with the timing of your actions, and also which directions you actually airdodge. Detaching, airdodging, and re-tethering could be used directly to avoid incoming tether gimps.

It also is useful because you can abuse the multiple airdodges you gain from this trick to put yourself underneath the ledge, yet within sweetspot range, essentially allowing you to detach rather than "reel in" to sweetspot the edge, rather than having Lucas' vulnerable head pop over the edge for ~2 frames as usual (makes easy Marth d-tilt gimps that were possible before useless)

 

[Doctor X]

Actually, this isn't true and I have tried to explain this, both in the general discussion and in this thread to you an OS specifically.

When Lucas tethers, it takes the snake 2 (maybe 3) frames to snag the ledge no matter where Lucas recovers from. Once the snake has attached, it only takes 1 frame to detach (tap down once quickly), putting him in a neutral aerial position and therefore granting him another airdodge immediately (many directions to choose from). Lucas airdodges, he gains access to invulnerability on the 2nd frame of his dodge.

~2(or 3) + 1 + 1 = 4 to 5 frames of unavoidable vulnerability, but that's it. The rest of the time you can enjoy airdodge invulnerability. The nice thing about this mix-up is that you can screw with the timing of your actions, and also which directions you actually airdodge. Detaching, airdodging, and re-tethering could be used directly to avoid incoming tether gimps.

It also is useful because you can abuse the multiple airdodges you gain from this trick to put yourself underneath the ledge, yet within sweetspot range, essentially allowing you to detach rather than "reel in" to sweetspot the edge without having Lucas head pop over the edge (makes easy Marth d-tilt gimps that were possible before useless)

Very cool, Burnsy. Thank you. I saw this being mentioned but I did not see it as being so helpful without more specifics.

This is what I mean by "prove me wrong." Please do this more, guys. That's what this discussion is for.

 

[Burnsy]

It feels more like a place for you and OS to complain about things you haven't really invested much time into, honestly.

 

[Doctor X]

It feels more like a place for you and OS to complain about things you haven't really invested much time into, honestly.

Why reduce arguments when you can, you know, post useful things?

Edit: Let me add a question. Do either of you guys understand the purpose of "devil's advocate?"

I won't say I'm playing devil's advocate here because I really do think Lucas is bad, but whether or not I'm correct the argument enriches understanding of the subject. Stop letting emotional responses to people saying things you don't like cloud your reasoning here. You won't prove me wrong that way.

 

[Burnsy]

I expected a response like this, but my point is that the information is out there. I'm no longer going to be fetching it for you, this thread sucks.

 

[Doctor X]

Is "fetching it for you" is how you describe putting the information into a well-detailed post aimed at addressing a specific concern, rather than expecting absolutely everybody in the community to figure it out for themselves?

How do you expect the PMBR to construct their understanding of Lucas? Do you want every one of them to have to play Lucas in tournament for a long period of time? Do you want them to have to dig through disorganized, unfocused general discussion threads, or would you rather have the potential concerns addressed in a more direct fashion?

Do you realize how people have come to firmly establish almost everything there is to know about smash? They do it by arguing move properties, and then applying what's gleaned in those arguments to their play. Whether you know it or not, you already do it in your General Discussion thread. You just aren't as direct and have a tendency to get diverted before things are really discussed.

 

[Overswarm]

I rarely get gimped with my lucas playing against a lot of good players with good characters. Guess they all just suck eh?

All of your arguments exist only in theory, which isn't as applicable to real play as you would think. Yes, PKT is bad but the snake is what salvages his recovery. In theory, if they force you to pkt then you're boned, but unless your DI sucks you shouldn't have to pkt that often. He has plenty of tools to mix up his recovery and the fact that you guys don't realize this shows how little you understand about this character. Oro's note about scaling with skill pretty much hits the nail on the head. Notice how he feels differently than you two because he's played a good lucas before.

It's likely they are playing incorrectly, yes. The snake shouldn't reliably get you back to the stage against anyone with an offstage presence whatseoever. So far I have seen no video evidence ever that illustrates this accurately in your favor.

This is a case of you saying "it's like this guys"

and then this happening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...feature=player_detailpage&v=yUq2VSRaZoA#t=30s

and you believing that your ability with Lucas, rather than Sethlon's mistake, got you back to the stage.

Sethlon missed.

He, you, I, and everyone else knew exactly what you were going to do because it was your only option. Being able to stuff that option means Lucas can't recover in that manner. If it's his only option, he's boned.

Like so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...feature=player_detailpage&v=yUq2VSRaZoA#t=59s

and again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...feature=player_detailpage&v=yUq2VSRaZoA#t=82s

The second one's the real kicker. Why do you think he threw out that bair? Do you think that with more experience against Lucas that people will do that more or less?

The snake tether isn't long enough or unpredictable enough to be used with the confidence that you made the right call. You have to either use it when they aren't in a position to punish or simply hope they mess up. Since Lucas doesn't have a very good way to make sure they aren't in the right position other than a dangerous down+b stall (given how close you have to be for the snake), it makes just hitting Lucas when he would be using his tether an attractive option.

When Lucas tethers, it takes the snake 2 (maybe 3) frames to snag the ledge no matter where Lucas recovers from.

It's the same with Ivysaur I believe: 1-3 frames. The issue is that when you tether you automatically occupy an obvious location. If a hitbox is already there, you get hit. Just throw out any reliably meaty attack (or even non-meaty, really) and it taps tethers out of their recovery. I think you can actually see on video me up+bing off stage and grabbing the ledge out of it, deliberately to knock Dr. X out of his tether because I know it's coming.

1-3 frames sounds fast, but it doesn't work out that way because they get to watch Lucas slowly float towards where he's about to tether and often get to watch his air dodge (which is a HUGE cue).


"But wait, the air dodge makes him invincible!"

And that's bad. It doesn't help his recovery in the slightest because all I have to do is throw out an attack at an invincible target and when he's out of the invincibility, hit him.

But even without the air dodge, it's still obvious what he's going to do and if he DOESN'T do it then he has to PKT and is in danger anyway!

Look at that. The snake is out, attempting to attach to the ledge and reel him in. He then dies. It's not a "if the tether grabs the ledge I'm home free" situation.

Could you not imagine Bowser flames filling that area?
Sheik's nair? Fox's bair? Kirby dair? ROB bair? Wario's nair?

It doesn't have to be a strong hit to force PKT.

It also doesn't help that you can just hang on the ledge and force them to do a ledgehop, but there are some mixups with that at least.

*Sigh* OS you are very hard to reason with. You are talking about basically just your personal experience vs 1 player. While you claim to play several characters vs Lucas, you still play Bowser in the majority I would assume. Playing a counterpick matchup can definitely skew your opinion of a character on the whole. What I said I drew from playing multiple Lucas players of varying skill levels with the majority of the cast. When I make a judgement of a character, I try to be as impartial as possible to remove my own biases. You are treating Lucas as if he is forced to recovery low and within a double jump or a fall off from the ledge aerial distance PKT.

Not really, I play a variety of characters in friendlies. I try to keep up with my Bowser but generally don't play him for too long unless I haven't picked him up in a while.

You're also misjudging where I'm coming from. I'm not judging Dr. X's play, but the limitations of his character. Judging recovery is an important part of a character and it isn't particularly hard to do. If he was playing Captain Falcon I wouldn't say "oh, you just need to improve and not get hit by off stage fairs; Falcon's recovery is fine" when Captian's recovery is obvioulsy bad. Demonstrated easily, too... but you don't have to because the writing is on the wall. Falcon doesn't damage his opponent easily out of his up+b, the trajectory is easily followed due to its limitations, it's slow enough to be reacted to, Falcon falls quickly which exacerbates the issue, and the distance is low both horizontally and vertically and due to all this it is generally easy to guess the relative area that Falcon is going to be in. If he loses his second jump, he has no tricks left whatsoever.


Lucas has one of the worst recoveries in the game at this point in time and the more we discuss this the more people say "Okay, well he can't PKT back to the stage reliably" and move on to "just tether", but we've already seen the first signs of that not being effective. There are no tools available in Lucas arsenal that make recovering from the midpoint to below the stage easier. Recovering from above is still dangerous as always, but doesn't result in immediate peril. That's the sign of a bad recovery in a game where people want to, and do, hit you down and out.

 

[Oro?!]

A lot of us PMBR read everything. Just sayin.

@OS- I'm done debating. I've already said it's a bad recovery but you make it sound like every time Lucas get's hit offstage he should die, but he won't. In super theory bros this is basically true for every single character except maybe Puff. Real matches aren't super theory bros though so you should expect a lucas to have a couple more angles/options that might be good against certain characters/edgegaurd attempts. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.