Toon Zelda Support Thread: Hope Springs Eternal

[Diddy Kong]

Oh since when is the Phantom an Assist Trophy? Weird it didn't get any mentoin like the other ATs huh?

It's most likely a new move for Zelda. And even if it's not, the fact Phantom appears and there's no Toon Zelda is already really bad news for Toon Zelda.

Phantom Zelda was the only playable Zelda ever. Keep saying 'Expect what has been done before' it doesn't change anything.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Little known fact: Tetra was just about the first Zelda character to be fully voice acted, in the Tetra's Trackers which was exclusive to the Japanese version of Four Swords Adventure (That one that would be perfect for the WiiU if it supported multiple pads)

 

[Maffewt]

Little known fact: Tetra was just about the first Zelda character to be fully voice acted, in the Tetra's Trackers which was exclusive to the Japanese version of Four Swords Adventure (That one that would be perfect for the WiiU if it supported multiple pads)

That's actually kinda a big deal.
And I'd forgotten she had her own game; that's a huge one. She'd be so right it's frustrating ><

 

[Aurora Jenny]

Hi guys. Dropping in. I was over in the Zelda subforum checking out the arguments over the Phantom... and geez, it got nasty, but a lot of good things were said.... and most of the arguments were made FOR Adult Zelda, I pulled a Phoenix Wright and turned things around.

1. Link and Toon Link both using the same weaponry, and Zelda is using moves taken from many of the other Zelda games. My response:

"That's just it while Link and Toon Link DO share the same movesets, all of Toon Link's tools are based on his respective game, while Link has the designs found in the TP timeline. As said before in the thread, Sakurai has pretty much made it clear that the WW timeline and TP timeline are kept separate. Zelda does indeed draw from other games, but all of said stuff comes from along that timeline. If we were to get a Toon Zelda, all of her stuff would come from the WW-side of things all the way from WW to ST. That said....

2. Phantom: Windwaker vs Twilight Princess. There was a big brouhaha about whether or not said Phantom is made in the style of Toon or Twilight, the main focus being the lower half of the body.

As far as the Phantom goes, it's really dependent on what style it/she is reflecting. Which is what I assume sparked the whole style debate I saw a few pages back. Something I didn't see mentioned, that foot you pointed out as more human rather than bootlike, you DID notice that the shield cuts off our view of it, right? Makes it look like a normal foot in doing so. It could still very well have the stubby feet from before as we can't see tell what the right foot looks like because we're looking at it from the top.

3. Now I went from Point A to Point B to Point C here, and I freely admit Point B is the weak point of my counterargument, and instead of arguing for Toon Zelda, would work for Adult Zelda instead. Take as you will of it.

Anyhow, let's see... what else was said? Oh yes. Anjean summoning a Phantom, a very good point, showing that it CAN be learned somehow. See my starting point, this would be something for the Toon Zelda to borrow and use, NOT the adult one, and it WOULD explain why we see a Phantom with the 'possessed' color scheme but no glowing eyes.

All this and assuming we're not all being made fools of and that Phantom is an Assist Trophy."

Anyhow, all that said, feel free to address any fallacies here. I am of course, in support of this character and strongly think some form of the WW timeline Princess will appear, be it Tetra or Toon Zelda.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Could Tetra be a reverse Wolf-type character, where she has identical normal attacks to Toon Link but different Special Moves?

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

Little known fact: Tetra was just about the first Zelda character to be fully voice acted, in the Tetra's Trackers which was exclusive to the Japanese version of Four Swords Adventure (That one that would be perfect for the WiiU if it supported multiple pads)

You could always make it online multiplayer...hope for a WiiWare release, I guess.

 

[praline]

I'm pretty sure Toon Zelda/Tetra is a shoe in. She was gonna be in Brawl after all.

 

[Dropkick JD]

Man, all I want to see is Tetra. Period. I know it's the Toon Zelda thread, but damn. If we can't have Sheik, AT LEAST give us Tetra.

Might want to add that to the OP. Found it by artist MetalPhantonDelta on Deviant Art. I'll also suggest they add it to the Tetra support thread.

 

[Aurora Jenny]

No one has anything to say about my speculation up there?

 

[TheTuninator]

Toon Zelda / Phantom Knight as an actual tag character makes a lot of sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see them in SSB4. I'd definitely prefer that tag over Toon Zelda / Tetra. Having one half of the tag be a big, hulking knight would do wonders to set Toon Zelda apart from her older version.

The Knight's still most likely an AT, but a character's definitely possible. I can't believe I didn't consider that possibility earlier.

 

[n88]

Oh man, I thought this thread died a long time ago. Cool to see there are still some people holding out hope, despite Phantom Knight Zelda showing up in some worryingly unexplained capacity.

 

[Curious Villager]

Oh man, I thought this thread died a long time ago. Cool to see there are still some people holding out hope, despite Phantom Knight Zelda showing up in some worryingly unexplained capacity.

Well all that Phantom could confirm is that Toon Zelda would probably not be using it as her transformation or final smash if she were to be made playable. However seeing as how Sakurai pulled a red herring with the boxing ring stage and conductor Link. I wouldn't put it past him if he secretly gave Toon Zelda a sneaky early reveal and that Phantom is actually her transformation/final smash as he hasn't really confirmed what that Phantom's purpose really is yet. But who knows really, this is just speculation on my part after all.... :/

We really could do with some more info regarding that Phantom.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

If Phantom Zelda somehow ends up playable (which I would love), she should definitely be the next character to make use of DK's "carrying" ability.

 

[n88]

I won't claim to know the mind of Sakurai, but it seems really doubtful to me that he'd stealth-reveal a newcomer like that, especially with the fanfare all the newcomers are getting (trailers, posters, double-wide icons on the Dojo). If anyone can cite a precedent for him pulling that kind of trick, I might be more willing to believe he's done it here, but I really doubt he's done anything of the sort in the past. I think Phantom as some kind of transformation or playable character is way, way out there on the fringe of possibilities. I'm not taking the prospect seriously, but I won't go so far as to claim impossibility because a) there are no rules for what Sakurai's doing and b) fortune, whatever anyone else has told you, favors taking great big dumps on the bold.

The first (non-marginal) possibility: Phantom is a new move, some kind of summon or even a Luma/Pikmin-esque partner for Zelda. This best suits the manner of the reveal (stuck in a Zelda screenshot with no explanation or fanfare), but my problem with this idea is that in all the Zelda screenshots (of which we've seen a decent few), we've seen the Phantom just once. The other newcomers to get significant changes, Pit and Bowser? Those guys had their changes put on parade. Why would Sakurai neglect to let us in on such a big change to Zelda's moveset? This goes double when you remember that he's been emphasizing uniqueness of movesets in his character choices. We have what would certainly be a major change for Zelda (especially if the Phantom summon would replace the Sheik transformation in this scenario!) and depending on the extent of the Phantom's implementation, possibly make Zelda quite unique indeed. I can't see why that would just be glossed over.
Also of note: The Phantom having the Zelda coloration is probably not coincidence.

And the second possibility: Phantom is an Assist Trophy. This works in every way except for the manner of the reveal, which is inconsistent with the other AT reveals. Although I believe we've also seen Starfy (most likely also an AT) pop up in a screenshot without context or explanation. There's some wiggle room here.
Also of note: Zelda's pose from the Phantom screenshot is seen in another screenshot with no Phantom in sight.

I don't know exactly what's going on with the Phantom, but it doesn't much matter for the purposes of Toon Zelda. Here's why:

• Case 1: The Phantom is part of Zelda's moveset. If we get Toon Zelda, she'll almost certainly be a clone of Zelda (if Toon Link is anything to go by) and would also have the Phantom move. Phantom-summoning makes every bit as much sense on Toon Zelda as it does on adult Zelda, if not more, since the Phantom is based on something from a toon game.
• Case 2: The Phantom is an Assist Trophy. We've already seen that Toon Link can be a stage element and a fighter at the same time. Any good reason Toon Zelda couldn't appear as a playable character and have an Assist Trophy that is also kinda ambiguously Toon Zelda? Nope. No reason at all.

In conclusion, the Phantom's appearance has no bearing on Toon Zelda's likelihood as a fighter, though Sakurai's previously mentioned preference for unique newcomers does put a damper on things. At the very least, Phantom showing up does guarantee that Toon Zelda is getting something of a nod, which is cool.

 

[Curious Villager]

True, Although the possibility I find the most doubtful is the Phantom being a part of Zelda's moveset. She has been revealed to still have Din's Fire and Farore's Wind and some speculate that she still has Nayru's Love in one of the screenshots too. So that only leaves Sheik's transformation in the unknown.

However, when Sakurai stated about how he isn't willing to purposely cut any characters out of the way and expressing his dislike for cuts overall. I find it highly doubtful that he will just be getting rid of Sheik like that. Hence why I'm very skeptical of it being a part of Zelda's moves. Not to mention that Zelda and Sheik have always been revealed separately since Melee.

So I personally feel that Sheik is most likely safe and that Sakurai wouldn't just cut her out of the way. At least not on purpose.

Another thing in regards to Zelda's pose is that some have found that it bears a slight resemblance to her pose after she has revealed an assist trophy, it's not an exact replica but it's pretty similar nonetheless. Not to mention that some assist trophies jump straight up into the air once released which could explain the absence of any assist trophies in the other screenshot.

Hence why I'm probably leaning more towards the Phantom being an assist trophy at the most.

The Phantom being her final smash is just a hunch in case of the off chance we are having another Punch Out!! type of deal on our hands. Which is most probably not the case I agree. And it most probably won't really be affecting her chances eitherway as it seems to be just a dead normal Phantom for now.

 

[Sharkarat]

I think Phantom being her Final Smash is very unlikely, seeing that Light Arrow is Zelda's most reoccuring ability and replacing it would make little sense.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'm talking about Toon Zelda's Final Smash, not Zelda's. Guess I should have clarified that....

But yeah, she would probably get Light Arrows too by the way things seem to look like. :T

 

[Jigglypuff & Luma]

Wait shouldn't Toon Zelda and Tetra be paired like Zelda and Sheik

 

[Curious Villager]

Wait shouldn't Toon Zelda and Tetra be paired like Zelda and Sheik

It would make the most sense yeah.

But since Toon Zelda is a bit of a touchy subject among the Smash community, most apparently expect either Tetra on her own or Toon Zelda being accompanied with Toon Sheik. Both scenario's being pretty unlikely imo.

 

[Bowserlick]

Everyone has a character that would disappoint them. For many it is Mii or Pac-Man. For me it is Toon Zelda.

 

[BluePikmin11]

To me, any newcomer that is a semi-clone is laziness in general, but I wouldn't mind Toon Zelda.

 

[Jigglypuff & Luma]

It would make the most sense yeah.

But since Toon Zelda is a bit of a touchy subject among the Smash community, most apparently expect either Tetra on her own or Toon Zelda being accompanied with Toon Sheik. Both scenario's being pretty unlikely imo.

I think Toon Zelda/Tetra have a higher chance than Tetra solo or Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik because Tetra is Toon Zelda and it will help make her less of a clone of Zelda/Sheik, Toon Zelda/Tetra are still in my prediction roster.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Toon Zelda/Tetra have a higher chance than Tetra solo or Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik because Tetra is Toon Zelda and it will help make her less of a clone of Zelda/Sheik, Toon Zelda/Tetra are still in my prediction roster.

I agree with you. To be fair, I think Toon Zelda gets a bit too much flack than she probably deserves and people seem to heavily underestimate her chances. Due to Sakurai's stance in regards to the Toon characters and their shorter leg span and Zelda does have a number of kicking related moves even moreso than Link does. So I'd predict Toon Zelda to be at worst a semi clone but most expect her to be full out clone or something to that effect. She'd probably be one of the later characters included though.

With that said though, Tetra would probably be one of the last more unique characters to include I guess so the both of them can be worked on.

 

[n88]

To me, any newcomer that is a semi-clone is laziness in general, but I wouldn't mind Toon Zelda.

Clones aren't lazy. They're less work to implement than a fully unique fighter, true. But at no point in the production of Melee did the following happen:

[Fade in on exterior shot of Nintendo Headquarters]
[Switch to interior view: SAKURAI and several cubicle drones are gathered around a table, looking weary]
DEVELOPER ONE: This Ganondorf moveset is really hard to make.
SAKURAI: I've got it! We'll just give him Captain Falcon's moveset and take the rest of the month off! *laughs*
[Developers stand up and cheer. Confetti falls from ceiling. Nintendo executives swarm into the meeting room and carry Sakurai out on their shoulders]

If that was the way it worked, then yeah, clones would be pretty lazy. But a cloned (or semi-cloned) character has never shown up on the roster in place of a unique character. In Melee, Sakurai included some five clones instead of one unique character, because it was the same amount of work. Personally, I would prefer Sakurai stick to that model when it came to last-minute additions, but all the undeserved clone backlash makes it seem doubtful that he will. He certainly strayed away from that formula in Brawl, with Lucas being the closest thing to a new clone.

 

[Curious Villager]

Clones aren't lazy. They're less work to implement than a fully unique fighter, true. But at no point in the production of Melee did the following happen:

[Fade in on exterior shot of Nintendo Headquarters]
[Switch to interior view: SAKURAI and several cubicle drones are gathered around a table, looking weary]
DEVELOPER ONE: This Ganondorf moveset is really hard to make.
SAKURAI: I've got it! We'll just give him Captain Falcon's moveset and take the rest of the month off! *laughs*
[Developers stand up and cheer. Confetti falls from ceiling. Nintendo executives swarm into the meeting room and carry Sakurai out on their shoulders]

If that was the way it worked, then yeah, clones would be pretty lazy. But a cloned (or semi-cloned) character has never shown up on the roster in place of a unique character. In Melee, Sakurai included some five clones instead of one unique character, because it was the same amount of work. Personally, I would prefer Sakurai stick to that model when it came to last-minute additions, but all the undeserved clone backlash makes it seem doubtful that he will. He certainly strayed away from that formula in Brawl, with Lucas being the closest thing to a new clone.

Actually some of the "forbidden seven" cast did seem like last minute clone/semi clone additions. So it does seem that Sakurai was planning to bring in a few more clones/semi-clones as soon as he was done with the more unique cast members. But he couldn't implement them due to time constraints. (Most likely due to Sonic's late inclusion which also costed Mewtwo's inclusion)

So in a sense, he does seem to work on this model of getting the more unique characters done, and save the semi clones for when there is still some time left but not enough for one more unique character. He did also say that he is trying to include as many characters into the game as he can so I wouldn't be too surprised if he tried to squeeze in one or two more semi clones in the last minute of development.

 

[Cpt.]

Always thought T. Zelda was the most likely new Zelda rep. Add me to supporters.

 

[n88]

Actually some of the "forbidden seven" cast did seem like last minute clone/semi clone additions. So it does seem that Sakurai was planning to bring in a few more clones/semi-clones as soon as he was done with the more unique cast members. But he couldn't implement them due to time constraints. (Most likely due to Sonic's late inclusion which also costed Mewtwo's inclusion)

So in a sense, he does seem to work on this model of getting the more unique characters done, and save the semi clones for when there is still some time left but not enough for one more unique character. He did also say that he is trying to include as many characters into the game as he can so I wouldn't be too surprised if he tried to squeeze in one or two more semi clones in the last minute of development.

Yeah, solid point there; he may well have been trying to do the clone rush with Brawl. We'll have to see how it shakes out this time. I'm hoping he gets the opportunity to throw some clones into the mix.

 

[Daffid]

I'd like to just point out that Shiek doesn't even exist outside of Ocarina of Time...

 

[Cpt.]

I'd like to just point out that Shiek doesn't even exist outside of Ocarina of Time...

Well she was supposed to be in Twilight Princess.

 

[thedoctr11]

Well she was supposed to be in Twilight Princess.

From the Official Hyrule Historia pg. 174 "The pictures at the bottom right represent what Zelda from Twilight Princess would look like if she transformed into Sheik. They were drawn for Super Smash Bros. Brawl."
Not for TP for Brawl.

But onto the TZ. I love the idea of Toon Zelda/Tetra. Doesn't even have to be a clone or Semi-Clone. We'll see what Sakurai has up his sleeve soon enough.

 

[Curious Villager]

From the Official Hyrule Historia pg. 174 "The pictures at the bottom right represent what Zelda from Twilight Princess would look like if she transformed into Sheik. They were drawn for Super Smash Bros. Brawl."
Not for TP for Brawl.

Actually now that you mention it. Has the Zelda team ever released any concept art of a "Toon Sheik" before? I mean if Sakurai seriously considered having both a Twilight Princess and Wind Waker version of Sheik for Brawl and they released the Twilight Princess concept art then where is the Wind Waker concept art? I don't believe they had ever shown it within Hyrule Historia did they? I would have assumed they would have been drawn up sometime early during development no? :/

 

[TheMysterious2634]

OHHHHHHH! To transform, Tetra should have a splash of water go over her.

 

[Jigglypuff & Luma]

Toon Sheik doesn't really exist except in Brawl (she was one of the forbidden 7) so Tetra will give more sense because she exists, she is the same person as Toon Zelda and she helps make Toon Zelda unique as I said before

 

[thedoctr11]

Actually now that you mention it. Has the Zelda team ever released any concept art of a "Toon Sheik" before? I mean if Sakurai seriously considered having both a Twilight Princess and Wind Waker version of Sheik for Brawl and they released the Twilight Princess concept art then where is the Wind Waker concept art? I don't believe they had ever shown it within Hyrule Historia did they? I would have assumed they would have been drawn up sometime early during development no? :/

I couldn't find any evidence of a Toon Sheik in the Hyrule Historia. Possibly they planned or drew up ideas for one but who knows.

 

[Reila]

If we get "Toon Sheik" over Tetra (or Phantom Zelda), I will (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

...ahem, put me on the supporters list, please? :3

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If we get "Toon Sheik" over Tetra (or Phantom Zelda), I will (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

...ahem, put me on the supporters list, please? :3

I want you to record that table flip if that's the case.

 

[n88]

If we get "Toon Sheik" over Tetra (or Phantom Zelda), I will (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

...ahem, put me on the supporters list, please? :3

I'm pretty confident that we'll never see Toon Sheik. On the Brawl Dojo, Sakurai specifically mentions replacing Link's kicks with sword slashes for Toon Link. (Scroll down a bit for an image). That's right, the toon model is considered incapable of handling that wimpy little sex kick. Hitting up the SSBWiki, Sheik's kicking moves include all of her tilts, two smashes, three throws and four aerials (as well as her ledge and prone attacks). And there's a lot of stuff with her legs going over her head and suchlike in there. That's about half of her moveset that's not really workable at the toon scale. So if she can't even really be a proper clone thrown in at the last minute, why would Sakurai bother inventing Toon Sheik? I really don't think he would.

Also, I haven't been running a list of supporters. Should I start one, I'll throw you on.

 

[Cpt.]

If we get "Toon Sheik" over Tetra (or Phantom Zelda), I will (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

...ahem, put me on the supporters list, please? :3

So many same

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

 

[Curious Villager]

I couldn't find any evidence of a Toon Sheik in the Hyrule Historia. Possibly they planned or drew up ideas for one but who knows.

Perhaps.... I would have thought they would have shown their depiction of a Wind Waker Sheik too in that book. Even if she was never even considered for Wind Waker....

I'm pretty confident that we'll never see Toon Sheik. On the Brawl Dojo, Sakurai specifically mentions replacing Link's kicks with sword slashes for Toon Link. (Scroll down a bit for an image). That's right, the toon model is considered incapable of handling that wimpy little sex kick. Hitting up the SSBWiki, Sheik's kicking moves include all of her tilts, two smashes, three throws and four aerials (as well as her ledge and prone attacks). And there's a lot of stuff with her legs going over her head and suchlike in there. That's about half of her moveset that's not really workable at the toon scale. So if she can't even really be a proper clone thrown in at the last minute, why would Sakurai bother inventing Toon Sheik? I really don't think he would.

Also, I haven't been running a list of supporters. Should I start one, I'll throw you on.

Yeah that's one of the reasons why I don't really believe Toon Sheik will be a thing. Sheik is one of those characters who have a moveset that is pretty heavily based around performing kicks and such type of moves, which would be very difficult to recreate on a Wind Waker based character without making everything look incredibly awkward as Sakurai addressed. Thus if they would go through the trouble of changing all of those animations and attacks for what is supposed to be merely a last minute semi clone addition. Then they might as well work on Tetra instead. I'd imagine her being one of the last more unique characters the developers would work on anyway so they can work on implementing both her and Toon Zelda into the game after they are done with the majority of the cast.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

Has it ever been considered that maybe "Toon Sheik" was simply a placeholder name? Perhaps Toon Zelda was planned as a last-minute clone, and the dev team never came up with a unique Down Special, or planned to somehow have her transform like Zelda, but never decided how that would have been handled. So "Toon Sheik" was just used as a placeholder name for whatever they decided to have her transform into, in the case that it were decided she'd have a transformation Down Special. Then they likely never got around to this part and didn't change the file name, since they never even got past the preliminary work on Toon Zelda. Not sure how plausible this explanation is, but it's one of the hypothetical scenarios I imagine could have been the case.

Alternatively, maybe they just named it "Toon Sheik" to throw the coding explorers off and have a good laugh from their bafflement.