Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[Deleted member]

Double post because I'm the OP and I have an announcement.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I decided to make this thread a general match-up discussion thread. I know a lot of you guys wanted to stick with weekly match-up discussions, so I apologize for that. We can always go back to the weekly match-up discussions if we need to. And yes, this means customs can be discussed now.

 

[ILJ]

Sheik is not one of our hardest MU by far. I've already beaten Chudat's Sheik with Tink (I still lost the set tho). But after watching a lot of times my replays. I think I know a lot about the MU.

So I'll just wait until it is time to disuss about Sheik.

Trust me, sheik is certainly a hard matchup. I've beaten mvd's and master ravens sheik before but doesn't mean it's easy...it's so hard and I feel there's more to discover about it. I play with mvd all the time.

Chudats sheik sucks though...I've beaten master ravens and mvds before...but it's still very hard. We must discover the MU more.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik is not one of our hardest MU by far. I've already beaten Chudat's Sheik with Tink (I still lost the set tho). But after watching a lot of times my replays. I think I know a lot about the MU.

So I'll just wait until it is time to disuss about Sheik.

I'm curious why you say that about the Sheik match-up. The only thing that comes to mind as an advantage against Sheik aside from obvious advantages is our being able to do all sorts of stuff with utilt strings on Sheik. Other than that, a lot of people consider it one of our worst match-ups if not our worst because of things like Sheik's strong rushdown, ability to outcamp us with needles, near unpunishable moves, take advantage of our terrible recovery better than almost any other character with things like fair>fair and bouncing fish, etc etc etc.

 

[Dɛαd]

Trust me, sheik is certainly a hard matchup. I've beaten mvd's and master ravens sheik before but doesn't mean it's easy...it's so hard and I feel there's more to discover about it. I play with mvd all the time.

Chudats sheik sucks though...I've beaten master ravens and mvds before...but it's still very hard. We must discover the MU more.

I didn't say that was a easy match-up (We have hardest MU than that: Diddy, ROB for example). It's just... complicated to play vs Sheik. Like you said we must discover the MU.

 

[Deleted member]

Been meaning to post this for awhile, but I'm gonna post my full matchup ratio (imo)

Big Advantage (65:35 and onward)
Advantage (60:40)
Slight Advantage (55:45)
Even (50:50)
Slight Disadvantage (45:55)
Disadvantage (40:60)
Big Disadvantage (35:65 and onward)

60:40
50:50
40:60
65:35
45:55
50:50
40:60
50:50
65:35
50:50
60:40
45:55 but can be 40:60
70:30
65:35
50:50
60:40
80:20
65:35
60:40 (80:20 on SV)
50:50
50:50
70:30
35:65
40:60
60:40
60:40
60:40
40:60
?
70:30
60:40
45:55
50:50
45:55
40:60
40:60
50:50
45:55
65:35
40:60
60:40
30:70
40:60
40:60
100:0
40:60 but can go as bad as 35:65 if we lose the lead
40:60
65:35
35:65
55:45
40:60

 

[ILJ]

Been meaning to post this for awhile, but I'm gonna post my full matchup ratio (imo)
60:40
50:50
40:60
65:35
45:55
50:50
35:65 or 40:60 at best
60:40
65:35
50:50 or 40:60
60:40
45:55 but can be 40:60
70:30
65:35
50:50
60:40
80:20
65:35
60:40 (80:20 on SV)
50:50
50:50
70:30
35:65
40:60
65:35
60:40
60:40
40:60
?
70:30
60:40
45:55
50:50
45:55
40:60
40:60
40:60
45:55
65:35
50:50 or 45:55
65:35
30:70
40:60
35:65
100:0
40:60 but can go as bad as 35:65 if we lose the lead
40:60
65:35
35:65
55:45
40:60

I don't agree with many . Diddy Kong isn't that bad if a MU, yoshi is hard but not that bad a well, villager we definitely dominate. Not one villager had ever beaten me in tournament, Luigi we just have to camp and avoid grabs, I'd say 45:55. Sheik more like 35:65. Imo.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Zan- I have to say, there are a few ratios that raised my eyebrow. I solidly agree with you for example that the matchups are advantageous or disadvantageous as the case may be, but I feel that we have a very different understanding of what the numbers actually represent, i.e. I don't think that the differences are that big/pronounced. If you explained what you meant by each ratio, e.g. at the top say '70-30 means 'X'; 80-20 means 'X'' -then I'm also sure that I'd have no issues.

 

[ScotteyF1]

take advantage of our terrible recovery better than almost any other character with things like fair>fair and bouncing fish, etc etc etc.

I've always wondered why people say we have a terrible recovery. When I get knocked as far off screen as possible without being KO'd, I can't think of a time I haven't made it back onto the stage. I'm not saying your wrong, I just fail to see why?

 

[Deleted member]

I've always wondered why people say we have a terrible recovery. When I get knocked as far off screen as possible without being KO'd, I can't think of a time I haven't made it back onto the stage. I'm not saying your wrong, I just fail to see why?

Our recovery is easy to gimp. Without a jump it goes nowhere. It's very linear and especially for sheik and villager its easily gimped.

@Zan- I have to say, there are a few ratios that raised my eyebrow. I solidly agree with you for example that the matchups are advantageous or disadvantageous as the case may be, but I feel that we have a very different understanding of what the numbers actually represent, i.e. I don't think that the differences are that big/pronounced. If you explained what you meant by each ratio, e.g. at the top say '70-30 means 'X'; 80-20 means 'X'' -then I'm also sure that I'd have no issues.

Sorry, meant to include that and I'll edit post

 

[Deleted member]

80:20

I'm really curious what the reasoning is for this, especially since a good Jiggz can gimp us pretty hard with fair.

100:0

Toon Link 2 broke

 

[ILJ]

Playing some of the best sheiks and diddys in the world on a daily basis has led me to believe that the matchups are certainly possible.

Like when I verse mvd's diddy I learned a few things, and guys, mvd is one of the best players in the world:
- camp the heck out of diddy, and when he has a banana, get ready to throw bomb oos.
- always prepare to avoid grabs
-be patient and camp with arrows, bombs, rang

Sheik:
Up tilt combo - 35% guaranteed if you land the second up tilt. She can shield after one up tilt.

Dont lose hope if your behind in damage because you will be against a good sheik. Just avoid being killed by her up smash, bouncing fish, back airs and up airs. She has a problem killing. Bomb combo to fair when the time is right. .

She can fair to jab before we can grab, it beats our grabs. The ONLY way to beat her fair is to up tilt with solid timing. Only sometimes can we grab off her fair, when she spaces out of her own jab range.

-pray before every match

 

[Deleted member]

Playing some of the best sheiks and diddys in the world on a daily basis has led me to believe that the matchups are certainly possible.

Like when I verse mvd's diddy I learned a few things, and guys, mvd is one of the best players in the world:
- camp the heck out of diddy, and when he has a banana, get ready to throw bomb oos.
- always prepare to avoid grabs
-be patient and camp with arrows, bombs, rang

Sheik:
Up tilt combo - 35% guaranteed if you land the second up tilt. She can shield after one up tilt.

Dont lose hope if your behind in damage because you will be against a good sheik. Just avoid being killed by her up smash, bouncing fish, back airs and up airs. She has a problem killing. Bomb combo to fair when the time is right. .

She can fair to jab before we can grab, it beats our grabs. The ONLY way to beat her fair is to up tilt with solid timing. Only sometimes can we grab off her fair, when she spaces out of her own jab range.

-pray before every match

We have to power shield here fair to punish. This is all obvious stuff and I never said the MUs aren't impossible but they aren't good at all.

I'm really curious what the reasoning is for this, especially since a good Jiggz can gimp us pretty hard with fair.

We can out camp and out wall Jiggs way too hard. She doesn't have a solid way to get in on us and she's way too slow

 

[ILJ]

We have to power shield here fair to punish. This is all obvious stuff and I never said the MUs aren't impossible but they aren't good at all.


We can out camp and out wall Jiggs way too hard. She doesn't have a solid way to get in on us and she's way too slow

Power shield fair to what? Curious o.0

 

[Deleted member]

Power shield fair to what? Curious o.0

utilt, spin attack i believe it works

 

[ILJ]

utilt, spin attack i believe it works

I'll test it when I can. I'm assuming our fastest move Will be the best option. Utilt I can see. I've tested up-b oos and it doesn't work. I'm wondering if jab from power shield will work. This is one of her main ways to get in so it's important to see if we can do something of her fair. We will be facing sheik in tournaments a lot.

 

[CHOVI]

Hey guys. A couple of hours ago, I played a good Toon Link in FG. I'd never seen anything like it; he had great stage control and used bombs and boomerang very well.
As a Jigglypuff main, I had no idea how to approach. Sure I could try to dodge everything and look for an opening, but it's really hard :/
Does anyone have any tips? Thank you

 

[Deleted member]

Hey guys. A couple of hours ago, I played a good Toon Link in FG. I'd never seen anything like it; he had great stage control and used bombs and boomerang very well.
As a Jigglypuff main, I had no idea how to approach. Sure I could try to dodge everything and look for an opening, but it's really hard :/
Does anyone have any tips? Thank you

Once Jiggz has gotten Gay off-stage, she's very good at gimping the crap out of him, so focus on getting him off-stage then gimping. You'll probably eat a lot of damage in the process of getting him to a point where you can get him off-stage, but there's bound to be an opening eventually.

 

[CHOVI]

Once Jiggz has gotten Gay off-stage, she's very good at gimping the crap out of him, so focus on getting him off-stage then gimping. You'll probably eat a lot of damage in the process of getting him to a point where you can get him off-stage, but there's bound to be an opening eventually.

Thanks! I'll try :3

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Yoshi or Luigi match-ups?

 

[Mrawesome48]

How do you approach Toon link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat

 

[Fangblade]

How do you approach Toon link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat

Sounds like your speaking of 'For Glory.' If your opponent is running away from you the whole match, there's not much you can do without projectiles of your own. You can try and read a roll. Waiting just outside of his roll range and attacking him. TL's roll is actually pretty bad, so you should be able to catch him w/ a dash attack.

 

[Deleted member]

So the TLBR (Toon Link Back Room) has been coming up with guides for the second post for this thread now, thought I'd post what they've come up with so far. Also, it looks like the ratio for all of these characters will be 50:50.

Bowser Jr. guide #1 by Zan (not really written with the rest of the TLBR and obviously you guys have probably seen it already, but thought I'd mention it)

Bowser Jr. guide #2 by Jash

Spoiler

Pros: Very easy to set up combos.
Has a hard time avoiding Toon Links walls of projectiles.
Does not have any secure option for spaced Zair.
Potentially easy to edge guard.

Most of the time the main approach that Bowser Jr players use is his side B which can only be canceled by jumping, therefore leaving him open the entire time he's on the side B animation. KEEP IN MIND (very important) Bowser Jr's side B is multi-hit boxed mainly when he pulls back and starts spinning, if or when you throw the bomb at the animation where he pulls back, the bomb can potentially go passed him without even hitting him. In this case you have 3 options...
1: Full hop and throw the bomb down.
2: Use another projectile or zair.
3: Slash his ****ing face in.
Getting the kill may be another issue due to his heaviness, although he doesn't have much offstage options to my knowledge so gimping him may be the cure to that Con. Racking up damage is the easy part of this matchup since he is heavy and can be stringed from about 0-60% or more if done correctly. A trick for the Mecha Koopas, these things can be annoying but I usually like to catch them with a short hop fair or nair, for some reason it works easiest.
Stages I would recommend is anything flat like FD, Bowser Jr has tricks on platform stages, avoid Delfino at all cost also Kongo Jungle if legal.

Yoshi guide by Jash

Spoiler

Pros: Builds a strong wall against Yoshi approaches.
Out spaces Yoshi against most of his physical attacks.
Can punish all of Yoshi aerials when he hits the ground.
Quite easy to combo (note from Zan: beware of nair/double jump escapes)

Cons: Gets killed pretty quickly by Yoshi smash attacks.
Out spaced by Yoshi attacks such as fair and fsmash.
Can be difficult dealing with aggressive Yoshi pressure.

This matchup is all about stage control, whoever gets it first will dominate the hardest. That being said it is agreed that Toon Link has an easier time finding stage control over Yoshi slightly. Eggs are usually the first and his greatest option Yoshi has to look for stage control, his other would obviously be running in to attack you with something physical. Toon Link on the other hand has much more diverse ways of approaching and keeping himself safe from approaches.

Tips: Zair is probably the strongest thing we have against eggs, not only piercing through them and completely nullifying the hit box but still having a hit box even after piercing through the eggs.
Yoshi fair has a huge hit box and usually out spaces most of Toon Links moves, it is however very punishable so my suggestion is look out for when he is in the air and power shield his aerials since they are all punishable on shield.
Space him as much as you can, Yoshi has a well balanced close range game that can get out of hand if you are not careful, use projectiles to bait his punishable moves from afar and push him back with your physical attacks when he gets too close.

Villager guide by Jash

Spoiler

Pros: Able to punish all Villager aerials out of shield.
Out spaces most of Villagers physical attacks.
Toon Links running speed and decent ranged attacks makes it easy to pressure Villager.

Cons: Villager can pocket items that are thrown at him.
It can be very difficult to edge guard him.
Villagers fsmash edge guard can kill really quickly.

This matchup is tricky since it pretty much forces Toon Link to be more aggressive than the usual space with projectiles. Villager can literally make it unwinnable if you try to focus mainly on using your projectiles, not only can villager pocket your items but his projectiles out priorities Toon Links. However Villager has a hard time dealing with pressure due to the lag in his aerials, although Toon Link is considered a projectile based character, he does well up close in the match up.

Tips: Don't Spam Projectiles!
Zair is great for approaching this matchup, make sure you space it well so you cannot get punished by Villagers Nair.
Villager is sorta floaty which makes it easy to follow him when he is aerial, with constant sharking and guessing when he will do an aerial to power shield and punish, you'll have an easier time with this matchup.
Do your best to stay on stage, there is really no stopping villager fsmash offstage so avoid the situation at all cost.

Mario guide by Jash

Spoiler

Pros: Out spaces Mario physical moves.
Bomb out priorities up to 3 fire balls.
Easily gimped if Toon Link steals Mario's second jump offstage.

Cons: Mario capes/reflects every projectile Toon Link has.
Mario has a mean pressure when he gets too close.
Mario's dair has the ability to go through bombs after you toss them.

This matchup is very tricky but can be difficult to handle on both sides. Mario's main "go to" strategy in this matchup is to cape every projectile that is thrown at him which is usually the down fall for most Toon Link users, but what if Toon Link doesn't focus on throwing projectiles and decides to space his physical attacks? Will it make a difference? Absolutely. Toon Link out ranges Mario when it comes to close combat, Toon Link having the ability to play close combat in mid range thanks to zair.

Tips: Don't Spam Projectiles!
Focus mainly on poking Mario with zair as zair can combo to just about anything, full hop Nair works as well for good poking and avoiding punishment.
Bombs should only be used to either bait the cape (since you do have a few frames to punish it If he either misses or hits your shield) or to stop fire balls from being such a pain.
KEEP IN MIND that Mario's dair can allow toon links thrown bombs to go through him with out any damage taken, when he dairs I recommend throwing the bomb down after a short or full hop, assuming he hits your shield that is.
Gimping Mario can be a real problem sometimes but it's totally worth the attempt, I would never go off stage to gimp Mario with something physical since that can lead you to getting potentially stage spiked by Mario's up b, throw projectiles offstage to get him into a uncomfortable position, if you get the frame perfect ledge trap ftilt when he uses up b, that is a free gimp and a free stock.

How do you approach Toon link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat

Just power shield his projectiles (or, if you're using Rosalina since your character thing says you use her, use gravity) then punish his rolls with a dash attack or something. Toon Link's rolls are bad and really easy to punish, so punishing his rolls shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

How do you approach Toon link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat

lol, now where have I seen this before? Oh that's right, over on the Link boards:

How do you approach link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat

 

[Mrawesome48]

lol, now where have I seen this before? Oh that's right, over on the Link boards:

Yeah your right i asked this question over there as well. because they both have projectiles that do different things. Like for example a way to counter TL's boomerang might not work so well against Reg L's boomerang

 

[Deleted member]

How do we deal with DK's wind upb? I've tried being extra careful to always have as many projectiles out as possible against it, but still find myself getting hit or at least sucked in by it a bunch.

 

[Zahntavier]

Can we tech out of Ganon's flame choke > down tilt combo? I can do it with some other characters, but haven't got the timing for Toon Link. Thanks

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can we tech out of Ganon's flame choke > down tilt combo? I can do it with some other characters, but haven't got the timing for Toon Link. Thanks

Yes we can tech it. If you input the tech during the hitlag frames, it won't work, so basically just don't press the shield button too early; it must be done as you are falling. And remember, if you hit and hold left or right at any point even well before the tech, the tech will automatically be a tech roll in that direction, you probably already knew that, so how about something you probably didn't know; if you hold upwards from any point before a wall tech, it will automatically do a tech jump.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone have any advice on dealing with Shulk? Particularly 3113, but any advice on dealing with any Shulk sets would be appreciated.

 

[Villager431]

try to camp shulk as much as possible wen he is not in speed monado

 

[BJN39]

Hello Toon Links!

The Zelda boards are currently doing discussion on the TL vs Zelda MU, and we'd appreciate some input from y'all! If you wouldn't mind dropping by.

Click little Zelda to use FW straight to our MU thread~

 

[Deleted member]

So I've kept forgetting to post this here, but for anyone who's been having any trouble with exploding balloon+trip tree Villager planking, @Zan- and I were experimenting with it a few weeks ago. Short-fuse bombs seem to be the best counter to it since the explosion is huge enough that the explosion is unavoidable, and strong enough that Villager will take massive damage (I wonder how short-fuse would do vs Villager even without planking? Seems like at least the pocket would be much less of a threat when using those bombs). Other options are a well-timed and well-spaced fsmash and running off-stage then bairing him (just be really careful with the bair since it'll end badly if you mess up), especially if Villager is at kill % and the short-fuse bomb isn't killing him. You'd think going for a dair spike against a planking Villager would be a good idea, but it's surprisingly hard to land and going for it will almost certainly just get you hit by the balloons.

Also, more guides from the TLBR by Jash:

Fox

Spoiler

45-55 Fox advantage

Pros: easy to combo.
Easy to edge guard.

Cons: Can reflect all of Toon Link's projectiles.
Can easily rush Toon Link down.
Can kill Toon Link early with usmash.

I consider this match-up a tough one to deal with especially if the Fox is proficient with reacting. Although it is easy to string a bunch of up tilts together against Fox, it can be difficult setting him up into it due to his quick running speed (4th fastest in the game) and his lagless aerials that come out almost instantly. Your best bet is to get him off-stage and edge guard him the best you can or get him off-stage to rack up damage.

Tips: DON'T SPAM PROJECTILES!
Utilt and ftilt are great anti-air attacks and should be used mainly to punish Fox's landing attacks or landing in general.
If timed correctly, ftilt can out prioritize Fox's side b which is a great thing to master if you want to make gimping him off-stage a little easier.
Avoid flat stages against Fox, he can easily continue to rush you down if there is no platforms to stop him. Smashville and Town and City are my suggestions if you want to have an easier time with this match-up.
Avoid utilting Fox at 0%, he can punish you before you are able to move again. Utilt starts to string at 10%.
Be careful zairing Fox at low %, since he is considered a fast faller he has less hit stun than most of the cast.

Sonic

Spoiler

55-45 Toon Link's advantage

Pros: Out spaces all of Sonic's moves.
Able to wall Sonic with both projectiles and physical attacks.
Able to punish all of Sonic's landing aerials (excluding Sonic's land cancel dair)

Cons: Can be quickly rushed in by Sonic.
Spin dash has the ability to go through thrown bombs without taking damage.

This match-up is a classic cat and mouse (or in this case, hedgehog and elf), Toon Link having to space as many safe moves as possible to avoid getting grabbed by Sonic. Sonic's running speed (being the best in the game) in my opinion is the toughest thing to deal with in this match-up; it's easy for Sonic to run in and react to anything Toon Link throws at him. On the other hand, when it comes to gaining stage control, I believe it is Toon Link who has a better time doing so. Sonic may be the quickest, but Toon Link is pretty quick himself, with a projectile game and mid-range game that are very proficient for characters that do not have projectiles, like Sonic in this case.

Tips: Avoid grab range; this is the place where Sonic reigns supreme, try to stay mid range or projectile range in this match-up.
Sonic's spin dashes and dash attack are multi hit moves, meaning there is a chance of thrown bombs going through them with out taking any damage. The homing attack can be difficult to deal with sometimes, I find the solution to be to just upsmash whenever you see him use it.
I would avoid flat stages honestly, platforms help with the rush pressure Sonic has, also Toon Link does generally well on platform stages.

Note on stages by myself / Artemis:
Never take Sonic to Delfino, Halberd, Kongo, or on the 3DS, Yoshi's Island; he really likes those stages. Castle Siege is also especially bad for Toon Link in this match-up since it's a good stage for Sonic.

Peach

Spoiler

55-45 Toon Link's advantage
Pros: Out spaces all of Peach's attacks.
Zair pierces through turnips.
Peach can be walled by projectiles and zair.
Peach dies at low percentages.

Cons: Peach can pressure hard at close combat.
Bob-ombs.
Peach has multi hit moves that may go through bombs without taking damage.

This match-up can be pretty one sided on Toon Link's favor, but that can change at any time if the Toon Link is not careful. You definitely don't want Peach to be anywhere you in neutral position, it's so bad that even shield isn't a good idea in this match-up. Peach can dair and side b your shield without having any openings for punish afterwards, so avoid that situation at all cost. Toon Link is rather quick on his feet, so if you focus on spacing rather than shielding, you will have a easier time dealing with this match-up.

Tips: Focus on staying mid range or projectile range, avoid close combat and shielding too much. As an alternative, try running away from incoming attacks since most of her attacks lag on landing except nair which has the least distance.

Zair is probably the best thing to use in this match-up, it pretty much destroys her float ability out spacing every option she can do while she is in that animation. It also pierces her only projectile, turnips, meaning a zair would make a turnip disappear on contact and still have a zair hit box out that may also hit Peach if at the correct distance.

I would avoid both Battlefield and Lylat Cruise, Peach increases on pressure with platforms, anything flat will help you in this match-up.

Note by Fox Is Openly Deceptive:
One interesting thing I know about this match-up is a little quirk to do with bob-ombs. Basically, they are very different to our bombs in that they can be hit and detonated even when the holder is simply standing there holding it. If you throw a rang or a bomb at peach while she's holding a bob-omb, she's not going to have a good time. If the peach player knows this, they'll be wanting to get rid of the bob-omb fairly quickly and they'll get super careful about shielding all your spam. Peach pulling bob-ombs is in our favour.

 

[Ffamran]

No, I'm not delivering your mail to (Toon) Zelda! I am not a Rito! ... But I wished I could fly on my own without my Arwing.

Hello wacky kids, the Falco boards began their Toon Link discussion and I guess, play time's beginning. As an ongoing discussion, drop in, sail to, or take a train to the Falco boards whenever. Link to the discussion: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-28-toon-link-wind-wakers.401356/.

And if you want to play with the Falco players for MU experience or just for fun, head here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[powerpaul95]

what about the newcomer mewtwo? I wanna heard your impression

I only play against mewtwo on FG and with my big brother whos not that great (lol).

From what I've played, we have to watch out mewtwo's range and obviously his reflector. This character is legit good and I think we have to respect his range. but for his reflector, it is easy to punish by baiting the move since it have a lot of ending lag. For sure spamming his not appropriate here but projectiles have a place in the matchup. mewtwo have a lot of tools when gay is over him and have to land (usmash, arial, neutral b, etc) thats what I can say for now.

I think gay have a little disavantage for those reason (like 45-55)

I'm not a pro gay player but I think I got a good view for the matchup.

what do you think?

 

[Disgaea D2]

General Notes on Toon Link Vs Mr Game and Watch

Game and Watch has grab follow-ups based on how high Toon Link's percentage is so you have to respect his grab game (I disrespected it one time and got Uthrow > 9'd and lost my stock because of a grab at 0%).

He can also Uthrow > oil panic at low Percents too which leads to another thing, Game and Watch can bucket bombs or the explosion (I can't remember). So either swarm him with projectiles or mix between projectiles and fighting with the Master Sword.

His Uair can keep you in the air for awhile, so take advantage by pulling a bomb or take some time to be smart about your landing - G&W's Usmash has invincibility and kills mad early, so don't try to land above him because you will just lose your stocks.

On the bright side, we kill him mad early too, I killed one around 40% on Smashville with a stale Fsmash (no rage and the DI was okay). Our Uair has TONS of hitstun so we can juggle him but we don't need to be greedy with it because if we miss we will get punished pretty hard since the move lasts forever. Utilt is a good anti-air and can usually lead into a Bair or Nair.

From my experience it's 50/50 but you do have to be super creative to beat a good G&W.

It's hard to tell on sight but that uthrow is actually a dthrow.

 

[Deleted member]

what about the newcomer mewtwo? I wanna heard your impression

I've played this match-up a bit lately, not 100% confident in what I've found on the match-up but thought it would be worth posting at least for the sake of discussion.

Anyway, so I've tried a good chunk of the stage list against Mewtwo, and imo T&C is our best stage vs him, then SV and Duck Hunt. FD is an okay choice. BF and Lylat are bad options vs him since his ability to shark you from such low platforms is so good, and his deadly confusion>usmash combo only works if confusion lands you on top of a platform, which is easy to do on BF and Lylat. I can see Halberd being bad vs him, too, but I haven't tested it enough to say that with any confidence whatsoever.

As for the match-up strategy, I've found aggression and constantly keeping the pressure on Mewtwo to work. The reason I say to play aggressively and keep pressure on is because Mewtwo seems to deal with them really badly thanks to his slow attacks, plus he's also easy to combo. Camping doesn't really work against Mewtwo because he's pretty campy himself, has a very good reflector with confusion, and a fully-charged shadow ball cancels out every single one of our projectiles. If you're going to try to camp it should be from a high platform, otherwise you'll lose the camping fight.
Also, utilt strings should always be ended with only a usmash and not any aerials, since Mewtwo can nair you if you try to follow up with an aerial after the last utilt/usmash. Like Sheik and other characters with teleporting recoveries, you can try to ftilt (or fsmash or dair, but they're are a lot harder to time) at the ledge if you know Mewtwo will upb there, since there's a short window of time before he grabs the ledge where he can be hit.

Again, this is just what I've found in my rather limited experience; someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

 

[ILJ]

Can we please cover shulk.....I feel like he is a big problem for us. I lost to 3 today and am infuriated. -.-

 

[Omegascizor456]

Been meaning to post this for awhile, but I'm gonna post my full matchup ratio (imo)

Big Advantage (65:35 and onward)
Advantage (60:40)
Slight Advantage (55:45)
Even (50:50)
Slight Disadvantage (45:55)
Disadvantage (40:60)
Big Disadvantage (35:65 and onward)

60:40
50:50
40:60
65:35
45:55
50:50
35:65 or 40:60 at best
60:40
65:35
50:50 or 40:60
60:40
45:55 but can be 40:60
70:30
65:35
50:50
60:40
80:20
65:35
60:40 (80:20 on SV)
50:50
50:50
70:30
35:65
40:60
65:35
60:40
60:40
40:60
?
70:30
60:40
45:55
50:50
45:55
40:60
40:60
40:60
45:55
65:35
50:50 or 45:55
65:35
30:70
40:60
35:65
100:0
40:60 but can go as bad as 35:65 if we lose the lead
40:60
65:35
35:65
55:45
40:60

This seems pretty much about right, and am i the only one that thinks toon link is WAY more effective then link...

 

[Deleted member]

Can we please cover shulk.....I feel like he is a big problem for us. I lost to 3 today and am infuriated. -.-

The TLBR just started discussion on Shulk actually. I'm planning on putting the guides we've gotten in the second post after we're done discussing Shulk. Shulk is pretty annoying though. Personally all I've found against him is to punish the landing lag on his aerials with bomb OoS.

am i the only one that thinks toon link is WAY more effective then link...

Yes, except maybe with customs.

 

[Teshie U]

toon link beats everyone. Except for shiek and maybe fox

 

[Theis]

Been meaning to post this for awhile, but I'm gonna post my full matchup ratio (imo)
60:40

most if not all megaman's projectiles clash or beat our projectiles so its hard to get any bread and butters on him. i feel its not as in our favor as 60:40 but in a custom environment maybe 50:50 with piercing arrow but i feel its closer to 45:55