Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[Jasudin]

I haven't seen many people use Ike, and I have not seen anyone discuss him yet in this thread, so here are my thoughts:
Some things to note about Ike (haven't actually played any, but use Ike sometimes myself):
1. Outranges us in general up close, mainly in ground game.
2. Like in Brawl, don't underestimate the distance of his dash attack.
3. Also like in Brawl, you can "meatshield" his side b; however, it should be noted that when he (applies only for if the attack animation comes out) hits you, he no longer goes into special fall.
4. Arrows onto a side b recovery can really mess up an Ike's recovery and timing for the next input.
5. Kills earlier than you with the likes of ftilt, uptilt, bair, uair as main kill options. His smashes are bait or roll punish kills. However, you have more reliable bomb setups/return boomerang trip setups.
6. TL's options from above are bad without a bomb in general(only really have dair which can be really punishable and should ONLY be used as a mix up. Ike dishes pain and has an upsmash that outranges dair I think, making it riskier to dair.)
7. Ike's jab combo, dtilt (super fast and great range like many other dtilts in this game), and nair are used ALOT.
8. Ike can no longer really jab cancel jab 2 but jab 1 is still a usable option into something.
9. Aerials have bad end lag making them punishable when whiffed high above ground without a fast fall.
10. His fair auto cancels when short hopped, making it possible to grab or jab or something else out of it. A string utilizing his fair is SHFF Nair--> dtilt--> SH Fair--> jab 1--> grab
11. SHFF Zair is good for limiting his approaches, which consist mainly of powershield --> grab, jab, or dash attack and SH Nair. Good Ike's will almost never go for an FH approach, which is pretty punishable when done by almost every character in the game.
12. JCT bomb works really well when shielded or connected. (Ike doesn't really have a response to this on shield) When shielded, you create great shield pressure and have options like re catching, grabbing, or baiting. When connected, you can get a fair to combo into the explosion or frame trap/bait using an empty jump or uairing because its length covers the air dodge even if the initial hotbox is missed.
13. When Ike gets close, take advantage of your fast moves and try to get him offstage to fair gimp side b or a mid-air jump.
14. CAMP (up thrown or C4ed bombs can mess up or instill a fear for approaching.)
15. Gimping Ike when he's below can be difficult due to super armor beating out nearly everything if the Ike times it well, so you should try to cover ledge options instead.

Stage: Any big stage to make approaching harder and to give you more breathing space if needed.

My Thoughts on Ratio: I would say 60:40 to 70:30

 

[sleepy_Nex]

I also play Ike if someone wants to study the Matchup.

 

[ThatNintendoDude]

I guess I just haven't played many good Dedede's then. I'd say the matchup is 60:40 Toon Link.

PROS:

• Projectiles reflect Gordos (specifically boomerang and bomb)
  
• Overall speed advantage
  
• Since DeDeDe is slow and TL can throw projectiles in many different directions, his approaches are difficult.
• Larger character means a fairly large hurtbox, and can lead to several good juggle opportunities at low-to-mid percents

CONS:

• DeDeDe can do massive damage, which may lead to early KOs
  
• Usually must get him to high percent to KO reliably.

Granted, I don't have too much experience playing Dedede's, but I generally don't have a problem with them. I can see how matchup problems could exist though.

 

[Fangblade]

Jigz:
I keep my distance and pound her with projectiles, that way they'll have to approach you. She's surprisingly agile, I can never get a grab on her. When she's offstage I work w/ bomb's and maybe bust out an Ftilt if she's recovering to the ledge too high.
From what I've seen they mostly use: Dthrow, Fair, Bair(Kills ~90%), Fspecial, Fsmash.
Her PUMMEl* does a lot of %, like 4% I think.
Fair/Nair/Fspecial have lingering hitboxs, Fspecial can't be spotdodged.
Utilt/Usmash, and other strings combo in Rest. They're going to be throwing out a lot of moves but what they really want to land is rest, so beware.

Jigz 0wnz in the air, she can usually Dair our recovery so I mix things up.
Also if her shield breaks, she KO'd.

D3:
Worst match-up ever. Unless you feel like camping him the whole match, and watching him return from he depths of hell, I'd switch to ZSS...

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Kirby and Link, on top of Jigglypuff and King DeDeDe.

I don't have much experience against either Kirby or Link, but in my experience, zair is useless against Link and extremely useless against Kirby.

 

[Karaoke Man]

We're now discussing Kirby and Link, on top of Jigglypuff and King DeDeDe.

I don't have much experience against either Kirby or Link, but in my experience, zair is useless against Link and extremely useless against Kirby.

It depends on the context in which you're using Zair. Against Link, anyway. If you use it as an approach it can easily be avoided and/or punished from shield. So, it's best to use Zair to either cover space or to distance yourself out of close range. I'm not sure how much range Toon Link's Zair has in comparison to Link's, but I know it definitely comes out faster than Link's.

There's 3 things you should definitely keep note of in this MU: Gale Boomerang, Link's Master Sword attacks (aka fighting him in close range) and being above Link.

Much like with Toon Link's Boomerang, you don't want to be between the Gale Boomerang (returning) and Link. As, his Zair can snare you into the windbox, allowing for free follow ups. With that being said, you'll be fine going above Link, but you need to be carrying a bomb to protect your landing with because Link also thrives off of being an anti-air fighter.

This is pretty much a battle of who can maintain Ground Control. Toon Link may not have the range or even the strength of Link, but he does have the mobility to get himself out of tight spots. Link however, is stronger in the aspect of maintaining that ground control. It's basically about which one has the stronger tactics.

When grounded, it's not really a good idea to just "throw stuff" directly at Link (but it is easier to overwhelm him with your tools from the air, since you get them out much quicker). He can literally just walk and block through all of it with Hylian Shield. Toon Link can do this as well of course, but his smaller body and....big head make his shield harder to be effective with in this case. I could very well be wrong/understating about this aspect though.

Up close, you'll want to pressure him with SH Bomb throws, well spaced Bair's (as in you'll need to Full Hop these) or mid range Boomerangs returning from behind Link. Since Link will beat you out in range, you'll have to beat him out in speed. If you can manage to get him off the ground or even off the stage as I mentioned a couple paragraphs above, the advantage is your's for the time, since it'll be tough for Link to even sink like a rock back onto solid ground. However, if he were to be holding a bomb and was able to save his double jump, it's a bit of a different story; he could throw it down at some point and challenge you with a surprise FF'd Dair. Link isn't an aerial fighter, but don't sleep on him in this regard either.

Lastly, when you're recovering offstage, you will almost always want to recover from below the ledge. The reason being is because due to the speed of Link's fully charged arrows, he can snipe you far enough from the ledge to gimp you entirely, especially at percents higher than around 70%. At about 130%, a Link with exceptional aim can snipe you into the blast zone even from the complete other end of the stage. So yes, if he's not trying to edgeguard you himself, recover low Toon Lank's.


This basically comes down to which character has the stronger tactics in the match; Who's able to utilize their tools to meet the most optimal demands of certain instances more than the other.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Kirby player and former TL secondary here.

I honestly don't know everything that's changed about Mini Lonk, but I can tell you this about Kirby: he struggles with projectiles.

You guys have three projectiles to play around with and zone Kirby right out. Don't let this get to you head, because if you slip up and let Kirby get close, you have a problem on your hands.

Kirby and TL have similar melee ranges, but Kirby has fast attacks. Your Utilt can't juggle Kirby like other chars. I think Kirby can duck under TL's grab, I say maybe because of TL's height. Be wary of recovering low when facing Kirby, as Kirby can Dair or Stone you. Something to note is that Final cutter doesn't ledgesnap going up, so being near the ledge against Kirby is a bad idea

In general, try to make the stage your playground and control the match flow, Which shouldn't be that difficult.

I'd say It's 60-40 TL.

 

[Fangblade]

Kirby:
Kirby's kinda slow but his attacks are pretty quick, I think shield pressure is pretty important in this match-up so you're able to bait shields w/ bombs and boomerang. Don't be scared to get fancy w/ the bombs 'cause sooner or later Kirby will decide catch a bomb and he wont be able to use an aerial. Since his attacks are so quick you'll want to punish him whenever possible, (shielding Fair>Jab or bomb throw). Kirby main asset to getting inside is getting a dash grab I would think.

 

[Deleted member]

The main thing in the kirby matchup:
Angled boomerang upward to cover his jump, bombs in his general space. Kirby can't deal with projectile pressure. I don't know why someone said Zair is useless in this matchup cause it really isnt, in fact zair isnt useless in any matchup. There are times where you don't use it in that moment, but its a good spacing move and move to followup on.

Some important notes:
- Do not try to combat kirby in the air
- You want to have extreme stage control vs kirby
- Don't try to combat kirby off stage
- Be cautious up close, however we can succeed in the upclose battle
- Play extremely patient
- From experience, this matchup is 65:35 or even 70:30 in our favor.
- Throwing bombs up to cover kirby's air space is great.
- Throwing boomerang upward is extremely important because Kirby will have to play very evasive.
- Be careful of utilts, they can lead to alot for him.
- Kirbys will generally try to jump a few times and land with bair to get in, otherwise his approach options are pretty bad. This is why covering his aerial space is so important.

 

[Yackabean]

I'd say 65:35 is more appropriate. Petty much what Zan says though, Kirby's play a lot like puff mains waiting in the air trying to land that dair for up-tilt combos or what not. Bair is scary to combat too.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Kirby, Link, Little Mac, and Lucario. Also, just a reminder, for glory hardly ever gives a good representation of how a character is supposed to be played, since most people on there suck and have no idea how to use their character. This is especially true for Little Mac. That said, personally I like it when I can land a dsmash on one at the edge of the stage lol, even if it'll never happen against a good LM.

 

[PSIBoy]

I play as Kirby and Lucario. Decent at worst I think. I have some free time today and next weekend. If anyone wants a little matchup experience with them, feel free to challenge me. I don't know how their moves clash, so I can't really contribute as of right now.

 

[Cyre]

I like playing Dedede a bit so let me see if I can help out with the discussion.
*I'm also a bit late to the party, so I offer my apologies for the inconvenience.*

I feel like dedede's playstyle is about approaching with Nair's and capitalizing on his opponent's mistakes. He hits very hard just like many other heavies and one good hit will probably guarantee a KO.

Pros for D3
~Hits like a truck. His smashes are amazingly powerful.
~Super heavy.
~Multiple Jumps allowing him to space himself for aerials (mostly his nair)
~His down air can autocancel (Please confirm)
~Super amazing down tilt that can be used to cover his aerials and down smash.

When I play D3 I tend to use my Jumps to space myself properly between my opponent and then go for nairs and usually I can combo that into a utilt or a usmash at low percents. If I am facing a projectile user like link or toon Link I try to stay as close as possible and bait for any smashes or rolls. I feel like an upward thrown boomerang can box dedede in and force him into a bad position. Watch out for his gordo's in close range.

Negatives for d3
~We can almost wall him out with properly aimed bombs and boomerangs
~His big size makes him combo food for us. He also cannot really punish you with his aerials besides his nair due to slow startups. So if you land that bomb, prepare to go in for fairs and whatnots
~Zair when in doubt. It's amazing in this MU.
~Very slow smashes, so they can easily be punished with zairs, projectiles, grabs, etc
~His aerials really require proper spacing and can be hard to land at times
~Gordos will always lose to our projectiles.

I feel like the match up is easily 60:40.

I have some things to say about Little Mac.

I almost despise this character but he is far from unbeatable. Ironically even when he's considered stupid there are far to few players who can really do him justice.

LM Pros
~Little mac is one of the fastest and hardest hitting characters. He has the run speed of a light character and the power of a heavy weight like Dedede or Donkey kong.
~His moves come out quick and hard. Some can be a bit unpredictable and hard to punish due to Super armor and low amounts of endlag. I believe all of his smashes have Super Armor but correct me if I'm wrong.
~His ftilt is amazing and well placed one can send you into a KO.
~His down tilt is amazing for edge guarding but as long as you don't stall, you will be fine. I even suggest dropping below the ledge and throwing a bomb upwards to scare him off.
~His rolls are kind of silly, but easier to deal with in offline play.

LM Cons
~Let's get the obvious out of the way. He has no air game. Yea, I'll admit it looks cool to nair someone off stage, but that is highly situational and probably won't happen unless you leave yourself open to it.
~One good Dsmash can tear the game away from him.
~Knock him into the air and what can he even do about it? Free fair as far as I'm concerned. If he's a counter freak then wait for it and grab. Free pummels.
~Toon Link is a very mobile character and should always be moving.
~Oh zair, I'm glad you're always there for me in my times of need.

I think this MU is 50/50 as LM can easily get kill off if you aren't careful. Problem for him is we can do the same and completely out zone him and gimp him as well. Grabs are pretty free on this guy as well IMO since he only has two jumps.

Lucario sucks, I absolutely hate this guy. You get punished for beating his behind! Good game design, Ign 10/10 amirite.

I digress, anywho..
Lucario Pros
~Aura can be pretty insane. If you don't get your kill, you will end up regretting it. I think move staling becomes really important just for this MU and I'm not one to usually care about move staling.
~Once his aura is in town, the range of all his attacks become pretty amazing. They also increase in knockback so one Fsmash at high percents can kill you super early and I'm suggesting as early as 60 percent on TL.
~His Neutral B is similar to samus's but it is not as powerful. (Until rage) It's a pretty good move in general. Watch out for it.
~Amazing recovery, you gotta KO this guy because he will always come back.

Lucario Cons
~Before his aura comes into play, he is kind of a chump. I honestly don't like how poor his attacks are without aura, but that is a discussion for another day. Anywho, they have barely any range and he struggles to even approach. I really suggest taking advantage of this early on.
~His counter is super punishable, holy crap.

My conclusions.. Toon link 100 to 0 in his favor. I hate that Lucario!

In all seriousness I think the MU is 50/50. Lucario can really turn the tables on you if you aren't careful. He has some serious kill power and stage control due to the range/knockback/damage of his moves increasing as he takes on more damage. On the other hand, you really own the match early on, so that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[ThatNintendoDude]

There are two types of Little Mac players: Aggro Mac and Opportunistic Mac.

Aggro Mac is a winnable match up if you know what you're doing. Lots of shields and punishes. Throw them off the stage and you can either use projectiles or aerials to harass them. However, one slip up and you still take a lot of damage from these guys.

Opportunistic Mac is a lot harder. The don't charge in guns blazing, they wait for you to screw up and punish you severely for it. His moves are so quick, I find myself rarely having time to shield or spot dodge before I'm in the middle of a jab combo or just had my brains smashed out. If TL gets put in the air, Mac can close the gap so quickly, there's rarely a safe place to land. Against these players, I just have to try and bait something out of them and chip away, then get the kill when I can.

Against Aggro Mac, I'd say the matchup is 65:35 if you know what you're doing. Against Opportunistic Mac, 30:70.

 

[ILJ]

Lil Mac is easy....
Spam projectiles and spot dodge to up tilt...

 

[HyLeN]

Link vs TL is actually kind of funny. It was free for us in brawl but now, we struggle. Links zoning is better (bombs go through our projectiles+do more damage. Arrows do more damage and he doesn't have to wait to throw another boomerang after he just threw one as long as we do.) he also gimps us for free with his nair/bair. Basically, if you want to win this mu. You have to play super aggressive. Once you brake links wall, you beat him. Because toonlink has quicker attacks than link. If we have him under pressure, he has no response. Because of his weight, he never falls out of fsmash and fsmash will kill around 80 or earlier with rage. If he starts to space you out with zair, all you can do is run away and throw bombs at him. The best stages for this mu: smashville, and battlefield. If he has too much open space he can zone us with arrows and bombs then if you try to approach, he can kill early with any of his smashes or get a grab to go for a gimp. This mu is most likely 55-45 links favor as of now do to our lack or damage out put making it hard to finally kill him(besides fsmash obviously) and lack of safe approach options. Every mistake you make, he WILL put you in a bad position off stage or kill you. If he makes a mistake, you might put 25% on him.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry guys, I haven't really been able to keep up with the match-up discussion lately (terrible, I know lol), so I haven't been able to update the match-up thread as much. I'm not going to put anything for the DeDeDe match-up ratio because the ratios people gave for it are all over the place. For the DeDeDe guide, I'm thinking of going with what Cyrene wrote since it looks good and he uses DeDeDe even if that post was made way late, is that alright with you guys? As for the Kirby guide, I know it's a little early for talking about this since it's only Tuesday, but I'm thinking of using what Zan wrote for the guide then going with the match-up ratio of 65:35 since there seems to be a lot of agreement in that area.

As for actually contributing to the match-up discussion, I agree with Hylen on the Link match-up. As for Lucario, I don't have much experience against him but I can see why it could be a hard match-up for us. It's bad enough how the rage effect hurts TL so badly with him being light enough to die early from an enraged opponent and lacking the kill moves to prevent it from happening, but add aura to the equation and this problem is so much worse. Playing especially careful and knowing how to land the kill should be pretty obvious important things in this match-up.

Little Mac I have a ton more experience with since he was pretty popular in my region until recently. Imo, for neutrals on the Wii U, BF > Lylat > Town and City > Smashville > FD (I have less experience with him on Lylat and T&C, though, so I could be wrong on those), and on the 3DS BF > YI > FD. Prism Tower on the 3DS is absolutely amazing against him, so if you're on the 3DS and he wastes his ban on Battlefield, take him to Prism Tower. Stages with transitions in general **** him over pretty hard with his recovery, and it makes it so much worse for him that stages that transition tend to have areas where it's easy for TL to camp without having to worry about LM being able to reach him easily.

As for the match-up strategy, as annoying as he is on the ground, trying to air camp him isn't a good idea since he​

has the speed to easily punish your landings, and will punish them hard (unless you're going to land on a platform, but yeah). So yeah, if you're in a position where you can't camp him from a platform, camp him from the ground instead of the air. Also, utilt strings are amazing on Little Mac, but with its poor start-up and range especially compared to LM's moves, I wouldn't expect this to land, and you shouldn't go for it unless you're 200% sure it's going to land. Dsmash by the edge with your back facing the end of the stage is also very good against LM since the second hit will often miss, throwing him far enough away from the stage where he can't recover. This is even harder to land than utilt and has even more room to get punished for it, though, so again, don't go for it unless you're 900% sure it will land. Personally, the only time I've ever been able to land this has been against bad LMs that predictably run straight at you at the start of the match, in which case you can get a free dsmash as long as you time it correctly. Most LMs aren't this terrible, though, so again, don't expect it. Also, gimping is another thing that works absolutely amazing against LM (as should go without saying), though it should be mentioned that good LMs who know what they're doing aren't going to be easy to gimp.

Probably the most important things in this match-up are to play extremely patiently and to never fight​

him up close. But yeah, I think this match-up is 45:55 LM's favor.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol ok. I havent had problems with Little Mac. Please don't think im crazy.

Little Mac

On smashville, LM vs TL is 80/20 in our favor, almost unwinnable if even that. We just camp on the platform, and he cant do ANYTHING LITERALLY.
Otherwise, I find this MU to be 60/40
- He can't jump aerial cause we can just jump and throw bombs/angled boomerang
- His usmash barely reaches the platform and easy to shield at that
- We can rack up percent, leading him to KO punch but aerial KO punch doesnt kill.
- We CAN go in and out in this matchup, but its going to be tricky to know when to go in.
- Do not by any circumstances give him FD. SV is our best stage in this MU. BF is good too. Town and City is great as well, but be careful when all the platforms are gone. Play extremely keepaway till platforms return. Havent tested Lylat, but shorter platforms means that he can probably hit us from the ground, however the ledge seems like it'd make it extremely difficult for him to recover. Halberd has a low ceiling and generally a flat stage, so I wouldnt go there. Delfino also has many flat parts but also has parts with big platforms. Its your call on preference as far as delfino goes. Do not go to Castle Siege, its like 3 FDs and its just a bad stage for us in general. Duck Hunt is questionable, he cant reach the tree but the whole stage is very flat, so I don't know about that. Kongo Jungle (if legal) should be alright but watch out for the barrel as it might help his recovery.
- Do not try to challenge his up close game. He has a lot of super armor and our attacks arent necessarily quick or strong, so its best to just keep chipping away at him. This does not mean you can't go in at the right times, but don't challenge him if you don't have to.
- I find that ftilt when hes off stage does work against his side b/up b recovery alot of times and the trajectory he gets sent at makes it hard for him to recover.
- Make sure you don't do anything too risky because getting punished is gonna be rough in this MU.
- Once we get a stock lead, we can really just not approach at all until we want a kill. Back throw, even if it doesn't kill, will put him in a rly bad position and we can get that ftilt/etc gimp on him.


Lucario
60/40 or 50/50 only cause of rage.
- We generally outplay/beat him at lower percents because his hitboxes are telegraphed, low ranged, and have low priority.
- We rack up percent on him easily getting him to kill percents no problem, but that is where the trouble lies. We rack up his rage pretty easily, and thats when we need to be careful the most.
- Bombs>Aura Sphere always. No matter what percent or how big the AS is, bomb will always either go through it or explode cancelling it out. Boomerang will cancel out lower charged/percent AS but not for long, so bombs are more reliable vs AS.
- Angled boomerang downward is very good at covering Lucarios space since he wants to stay grounded or jump diagonally toward us.
- Zair is a great spacing tool as usual. Lucarios weight is wierd, but we can get the usual zair to nair/grab. I believe zair to usmash (without rage) will start working around 120. With rage, about 100 or so.
- Nair and Fair are safe on shield at low percent, at high percent be careful of side b. Not sure about bair on shield yet.
- Don't challenge his counter. Its surprisingly good, and if he manages to counter our bomb, don't think you can wait for him to reappear to punish. He has invincibility on the reappear and it kills/goes really far across stage (Esp in rage). Either shield it or do not approach it if he has countered one of our moves. If you see him counter and we didn't hit him, punish with a grab. It lasts long and is weird to punish with a move, so just try to grab it if you can. If you really want to get maximum punish on it, have a bomb and run away from him, then jc bomb throw to followup. That way even if you do mistime it and he does get the counter on our bomb, we will be in the air/wont get hit because we didnt do a laggy move.
- His recovery is hard, probably impossible to gimp. Be careful of the hitbox on it. His recovery gains distance the more percent he has on him, so watch out for that too. It has a lot of lag if he uses it from the air and lands on the ground after the animation has ended, so we can get a good punish on that. However, it does not have a lot of lag if he lands on the ground during his up b. We can generally intercept it with a bomb or boomerang. What I usually do is if their off stage, they will most likely go for the edge with up b, so I zair onto the ledge, wait till they grab it, then reel in immediately to trump them into a bair.
- Watch out for side b. It has a lot of range when theyre at high percent, don't underestimate it. Boomerang will go through it iirc but it will explode bombs.
- Don't hide in your shield TOO long because lucario has a devastating force palm at high percents that will kill us very early.
- Beware of bair, fsmash, force palm, dsmash, uair, and AS when he is in rage. There is no reason to play impatient especially when they are at high percents I cant emphasize this enough. I even encourage you to play more patient at high percent. The kill will come to you, just keep applying boomerang and bomb pressure. Notice their habits and you can even try for a read, but don't force the kill. You will get severely punished.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol ok. I havent had problems with Little Mac. Please don't think im crazy.
Little Mac

On smashville, LM vs TL is 80/20 in our favor, almost unwinnable if even that. We just camp on the platform, and he cant do ANYTHING LITERALLY.
Otherwise, I find this MU to be 60/40
- He can't jump aerial cause we can just jump and throw bombs/angled boomerang
- His usmash barely reaches the platform and easy to shield at that
- We can rack up percent, leading him to KO punch but aerial KO punch doesnt kill.
- We CAN go in and out in this matchup, but its going to be tricky to know when to go in.
- Do not by any circumstances give him FD. SV is our best stage in this MU. BF is good too. Town and City is great as well, but be careful when all the platforms are gone. Play extremely keepaway till platforms return. Havent tested Lylat, but shorter platforms means that he can probably hit us from the ground, however the ledge seems like it'd make it extremely difficult for him to recover. Halberd has a low ceiling and generally a flat stage, so I wouldnt go there. Delfino also has many flat parts but also has parts with big platforms. Its your call on preference as far as delfino goes. Do not go to Castle Siege, its like 3 FDs and its just a bad stage for us in general. Duck Hunt is questionable, he cant reach the tree but the whole stage is very flat, so I don't know about that. Kongo Jungle (if legal) should be alright but watch out for the barrel as it might help his recovery.
- Do not try to challenge his up close game. He has a lot of super armor and our attacks arent necessarily quick or strong, so its best to just keep chipping away at him. This does not mean you can't go in at the right times, but don't challenge him if you don't have to.
- I find that ftilt when hes off stage does work against his side b/up b recovery alot of times and the trajectory he gets sent at makes it hard for him to recover.
- Make sure you don't do anything too risky because getting punished is gonna be rough in this MU.
- Once we get a stock lead, we can really just not approach at all until we want a kill. Back throw, even if it doesn't kill, will put him in a rly bad position and we can get that ftilt/etc gimp on him.

Whoops, I just realized I completely misworded that part about stage transformations. I meant stages like Prism Tower, Delfino, and theoretically Skyloft, since those stages can put him in a nasty position every time the main platform comes back. Stages like Castle Siege and Halberd would be awful against LM lol. But yeah, maybe I've just had really good luck against LM on Lylat, but I've found the stage to mess with his recovery enough times that it's made killing so much less of a problem against him. As for Smashville, racking up damage against LM is already easy enough, so the platform only just helps with something that was already easy enough to do in the first place. There's also the issue of the platform helping with his recovery if it's on his side of the stage, and also if you have to leave the platform for whatever reason you don't have another platform to go to. I haven't tried Duck Hunt against him, but theoretically it seems like it would be especially good against LM for going for a time-out (which honestly is probably what you should go for in the first place).

 

[Yackabean]

Little Mac? Didn't we already know it's 100:0
Lol jk.
Honestly if the mac is aware of our ridiculous OHKO gimp on him we can still force mac to approach anyway with our projectiles. Stay at the ledge always unless you're in kill percent. Cause his F-smash will kill pretty easily by the ledge. Gimping him should be no problem as well once he's of the stage.
I'd say 80:20 honestly.

 

[Deleted member]

Little Mac? Didn't we already know it's 100:0
Lol jk.
Honestly if the mac is aware of our ridiculous OHKO gimp on him we can still force mac to approach anyway with our projectiles. Stay at the ledge always unless you're in kill percent. Cause his F-smash will kill pretty easily by the ledge. Gimping him should be no problem as well once he's of the stage.
I'd say 80:20 honestly.

Dsmash's poor range and start-up are going to prevent it from ever landing on a good Little Mac. All he has to do is play more carefully and space his moves better, and that strategy is completely ruined since his moves are much faster than our dsmash and have much more range. Way too many TLs go for baiting LM into a dsmash anyway, and it doesn't work at all. A good Little Mac isn't going to let themselves get tossed off-stage very easily in general with anything else, either.

 

[Yackabean]

Honestly it's easier to land than you think. One messed up spaced dash attack, grab or smash attack can be punished if you're fast enough. D-smash doesn't have that much start up.

 

[Cyre]

I feel like I can agree with both of you. One good Dsmash is all it takes to end the game but at the same time I feel the move is a bit punish but at the same time, that move alone gives us a huge advantage over him. That alone could make an informed LM a bit afraid of it. A Good Lm tends to stay center stage and play a bit more patiently. I have very little experience with good Lm's though, so don't qoute me on that.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly it's easier to land than you think. One messed up spaced dash attack, grab or smash attack can be punished if you're fast enough. D-smash doesn't have that much start up.

No good Lil Mac is gonna really mis-space or even rush in blindly with a dash attack, in fact the little mac in my region plays surprisingly patient. This is a for glory tactic and isnt really viable unless its used for punishing,

 

[Fangblade]

Lucario:
50:50 He seems REALLY good in this game, with the rage factor and all.

Lil Mac:
60:40 or 55:45. If we're playing on FD I'd say our chances of winning are considerably worse. I see his Jab, backwards-roll, and counter causing problems for our camping game.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing is about lucario is that at low percents, he really doesn't have anything going for him as a character. His range sucks, no priority moves, nothing that lasts too long, nothing too quick, kinda laggy, predictable movements, no real pressure, no stupid or even relatively scary followups off of throws, decent damage and frame data, etc. The only thing that really makes him better is rage tbh lol
Thats why I say we beat him at low percents and have to really be careful at higher percents

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Little Mac, Lucario, Lucina, and Luigi.

 

[HyLeN]

For little mac i WAS going to post a link to a youtube match of my vs TheNotSoShyGuy from shockwave 16 but it said that i had to have 10 posts to do links SO if u guys wanna see what the TL vs Mac mu should be check out the video on Youtube.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Kryptonite is to Superman as the offstage is to Luigi. Onstage, Luigi is a monster. His combo game is Sheik level, except he has some serious Kill power with his SJP, Cyclone, and Smashes. Offstage, Luigi suffers a predictable recovery of Missile, Cyclone and SJP.

Toon Link is in a similar situation, with good stage control and hard hitting Aerials. Offstage our options are better with bomb hopping, zair and Spin Slash.

Luigi only has one projectile which he can follow up with a grab. Luigi's fireball is actually pretty useless in this matchup, since any of TL's projectiles make short work of it.

Speaking of projectiles, those are our best weapon against this green combobeast. His attacks are scary fast, but hilariously short. Camping out and playing the incrimental game makes it difficult for Luigi to approach, but when he does, much like Kirby, he gets work done.

 

[Deleted member]

We're no longer discussing Little Mac or Lucario. Lucina and Luigi end this week, and we're starting discussion on Mario and Marth.

 

[ILJ]

With Marth its the same as lucina.

With Mario everything helps since he is an overall good character in all facets.

Bairs - nairs - fairs - uairs all come in handy. I usually try to rack in utilt damage at first and put damage on with jc toss bomb combos + spamming projectiles.

Avoid being grabbed as he is going to approach you always.

 

[HyLeN]

Mario? Ban FD. You want as many platforms as possible;e, the more you have the harder it is for him to hit you. If he tries to start using cape for your projectiles, you can just keep throwing projectiles at him, he gains nothing while you're getting better stage control.

 

[Theis]

Playing against mario ive learned that its all a matter of how well you can bait mario with your projectiles.

Pros:

• you have 3 projectile options and he has only 1 cape
• you have slightly better mobility than mario

yep, I struggle against a lot of competent mario but even then its not as bad as playing against sheik.

Cons:

• He can kill you at earlier percents than you can
  
• his cape IS capable of reflecting more than 1 of your projectiles (so use them wisely)
• his Nair alone will beat you air to air unless you're using a Zair.

pretty much it comes down to outplaying mario and in theory, your bombs are going to be the main projectile you're guna try to hit him with. his cape can be troublesome if used properly (so even if you think about throwing bombs down at him, his cape WILL just send it straight back up to you). throwing bombs up can be an interesting mixup because if spaced correctly you can grab him as a punish for trying to cape you. cooking your bomb is another option so even if the cape does connect, it blows up an instant later. dispite all of this, mario has the tools to use your strongest assets against you so I feel the matchup is closer to a 35/65 in mario's favor. its a struggle but not impossible.

When it comes to playing against Marth, Its pretty straight forward.... you keep him away with every toy you have.

Pros:

• you have a strong zoning options
• you do have better mobility than marth
• marth is not floaty enough to avoid the second hit of your fsmash
• his high recovery options are very limited so 70% of the time you can assume hes coming from below and just gimp him with bombs
  

Cons:

• his sword is longer than yours
  
• the tip will kill you (any anyone else) at really early percentages
• though you are more mobile than marth, he can still just jump over all your projectiles and get too close and personal if you're not careful
• his moves come out faster than yours so if hes boxing you, chances are he's guna win.
• his counter has a hit delay and it will catch you if you run straight into it so try to respect it even if it is activated from a projectile.

Marth is a solid character and hes been consistently a solid character since melee. the key to this matchup is to out zone marth and keep him away. once marth gets in striking range he's guna try to stay there so having a bomb in hand is helpful since he's guna have to respect your option to throw it at him. once he's off stage bomb into fair works most of the time. in general though its definately not impossible for marth to get past your projectiles, it just takes a lot of work, and because of this I'd say the matchup is a 55/45 in toonlink's favor.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Mario, Marth, Megaman, and Meta Knight.

 

[ILJ]

Against mega man it's comes down to who can play there characters style better. Mega man is like a wall..You can't jump past him or else the f-air comes. Spam projectiles with intentions of hitting him and when he's vulnerable look for the jc bomb toss combo to nair/fair.

 

[incrediblej]

On megaman vs toon link I say the match is in TL favor because his hero shield stops most of megas approches except for leaf shield and saw blade, it also completely stops megas side smash at any charge so it would be more a game of patience having to stop moving and then moveing again, not sure about air game though

Against mario all I have to say against a mario who can use his cape good you can't rely on arrows because they are slow, using boomerang is more for surprise because of TL startup for throwing it, I say bombs are your safest bet when it comes to using projectiles against him

edit1: forgot customs on megaman he has an alt for leaf shield that takes care of projectiles which can probably cause many problems

Edit 2: what some marth mains told me on the character competitive impressions board

What emblem lord said:

Marth's problem is literally his reward for actually making the right decision. I do what I'm supposed to do and I get 10%. Diddy does what he's supposed to do and gets 30% or a kill.

Marth is NOT balanced in terms of risk vs reward. That's the crux of the issue. I space a perfect tipper fair and get no follow-up and I only get 10%. This is not a balanced risk v reward ratio. I get a grab and I do maybe 15% with a frame perfect Uair after a d-throw. Sheik can get around 25% or more depending on her opponent. Let's not talk about Diddy and ZSS. Forget about actual optimal play.

That's it in a nutshell.

What quick hero said
Marth vs Toon Link is about even. Toon Link's projectiles are annoying for Marth, but Marth can utilize the time to set them up by SH AD and then just closing the distance. Marth may have troubles hitting you but if he can land those f-airs then you better get stage control fast or you will lose because you will be frame trapped into an f-smash or shield breaker sometime because you're off-stage. If you can dodge / he whiffs any aerials then it's your time to grab him and send him off-stage so you can get some zoning control again.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread is currently analyzing Toon Link. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Toon Link match-up, Toon Link's discussion period will last until the end of 2/19.

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't had much experience against Marth, but in my experience our boomerang seems to be a lot of trouble for him, especially when angled. Other than that, he seems so much easier to deal with in this game, though he still gimps the crap out of us. Also, even though the animations for Marth's uair and dair may look like they would out-range our uair and dair, they don't. As for stages, I would pick FD or SV against him. I think the match-up ratio is probably 50:50, but I don't have enough experience with Marth to say for certain.

As for Megaman, imo it's 50:50 or maybe even 52:48 TL's favor. Camp him hard, and avoid going for any moves that will leave you stick in one spot for too land (spin attack, dsmash, fsmash, etc) that will leave you at risk of getting. Megaman's kill moves are very laggy and hard to land, so take advantage of this. His jump punch thing OoS is also a threat, but if it misses you can have a field day punishing it. His usmash is extremely punishable as well.

edit1: forgot customs on megaman he has an alt for leaf shield that takes care of projectiles which can probably cause many problems what he's supposed to do and gets 30% or a kill.

Just to make sure it's clear, we're not talking about customs.

 

[Fangblade]

55:45
Pros
-Our projectiles can build a wall & forces marth to approach. (He has no projectiles of his own).
-Marth makes for a tall target, easier to connect moves while in the air.
-We can use his Vertical recovery to our advantage.
-His dash limits his options.
Cons
-His counter will be used for reads, and can counter our projectiles.
-He's great at edge-guarding, and does well under opponents.
-Has an aggressive play-style, and will position himself close to you.
-Our shield's kinda small, is prone to being shattered.
While we can camp easy enough, Marth will want to position himself a sword space away from TL as much as he can. When he's approaching he'll likely walk so he can Ftilt/Shield projectiles. If he's running he has less options. If we're spamming he may get in close and retreat w/ rolls & dish out Dtilts when he has a chance. .

Move that'll be seen often: Fair, Uair, Grab, Ftilt, Dtilt, all smashes & Specials.

 

[Deleted member]

We're no longer discussing Mario or Marth, and are now discussing Megaman, Meta Knight, Game & Watch, and Ness.

For those who don't know, Game & Watch can bucket our bombs, and Ness' energy field thing eats our bombs, too. These shouldn't be too much of a problem if you can bait the opponent into using these moves so you can punish them, though.