Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[PSIBoy]

Well, Toon Link can wall out Ness with projectiles, making it difficult for him to approach. Of course he can absorb bomb explosions, so be wary of that. Ness doesn't really have any long-range answers to TL's wall besides batting the projectiles back of PKT1 (the ball of electricity), but both can be unreliable. When Ness gets in, do not get grabbed. Ness's grab game is extremely strong and you will likely take at least 7% (likely more) if you do get grabbed and then thrown. His b-throw also KO's really early towards the edge. His f-air and n-air are disjoined and f-air can combo into itself while n-air is his best spacing tool. U-air is also a great KO move Ness has and can be used out of short hop. His ground game however is not too good outside dash attack (which leaves him open) and his jab for racking up damage. One thing Ness would likely try to do is to use PKT1 to juggle you in the air, but he has to be careful because of d-air. TL can KO with b-throw, but he cannot combo out of throws like Ness can nor can he KO as early as him. TL's close up game isn't bad, but I think Ness would outplay him close up slightly. Z-air is still a great spacing tool since Ness doesn't have anything reliable to reach out from. I would say 50:50 (even) or 55:45 TL (slight advantage).

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I am a Mega Ma(i)n and I feel the matchup is slightly in Mega's favor - maybe 55-45

Most of Links projectiles can be stuffed by Mega's lemons (Jab) so it makes it difficult to spam them on TL's side. And on the other hand TL's shield stops a lot of Mega's. These are long games usually and are mostly won based off who can do a better job evading the other's projectiles.

Mega's Dair can spike TL which is another plus for Mega.

 

[mega4000]

Is there a toon link mainer who wants to play long sets with me in order to test this matchup more? I'm not from america, but i've a fast internet connection and there are americans that have no lag with me, so we could give it a try. If there is a toon link avaliable with a lot of free time pls send me an inbox in order to test this matchup deeply.

 

[p1ay6ack]

this match up is dependent on player style, like i'm usually a rush down megaman, so i'll always throw a projectile, then get at you with BAIR or fire swords. if you shield it, then i get landing lag on your shield, and you can easily spam a moves, and wait for my getup and make a read. if megaman gives you distance, just spam your projectiles at him until he approaches you, espcially the arrow.

 

[CopShowGuy]

On megaman vs toon link I say the match is in TL favor because his hero shield stops most of megas approches except for leaf shield and saw blade, it also completely stops megas side smash at any charge so it would be more a game of patience having to stop moving and then moveing again, not sure about air game though

I'm a firm believer that Link and T. Link's natural shields aren't a pro or a con for them. It requires Link to stand still, crouch, or walk to use it and won't protect him from headshots. It may stop a ground approach from Mega Man but it won't benefit the Link player either. You have to move at some point to do damage.

 

[p1ay6ack]

btw, against high skilled megaman's, don't let him get you off the stage. link doesn't do so well at recovering from off stage against megaman, and his trajectory can be easily read , so megaman can do alot of pressure with back air sword slash, and down air knuckle. usually, he'll try to dunk you with knuckle, cuz link's up b move is pretty much vertical. to get back advanatge, try to get back at the center, and read megaman's projectile game, and punish when appropiate. as link, you'd want to stay in the center to keep megaman from doing shenaningans

 

[Deleted member]

I almost forgot, I asked about the TL match-up in the MK board a while ago. The two responses I got:

Person 1: "I never liked the matchup too much in Brawl. And with MK's lack of priority, I'm going to hate the match even more now...LOL"

Person 2: "I believe MK would want to be out of TL sword/hookshot range but close enough to Dash attack/grab. That way TL will have a hard time throwing projectiles without getting punished. In the air MK needs to be aware of Uair and Dair, but with Fair and Bair I'm not sure who has better reach."

As for the second one, it should go without saying that challenging MK's fair or bair with our own aerials is a bad idea since we have too much start-up and ending lag on ours. Also, isn't bair one of MK's major kill moves now?

Well, Toon Link can wall out Ness with projectiles, making it difficult for him to approach. Of course he can absorb bomb explosions, so be wary of that. Ness doesn't really have any long-range answers to TL's wall besides batting the projectiles back of PKT1 (the ball of electricity), but both can be unreliable. When Ness gets in, do not get grabbed. Ness's grab game is extremely strong and you will likely take at least 7% (likely more) if you do get grabbed and then thrown. His b-throw also KO's really early towards the edge. His f-air and n-air are disjoined and f-air can combo into itself while n-air is his best spacing tool. U-air is also a great KO move Ness has and can be used out of short hop. His ground game however is not too good outside dash attack (which leaves him open) and his jab for racking up damage. One thing Ness would likely try to do is to use PKT1 to juggle you in the air, but he has to be careful because of d-air. TL can KO with b-throw, but he cannot combo out of throws like Ness can nor can he KO as early as him. TL's close up game isn't bad, but I think Ness would outplay him close up slightly. Z-air is still a great spacing tool since Ness doesn't have anything reliable to reach out from. I would say 50:50 (even) or 55:45 TL (slight advantage).

I'm surprised you say 50:50 or even 55:45 our favor for the match-up ratio. Also, can't at least one of our projectiles cancel out PK thunder while Ness is recovering? I might be thinking of something else completely different, so correct me if I'm wrong. As for stages, I imagine that FD would be the best to go to, and BF is definitely a stage you don't want to get taken to.

I am a Mega Ma(i)n and I feel the matchup is slightly in Mega's favor - maybe 55-45

Most of Links projectiles can be stuffed by Mega's lemons (Jab) so it makes it difficult to spam them on TL's side. And on the other hand TL's shield stops a lot of Mega's. These are long games usually and are mostly won based off who can do a better job evading the other's projectiles.

Mega's Dair can spike TL which is another plus for Mega.

Iirc only the boomerang gets eaten by the lemons. The arrows go right over lemons, making them a pretty important tool in this match-up. Speaking of lemons, they make zair pretty hard to use in this match-up.

btw, against high skilled megaman's, don't let him get you off the stage. link doesn't do so well at recovering from off stage against megaman, and his trajectory can be easily read , so megaman can do alot of pressure with back air sword slash, and down air knuckle. usually, he'll try to dunk you with knuckle, cuz link's up b move is pretty much vertical. to get back advanatge, try to get back at the center, and read megaman's projectile game, and punish when appropiate. as link, you'd want to stay in the center to keep megaman from doing shenaningans

Yeah, TLs should generally recover with the tether because of this. Recovering with spin attack is begging to get spiked.

 

[PSIBoy]

I'm surprised you say 50:50 or even 55:45 our favor for the match-up ratio. Also, can't at least one of our projectiles cancel out PK thunder while Ness is recovering? I might be thinking of something else completely different, so correct me if I'm wrong. As for stages, I imagine that FD would be the best to go to, and BF is definitely a stage you don't want to get taken to.

Hmm? You were thinking I would rate it slightly in 55-45 Ness's favor? As for canceling PKT, I do believe PKT can be canceled out with projectiles, though I'm not sure about initially: it does go through characters now, so it might go through projectiles... But I don't know. Ness has strong tools, but he's more close-range. If the TL can keep Ness away, he's going to have a difficult time, and Ness of course has to be wary of possible gimps. But close up, I'd defiantly say Ness has the advantage, plus TL also has to worry about gimps too.

 

[RamenKing1]

I think it's about 55-45 in TL's favor, the main reason: bombs. Our MBs don't make it explode and it will be a guaranteed hit. Also, since TL's fast, if we block a projectile, TL can rush in (if spaced properly) and grab MegaMan, effectively killing him with a backthrow at high percents. Like somebody else said, it's all about who can play their character better, as well. MegaMan is also a heavy, meaning TL can uptilt combo MegaMan. @ HyLeN would know, he's had matchup experience from myself.

 

[FrameImperfect]

55:45 for G&W maybe closer to 50:50

This is one of my most played matchups, so here's what I have to say. Both characters have some strong points where the other lacks immensely.

Toon (as well as the bigger Link) are far better than G&W on the ground or in a neutral state of the match. Even though G&W can bucket so many things, Toon is a character that is able to wall off G&W with his arrows, bombs, and boomerang. Toon's Boomerang is actually better than Link's in the sense that neither Link wants to be near G&W, as G&W's grab and tech chase options are better than Toon's. You'll want to keep chipping away at G&W's percentage and close in for the kill when the opportunity arises. Also be on the lookout for when G&W runs toward you, which is frequent, and it leads to dash attacks, so predict accordingly.

As for the air game, G&W excels over Toon. For you Toon players out there, I see Franklin the Turtle and credit cards in your future. This is why you have to keep a bomb in your hand most of the time since Toon's aerials don't have as much range as G&W's. This also leads into the edgeguarding game, where again G&W has the edge. As a side note, Bucket has a secondary effect, and it'sit's used to slow down vertical movement while increasing horizontal distance, so G&W is able to recover easier. You can use this to your advantage if possible because of how long it takes for G&W to put the bucket away. If Toon is on the receiving end and offstage, there's not much you can do other than a Hail Mary stagespike. Hope for the bomb in your hand to explode; I'm sure Bomb Recovery is still possible like in Melee/Brawl.

 

[HyLeN]

Megaman is annoying to deal with but if you stay in the air and just throw crap it can be a pretty easy win. Ness mu i play a lot i feel it's dead even 5-5 and we can body him with a good platform camp game. That mu i feel whoever gets the first kill wins the match. As for gnw, just don't let him bucket bombs. Besides him getting a lucky bomb bucket kill the mu should be free. MK can be hard once he applies pressure but you should be winning the neutral with a good zoning game. Once you have him walled out it's incredibly hard for him to brake that wall because lack of range/brawl nado/up b.

 

[Deleted member]

We're no longer discussing Megaman and Meta Knight, and are now discussing Game & Watch, Ness, Olimar, and Pacman. I'll put 50:50 for Megaman's match-up ratio since we all agree that it's even or around even.

 

[ILJ]

At the tns regional tournament in tampa, Florida, I had a chance to VS. Myrans olimar (He placed 33rd in Apex with Olimar). I placed 17th out of 170 entrants with baby tink btw.

I managed to beat him but it was not easy. Basically with olimar, the better camper wins. You have to camp and spam projectiles and when you have an opportunity to land a bomb combo do so. Do not over think this match-up. Olimar wants to spam his pikmin....we spam the tri-force... the one who can spam and block the others spam best wins. Learn to power shield folks.

 

[Nu~]

The matchup against Pac-Man seems to be 55:45 or 60:40 in Pac-Man's favor.
It is hard to wall Pac-Man out with your projectiles because the power pellet in our Side B absorbs the boomerang, arrows, and bombs.
After the pellet clashes with your spam, we can pick the pellet up and eat it to heal 2 percent. The hydrant is another wall we have that can meatsheild your projectiles which will lower its health (it has 13% HP) allowing us to launch it easier.

The ground game belongs to Pac-Man because of our faster attacks and multitude of traps, including the on-stage trampoline that forces you into the air. However, you can sit back and use projectiles until the trampoline is gone (projectiles that we can use to heal ourselves).
The air game is tied or slightly in our favor because you have better range in your attacks, but ours come out quicker. The only aerials we have with equal or better range are our Bair and uair. We also have better aerial mobility.

You have better range and more disjointed attacks, but we make up for our lack of range with 8 different fruits. Every fruit clashes with every projectile you have except for the Galaxian, bell, and key.
The galaxian eats your projectiles and keeps going, giving us an easier approach. We can even catch the galaxian in mid air to start the process over.
The key just rips through everything you have and does a hefty 15% if you don't avoid it in time.
The bell is an amazing anti air if you try to approach with spaced fairs, and it acts as a kill confirm if we land it at higher percentages.

Toon Link's game naturally revolves around his bombs, but Pac-Man has a multitude of ways to cancel them out and halt your approaches. Nether of us can camp each other out (unless you allow Pac-Man to set up) but Pac-Man has an easier time getting in and dishing out damage.

 

[Ridel]

I feel the Olimar Toon Link match-up is 50:50 or 45:55 in Toon Link's favor. Toon Link has so many projectiles that can completely negate Olimar's camping game with Pikmin, which in turn forces the Oli to approach and the only way to do so would be to either keep doing run up shields or jumping. Run up shields are not safe as if you mess up the timing even once you can end up taking a lot of spam damage, jumping isn't safe either as Olimar's air speed does not allow him to get very far and he could be punished upon landing. Though I feel if you are on a stage with an upper platform it becomes a bit easier for the Oli to deal with it but it still shuts down his Pikmin. Tink's problem is if the Oli does get in and manages to get a grab. IF the Oli is able to get in a grab the Tink is going to have a lot of trouble gettting out of Olimar's reach as Tink is completely out ranged by Olimar in neutral and has little options for punishing Olimar. Tink's grab can suffice but it is really risky as it has a lot of ending lag, though you may be able to catch the Oli off guard with it. I fell this match-up is also heavily stage dependent mainly the big difference is FD compared to Battlefield. On FD it's really really easy to shut down Oli's camoing game by countering it with your own. Uncharged arrows, boomerangs, and bombs can easily halt Oli's Pikmin and force an approach. So on FD I'd say it was slightly in Tink's favor, though on Battlefield I'd say it's 50:50. The platforms on Battlefield can really help the Olimar with the spam and allow him to get in with little risk, though the match-up get's tricky if the Tink decides to try to shark through the platforms, Tink has some safe options for shutting down characters on platforms moves like N-Air, angled Boomerangs, Bombs, and his Z-Air are relatively safe options for sharking. Though once again if the Tink miss-spaces a N-Air or accidentally land on the platform with Olimar in his shield, he could take a heavy punish.

I'm no real expert on the Tink match-up as only one of my friends actually plays him and I've only played one other really good Tink in For Glory (just yesterday in fact) which is where I got most of the information regarding FD. For now I'd say it's 50:50 though this could change dependent on how I or other Olimar's start performing in the match-up. I would love it if any Toon Link mains would want to throw around some friendlies as that would give me a much better perspective of the match-up.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hello Toon Link boards, the Fox boards finally got our own MU discussion thread. One of the characters we'll be discussing for our first week is Toon Link:
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-aircraft-report-fox-match-up-discussion-thread.393061/

Come contribute some of your input and experience against the wily Fox.

 

[Deleted member]

Alrighty, lets get this started!

50/50 but in my personal opinion 55/45
Stages:
FD/SV/T&C
Battlefield is kinda iffy.
Avoid Halberd, Delfino, Castle Siege.
Lylat can mess up his recovery and stage can mess him up as well, but low boundaries can benefit him.
Duck Hunt is questionable

General things to know about Ness:
- They're generally going to use a lot of PK Fire, so be prepared for that. PK Fire leads to grab/dash attack/fsmash (at lower percent).
- Their DThrow combos to Fair strings, or a UAir.
- PK Thunder juggles extremely well and has a lot of priority.
- Their general approaches are going to consist of Dash Shield (looking for a grab or OOS Aerial)/SH Fair/SH Nair. Dash attack will be used for quick punish scenarios
- Bthrow is their main kill option. Other kill options include UAir/Dsmash/BAir. They can kill with PKT2 so be careful challenging it. More risky and unsafe ways for them to kill are Dair off stage/Fair strings to the edge of the stage (which is why i recommend avoiding walks-offs/low boundary stages)/Fsmash (situational and laggy).
- PSI Magnet absorbs bombs.
- Ness's usually land into the ground with UAir or NAir.
- Ness has a very fast dash grab. Don't take any risks when close.

Now for specific things in the matchup:
- Ness can't really approach us and PK fire loses to all projectiles (meaning it will hit and end up going to the actual fire part)
- We can stay out of his PK fire range, which is mid range combat. If he gets in this range especially at low percent try to get him out or reset the position. Smashville is especially useful because of the platform to retreat to.
- Try not to be above Ness if he's on the ground. Uair is very good and has a lot of priority, and it kills/comes out really fast. You can throw a bomb at it if you see it but it beats out boomerang.
- They will try to PK thunder us off stage. Throw a bomb or any projectiles at it because those cancel PKT out.
- When he's recovering, we don't have to go off stage to challenge his recovery. Throw a projectile at him (bomb preferred) becaause even if the PKT goes through it, Ness will hit the bomb and shorten his distance making him potentially miss the stage.
- Zair is tricky in this matchup because if he shields it you are in range of PK Fire so definitely be cautious.
- Be wary of throwing bombs alone towards him 100% of the time, since PSI magnet can absorb bombs and heal him (DOUBLES TEAM ANYONE!?). If you see the PSI magnet or think its coming, throw a boomerang/arrow first and then throw a bomb. Another option is to run towards him, RAR->SH->bomb fakeout fast fall nair (meaning throw the bomb backward then catch with nair). First hit of nair will come out and it doesnt have much lag, he is in PSI magnet so will not punish it is for the most part safe. If you dont get the hit, just retreat. Another option is to run at him and Up B with a bomb if they are in PSI magnet. And finally, you can give him the bomb percent and then grab or followup if you want. You will be healing him and hurtin him at the same time, depends on the situation.
- By any means avoid being juggled. Ness will get a lot of percent from this.
- After Dthrow, I usually DI up because I'd rather take a UAir than 98928259 fairs. This percent really matters.
- Be extra cautious of a Ness in rage. Bthrow is very deadly.
- Angled boomerang downward from the air is very good in this matchup. It covers a lot of space and we can cover the remaining space with bombs and arrows.
- Don't overcommit to anything because Ness has hard punishes. If you see that their main approach is dash shield, then beat it with a grab. You will need to do some baiting however.
- While ness does do a solid job juggling, he also has trouble being juggled. Ness doesn't have a very good move going downward, so take advantage with Uair's long lasting hitbox.
- Be careful when on the ledge. Ness's like to go for DSmash (the first hit) cause it sends us at an angle we can't really recover from. It doesn't have much lag either so don't challenge it.
- Ness is midweight, will die from a back throw at around 120-130.
- Play extremely careful and slow in this matchup. One mistake could cost you A LOT. Don't take unnecessary risks. You should be good otherwise.
- SH Nair (retreat when it comes out) is safe on Ness's shield.
- Be careful of Dash Attack. I can't really explain but its wierd and good. Punishable on shield tho.
- Since Ness has a slow recovery, and if you aren't confident in gimping him, just wait till he grabs the ledge and trump him to Bair. Should keep him in a pretty bad spot for a while.

 

[PSIBoy]

Alrighty, lets get this started!

50/50 but in my personal opinion 55/45
Stages:
FD/SV/T&C
Battlefield is kinda iffy.
Avoid Halberd, Delfino, Castle Siege.
Lylat can mess up his recovery and stage can mess him up as well, but low boundaries can benefit him.
Duck Hunt is questionable

General things to know about Ness:
- They're generally going to use a lot of PK Fire, so be prepared for that. PK Fire leads to grab/dash attack/fsmash (at lower percent).
- Their DThrow combos to Fair strings, or a UAir.
- PK Thunder juggles extremely well and has a lot of priority.
- Their general approaches are going to consist of Dash Shield (looking for a grab or OOS Aerial)/SH Fair/SH Nair. Dash attack will be used for quick punish scenarios
- Bthrow is their main kill option. Other kill options include UAir/Dsmash/BAir. They can kill with PKT2 so be careful challenging it. More risky and unsafe ways for them to kill are Dair off stage/Fair strings to the edge of the stage (which is why i recommend avoiding walks-offs/low boundary stages)/Fsmash (situational and laggy).
- PSI Magnet absorbs bombs.
- Ness's usually land into the ground with UAir or NAir.
- Ness has a very fast dash grab. Don't take any risks when close.

Now for specific things in the matchup:
- Ness can't really approach us and PK fire loses to all projectiles (meaning it will hit and end up going to the actual fire part)
- We can stay out of his PK fire range, which is mid range combat. If he gets in this range especially at low percent try to get him out or reset the position. Smashville is especially useful because of the platform to retreat to.
- Try not to be above Ness if he's on the ground. Uair is very good and has a lot of priority, and it kills/comes out really fast. You can throw a bomb at it if you see it but it beats out boomerang.
- They will try to PK thunder us off stage. Throw a bomb or any projectiles at it because those cancel PKT out.
- When he's recovering, we don't have to go off stage to challenge his recovery. Throw a projectile at him (bomb preferred) becaause even if the PKT goes through it, Ness will hit the bomb and shorten his distance making him potentially miss the stage.
- Zair is tricky in this matchup because if he shields it you are in range of PK Fire so definitely be cautious.
- Be wary of throwing bombs alone towards him 100% of the time, since PSI magnet can absorb bombs and heal him (DOUBLES TEAM ANYONE!?). If you see the PSI magnet or think its coming, throw a boomerang/arrow first and then throw a bomb. Another option is to run towards him, RAR->SH->bomb fakeout fast fall nair (meaning throw the bomb backward then catch with nair). First hit of nair will come out and it doesnt have much lag, he is in PSI magnet so will not punish it is for the most part safe. If you dont get the hit, just retreat. Another option is to run at him and Up B with a bomb if they are in PSI magnet. And finally, you can give him the bomb percent and then grab or followup if you want. You will be healing him and hurtin him at the same time, depends on the situation.
- By any means avoid being juggled. Ness will get a lot of percent from this.
- After Dthrow, I usually DI up because I'd rather take a UAir than 98928259 fairs. This percent really matters.
- Be extra cautious of a Ness in rage. Bthrow is very deadly.
- Angled boomerang downward from the air is very good in this matchup. It covers a lot of space and we can cover the remaining space with bombs and arrows.
- Don't overcommit to anything because Ness has hard punishes. If you see that their main approach is dash shield, then beat it with a grab. You will need to do some baiting however.
- While ness does do a solid job juggling, he also has trouble being juggled. Ness doesn't have a very good move going downward, so take advantage with Uair's long lasting hitbox.
- Be careful when on the ledge. Ness's like to go for DSmash (the first hit) cause it sends us at an angle we can't really recover from. It doesn't have much lag either so don't challenge it.
- Ness is midweight, will die from a back throw at around 120-130.
- Play extremely careful and slow in this matchup. One mistake could cost you A LOT. Don't take unnecessary risks. You should be good otherwise.
- SH Nair (retreat when it comes out) is safe on Ness's shield.
- Be careful of Dash Attack. I can't really explain but its wierd and good. Punishable on shield tho.
- Since Ness has a slow recovery, and if you aren't confident in gimping him, just wait till he grabs the ledge and trump him to Bair. Should keep him in a pretty bad spot for a while.

Good Nesses probably won't throw out PK Fire very often. They mainly use it as a punish tool. I'm still working on getting out of that habit.

I know at around 40% it isn't very easy to even get x2 f-air as Ness, which would be 14%, and I think u-air does 14% already. But I guess stage control.

If you leave yourself vulnerable on the ledge then yes, we Nesses will likely go for d-smash. But if you don't stay on the ledge long enough or grab the edge twice, you won't have to worry about that.

Other than that, very good analysis that I agree with.

 

[-Se7en-]

General Notes on Toon Link Vs Mr Game and Watch

Game and Watch has grab follow-ups based on how high Toon Link's percentage is so you have to respect his grab game (I disrespected it one time and got Uthrow > 9'd and lost my stock because of a grab at 0%).

He can also Uthrow > oil panic at low Percents too which leads to another thing, Game and Watch can bucket bombs or the explosion (I can't remember). So either swarm him with projectiles or mix between projectiles and fighting with the Master Sword.

His Uair can keep you in the air for awhile, so take advantage by pulling a bomb or take some time to be smart about your landing - G&W's Usmash has invincibility and kills mad early, so don't try to land above him because you will just lose your stocks.

On the bright side, we kill him mad early too, I killed one around 40% on Smashville with a stale Fsmash (no rage and the DI was okay). Our Uair has TONS of hitstun so we can juggle him but we don't need to be greedy with it because if we miss we will get punished pretty hard since the move lasts forever. Utilt is a good anti-air and can usually lead into a Bair or Nair.

From my experience it's 50/50 but you do have to be super creative to beat a good G&W.

 

[Deleted member]

Good Nesses probably won't throw out PK Fire very often. They mainly use it as a punish tool. I'm still working on getting out of that habit.

I know at around 40% it isn't very easy to even get x2 f-air as Ness, which would be 14%, and I think u-air does 14% already. But I guess stage control.

If you leave yourself vulnerable on the ledge then yes, we Nesses will likely go for d-smash. But if you don't stay on the ledge long enough or grab the edge twice, you won't have to worry about that.

Other than that, very good analysis that I agree with.

forgot to add add a few things, but yeah i covered the general stuff. I've played Nakat and fow fow couple of times and just saying what I have experienced/seen. I didn't want to imply that good Ness players just sit there and pk fire but it is an important part of Ness, especially in the beginning of the match.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't believe I've been forgetting to mention this for so long, but it's possible to dair spike Pacman to his death when he's using his trampoline to recover off-stage. Since his trampoline bounces up anyone who uses it, the trampoline will always prevent you from falling to your death, at least from what I found after testing it quite a bit. It doesn't always work for some reason, though. I tried testing around with it a bunch, and all I could find is that dair seemed to be more likely to send him to the blast zone after the first bounce or while Pacman is on the way up from a bounce. Those could just be coincidences, though, but there could also be something to them. Other than that, whether Pacman gets caught by the trampoline or not after a dair spike seems to me to be almost random. If someone else could test around with this that would help a lot.

The matchup against Pac-Man seems to be 55:45 or 60:40 in Pac-Man's favor.
It is hard to wall Pac-Man out with your projectiles because the power pellet in our Side B absorbs the boomerang, arrows, and bombs.
After the pellet clashes with your spam, we can pick the pellet up and eat it to heal 2 percent. The hydrant is another wall we have that can meatsheild your projectiles which will lower its health (it has 13% HP) allowing us to launch it easier.

The ground game belongs to Pac-Man because of our faster attacks and multitude of traps, including the on-stage trampoline that forces you into the air. However, you can sit back and use projectiles until the trampoline is gone (projectiles that we can use to heal ourselves).
The air game is tied or slightly in our favor because you have better range in your attacks, but ours come out quicker. The only aerials we have with equal or better range are our Bair and uair. We also have better aerial mobility.

You have better range and more disjointed attacks, but we make up for our lack of range with 8 different fruits. Every fruit clashes with every projectile you have except for the Galaxian, bell, and key.
The galaxian eats your projectiles and keeps going, giving us an easier approach. We can even catch the galaxian in mid air to start the process over.
The key just rips through everything you have and does a hefty 15% if you don't avoid it in time.
The bell is an amazing anti air if you try to approach with spaced fairs, and it acts as a kill confirm if we land it at higher percentages.

Toon Link's game naturally revolves around his bombs, but Pac-Man has a multitude of ways to cancel them out and halt your approaches. Nether of us can camp each other out (unless you allow Pac-Man to set up) but Pac-Man has an easier time getting in and dishing out damage.

I agree that the match-up is in Pacman's favor, but 40:60 is a bit much since he definitely doesn't beat TL that badly. And while the hydrant can occasionally cause issues for TLs because of us not expecting it so accidentally throwing a projectile at it, making it easier to launch, a TL who knows what they're doing is going to be more likely to try to launch that hydrant at you. Same with the pellet thing, any TL that keeps throwing their projectiles in a predictable enough way so Pacman can throw out a pellet and heal 2% from it is really bad. As for Pacman's projectiles, personally I have a pretty easy time just power shielding them if the opponent uses them from far away like that, so overall I'd say we beat him at camping. His air game definitely beats ours, though, and I'd say it actually beats ours a lot harder than his ground game does.

 

[Nu~]

I can't believe I've been forgetting to mention this for so long, but it's possible to dair spike Pacman to his death when he's using his trampoline to recover off-stage. Since his trampoline bounces up anyone who uses it, the trampoline will always prevent you from falling to your death, at least from what I found after testing it quite a bit. It doesn't always work for some reason, though. I tried testing around with it a bunch, and all I could find is that dair seemed to be more likely to send him to the blast zone after the first bounce or while Pacman is on the way up from a bounce. Those could just be coincidences, though, but there could also be something to them. Other than that, whether Pacman gets caught by the trampoline or not after a dair spike seems to me to be almost random. If someone else could test around with this that would help a lot.


I agree that the match-up is in Pacman's favor, but 40:60 is a bit much since he definitely doesn't beat TL that badly. And while the hydrant can occasionally cause issues for TLs because of us not expecting it so accidentally throwing a projectile at it, making it easier to launch, a TL who knows what they're doing is going to be more likely to try to launch that hydrant at you. Same with the pellet thing, any TL that keeps throwing their projectiles in a predictable enough way so Pacman can throw out a pellet and heal 2% from it is really bad. As for Pacman's projectiles, personally I have a pretty easy time just power shielding them if the opponent uses them from far away like that, so overall I'd say we beat him at camping. His air game definitely beats ours, though, and I'd say it actually beats ours a lot harder than his ground game does.

Completely agree. Pac-Man isn't a camping character anyway, since as you said, his projectiles are easily powershielded.
Launching the hydrant may be hard for toon link however, since he has to commit to a smash attack since none of his other attacks can one shot it (except dair, but that's very punishable.)

Also, the trampoline always saves me from spikes. The only time it didn't was when someone got me in frame one. The trampoline came out, but my bounce animation didn't yet.

 

[Deleted member]

50/50 (although if you're not used to Olimar it may look like a terrible matchup. I consider it one of our HARDEST matchups AND one of our most EVEN matchups.)

Stages:
FD, SV, T&C,
BF
Delfino, Halberd, Duck Hunt
Castle Siege (AVOID BY ANY MEANS), Lylat

- I'm going to say this right now. We can't camp olimar for the most part. We have to use a sort of "in and out" playstyle where we weave into close combat and then keep him away when we are winning (preferably with a stock lead).
- His pikmin are in set order and it is beneficial to know this order because it will dictate how we play/where to be in certain situations. The order is Red, Yellow, Blue, White, and Purple. He can only pluck 3 at a time. Because of this, Olimars can plan out their lineup and have the best pikmin to deal with our keepaway.
- You need to play VERY evasive and at the same time be able to throw projectiles at him; that is the main reason I say it is hard.
- When pikmin are attached to us, we cannot throw bombs at Olimar. It will just hit the pikmin on us. However, it will not hurt us. The best way to get pikmin off in my experience is Nair, Bair, and Ftilt. If you do happen to have a bomb in hand while pikmin are on you, especially Red pikmin since they aren't hurt by bombs, you can Ftilt with the bomb in hand by holding down and pressing Cstick forward.
- Purples are very dangerous to us. They go throw our projectiles and disrupt our movement. Be very cautious around purples.
- Olimars will generally want to wall us out with pikmin throw, but they wont be throwing all their pikmin. Again, make sure you know which pikmin they have on their lineup. If they have a red pikmin you're going to want to be careful where you pull a bomb. If they have a purple pikmin you're going to want to be careful where you land/approach because it can kill and disrupt our keepaway if thrown. If they have white pikmin try avoiding or killing them if possible because those are the main percent rackers. Blue pikmin at high percents are ESPECIALLY danagerous because those are his kill throw pikmin. If he grabs you with a blue pikmin at high percent, up throw will do the job for them. Yellow pikmin aerials are very good, so take note of this as well.
- At low percent, Olimar can do a lot of percent with his grab combos. Be careful of being grabbed because he does have great followups at mid percent as well.
- Unlike brawl, his smashes are very punishable on shield, so don't be afraid of them. On the contrary, don't be too obvious in the air where they can catch us with an Up Smash.
- Be very careful of Olimar's jab. He can do jab 1+2 to grab and then nasty followups off that grab, leading to almost 40% or more.
- Olimar can attack out of his Up B, but that puts him in special fall after the attack. Other than that, we can make it hard for him to recover by putting out a lot of projectiles. Olimars will try to recover under the stage if there's too much pressure to recover on one side, so be on the lookout for that. If he's too low, he has to throw away pikmin to go higher, so be ready to deal with olimar without pikmin. Make it hell for him to pluck out his lineup.
- Overall, we can juggle olimar pretty well and kill him pretty easily because he is light. Bthrow will kill around 115-120.
- Zair is very good in spacing as usual, but don't be too obvious. If you do it too much, Olimar's will catch on and wait for the jump to run up and Usmash you.
- SH Nair is very good at spacing in this matchup. Not as ranged as Brawl nair but still safe on shield (first hit).
- We generally want to do aerial angled boomerang downward to cover Olimar's space. Full hop is preferred.
- RAR Bair seems very good in this matchup but I have to test more on this.
- Up B is amazing for punishes/reads at lower percent because not only does it put decent amount of damage/knockback on Olimar, but it puts a lot of damage on his pikmin and potentially kill them depending on which pikmin it is.
- I find the most dangerous lineups to be 1 Blue and 2 Purples,and Blue Red Purple.
- Ftilt is amazing in this matchup. It kills all pikmin on you/around you, is pretty quick, and send olimar at a bad recovery angle if at high percent.

I'll try to get some analysis from Rich Brown and Myran as well soon. This is most of what I have for now.

 

[Deleted member]

Completely agree. Pac-Man isn't a camping character anyway, since as you said, his projectiles are easily powershielded.
Launching the hydrant may be hard for toon link however, since he has to commit to a smash attack since none of his other attacks can one shot it (except dair, but that's very punishable.)

Also, the trampoline always saves me from spikes. The only time it didn't was when someone got me in frame one. The trampoline came out, but my bounce animation didn't yet.

Personally I've found launching the hydrant to actually be pretty easy, especially if the water has sent Pacman away from it. Toon Link can just throw projectiles at it on the way to it then can knock it away with pretty much any move. Also, iirc our fair is good for sending the hydrant flying. Either that or the first hit of fsmash, I can't remember if it was both of those or what. Two dtilts is also good.

 

[Deleted member]

As the OP, I'm invoking the exception to the double posting rule because announcements and stuff.

Anyway, we're no longer discussing Game & Watch or Ness. Discussion on Olimar and Pacman end this week, and we're starting discussion on Palutena and Peach.
As a reminder, we're currently NOT discussing custom moves. When we talk about Palutena, we're talking about 1111 Palutena, and only 1111 Palutena (the same goes with all of the other characters, of course).
As for the match-up ratios, I'll go with 55:45 our favor for Ness if that's alright with everyone since two people who would know a lot about that match-up say it's 55:45. I'll probably put Zan's and PSIBoy's posts in the guide spoiler for Ness, if that's also fine. As for G&W, while I forgot to mention it earlier, personally I feel it's around 50:50. Since the other two who gave ratios also said it's around there, I'll put the ratio at 50:50.

As for the match-ups we're currently discussing, the Peach's I've faced have probably just been bad, but I've found throwing a boomerang upwards to really mess with their aerial approaches when they've tried them. With Palutena, I've had quite a bit of experience against Palutena compared to other characters and imo this is one of our better match-ups. I'd go as far as to say it's around 60:40 or even 70:30 our favor depending on the stage. Personally I go for baiting the reflector then punishing with zair or a grab since our tether can reach through the reflector. Overall, zair is very good against Palutena with its range and speed. Because of zair being so good against Palutena and the match-up having more emphasis on baiting than other match-ups, along with Palutena having a reflector, and I really don't think camping is something that should be done very often in this match-up. Also, don't take Palutena to Duck Hunt. If you end up in the tree Palutena's usmash can actually reach you from the top of the tree, which can KO you at very low percents.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Palutena's dash attack and bair make her completely invincible for a short period of time as the attack comes out. Because of this, don't challenge Palutena in the air if she has her back to you, and for the love of Din, watch your landings otherwise you'll get hit by dash attack. Palutena's Jab is ridiculously good. The first hitbox is as big as the light sphere (which is like the entire area infront of her) and combos into Grabs etc. When you get Grabbed, make sure you DI away from Palutena. Read that again. If you DI away, you will get D-throwed to Fair'd. It's far better than getting D-throwed to Nair or U-air. And for that matter, respect the U-air. It has range for days, kills very early, and has a long lasting set of hitboxes. Try to Bomb it or something, but don't challenge it directly.
I really wish I could talk about God-mode Palutena (i.e. customs on). Oh the things I could tell you. Freaking Super Speed + Lightweight.

 

[SoundChow]

I don't like the Palutena matchup. First her reflector makes it difficult for us to pressure her with bombs and boomerangs. She also has better range than us with her quick jab and d-tilt, and has priority with her dash attack and bair. Tink's zair is great in this matchup, but I feel she'll be able to predict it and shield considering that her reflector makes Tink's projectiles unsafe. My experience with her comes from For Glory so my matchup experience isn't great, but I still feel like this matchup goes to Palutena.

 

[Jasudin]

As the OP, I'm invoking the exception to the double posting rule because announcements and stuff.

Anyway, we're no longer discussing Game & Watch or Ness. Discussion on Olimar and Pacman end this week, and we're starting discussion on Palutena and Peach.
As a reminder, we're currently NOT discussing custom moves. When we talk about Palutena, we're talking about 1111 Palutena, and only 1111 Palutena (the same goes with all of the other characters, of course).
As for the match-up ratios, I'll go with 55:45 our favor for Ness if that's alright with everyone since two people who would know a lot about that match-up say it's 55:45. I'll probably put Zan's and PSIBoy's posts in the guide spoiler for Ness, if that's also fine. As for G&W, while I forgot to mention it earlier, personally I feel it's around 50:50. Since the other two who gave ratios also said it's around there, I'll put the ratio at 50:50.

As for the match-ups we're currently discussing, the Peach's I've faced have probably just been bad, but I've found throwing a boomerang upwards to really mess with their aerial approaches when they've tried them. With Palutena, I've had quite a bit of experience against Palutena compared to other characters and imo this is one of our better match-ups. I'd go as far as to say it's around 60:40 or even 70:30 our favor depending on the stage. Personally I go for baiting the reflector then punishing with zair or a grab since our tether can reach through the reflector. Overall, zair is very good against Palutena with its range and speed. Because of zair being so good against Palutena and the match-up having more emphasis on baiting than other match-ups, along with Palutena having a reflector, and I really don't think camping is something that should be done very often in this match-up. Also, don't take Palutena to Duck Hunt. If you end up in the tree Palutena's usmash can actually reach you from the top of the tree, which can KO you at very low percents.

This. This. Zair is great for reflector punish because of its range and the fact that it will actually hit in spite of the reflector's wind box. Also, BFOs and ZACs if the person likes reflector. But if the Palutena doesn't use reflector? I guess pressure their shield with uncharged arrows from a good distance where the arrow starts to plummet just in case of reflector and to stop approach? Holding a bomb gives you psychological advantage as long as you don't throw it into reflector whose wind box and lingering existence sadly makes the move much safer.

Haven't faced any good Peaches, but (RAR) Zair hurts their float and approach in general. Watch out for the turnip. It's important in their approach, though maybe less so in this matchup since all of our projectiles and zair cancel it (bombs out prioritize it I believe). Take this with a grain of salt for obvious reasons.

 

[Wintropy]

Okay, default Palutena. In a nutshell:

- Ridonk running speed; airspeed is significantly slower
- Autoreticle can slow movement, but your shield should mitigate it
- Reflect makes projectile walls redundant
- Failing that, powershielding through projectiles is a possible option
- JAB FOR DAYS, her jab stuns and sets up for combo possibilities
- Jab -> d-throw leads into u-air combo, kills at high percents
- Approach with f-air or reverse b-air is useful, but your small hitbox makes it trickier to land
- DO NOT LEAVE YOURSELF OPEN - her smashes are slow, but immensely powerful

In my experience, Tink has a bit of a tough time in this matchup. Reflect pretty much nullifies any use for launching projectiles, and unless you're standing stock-still, she can just launch right back with Autoreticle. This'll pressure you into moving, and this is right where we want you: approaching our space means you'll have to rely on either your smashes (free shieldgrab for us) or your aerials (where we can space with f-air, kill with b-air, juggle / kill with u-air or maybe spike with d-air).

On the flipside, Palutena doesn't have great immediate options besides her jab, as her smashes are way too predictable and slow to be reliable. If you can read her jabs and grabs and spotdodge accordingly, you may be able to get a smash or tilt in. Palutena will try to lure you into her territory just so she can space you at her leisure (jab and f-air being her top spacing tools), softening you up for a KO when you get flustered and whiff a move. A popular tactic is to get the opponent to mid-high percents and then punish freefall landing or a poorly spaced smash with u-smash (it's best for us to land this on the ground, since the base is the strongest part of this move and the tip is the weakest). Your smashes are pretty strong, and they're still faster than ours. Palutena's a punishment character who likes to read you and strike back, so if you can read her just as well, you should be able to get through her spacing tactics and hit her with a smash.

In brief: projectiles are not advised (Reflect), standing still is not advised (jab), excessive shielding is not advised (grab), airgame is not advised (u-air, b-air); reading is advised (poor immediate options) and very well-timed smashes are advised (lightweight stature).

Overall, I think Palutena wins this matchup quite comfortably. Of course, I will happily take on any challengers who'd like to learn the matchup and prove to me otherwise~

30 : 70 ​

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I am yet to meet a reflector that has made me want to use less projectiles. You just have to spam differently i.e. less direct, bait out the reflector and then consistently punish it.

 

[TastyCarcass]

Pal main here, it's in Pal's favour. Her reflect is pretty spammable to the point where I would say don't even bother using the bow. If you're clever with the bombs and boomerang you can be clever and get her, but don't bother.

Don't challenge her dash attack, block it and punish.

She's got a fast run speed, but the majority of moves out of it are pretty unsafe. I think the best you can do is bait her into using her upsmash and then dair her.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Peach main here
I rarely run into TL players, but I will give what I know
Peach obviously has to approach to get in, but she can effectively do it in the air.
Now a TL may either use boomerang or bomb, most likely boom.
Now if you can predict it right, you can quickly stop float and run in for a punish or try to see what they do after.
Your projectile is key for this MU, because TL will mostly use his projectiles often, he is likely to get hit if you time your throwing on your turnips correctly.
He has many disjointed attacks, peach has long ranged, but not as much disjointed attacks.
I generally try to corner TL players because they can either roll behind me, shield, or try to use one of their projectiles sometimes
(It's been some time since I have last seen a TL player)
I did run into a very good one before who unlike most others, played at a very fast paced, use his projectiles perfectly, and knew how to space well and everything. (Keep this in mind I was Kirby at the time and I still managed to defeat him, btw I don't think the matchup for Kirby is that bad, I know I'm late, but still.)
TL is mostly fast all around, now what he doesn't really have all too much is KO power.
Man.......this is hard to keep going on about If you haven't faced TL players for some time....... I'll maybe edit lTer when I get more info.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Palutena, Peach, Pikachu, and Pit.

Also, if any TL is having that much trouble with Palutena's reflector, that's an issue on their part for using their projectiles badly. It definitely doesn't mean the match-up is bad for TL.

 

[Wintropy]

I find Tink is a bit tricky for Pit. Good projectile pressure makes it difficult to play defensively (which is Pit's forte), and getting too close means a smash could finish us. We can't rely too much on arrows either, since Tink has more projectile options than we do, and his shield negates them if he's standing still. Standing at a distance and aiming the arrows can help, but it's not advisable in the long run. Pit's Orbies aren't a reliable reflector either, unless the opponent is very easy to read, and they're very punishable anyway.

Tink's light, though, and most of his smashes are pretty unsafe. So we just have to navigate the wall of projectiles and bait Tink into hitting first. Watch out for Pit's side-b and pivot f-tilt, too, they're pretty much guaranteed kills on somebody as light as Tink at higher percents. I think gimping Tink is also pretty easy, his recovery isn't great and Pit can go very deep for the kill. Gotta watch out for that.

I don't think this is a fight either of us can rush into, both of us want to bait the other into blinking. Matches like this tend to last a while, and it really does come down to who has better understanding of how to shift from defensive to offensive as needs be.

Pretty much like most of the Pit's matchups, it's a pretty even matchup, I think. I've got nothing in mind to suggest it's heavily weighed either way. I guess maybe it could be in Tink's favour, since he forces us to approach and bait our own unsafe moves out, but not by much.

50 : 50 ​

 

[Nabbitnator]

A good thing to do against peach is just create a wall of projectiles at float height and use your tether. It forces her to approach on the ground. Just force her to approach.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

A good thing to do against peach is just create a wall of projectiles at float height and use your tether. It forces her to approach on the ground. Just force her to approach.

While spacing and applying pressure, I think Tink has the slight advantage

 

[Deleted member]

We're no longer discussing Palutena and Peach, and are now discussing Pikachu, Pit, R.O.B., and Robin.

 

[ILJ]

We're no longer discussing Palutena and Peach, and are now discussing Pikachu, Pit, R.O.B., and Robin.

I'm dying to discuss sheik...I'm convinced she's one of our hardest match ups..ahhh can't wait :/

 

[Dɛαd]

I'm dying to discuss sheik...I'm convinced she's one of our hardest match ups..ahhh can't wait :/

Sheik is not one of our hardest MU by far. I've already beaten Chudat's Sheik with Tink (I still lost the set tho). But after watching a lot of times my replays. I think I know a lot about the MU.

So I'll just wait until it is time to disuss about Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

From the Skype group on ROB:

Artemis: Thoughts on ROB?
Scamper: I try not to think of ROB...
Artemis: same lol
Artemis: personally I found taking him to Lylat worked really well since he doesn't seem to deal well with platform pressure and it was easy enough to bait him on to a platform
Artemis: I could also see BF doing well, especially since I've never known any ROBs to go there, but the fact that they strike/ban the stage is kind of a problem lol
Scamper: Since ROB suffers from the same thing Toon Link does, that being getting pressured, I go for a different approach at facing him and use my projectiles to get close to him and try my best not to let up the pressure. Bombs, tilts, nairs. Whatever I can do to make sure he doesn't get any stage control. If he does end up getting his spinning top thing out, I usually try to grab it and hold onto it for a while so that he can't gain any more momentum or stage control off of it. I basically try to not give him any room to breathe.
Artemis: I forgot about the top thing. Yeah that top thing is annoying and I think we should definitely try to hold on to it. It seems to hurt him a lot more to not be able to use his top than it hurts us to not be able to use our bombs
Scamper: And if you manage to throw it back at him at the right time, it gives him a taste of his own medicine..