Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[Deleted member]

Welcome to the Toon Link Match-Up Thread!

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Since this thread is for discussing Toon Link's match-ups, topics of discussion about match-ups will include:

• Toon Link's advantages and disadvantages
• General strategies
• Strategies against different playstyles a character might use
• Strategies on different stages
• Important tricks that can be used by the character or Toon Link
• Combo ability
• Match-up ratios*
• Differences between the Wii U and 3DS versions that affect the match-up
• General information to keep in mind, and anything else relevant to playing the match-ups

Basically, in this thread we'll discuss the match-ups for four characters at a time, with each character lasting two weeks. Since this thread started with discussing two characters instead of four, that means the older two character discussions will be replaced by two new character discussions every week.
This is a free discussion thread, so any match-ups can be talked about whenever, along with custom moves or no custom moves.

Character guides, match-up ratios, and an index with links to match-up threads for other character boards can be found in the post below.

*For those who don't know about match-up ratios, the first number represents Toon Link, and the second number represents the other character. The higher the first number, the better. For example, a 70:30 match-up means Toon Link has a very clear advantage, and a 30:70 match-up means he has a very clear disadvantage. 52:48 means he has a very slight advantage, 10:90 means the match-up is literally almost impossible, etc.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link Match-Up Guides and Ratios by the TLBR

Blue = Strongly in Toon Link's favor
Green = Toon Link's favor
Yellow = Even or about even
Orange = Disadvantage
Red = Strong disadvantage


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Character match-up thread index:

Spoiler

Bowser match-up thread
Bowser Jr. match-up thread
Captain Falcon match-up thread
Charizard match-up thread
Dark pit and Pit match-up directory
Diddy match-up thread
Donkey Kong match-up thread
Dr. Mario match-up thread
Duck Hunt match-up thread
Falco match-up thread
Fox match-up thread
Ganondorf match-up thread
Greninja match-up thread
Ike match-up thread
Jigglypuff match-up thread
King DeDeDe match-up thread
Kirby match-up thread
Link match-up thread directory
Little Mac match-up thread
Lucario match-up thread
Lucina match-up thread
Luigi match-up thread
Mario match-up thread
Marth match-up thread
Megaman match-up thread
Meta Knight match-up directory
Mr. Game & Watch match-up thread
Ness match-up thread
Olimar match-up thread
Pacman match-up thread
Palutena match-up thread
Peach match-up thread
Pikachu match-up thread
Pit match-up thread
R.O.B. match-up thread
Robin match-up thread
Rosalina match-up thread
Samus match-up thread
Sheik match-up thread
Shulk match-up thread/directory
Sonic match-up thread
Obviously this doesn't exist. You're not looking at it or anything.
Villager match-up thread
Wario match-up thread
Wii Fit Trainer match-up thread
Yoshi match-up index
Zelda match-up thread
Zero Suit Samus match-up thread

Match-up guides​

Bowser

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 60:40, Toon Link's favor

Author: Myself (Artemis)

Pros​

+ Bowser's moves are slow and easy to punish, especially his fsmash and aerials
+ Toon Link's uair beats all of Bowser's aerials and his ground pound when he's directly above you (just be careful about using it or he'll punish you)
+ Camping works very well here
+ He's easy to beat when he's in the air
+ Spacing with zair works very well here
+ Utilt strings can combo him to around 25%-30%
+ Your fair works great for gimping him.

Cons​

- Bowser can easily punish you if you aren't careful
- Bowser being heavy and hard to kill + his already being a heavy-hitter makes him scary at higher %s because of the rage mechanic
- His upb is quick and is annoying when done out of shield
- He has an easy time gimping us, especially with fair and bair
- A lot of his attacks can break your shield
- Bowser has an easy time KOing you, and his moves overall kill insanely early

General strategy​

Since Bowser obviously needs to be close to you to do any damage, camp Bowser as much as you can. Get him into the air whenever possible. Using projectiles at mid-range is good for helping with getting him into the air, since this can bait a shield, leaving him open to being grabbed. If he gets hit by any of your projectiles you can also grab him from there while he's recovering from the hit stun, then get him into the air.
Grabs are also your best option against power-shielding Bowsers. Once you've grabbed him use uthrow on him to easily get him into the air.
Keep in mind that your uair beats all of Bowser's aerials as well as his ground pound when he's directly above you. Bowser is too heavy for uair to be a good KO move here, so don't worry about staling it, and just focus on using it to rack up damage, punish mistakes, and defend against his aerials.
Some Bowsers might attempt to approach you with fire breath, so keep this in mind. Punish it with a bomb if the opponent does this.

Punishes​

Bowser thrives off of punishing opponents. However, almost all of Bowser's moves are very punishable, so this goes both ways in this match-up. Overall, the match-up very heavily revolves around punishing.
Carefully space with zair if you're forced to get close if grabbing is too risky. Avoid using laggy moves and don't be wreckless, or you will get punished. As mentioned before, Bowser's moves are very punishable, so keep this in mind and look for opportunities to punish a missed move. His upb on the ground is an exception, and is often used out of shield, so watch out for it.
Be very careful about using your shield. A lot of his moves, mainly his ground pound and fsmash, can easily break your shield, leaving you open to get KO'd by a fully-charged fsmash. Even when you aren't shielding to protect yourself against a move that can break your shield, shielding too much can be problematic since it leaves you open to being grabbed, which is especially bad here because of Bowser's good throws.

Off-stage​

Be very careful trying to recover when off-stage. A good Bowser will be willing to go far off-stage to gimp you. His fair and bair are his main gimping moves. Some Bowsers might also attempt to gimp you with dair, which has a crazy hitbox. Don't stay on the ledge too long when you get on it, since his dtilt can send you flying off-stage again. Rolling from the ledge can get you usmashed, so don't roll from it.
Your fair is great against Bowser when he's off-stage, so if Bowser tries to fair you and misses you can punish him with your fair. Toon Link's fair also beats Bowser's upb. Overall, your fair is great for gimping him.

Stages​

Fortunately, this shouldn't be a difficult match-up even on stages that are normally bad for Toon Link, and different stages will come with their own advantages here.

On large stages​

Large stages are great for camping Bowser, so take full advantage of that and camp him as much as possible.

On small stages​

Camping Bowser will be more difficult here, so use your projectiles to get him into a position where you can grab him then throw him into the air.

On stages with platforms​

Get him into the air and on a platform so you can shark the crap out of him. Just make sure you don't get sharked yourself, especially on platforms low enough where Bowser can reach them with his ground moves.

Miscellaneous​

Your Hylian shield can protect very well against Bowser's fire breath.

Bowser Jr.

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 50:50

Guide #1
Author: Jash​

Pros: Very easy to set up combos.
Has a hard time avoiding Toon Links walls of projectiles.
Does not have any secure option for spaced Zair.
Potentially easy to edge guard.

Most of the time the main approach that Bowser Jr players use is his side B which can only be canceled by jumping, therefore leaving him open the entire time he's on the side B animation. KEEP IN MIND (very important) Bowser Jr's side B is multi-hit boxed mainly when he pulls back and starts spinning, if or when you throw the bomb at the animation where he pulls back, the bomb can potentially go passed him without even hitting him. In this case you have 3 options...
1: Full hop and throw the bomb down.
2: Use another projectile or zair.
3: Slash his ****ing face in.
Getting the kill may be another issue due to his heaviness, although he doesn't have much offstage options to my knowledge so gimping him may be the cure to that Con. Racking up damage is the easy part of this matchup since he is heavy and can be stringed from about 0-60% or more if done correctly. A trick for the mecha koopas, these things can be annoying but I usually like to catch them with a short hop fair or nair, for some reason it works easiest.
Stages I would recommend is anything flat like FD, Bowser Jr has tricks on platform stages, avoid Delfino at all cost also Kongo Jungle if legal.

Guide #2
Author: Zan​

Stages:
Smashville
Final Destination
Town&City
Battlefield
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Lylat <----- HIS BEST STAGE!!!!!
Delfino
Castle Siege
Bowser Jr is a HEAVY WEIGHT when he is IN THE CLOWN KART. Keep this in mind.
When he Up B's, he is LIGHT WEIGHT because he is OUT OF THE CLOWN KART.
Just starting with this to make note of later.

So in general, BJR has one main approach with some mixups; his side b. He gets followups off of it and can cancel it with a jump. It has super armor as well.
I advise you not to challenge it but instead wait and punish it. There is a big distinction between these.
Don't try challenging it with a move when it's rushing at you. While you can hit it with certain moves to get past the super armor, you need good reaction time and its better to just punish it.
So how do we punish it?
Simple. Shield! When they side b's toward us, just shield and they have 4 options (though the 4th will never be used lol):
1. Keep going past shield
2. Jump before it hits our shield
**3. Hit our shield and jump with an aerial/etc in anticipation for a followup** this it the one we want and most of them do
4. Burn out and go sliding (very punishable)

Shielding beats all of these options as we can just react to either of them.
If they keep going past shield, we can bair out of shield.
If they jump before it hits our shield, you can reset the situation and retreat or try to boomerang in their arc
If they hit our shield and jump, we can do uair/bair/fair/nair/usmash/bomb throw up if we have one
If they burn out, well...we have years to punish and not gonna get into that cause its self explanatory lol

Now, they may know we're gonna shield, so they may try to fake us out. Thats where power shielding comes in!

You can try pivot grabbing or retreat JC Bomb throw vs the Side B, but shield is usually the best option.

One thing to be cautious of is dair. If they side b our shield, they may dair immediatley after to try to poke our shield or beat our punish. If you think they're going to dair, just shield it all because it has lag landing into the ground.

Side B is a very dangerous move. He can string 40% or more from it if we get hit, be very careful.

The mixup I mentioned earlier is Side B to empty jump to bait us out. BJR mainly tries to approach us but we can run away very well, just be careful dealing with Side B.

BJR loves to have a Mecha Koopa (down b) on stage alot; it walks across the stage and can be picked up as an item as well. It has 2 hitboxes when walking: one that hits you up on contact and another that explodes after it hits you up.
We can throw projectiles at it to make it explode, and a combination of either bomb+arrow/boomerang or just a bomb before it starts walking should make it explode. We can catch it too.
BJR also has an AT where if he catches it before it starts walking and throws it down, it'll bounce off the ground into the air.
BJR will usually either let it walk the whole stage or place it near the ledge and wait till it turns around to catch it. Naturally, the startup is punishable so a boomerang toward him should do the trick.
If its too close to use a projectile on, just shield it, but remember to shield it if it turns around too.
If its about to explode on the ground and someone picks it up, the timer resets. Keep that in mind cause BJR tends to do that alot.

His canonball is pretty much useless for him, so you wont be seeing much of that and it's easy to avoid even if you do. So I'm just gonna skip it.

Abandon ship (up b) is VERY RISKY WHEN RECOVERING FOR BJR. If we hit them when they aren't in the clown kart, they have to wait until it comes back to up b again. Its a vertical/linear recovery, so throwing a bomb down at them should suffice. Falling/timed nair is good too. Its also very easy to ledge trump.
Be careful as they have a strong hammer hitbox they can throw out when they are out of the Kart. It can be combod from side b too so be very careful.
BJR's sometimes like to up b when they have you on the ledge. If you run into the actual kart, it has a hitbox that leads into the explosion. Be careful when you are on the ledge because they are looking for you to do a regular getup.
This move can also be used to edge guard us, so be careful recovering. Since our recovery is also linear and vertical it can pose problems.

In general, the matchup is all about spacing. We need to keep them out because if they get momentum on us it can be very hard, but at the same time he has trouble getting in if we can keep him out.
Zair and retreating short hop nair are both very good for spacing. RAR bair is very good too, but use it sparingly because they will try to side b out of shield to catch our lag on bair.
Be careful of BJR's short hop fair because it auto cancels and its very good for spacing/getting in. It'll beat our projectiles for the most part.

BJR usually lands with nair as it has little lag, so watch out for that.

Full hop angled boomerang downward is very good in this matchup because it covers the space that BJR wants to occupy.

Bombs are, as usual, essential in this matchup. Platform keepaway is advised especially. BE VERY CAREFUL OF HIS UAIR WHEN ON A PLATFORM, IT IS SIMILAR TO METAKNIGHTS UAIR IN BRAWL AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO RELIVE THAT, DO YOU?? HE'LL GET 40% OR MORE FROM IT, DO NOT BY ANY MEANS ENGAGE WITH THAT UAIR. SHIELD IT, RUN AWAY FROM IT, THROW A BOMB AT IT, DONT CHALLENGE IT. CANT EMPHASIZE THIS ENOUGH

BJR has great tools to edgeguard us, so be careful when recovering. Try to save your jump as long as you can.

When on the edge, BJR will usually sit in shield waiting for our get up. He will try to usmash us out of shield and it will catch our roll and get up for the most part. Be very careful and analyze the situation because there isn't a specific thing I can tell you to do to get out of the situation. Your best bet is to just jump and get out of there.

Like I said, BJR is heavy when in the kart, so its going to take a bit more than it looks like to kill him; however we can utilt string him a lot so keep that in mind.

BJR gets juggled alot, so try to keep him in the air since he is a big target.

Be cautious of being hit by dair. It can be lag canceled when it hits (but not if it hits our shield) and he can followup a lot off of it.

BJR doesn't have any followups off of throws, but his bthrow and dthrow can kill. Be careful.

Again, BJR will usually land with nair if they whiff an aerial from a full hop but they will mix it up and land with bair if they think it can hit you. Bair is very strong so be careful of being hit by that.

We can punish a lot of his moves on our shield with up b.

Experience is from Tweek, the best ever

Captain Falcon

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55:45, Toon Link's favor

General
Author: Jash​

This match-up can be pretty tricky, but when you get it down you'll see where the advantage is.

Toon Links projectiles are the key components to dominating this match-up since Captain Falcon has none. Playing a spaced projectile game mixed with a mid-range aggressive game (spaced arials as well as zair) can you make you feel just about untouchable when done correctly.

Captain Falcon is very speedy, which is the tricky part. He can approach you very quickly and also power shield your projectiles in order to get the shield grab. Avoid being grabbed, since that is when his fury of combos start and his set up to his fair (which defeats Toon Link rather quickly). He is also pretty heavy, so defeating him is no easy task.

Tips: Avoid getting too close! You want to always be in a range where he cannot attack you and use your projectiles to take advantage and rack up as much damage as you can. Sending him to flat stages with very few to no platforms will maximize your advantage since he has no where to escape your wall of projectiles. 120% of damage is all your need to defeat him with your fsmash, 130% with up air, 145% with up smash. Gimping him is probably the easiest way to defeat him quickly, fair him off-stage and he'll have a hard time getting back.

As tricky as this match-up may be, remember to not be scared of his speed and focus your mindset on trapping him with your items and you'll have a sure advantage.

Stages
Author: Myself (Artemis)​

Best to worst stages on 3DS:
1. Final Destination / omegas
2. Prism Tower
3. Yoshi's Island
4. Battlefield
5. Arena Ferox

Final Destination, omegas, and Smashville are really good on the Wii U. Don't go to Battlefield.

Charizard

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55:45, Toon Link's favor

General
Author: Jash​

This matchup can be one-sided for Toon Link, but it is also very delicate as well.

Against Charizard you want to mainly focus on spacing your projectile game, as well as playing a mean mid-range game in order to have the upper hand on this match-up.

Charizard is very powerful, so you want to avoid being in close combat range for most of the battle, he has quick start up moves that have tons of knock back and his attacks do 11% + damage. The main Charizard moves you want to look out for are rock smash (down d), as it takes about 30%+ damage if hit in succession and has super armor, and his fly (up b), as it kills fairly quickly and also has super armor.

Tips: Charizard only has a close combat game, therefore you can abuse your projectiles as well as your zair to avoid taking any damage at all. You can set up combos on him pretty easily since he's fairly heavy and a huge target, though it should be mentioned that he's harder to combo than other heavies. Apply pressure while he's aerial, since your up air goes through most if not all of his attacks while he's in the air. Spam projectiles when you send him off-stage. Gimping Charizard is likely not going to happen due to his fly and flare blitz having super armor so take that opportunity to rack up as much damage as you can. Fsmash kills Charizard at about 110% and possibly less depending how close you are to the ledge and Up air kills at about 120%.

Use your mostly-better speed (except running speed, which is slower than Charizard's) and avoid being too close, and you'll have the advantage for sure.

Stages
Author: Myself (Artemis)​

Overall, large stages where you can easily run away and use projectiles to cover your escape are best, since you want to stay far away from him where he can easily do a lot of damage. Stages with fewer and smaller platforms are best here, since platforms give Charizard more room for taking advantage of his good aerials.

Dark Pit

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 45:55, Dark Pit's favor

General
Author: Jash​

This matchup is very tricky and requires a lot of patience in order to stand a chance against Dark Pit.
Dark Pit has two moves that reflect, electroshock arm (side b) and guardian orbitars (down b), one of which approaches you as it reflects and one the reflects items and deflects physical attacks. Avoid spamming too much as it may soon become a disadvantage once they start reflecting your items. You also want to avoid going off stage so you won't deal with long bair gimps which also has a sweet spot that kills pretty quickly. Dark Pit also has three jumps which make it kinda tricky to find out when he will land since there's no following him with projectiles.

Tips: Zair is your best friend in this matchup, it's the safest attack to use to avoid punishment as well as connect with a quick grab. Only use projectiles when he's not on the ground, if he trying to reflect your items aerially then you will see the opening so chances are he won't reflect at all. Bombs over-prioritize Palutena's Bow (B) so if you're fighting a campy Dark Pit then you know how to stop his arrows. Avoid stages with platforms, Dark Pit is very good at platform stages due to his rapid attacks it'll be very hard for you to land on stage. The best option vs his Guardian Orbitars (down b) is to grab, it is possible to hit Dark Pit out of it but the spot the very small so you may end up getting deflected and left open, just grab and it'll go right through. Dark Pit also dies pretty early which helps us a lot, fsmash will defeat him at 100% and Upsmash at 120%.

This matchup can be very sensitive but if you focus and use your projectiles wisely, it'll be possible to win this matchup.

Side note (by me, not Jash): Keep in mind, the electroshock arm has a lot of ending lag, so the move is very punishable because of this.

Diddy Kong

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 40:60, Diddy's favor

Author: Zan​

I asked Jtails and Southpaw for their thoughts on the matchup since they're probably the most experienced in the matchup/used TL at some point in Brawl or Smash 4. Thanks to them for their input!

Jtails:
- I think a main concern for TL in the match up is letting diddy get under him because that's what leads to free damage/kills.
So definitely being mindful of when you pull out your bombs and using your double jump is important. With bombs you can gimp diddy if he ever goes into up b offstage, and if he recovers high with side b you have the long lasting up air to cover that space.
- TL is at advantage if he can get a hold of diddy bananas because arrows have less cool down I believe in this game. So you can arrow him and if he blocks then goes for a grab you can get banana toss into whatever you want.
- Also I believe all of TLs projectiles go through peanuts which is strong.
- And Diddy's like to shield when they hold a banana so you can use the opportunity to grab them. They will either shield or side b usually.
- Probably just slighttttttly in diddy favor, but I'm also leaning towards even.
- 55:45 in diddy favor tho, because of TLs recovery. And diddy can capitalize on his landings. But with proper DI, TL actually gets out of any down throw set ups around 60%

Southpaw: "as for like...what toon link should do? he really has to run like hell since his close game just doesnt give the reward that diddy has. it really sucks that he lost zair as a landing tool for the most part. bombs are still very good as usual, since they cut through nannerz, and now you get to just chuck them at point blank and get a combo/kill from it. i wanna say almost all of diddy's landing aerials on block are grabbable. mayyybe a spaced fair can outrange grab. im sure diddy dtilt is safe as **** as usual on block so that leads to auto dash grab mixups. luckily toon link's roll is tougher to punish, although the distance is still **** (aka why i just throw out meaty dsmashes and you still fall into them) I think toon link can fsmash punish diddy for his fsmash/dsamsh/upsmash on block which would be an amazing punish. otherwise dsmash should always work since it's faster.

it's really how hard it is to land for toon link on against diddy now because his ground speed just lets him stick to you."

Now for my analysis.

First off, my ratio is 60/40, but I actually feel like (from experience) the matchup is 55/45 or even 50/50 on Town and City.

Lets talk stages.
When you're starting the match/set, you should try to start on Smashville or Final Destination. I'd avoid going to Battlefield, at least for the first game if possible.

Strikes​

If it comes down to strikes, heres what I usually do:
For 3 Stage Starter List (FD/SV/BF)
The strikes will always be 1 for each person. Strike Battlefield no matter what they strike and go to whatevers left, so that'll leave you with SV or FD which are both great, if not our best stages.

For 5 Stage Starter List (FD/SV/BF/Town/Lylat)
This is gonna be a little more tricky. The strikes will be 1-2-1. If you get to strike first, stick to the same plan and ban BF. They'll ban either a combination of SV and another stage; doesn't matter (although if they don't ban SV, I recommend starting there). If they've banned SV and ___ go to whichever you feel most comfortable with because all the remaining stages are great for us. Lylat is especially hard for Diddy to recover, but has a low ceiling. Platforms may be hard to maneuver around, but that's preference. I'd say try to aim for SV/Town/FD, so plan accordingly.

Counterpicks​

So usually in most rulesets people get 2 bans.

Our best stages to counterpick in this matchup would be: Smashville, Town and City, Final Destination.
Avoid: Castle Siege <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<EMPHASIS ON AVOID, Duck Hunt
Personal Preference: Kongo (if legal), Lylat, Delfino

The reason I suggest Town&City so much is because it has the flat stage of FD with the moving platforms; we can jump from platform to platform making Diddy try to chase us. I find it easier to kill Diddy off the sides on this stage and we don't die as early off the top. Again, there's ample room to keep distance from Diddy on this stage as well.

Some misc notes I found while playing this matchup a bunch:
- If Diddy tries to uthrow ->uair us, we can uair to beat out the uair. This does not work with Dthrow.
- If you're feeling risky, we can gimp Diddy's up B by dairing into him and trading with his up B. We can recover after this.
- RAR bair seems to be safe on shield. I believe we can approach/beat out his SH fair with this, but don't overdo it.
- We can punish their SH uair on shield with Up B OoS.
- If they don't have invincibility on the ledge, our best options are FTilt or Dair (you need to time it and space it right because of start-up time).

Now for the general match-up notes:

- Diddys will generally start out the match by pulling a banana sometime in the beginning. If there's a chance we can get control of the banana, try to get it. We get deadly momentum/follow ups from banana and I believe we have one of the best item control in the game.
- A lot of Diddys will also try to space us with SH fair. Sadly...we can't really punish it very well before he can fast fall and shield whatever we try to do.
- My best advice is to try to run away and play a flow of in and out style of play. What I mean by that is chipping away at him with projectiles, and then attacking him head on when he tried to approach. We need a good balance of this to succeed.
- Some Diddys will try to approach with side B. This is our chance for free damage. We can ftilt/utilt/run usmash in the direction hes going (not coming from)/pivot grab/bair/JC bomb throw to follow up against it.
- Spacing with Zair is very good in this match-up. Even on shield, unless they have a banana, they can't really punish it.
- Beware of being too obvious with your flow or pattern of item play. Diddys are looking to punish the startup/endlag of projectiles and our landings especially. Please be careful.
- When they have a banana in hand, they are generally safe if they use a Dash Shield approach especially if we are being too autopilot with our bombs. Please be wary of this as the only thing that will beat this approach is grab.
- Make sure to take advantage of gimping Diddy. We are really good at this as we can use all of our projectiles to gimp him. Throw boomerangs and bombs as needed to gimp him, and ledge trump him if he manages to make it back.
- I haven't tested, but Fair should be safe on their shield.
- Play slower if needed. No reason to rush things, and making mistakes leads to hard punishes by Diddy. That's not something we can afford in this matchup.

Videos​

Zan vs Zero
Tsunayoshi vs Leffen (Wifi tourney; he uses Toon Link at about 14:55)

Donkey Kong

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 60:40, Toon Link's favor

Pros and cons by myself (Artemis)

Pros​

+ Donkey Kong is slow and lacks projectiles of any kind, making him extremely easy to camp against
+ Toon Link's uair beats all of Donkey Kong's aerials from underneath him
+ Spacing with zair works very well here
+ Utilt can rack up a lot of damage against him
+ Your fair works great for gimping him

Cons​

- His bair is still really good
- He has two spikes, fair and dair
- Donkey Kong being heavy + his already being strong can make him scary to deal with at higher %s

Author: Jash​

Donkey Kong is strong and hard to kill; 2nd heaviest in the game, in fact. Donkey punch would probably kill Toon Link at about 80%. You also need to watch out for his super armor attacks which would be his up b and his neutral b attacks, which can take damage with no knock back.

However, those are probably his only advantages. Donkey Kong is a pretty large target, so approaching is very difficult even with his super armor tactics. Racking up damage is key in this match-up, which isn't too difficult since Toon Link can combo him for a pretty long time. Fsmash will kill him at about 115-125%. Donkey Kong has pretty sluggish moves compared to Toon Link, so countering him is also pretty easy, as well as running away when he gets too close. Donkey Kong only has a close combat, game so spacing with your mid-range projectile game will make you feel untouchable.

If you play it spaced and avoid damage while racking up damage, you'll give any Donkey Kong a hard time.

Duck Hunt

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55 - 45

Author Jash​

Pros:
Can be easy to juggle Duck Hunt due to the low range of his down air.
Can be easy to edge guard Duck Hunt due to the immobile state of his Up B.
Can be easy to shark Duck Hunt due to all of his aerials being punishable on shield.

Cons:
Can be sharked by Duck Hunt due to the range of his up air.
Duck Hunt's side-special has the ability to pierce through bombs.

This matchup is all about who gets stage control first, both characters having the same amount of projectiles that will clash against each other most of the time. Where Toon Link slightly reigns supreme in this matchup is his close combat, having faster aerials which can juggle Duck Hunt and apply a lot of pressure. Duck Hunt's main focus is to keep Toon Link away with his absurd projectile game as well as poke Toon Link with spaced Fair when he gets too close, which is why close combat range is where you'd wanna be for the majority in this matchup.

Tips: Aim for close combat range, Duck Hunt's Fair is about the same range as Zair which is why mid range isn't safe all the time and projectile range will ultimately lead to a clash battle, Toon Link has plenty of anti airs that out ranges both falling Nair and Dair which can pressure Duck Hunt when Duck Hunt is directly above Toon Link.
Duck Hunt's side special can be very tricky, piercing through Toon Link bombs while still having a hit box out to cause more damage and bouncing off the shield while also having the ability to blow up into multi hits. I recommend simply jumping over the side special whenever it comes out and avoid blocking it.
I would avoid platforms in this matchup; Duck Hunt's projectiles are set up perfectly to trap you and minimize your options on platform stages. Any flat stages would give you the advantage as well as Halberd due to its small size making it easier to chase and pressure Duck Hunt as well as allowing you to kill him quicker out the top of the stage.

Just to add to that:
Fox Is Openly Deceptive - When versing a character like DH it really helps to be able to understand the properties of their tools. A lot of them are really obvious, but I'll mention a few that I thought were less obvious. Take the Can for instance:
DH's Can acts like Snake's nades in that he can spawn it in 1 frame, and if your attack hits it everyone will blow up because you will be hitting the can into DH and getting caught in the explosion yourself. To give you an idea, If DH is below 12%, it is possible for him to escape an U-tilt to U-tilt.
If you hit the Can, it takes on a few interesting properties. Other than the fact that it will detect DH's hurtbox, DH will be unable to control the Can for a whole second. If you hit the Can again at any point before DH moves the Can, you will not refresh this one second.
Unlike DH, if you attempt to hit the Can a second time before DH shoots/moves it, the Can will not jump if hit by a projectile (this is a rule across the whole cast it would seem).
If you hit the Can while it is flashing it will explode, but if you hit the can just before it flashes such that your hit causes it to start flashing, the Can will be hit further than normal.
Subsequent hits, regardless of what hits it, will always tend to make the Can move faster but gain less vertical distance with the exception of that final hit (this obviously goes for the shots that DH uses to control it too).
ILJ - I think arrows help in this MU. Arrows break DHD's disc, turn the shooter around and flip the can so using arrows properly will delay DHD's camp game and give us the opportunity to do our thing.
We do have to be careful when chasing DHD in the air because he can just press b and use the can to guard him.
MVD - DHD has no real close up options so it makes sense for Toon to get in close quarters combat. This isn't to say that Toon can't try to out-camp either, but finding a balance between the two while avoiding that medium range where DHD's Fair can get you would be best. Also if you're playing with customs you should go with the piercing arrows for this matchup.
HyLeN - And in my experience with the MU, all I can add to this is TL kills duck hunt much easier than DH kills us; all duck hunt reliably has is up air and F-smash but no confirms into either one.

Fox

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 45-55, Fox's favor

Author: Jash
Pros:
Easy to combo
Easy to edge guard.

Cons:
Can reflect all of Toon Link's projectiles.
Can easily rush Toon Link down.
Can kill Toon Link early with usmash.

I consider this match-up a tough one to deal with especially if the Fox is proficient with reacting. Although it is easy to string a bunch of up tilts together against Fox, it can be difficult setting him up into it due to his quick running speed (4th fastest in the game) and his lagless aerials that come out almost instantly. Your best bet is to get him off-stage and edge guard him the best you can or get him off-stage to rack up damage.

Tips: DON'T SPAM PROJECTILES!
Utilt and ftilt are great anti-air attacks and should be used mainly to punish Fox's landing attacks or landing in general.
If timed correctly, ftilt can out prioritize Fox's side b which is a great thing to master if you want to make gimping him off-stage a little easier.
Avoid flat stages against Fox, he can easily continue to rush you down if there is no platforms to stop him. Smashville and Town and City are my suggestions if you want to have an easier time with this match-up.
Avoid utilting Fox at 0%, he can punish you before you are able to move again. Utilt starts to string at 10%.
Be careful zairing Fox at low %, since he is considered a fast faller he has less hit stun than most of the cast.

Video
Zan vs Larry

Greninja

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 50/50

Author: Jash​

Pros:
Can projectile pressure Greninja.
Can wall Greninja due to the range and laglessness of Zair.
Can easily combo Greninja due to Greninja's fast falling weight class.

Cons:
Can rush Toon Link down due to Greninja's swift ground mobility.
Can shark Toon Link due to multi hit priority on Greninja up air.
Can juggle Toon Link due to huge priorities on Greninja Up Smash.

This matchup can be very difficult for both characters if played well on both sides. For Greninja it's all about getting in Toon Link's space. Greninja can put out massive pressure due to having:
- A quick dash for easy rush down possibilities.
- Attacks that string together.
- Quick set ups to bait aerial options.

For Toon Link it's about understanding the key objectives in order to play the matchup effectively.
- Greninja is considered a fast fall character, which means that he can recover quickly from bombs/boomerangs/Zair at low percentages, however that also means he can be caught in a lot of strings at low percentages.
- Greninja has great ground speed which can make it difficult to use projectiles. I would be careful about using projectiles while he is in neutral position.
- Greninja has some aerial landing lag (excluding his neutral air which has the lowest landing lag and the shortest range) making it difficult for Greninja to land at times.

Keeping those facts in mind, Greninja also lacks a mid range game which makes Zair a great tool for this matchup as a keep away tactic as well as a combo starter on certain percentages. Overall it comes down to who can regain stage control the longest which will ultimately determine the winner.

Tips: Avoid close combat; this range is where Greninja fights best. Stick to a mid range tactic where you are poking with fully spaced Zair while Greninja is in neutral position. The ultimate goal is to be at a range where you can abuse your projectiles to rack up damage, although a skilled Greninja will not make it easy, so mid range is a "just in case" tactic if he gets too close with his approach.
Sharking Greninja can be a guessing game since Greninja has a great second jump as well as a great fast fall, being able to air dodge past our Up air into a possible punish. I suggest baiting Greninja with projectiles (Boomerang recommended since it cannot be caught) as this will give Greninja no choice but to react in some way which can leave him open to attacks.
Dealing with Greninja's sharking can be difficult due to the multi hit priority going through bombs without damage calculations making it difficult for Toon Link to land safely. I would avoid this situation at all cost since Toon Link has little to no options against Greninja's air pressure besides the punishable Dair.
I would avoid platforms (Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Delfino Plaza) as Greninja does well with platform pressure that can trap Toon Link into an endless juggle that can lead to Greninja's up smash which can go through platforms. Stick to any stages that have a lot space (Final Destination, Smashville, Town & City, Duck Hunt) as this can allow Toon Link to maintain stage control easier and rack up damage with his projectiles.

Just to add to that:
- Zan:
Due to his weight and fast fall speed, the best followup to do at low percents from a bomb is to just usmash; doing an aerial at low percent is too slow usually.
You need to keep in mind that he's a very fast and very mobile character but with slow/average speed moves.
Greninja covers our ledge options EXTREMELY well. Usmash covers jump and shurikens cover the rest.
Uncharged shuriken goes through bomb and collides with arrows/boomerang, charged goes through all. So angled boomerang over shurikens, sh arrow, and bombs over shurikens are the way to go; however be sure not to get baited into jumping/playing an obvious aerial game because that's where they excel.
- Fox Is Openly Deceptive:
Just note that Greninja can use shadow-sneak while in hitstun. It can be used to escape combos and strings e.g. U-tilts, so keep an eye on it while comboing and shield/punish it as hard as you can to deter them from choosing this option.

Ike

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 60 - 40 Toon Link advantage

Author Jash​

Pros:
Can easily camp Ike due to Ike's lack of projectiles and overall speed.
Can easily wall Ike due to Ike's slow mid range game.
Can easily edge guard Ike due to Ike's slow Up B recovery.
Can easily punish Ike due to Ike's aerial landing lag.

Cons:
Can out prioritize Toon Link projectiles and aerials with Ike's huge aerials and Smash attacks.
Can easily kill Toon Link at low percentages.

This is a clear Toon Link advantage matchup but that does not mean Toon Link shouldn't play carefully. Ike has lots of range in his attacks that may slice through projectiles if timed correctly with lots of power to back it up. Ike is however very sluggish compared to Toon Link which is a big deal since Toon Link can punish very quickly, leaving every aerial Ike throws out vulnerable to a Toon Link punish. Projectile range is where Toon Link wants to be in this matchup since well...Ike has no projectiles.

Tips: Avoid close combat, Ike can pressure really well using a spaced Nair (which has the lowest aerial landing lag) while walling Toon Link out with Ike's huge aerials transferring into either a jab reset, bair retreat or a dtilt reset which are his quickest attacks. Projectile range is ideally where Toon Link wants to be since this allows Toon Link to avoid Ike's close combat pressure while bomb toss punishes everything Ike throws out.
Mid range is also an effective way to play this matchup but certainly not the safest seeing as Ike has a lot of range himself being able to trade hits with Zair using ftilt. However instead of trying to trade hits with Ike's mid range, it'll be easier to just bait it since it not only has slow start up but lasts long for an easy punish.
Edge guarding Ike is rather easy; the second part of his Ike's Up B where he's spinning before grabbing the ledge makes him very vulnerable to bombs offstage allowing for gimps, edge guards, and ultimately early stocks.
I would avoid small stages with platforms (Halberd, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise) as they can allow Ike to abuse his range for frame trapping which can lead to quick kills. I would suggest flat stages with a lot of space (Final Destination, Smashville, Duck Hunt, Town & City) as these stages will help you avoid being caught in close combat, allowing for easier camp, space to play some safe mid range, and space to avoid incoming attacks.

Kirby

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 65:35, Toon Link's favor

Author: Zan
The main thing in the Kirby matchup:
Angled boomerang upward to cover his jump, bombs in his general space. Kirby can't deal with projectile pressure. I don't know why someone said Zair is useless in this matchup cause it really isnt, in fact zair isnt useless in any matchup. There are times where you don't use it in that moment, but its a good spacing move and move to followup on.

Some important notes:
- Do not try to combat kirby in the air
- You want to have extreme stage control vs kirby
- Don't try to combat kirby off stage
- Be cautious up close, however we can succeed in the upclose battle
- Play extremely patient
- From experience, this matchup is 65:35 or even 70:30 in our favor.
- Throwing bombs up to cover kirby's air space is great.
- Throwing boomerang upward is extremely important because Kirby will have to play very evasive.
- Be careful of utilts, they can lead to a lot for him.
- Kirbys will generally try to jump a few times and land with bair to get in, otherwise his approach options are pretty bad. This is why covering his aerial space is so important.

Mario

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 50:50

Author: Jash
Pros:
Out spaces Mario physical moves.
Bomb out priorities up to 3 fire balls.
Easily gimped if Toon Link steals Mario's second jump offstage.

Cons:
Mario capes/reflects every projectile Toon Link has.
Mario has a mean pressure when he gets too close.
Mario's dair has the ability to go through bombs after you toss them.

This matchup is very tricky but can be difficult to handle on both sides. Mario's main "go to" strategy in this matchup is to cape every projectile that is thrown at him which is usually the down fall for most Toon Link users, but what if Toon Link doesn't focus on throwing projectiles and decides to space his physical attacks? Will it make a difference? Absolutely. Toon Link out ranges Mario when it comes to close combat, Toon Link having the ability to play close combat in mid range thanks to zair.

Tips: Don't Spam Projectiles!
Focus mainly on poking Mario with zair as zair can combo to just about anything, full hop Nair works as well for good poking and avoiding punishment.
Bombs should only be used to either bait the cape (since you do have a few frames to punish it If he either misses or hits your shield) or to stop fire balls from being such a pain.
KEEP IN MIND that Mario's dair can allow toon links thrown bombs to go through him with out any damage taken, when he dairs I recommend throwing the bomb down after a short or full hop, assuming he hits your shield that is.
Gimping Mario can be a real problem sometimes but it's totally worth the attempt, I would never go off stage to gimp Mario with something physical since that can lead you to getting potentially stage spiked by Mario's up b, throw projectiles offstage to get him into a uncomfortable position, if you get the frame perfect ledge trap ftilt when he uses up b, that is a free gimp and a free stock.

Ness

Spoiler

Author: Zan
50/50 but in my personal opinion 55/45
Stages:
FD/SV/T&C
Battlefield is kinda iffy.
Avoid Halberd, Delfino, Castle Siege.
Lylat can mess up his recovery and stage can mess him up as well, but low boundaries can benefit him.
Duck Hunt is questionable

General things to know about Ness:
- They're generally going to use a lot of PK Fire (mainly as a punish tool and at the beginning of the match), so be prepared for that. PK Fire leads to grab/dash attack/fsmash (at lower percent).
- Their DThrow combos to Fair strings, or a UAir.
- PK Thunder juggles extremely well and has a lot of priority.
- Their general approaches are going to consist of Dash Shield (looking for a grab or OOS Aerial)/SH Fair/SH Nair. Dash attack will be used for quick punish scenarios
- Bthrow is their main kill option. Other kill options include UAir/Dsmash/BAir. They can kill with PKT2 so be careful challenging it. More risky and unsafe ways for them to kill are Dair off stage/Fair strings to the edge of the stage (which is why i recommend avoiding walks-offs/low boundary stages)/Fsmash (situational and laggy).
- PSI Magnet absorbs bombs.
- Ness's usually land into the ground with UAir or NAir.
- Ness has a very fast dash grab. Don't take any risks when close.

Now for specific things in the matchup:
- Ness can't really approach us and PK fire loses to all projectiles (meaning it will hit and end up going to the actual fire part)
- We can stay out of his PK fire range, which is mid range combat. If he gets in this range especially at low percent try to get him out or reset the position. Smashville is especially useful because of the platform to retreat to.
- Try not to be above Ness if he's on the ground. Uair is very good and has a lot of priority, and it kills/comes out really fast. You can throw a bomb at it if you see it but it beats out boomerang.
- They will try to PK thunder us off stage. Throw a bomb or any projectiles at it because those cancel PKT out.
- When he's recovering, we don't have to go off stage to challenge his recovery. Throw a projectile at him (bomb preferred) becaause even if the PKT goes through it, Ness will hit the bomb and shorten his distance making him potentially miss the stage.
- Zair is tricky in this matchup because if he shields it you are in range of PK Fire so definitely be cautious.
- Be wary of throwing bombs alone towards him 100% of the time, since PSI magnet can absorb bombs and heal him (DOUBLES TEAM ANYONE!?). If you see the PSI magnet or think its coming, throw a boomerang/arrow first and then throw a bomb. Another option is to run towards him, RAR->SH->bomb fakeout fast fall nair (meaning throw the bomb backward then catch with nair). First hit of nair will come out and it doesnt have much lag, he is in PSI magnet so will not punish it is for the most part safe. If you dont get the hit, just retreat. Another option is to run at him and Up B with a bomb if they are in PSI magnet. And finally, you can give him the bomb percent and then grab or followup if you want. You will be healing him and hurtin him at the same time, depends on the situation.
- By any means avoid being juggled. Ness will get a lot of percent from this.
- After Dthrow, I usually DI up because I'd rather take a UAir than 98928259 fairs. This percent really matters.
- Be extra cautious of a Ness in rage. Bthrow is very deadly.
- Angled boomerang downward from the air is very good in this matchup. It covers a lot of space and we can cover the remaining space with bombs and arrows.
- Don't overcommit to anything because Ness has hard punishes. If you see that their main approach is dash shield, then beat it with a grab. You will need to do some baiting however.
- While ness does do a solid job juggling, he also has trouble being juggled. Ness doesn't have a very good move going downward, so take advantage with Uair's long lasting hitbox.
- Be careful when on the ledge. Ness's like to go for DSmash (the first hit) cause it sends us at an angle we can't really recover from. It doesn't have much lag either so don't challenge it.
- Ness is midweight, will die from a back throw at around 120-130.
- Play extremely careful and slow in this matchup. One mistake could cost you A LOT. Don't take unnecessary risks. You should be good otherwise.
- SH Nair (retreat when it comes out) is safe on Ness's shield.
- Be careful of Dash Attack. I can't really explain but its wierd and good. Punishable on shield tho.
- Since Ness has a slow recovery, and if you aren't confident in gimping him, just wait till he grabs the ledge and trump him to Bair. Should keep him in a pretty bad spot for a while.

Olimar

Spoiler

Author: Zan
50/50 (although if you're not used to Olimar it may look like a terrible matchup. I consider it one of our HARDEST matchups AND one of our most EVEN matchups.)

Stages from best to worst:
FD, SV, T&C
BF
Delfino, Halberd, Duck Hunt
Castle Siege (AVOID BY ANY MEANS), Lylat
- I'm going to say this right now. We can't camp olimar for the most part. We have to use a sort of "in and out" playstyle where we weave into close combat and then keep him away when we are winning (preferably with a stock lead).
- His pikmin are in set order and it is beneficial to know this order because it will dictate how we play/where to be in certain situations. The order is Red, Yellow, Blue, White, and Purple. He can only pluck 3 at a time. Because of this, Olimars can plan out their lineup and have the best pikmin to deal with our keepaway.
- You need to play VERY evasive and at the same time be able to throw projectiles at him; that is the main reason I say it is hard.
- When pikmin are attached to us, we cannot throw bombs at Olimar. It will just hit the pikmin on us. However, it will not hurt us. The best way to get pikmin off in my experience is Nair, Bair, and Ftilt. If you do happen to have a bomb in hand while pikmin are on you, especially Red pikmin since they aren't hurt by bombs, you can Ftilt with the bomb in hand by holding down and pressing Cstick forward.
- Purples are very dangerous to us. They go throw our projectiles and disrupt our movement. Be very cautious around purples.
- Olimars will generally want to wall us out with pikmin throw, but they wont be throwing all their pikmin. Again, make sure you know which pikmin they have on their lineup. If they have a red pikmin you're going to want to be careful where you pull a bomb. If they have a purple pikmin you're going to want to be careful where you land/approach because it can kill and disrupt our keepaway if thrown. If they have white pikmin try avoiding or killing them if possible because those are the main percent rackers. Blue pikmin at high percents are ESPECIALLY danagerous because those are his kill throw pikmin. If he grabs you with a blue pikmin at high percent, up throw will do the job for them. Yellow pikmin aerials are very good, so take note of this as well.
- At low percent, Olimar can do a lot of percent with his grab combos. Be careful of being grabbed because he does have great followups at mid percent as well.
- Unlike brawl, his smashes are very punishable on shield, so don't be afraid of them. On the contrary, don't be too obvious in the air where they can catch us with an Up Smash.
- Be very careful of Olimar's jab. He can do jab 1+2 to grab and then nasty followups off that grab, leading to almost 40% or more.
- Olimar can attack out of his Up B, but that puts him in special fall after the attack. Other than that, we can make it hard for him to recover by putting out a lot of projectiles. Olimars will try to recover under the stage if there's too much pressure to recover on one side, so be on the lookout for that. If he's too low, he has to throw away pikmin to go higher, so be ready to deal with olimar without pikmin. Make it hell for him to pluck out his lineup.
- Overall, we can juggle olimar pretty well and kill him pretty easily because he is light. Bthrow will kill around 115-120.
- Zair is very good in spacing as usual, but don't be too obvious. If you do it too much, Olimar's will catch on and wait for the jump to run up and Usmash you.
- SH Nair is very good at spacing in this matchup. Not as ranged as Brawl nair but still safe on shield (first hit).
- We generally want to do aerial angled boomerang downward to cover Olimar's space. Full hop is preferred.
- RAR Bair seems very good in this matchup but I have to test more on this.
- Up B is amazing for punishes/reads at lower percent because not only does it put decent amount of damage/knockback on Olimar, but it puts a lot of damage on his pikmin and potentially kill them depending on which pikmin it is.
- I find the most dangerous lineups to be 1 Blue and 2 Purples,and Blue Red Purple.
- Ftilt is amazing in this matchup. It kills all pikmin on you/around you, is pretty quick, and send olimar at a bad recovery angle if at high percent.

Video
Zan vs Rich Brown (starts at about 6:10)

Palutena

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55 - 45 Toon Link advantage (non-customs)

Author: Jash​

Pros:
Can easily wall Palutena due to her slow mid range game.
Can easily juggle Palutena due to her short ranged aerial options.
Can easily edgeguard Palutena due to her slow teleport reappear animation.

Cons:
Can reflect all of Toon Link's projectiles.
Can be out prioritized due to great priorities on Palutena's Up Smash.

This matchup can be a little tricky especially for those that are use to playing a mean projectile game, Palutena has a great time dealing with projectiles due to her reflect option, her dash attack, and bair shield priorities, not to mention her very powerful Up Smash which can pierce through all projectiles and still have a hit box to hit you with. The trick lies mid range where you would notice that Palutena's long lasting attacks would have a hard time punishing any reaction after a fully spaced Zair, making Palutena weak to pressure and weaker to spaced pressure.

Tips: DO NOT SPAM PROJECTILES! Stick to a mid range tactic where you can wall Palutena's long lasting attacks with Zair, Palutena has a decent amount of range on her fair which may be her option of choice to approach aerially due to it's low landing lag stun, it can be easily anti air'd with Toon Link utilt, ftilt and Up Smash so I recommend baiting that approach so it doesn't hassle. Keep her in the air for as long as possible as she can die rather early.
Watch out for her Up Smash; it can lead to quick kills as it can eat all projectiles it collides with. Avoid being in the air while Palutena is grounded.
Edge guarding Palutena is probably the reason why Toon Link wins this matchup overall, it seems that Palutena's reappear animation has a few openings before she grabs the ledge, if you literally throw the bomb at the ledge while she teleports, it'll hit her before she has a chance to grab the ledge which can ultimately set her up into a fair offstage which can kill Palutena as early as 75%.
Palutena's Up air can be troublesome due to it mainly being a multi hit move which can cause the bomb to go through it without damage calculations, making it a tough move to get around if you're in the air. There's actually an easy solution for it; it seems you can footstool Palutena's Up air while the hit boxes are active, though the timing is a tad tight, it beats trying to guess with a dair and getting ultimately punished, unless you're a great guesser then by all means dair goes right through Palutena's Up air.
I would avoid any stages with moving platforms (Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise) your worse enemy in this matchup is Palutena's Up Smash and moving platforms can easily set you up into it which can cause early stocks to be taken, stick to any stage that can allow you to cause pressure without punishment (Duck Hunt, Halberd, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza) I highly recommend both Halberd and Delfino Plaza as those are the stages that you will find yourself getting quick stocks off Palutena due to her fairly light weight class, the low ceilings and the situational easy kills off the sides, just be wary of Palutena's Up Smash as that can also turn your counter pick into her own. Flat stages are just about evenly good on both sides.

Just to add to that:
- Yackabean:
Palutena severely struggle to kill from what I know in non-customs. If you DI her Down Throw correctly every time she can only really do Fair for her follow up which is only 7%. Her up-air is meaty though so you want to avoid getting hit by that at all costs.
I haven't had a problem in particular when playing the projectile game against Palutena mostly because our bombs can easily arc over the reflect barrier. Boomerang is also heavily useful when used from a full hop and angled down. I couldn't recommend using arrows in this match up as much though.
- Fox Is Openly Deceptive:
Palutena is completely invincible during the Dash attack and Bair hitbox frames, meaning that if they time it they will always beat every other hitbox.
Palutena is vulnerable when she grabs the ledge after teleporting for like 1 frame except when she teleports from anywhere above the horizontal line of the stage, in which case she is completely safe. (This is a universal rule, so the same applies to e.g. Sheik Up-b, Fox/Falco side-b and anything else that is invulnerable while recovering.)
Her Jab1 combos into her Grab, and her Jab1's hitbox is deceptively huge. It's the entire sphere of light infront of her so it's also an anti-air. It's a little slow on start-up though compared to other Jabs I believe.
Customs Palutena is kind of dumb. I don't think it's in our favour. It's like versing an aerial Super Sonic crossed with a Fox that can kill with a Grab at around 60% or higher if she has any light-weight left. There is no stopping her from recovering, even to the other side of the stage if she so wishes, while dragging you with her in Nair...
- HyLeN:
Non custom is easily our favor. With customs however it becomes extremely difficult, with superspeed it becomes very hard to zone her out because she has an amazing approach option. You never want halberd or delfino vs her. Also because of her lightweight cancel glitch on platforms, the more platforms a stage has the better for her. Grab becomes very risky. If you miss the grab and she has light weight on you're dead at 70%. In this mu be very smart to when you place your attacks or pull bombs because she can jab->grab you if you make a poor choice. Stages that are good vs her, smashville, final destination, townandcity. Any other stage she basically has the big advantage.

Pac-Man

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55 - 45 Toon Link advantage

Author: Jash​

Pros:
Can easily wall Pac Man due to Pac Mans poor mid range game.
Can easily shark Pac Man due to Toon Link up air priorities against Pac Man hydrant.
Can punish all of Pac Mans aerial landing attacks.

Cons:
Pac Man key can pierce all of Toon Links projectiles.
Can easily punish Toon Link in close combat range due to quick out of shield aerials.

This matchup can be a little strange the first time you play it due to the many traps Pac Man can set up, using his options of projectiles to set you up into his very strong smash attacks. However Pac Man lacks any mid range game which means Zair is a real problem for him, being able to pierce through the cherry, the orange and the apple and still have a hit box out to attack Pac Man if at the correct distance. If you use projectile range and mid range on a 50/50 basis, you'll see the advantage that Toon Link has here.

Tips: Avoid close combat in this matchup, Pac Man has great out of shield options such as Nair, Fair and Up air that can easily punish you if you are too close. In projectile range, arrow is the key projectile you are gonna wanna use, it interrupts his neutral B which is probably his only option in battling Toon Link at this range. In mid range, Zair, Nair and Fair has to be used as a poke to avoid getting hit by any out of shield options. In the event that Pac Man does shield the mid range attack you should immediately change to projectile range to avoid as much damage as possible.
Sharking Pac Man is very important. Toon Link's Up air beats out Pac Man's hydrant; it'll go completely through Toon Link without damage calculations, leaving the up air hit box still exposed which can also still attack Pac Man and usually punish him.
Edge guarding Pac Man is tricky since he has two options to recover. The trickiest one will be his side b since it has super armor, making it difficult to set him up with bomb kill set ups unlike his Up B. The only option that can be done to avoid side b recover is the fsmash ledge trapping which is very tight timing but works if done correctly.
I would avoid stages with moving platforms (Smashville, Town and City) as they can lead to traps that can potentially lead to powerful Pac Man set ups that can kill early. Stick to stages that can cause a lot of pressure damage (Halberd, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza) I recommend both Halberd and Delfino Plaza for this matchup as Halberd is very small which can lead to a lot of pressure as well as sharking here can lead to quick kills off the top. Delfino Plaza is one I recommend the most for the fact that some forms of this stage have no ledges which is a big problem for Pac Man, need I also mention the water spike kills and sharking which can also lead to quick kills off the top.

Just to add to that:
- Fox Is Openly Deceptive:
You don't have to worry about being just to the side of the hydrant, you can be directly under it. So long as your U-air hitbox is out, it will clash with the hitbox at the bottom of the hydrant which will render the hydrant completely harmless. The hydrant will then continue going downwards and your character model will simply be moved out of the way to the side, and if you have momentum going up still, e.g. from a DJ, this will be unaffected and your U-air can still hit Pac-Man. So essentially, you want to get your U-air hitbox out early with momentum going upwards.
It should also be noted that the general rule is that the hydrant will be beaten if the hurtbox accumulates 13% or more. Toon's Fair does 13% when fresh so it will beat it in one hit, and you should note that hitting the hydrant will not stale your moves, so e.g. Fair will continue to beat the hydrant in one hit until you hit Pac-man with it, at which point it will go into the stale move cue.

Peach

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55-45, Toon Link's favor

Author: Jash
Pros:
Out spaces all of Peach's attacks.
Zair pierces through turnips.
Peach can be walled by projectiles and zair.
Peach dies at low percentages.

Cons:
Peach can pressure hard at close combat.
Bob-ombs.
Peach has multi hit moves that may go through bombs without taking damage.

This match-up can be pretty one sided on Toon Link's favor, but that can change at any time if the Toon Link is not careful. You definitely don't want Peach to be anywhere you in neutral position, it's so bad that even shield isn't a good idea in this match-up. Peach can dair and side b your shield without having any openings for punish afterwards, so avoid that situation at all cost. Toon Link is rather quick on his feet, so if you focus on spacing rather than shielding, you will have a easier time dealing with this match-up.

Tips: Focus on staying mid range or projectile range, avoid close combat and shielding too much. As an alternative, try running away from incoming attacks since most of her attacks lag on landing except nair which has the least distance.

Zair is probably the best thing to use in this match-up, it pretty much destroys her float ability out spacing every option she can do while she is in that animation. It also pierces her only projectile, turnips, meaning a zair would make a turnip disappear on contact and still have a zair hit box out that may also hit Peach if at the correct distance.

I would avoid both Battlefield and Lylat Cruise, Peach increases on pressure with platforms, anything flat will help you in this match-up.

Note by Fox Is Openly Deceptive:
One interesting thing I know about this match-up is a little quirk to do with bob-ombs. Basically, they are very different to our bombs in that they can be hit and detonated even when the holder is simply standing there holding it. If you throw a rang or a bomb at Peach while she's holding a bob-omb, she's not going to have a good time. If the Peach player knows this, they'll be wanting to get rid of the bob-omb fairly quickly and they'll get super careful about shielding all your spam. Peach pulling bob-ombs is in our favour.

R.O.B.

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 50:50

Author: Jash​

Pros:
Can easily juggle R.O.B due to R.O.B's aerials being punishable on shield.
Can easily wall R.O.B due to Zair out spacing all of R.O.B's attacks.
Can be easy to edge guard R.O.B due to his size and his lack of options against projectiles offstage.

Cons:
R.O.B's neutral B special can pierce through all Toon Links projectiles after a certain amount of charge.
R.O.B's side B special can reflect incoming projectiles as well as continue with a flurry of hits.
R.O.B's Up air is a pretty big multi hit move which may make it difficult to land.

This matchup has clear advantages on both sides from R.O.B having to deal with the quickness in both Toon Links projectile and aggressive CQC game and Toon Link having to deal with R.O.B's huge hit boxes as well as R.O.B's own projectiles which can collide and even pierce through Toon Links projectiles. In a matchup like this, it all comes down to who can regain stage control the longest which will ultimately determine the winner.

Tips: Maintain a very spaced mid-range game, projectile range isn't always safe due to R.O.B's neutral B special piercing through Toon Links projectiles, R.O.B's side B special reflecting Toon Links projectiles and R.O.B's down B special (Gyro) colliding with Toon Links projectiles. Close combat range also isn't safe due to R.O.B's great grab range. Toon Links spaced Zair is unpunishable as well as full hop spaced Nair, if you wanna throw projectiles make sure they AT LEAST hit R.O.B's shield so you can approach with your mid range game and pressure him as much as possible.
Every aerial R.O.B has is punishable on landing which gives Toon Link the shark advantage to power shield every thing R.O.B lands with into an attack, however Toon Link may want to avoid double jumping in neutral position due to R.O.B's huge multi hit up air going through bombs as he can effectively trap Toon Link in the air; so stay grounded for as long as possible.
I would avoid platforms (Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Halberd) in this matchup. R.O.B is a big robot with bigger hit boxes and platforms make it much easier for him to pressure with them. Stick with any stage that's flat for the majority of the match (Final Destination, Smashville, Town & City) and you'll have enough space to rack up some good damage.

Just to add to that:
Artemis - ROB's Nair has a smaller hitbox than it looks like it does, so if you know ROB is going to Nair close to the ground you can U-smash under him.
Air dodging is the best way out of ROB's 'hoo hah'. Obviously though you don't want to get too predictable with this or ROB will just wait for the air dodge then punish it. Other options are obviously double jumping or Dairing.
Zair>grab is amazing on ROB.
Yackabean - Being able to learn to IZAC consistently and using it against R.O.B on his Gyro's is extremely helpful since it means you can stall out their only projectile option for longer whilst having the ability to use rangs arrows and ariels. Personally I love stealing R.O.B's Gyro in this match up. It really limits his zoning game which can give us trouble.
TSS - With customs on R.O.B. is much harder to edge guard since he has a ton of horizontal momentum and can easily avoid projectiles and land on the other side of the stage.
ROB's laser will always penetrate through every projectiles no matter the charge (assuming that he is using default laser and actually has a laser charged which only takes 3 seconds between shots).
You can bait R.O.B. into using side special which is laggy enough to punish. I also believe that you can grab him while he's doing it.
ROB can do a ROBicide on smashville, which is where he grabs you on the moving platform then does an up throw at a time where the platform moves away so you both fall to your death. ROB will lose if the stocks are even but if he has a stock advantage he could win, or he could essentially restart the match if they have equal stocks but he has a high percentage. Therefore, if you see a ROB hanging out on the edge of the SV platform he will either ROBicide or bthrow so just wait it out and spam projectiles.

Samus

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 60:40

Author: Jash
Pros:
Can out spam Samus due to projectile speed differences.
Can easily juggle Samus due to Up tilt out-spacing Samus Dair.
Can rush Samus down in close combat due to close combat speed differences.
Zair pierces both missles and super missles making it easier to approach Samus.

Cons:
Samus' Zair has a lot of priority, making it difficult to approach at times.
Samus is rather heavy, making it difficult to land a solid kill at early percentages.

This matchup usually is known to be a "Spamfest" which is basically two silly players standing on each side of the stage and throwing items. For Samus this may the logical way to play this matchup but for Toon Link it is wrong. Toon Link excels when it comes to close combat range; his dash speed makes it easy to approach Samus and his quick light moves make it possible to juggle Samus and rack up a lot of damage. Toon Link does however have to watch out for Samus' Zair; it shoots very far and pierces through both boomerang and arrow.

Tips: Aim for close combat range; mid range isn't safe due to Samus' Zair out spacing Toon Link's Zair and projectile range is a collision battle which will just go to time. Using Toon Links range and quickness in close combat will assure you the advantage.
Samus can be difficult to edge guard due to her Up-B being a multi hit move and going through the bomb on contact as well as having the ability to tether the ledge. However due to Samus having laggy aerials and Special attacks, it is not very safe for Samus to retaliate offstage. I suggest staying on stage and aim both Boomerang and arrows at Samus while she is offstage and bait her reaction with a run off Fair.
Personally I like to take Samus to platform stages (Battlefield, Lylat Cruise). Samus is floaty, which means that when she goes up it's tough for her to get back down if sharked correctly, platforms only allow her landing to be more telegraphed which makes it easier to chase her landing. I also like to go to Halberd against Samus, there is very little space for her to move and it is easier to kill her off the top of the stage. Not saying flat stages are bad for Toon Link in this matchup, just saying that platforms make it easier to deal with.

Just to add to that:
HyLeN - I agree that Samus can be easily juggled. After you get Samus in the air you can literally just short hop up air and she can't really do anything about it since up air out-ranges Dair and her air mobility isn't the best. Also if she airdodges up air, because you short hopped it you can punish the airdodge.
Also just note that both fast missiles and full charge shot can brake shields, so maybe think about utilising the Hylian shield.
Zan - Close combat does help but just note that Samus has tools for dealing with that, notably Jab, Nair and Up-B OoS. Also forgot bombs can beat/stop Samus' projectiles most notably the charge shot.

Shulk

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55:45

Author: Jash​

Pros:
Can easily zone Shulk out due to Shulks lack of projectiles.
Can easily edgeguard Shulk due to the amount of hitboxes Shulks Up B has.
Can easily juggle Shulk due to the slow start up on all of Shulks aerials.

Cons:
Can be out spaced by Shulks deadly mid range game.
Can be easily edge guarded due to Shulk fair's great priorities.

This is yet another game of cat and mouse, the classic "watch out for that range" matchup that existed in the Young Link vs Marth matchup in Melee; it was something like "if Young Link gets hit, he's taking a lot of damage, so don't get hit." This matchup is the same but a tad easier to handle, the cons remain the same for dealing with the Shulk juggles that can ultimately lead you to be in an uncomfortable position, which would be offstage as it can be difficult to recover against that fair. However if you stay in projectile range and avoid his slow start up aerials, this matchup becomes much easier.

Tips: Avoid close combat and mid range; Shulk plays both ranges very well so I don't recommend approaching him while he is grounded, projectile range is the way to bait his huge aerial hit boxes which can lead to a massive juggle since Shulk is quite heavy. Even so, that range can also be tricky to play against due to Shulk's fair and bair priorities which can cut through bombs without damage calculations, so bait the aerials and counter.
Shulks Speed and Jump art may be the most difficult to handle, giving him a boost in his overall movement. If it's Speed, stop using projectiles when he is grounded, he will punish you every time. Play defensive and bait the shield grab and/or fair approach. Once you knock him in the air, then take bombs out. If it's Jump, stay projectile range and throw bombs up every time he jumps. It's hard to punish Jump art landing so I don't recommend trying with physical attacks. If he jumps and so happens to nair your shield, just run away unless you have a bomb in hand.
Don't be afraid to edge guard Shulk. have a bomb in your hand and throw it down at his recovery; it'll hit him 90% of the time (the other 10% would be if his Up B so happens to slash the bomb allowing it to go through without damage calculations, that's likely to not happen though). The other way Shulk can recover is the saving the second jump for the Jump art tactic; again always have a bomb and bait whatever he does next.
Avoid platforms by all means (Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza) Shulk will frame trap you to death. Anything flat or with moving platforms are the stages you wanna focus on (Final Destination, Smashville, Town & City, Duck Hunt). Personally I like to take Shulk to Halberd. Shulk can be difficult to kill but Halberd turns that around, allowing Toon Link to kill Shulk at 100% with Up air and 90% with Fsmash, however that stage choice may vary depending on style; if you haven't had much practice on Halberd then that can turn a good stage into a bad one.

Just to add to that:
Yackabean - When Shulk is in Buster or Smash, avoid him. Buster will stack on damage quickly giving him an easy percent lead while smash can kill early.
Jump is really abusable on stage with platforms such as Town & City. Shulk is probably the hardest character in the game to kill if he utilises this stage to switch between Jump and Shield. I'd consider banning Town & City just so Shulk can't stall his stocks.
You'll most likely see Shulks counter when you're near death percent. Best thing to do when going for the kill is not rely on straight Uair/Fair by itself. Instead you'll want to go for a Rang/Bomb combo'd into our Fair/Uair or else just use B-throw which cannot be countered obviously.

Sonic

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 55-45, Toon Link's favor

Author: Jash
Pros:
Out spaces all of Sonic's moves.
Able to wall Sonic with both projectiles and physical attacks.
Able to punish all of Sonic's landing aerials (excluding Sonic's land cancel dair)

Cons:
Can be quickly rushed in by Sonic.
Spin dash has the ability to go through thrown bombs without taking damage.

This match-up is a classic cat and mouse (or in this case, hedgehog and elf), Toon Link having to space as many safe moves as possible to avoid getting grabbed by Sonic. Sonic's running speed (being the best in the game) in my opinion is the toughest thing to deal with in this match-up; it's easy for Sonic to run in and react to anything Toon Link throws at him. On the other hand, when it comes to gaining stage control, I believe it is Toon Link who has a better time doing so. Sonic may be the quickest, but Toon Link is pretty quick himself, with a projectile game and mid-range game that are very proficient for characters that do not have projectiles, like Sonic in this case.

Tips: Avoid grab range; this is the place where Sonic reigns supreme, try to stay mid range or projectile range in this match-up.
Sonic's spin dashes and dash attack are multi hit moves, meaning there is a chance of thrown bombs going through them with out taking any damage. The homing attack can be difficult to deal with sometimes, I find the solution to be to just upsmash whenever you see him use it.
I would avoid flat stages honestly, platforms help with the rush pressure Sonic has, also Toon Link does generally well on platform stages.

Note on stages by myself (Artemis):
Never take Sonic to Delfino, Halberd, Kongo, or on the 3DS, Yoshi's Island; he really likes those stages. Castle Siege is also especially bad for Toon Link in this match-up since it's a good stage for Sonic.

Villager

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 50:50

Author: Jash
Pros:
Able to punish all Villager aerials out of shield.
Out spaces most of Villagers physical attacks.
Toon Links running speed and decent ranged attacks makes it easy to pressure Villager.

Cons:
Villager can pocket items that are thrown at him.
It can be very difficult to edge guard him.
Villagers fsmash edge guard can kill really quickly.

This matchup is tricky since it pretty much forces Toon Link to be more aggressive than the usual space with projectiles. Villager can literally make it unwinnable if you try to focus mainly on using your projectiles, not only can villager pocket your items but his projectiles out priorities Toon Link's. However Villager has a hard time dealing with pressure due to the lag in his aerials, although Toon Link is considered a projectile based character, he does well up close in the match up.

Tips: Don't Spam Projectiles!
Zair is great for approaching this matchup, make sure you space it well so you cannot get punished by Villagers Nair.
Villager is sorta floaty which makes it easy to follow him when he is aerial, with constant sharking and guessing when he will do an aerial to power shield and punish, you'll have an easier time with this matchup.
Do your best to stay on stage, there is really no stopping villager fsmash off stage so avoid the situation at all cost.

Wario

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 47-54

Author: Jash
Pros:
Toon out spaces Wario with almost anything.
Can camp and wall Wario with projectiles and Zair.
Can combo Wario fairly easily.
Can punish all of Wario's landing aerials.

Cons:
Can be difficult to kill Wario.
Wario's waft kills Toon very early.
Wario's bite leaves Toon with little options while he is cornered.

This matchup can be very confusing for a Toon Link that has little experience in it, dealing with Wario's aerial mobility can be the trickiest part. Wario has a lot of moves that string together especially on low percentages, allowing him to rack up damage and prepare for the quick waft kills. However Wario isn't very good at approaching, leaving him with one move that he can legitimately approach with which will be his bike; because of this Toon Link can not only rack up damage with his combo ability but can also avoid taking damage in the process if you're careful.

Tips: Avoid close combat; Wario reigns supreme not only on aggression but destroys your defensive tactics up close due to bite. Stay mid range and projectile range for as long as you can.
It's a good idea to throw a bomb at Wario's bite animation due to his lag afterwards being so punishable, however you never wanna do this when you're up close unless you like getting killed at 100%.
Zair is the best thing to use when Wario starts to approach, it out spaces almost everything in his move set (excluding waft) and even knocks him off his bike.
Warios Nair and Dair are multi hit moves; this means that they are able to completely beat out the boomerang and can also let him pass straight through thrown bombs (due to the individual hitboxes on Nair/Dair being too weak to blow the bomb up leaving the bomb in a sort of hitstun for a short period of time in which it cannot detect enemy hurtboxes). My advice is to make sure Wario's Nair/Dair hits the ground before throwing the bomb.
I would personally avoid stages with many platforms in this matchup. Battlefield is like Wario World so I would ban that with Lylat cruise and maybe even halberd depending on the style of Wario. An aggressive Wario may wanna go halberd and one who bases himself on aerial mix ups would want to go to Lylat cruise or battlefield. Go to a flat stage or a big stage you can run around in like certain parts of Castle Siege.

Just to add to that: HyLeN and Wafty
Avoid recovering vertically. Wario can come down on you with a dair or waft - both of which can kill.
Wario's Dair eats TL's recovery. Custom 2 Up-B helps, otherwise tether is more difficult for Wario to punish.

Yoshi

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 50:50

Author: Jash
Pros:
Builds a strong wall against Yoshi approaches.
Out spaces Yoshi against most of his physical attacks.
Can punish all of Yoshi aerials when he hits the ground.
Quite easy to combo (note from Zan: beware of nair/double jump escapes)

Cons:
Gets killed pretty quickly by Yoshi smash attacks.
Out spaced by Yoshi attacks such as fair and fsmash.
Can be difficult dealing with aggressive Yoshi pressure.

This matchup is all about stage control, whoever gets it first will dominate the hardest. That being said it is agreed that Toon Link has an easier time finding stage control over Yoshi slightly. Eggs are usually the first and his greatest option Yoshi has to look for stage control, his other would obviously be running in to attack you with something physical. Toon Link on the other hand has much more diverse ways of approaching and keeping himself safe from approaches.

Tips: Zair is probably the strongest thing we have against eggs, not only piercing through them and completely nullifying the hit box but still having a hit box even after piercing through the eggs.
Yoshi fair has a huge hit box and usually out spaces most of Toon Links moves, it is however very punishable so my suggestion is look out for when he is in the air and power shield his aerials since they are all punishable on shield.
Space him as much as you can, Yoshi has a well-balanced close range game that can get out of hand if you are not careful, use projectiles to bait his punishable moves from afar and push him back with your physical attacks when he gets too close.

Zelda

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 60:40

Author: Jash[/centre]
Pros:
Can out space Zelda with every aerial in close combat due to range/priority differences.
Can kill Zelda at early percentages due to her light weight.
Can easily rush down Zelda due to speed differences.
Can wall out Zelda with perfect spaced Zair and Fair.

Cons:
Zelda can reflect all of Toon Links projectiles with Nayru's Love.
Zelda can kill Toon Link early with her Up B.

This matchup is simple for any Toon Link that knows how to play with aggression, out spacing every aerial that Zelda has in her move-set with his own. I wouldn't recommend spamming projectiles in this matchup; Zelda's Nayru's Love can reflect multiple projectiles which can be rough for Toon Link period. So long as you stay in mid range and/or close combat range, you will see how one sided this matchup can be.

Tips: DO NOT SPAM PROJECTILES! Stay mid range and poke Zelda with fully spaced Zairs and/or stay close combat range and pressure Zelda with quick well spaced aerials.
Avoid Zelda's Farore's Wind (Up B); it is very strong and can kill Toon Link very early. Watch your bomb pulling as it can lead to you getting killed. You can wait the Up-B out and power shield it as it is punishable on shield.
You should avoid stages with platforms such as Battlefield.

Just to add to that:
Zan - A good mix up is baiting Nayru's love with a BFO Nair. Also be careful of Up-B OoS.

 

[PSIBoy]

At least there's a match-up thread now. Umm... Vs Bowser, we have the advantage of long range projectiles, intermediate range, and short range. Bowser is restricted to only short range that gets shorter the more time he uses it. However, Bowser is quite fast and capable of closing the range quickly, therefore nullifying our advantage mostly. At that point, Bowser's power advantage comes into play. Toon Link's attacks are faster, but Bowser can take a pummeling and still dish out as much hurt in a few hits. That's before we get to KOing. Toon Link must keep at least a 20-40% lead at all times if he is to go even, but even then he still might be at a disadvantage since Bowser is quite capable of living past 200 at times, and Bowser will probably KO after 120 if we're lucky. He can KO around 80 with b-air.

The key is to play defensively and to not get hit and counterattack. I'd say the matchup is probably 40-60 Bowser's favor, but I'm rather inexperienced with discussing match-ups. Feel free to criticize.

I have little information on Bowser Jr., so can't really contribute there.

Edit: Since no one seems to be commenting on this, I'll try to do Bowser Jr. I guess...

I haven't really come across a good one, yet. They all seem to use mecha-koopa, then try to ram you down with their kart mode. Also, expect jabs and dash attacks.

Bowser Jr.'s big weakness, however, is recovery. In my experience, if not on the ground, it takes time for the Clown Car to respawn after using up-b. This means Bowser Jr. cannot use his recovery even after being hit until the car respawns, which allows for gimps (not sure how accurate this is).

Given only my limited knowledge, I'm not going to rate this match-up as of right now.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Hey Toon Link mains. Bowser main here.

I can say with certainty that your projectile game is key in this matchup, since Bowser is pretty much a melee character, save his Fire Breath. Bowser's main staple in punishment is Fortress (Up-B) out of shield. Also, watch out for his grabs, since his throws are powerful. You have to commit to completely killing Bowser, because he CAN survive at absurdly high damage percentages. At that point, the rage mechanic kicks in, and a raged Bowser is an opponent no one should underestimate. His early killing power is made even more devastating, and the most powerful smash attack in the game (Bowser's Forward Smash) has been made even more powerful in the v1.0.4 patch.

Basically if you keep Bowser out of your face, you can chip him away from afar and deal a smash attack to kill him. A Bowser wishing to shut down your projectile game may use Fire Breath as an approach, which also eats your weaker arrows. If you manage to let a Bowser come within melee range on you, you will be easily pummeled, so use your superior speed to keep a distance away from him. Oh and watch out for Bowser Bomb. While it is probably the most heavily telegraphed move in the game, it can break shields if it hits right. And watch out for a Bowser who has a strong aerial game, because he can go DEEP offstage to kill you and still recover back on stage.

Here are a few things you can watch out from competent Bowsers in my video of a matchup against Toon Link:

 

[Fangblade]

"Honestly it depends on how patient both players are. Bowser's only real way of winning is to punish any and all mistakes the opponent makes since he has terrible lag on almost every move except his jab and f-tilt (d-tilt is debatable). The main goal for bowser is to close the space as quickly as possible whenever TL is holding a bomb, as he is unable to grab or pop off quick tilts to knock him away and continue the camping onslaught, which you should do for the entire match as TL unless of course they start playing super aggressive and get an opening via power-shielding everything. Whenever you feel bowser is coming in too fast, don't pull out a bomb as your defensive options are limited since it's easy to grab a bomb while performing a dash attack. Only shoot arrows on top of other projectiles, leading with the boomerang ideally as it poses the least risk using due to low amount of lag, but still mix it up. I'd say the MU is 55:45 in bowser' favor, it comes down to who makes the least amount of mistakes."

After some heated matches w/ a decent Bowser player he had this to say when I asked about this MU^

There's a lot of shield pressure on both considering how easily Bowser can KO us. If TL wants to get 'in' he's going to have to shield his way, which can result in breaking your shield if you're hit by several moves or a charged Fsmash. Spamming>Grab is probably your safest option when he's power shielding YOU, because if you land on him you're gonna get punched. Uthrow is your best throw, since you can go for the Uair or bomb pull. One thing to be careful for is Bowsers Dair, while it has a lot of landing lag it has a broken hitbox (similar to DDD's Uspecial) and does a good job of disrupting you. Bowser may approach with Fire, this is your chance to throw a bomb and follow up with whatever. You probably wont have enough time to do anything but use another projectile.

Here are a couple things to watch out for:
-Being KO'd off stage early by an Aerial
-Don't roll back onto the stage from the ledge, he'll Usmash. Best to jump .
-His Dair, it works like DDD's Uspecial, having a huge broken hitbox that you cant see.
-You want to get back onstage ASAP if hurled of the ledge, his Dtilt will knock you off the ledge if you're attempting to snap onto the ledge for a second time.
-His OoS Uspecial.

Bowser Jr.> Hmm not much experience w/ this guy. You can catch his little Bombchu thing by airdodging quite easily is the best advice I've gotten on that MU.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Here are a couple things to watch out for:
-Being KO'd off stage early by an Aerial
-Don't roll back onto the stage from the ledge, he'll Usmash. Best to jump .-His Dair, it works like DDD's Uspecial, having a huge broken hitbox that you cant see.
-You want to get back onstage ASAP if hurled of the ledge, his Dtilt will knock you off the ledge if you're attempting to snap onto the ledge for a second time.
-His OoS Uspecial.

To add:
-Bowser's Back Air is tremendously powerful. If a Bowser player can read your recovery and connect with it deep offstage, you (or anyone) will die at early percentages.
-Up Smash or Fortress, or even grab if the Bowser want to set you up for an aerial follow up
-A very aggressive off-stage Bowser will usually not wait for anyone to reach the ledge. He will go offstage and follow up with F-air or Back Air. If Bowser's very gutsy and is in the right location, he will go for the Down Air meteor.
-Fortress is our main punishment in that it comes out quickly and does multiple hits. The final hit sends you flying so it's a good way to get aggressive people off us and to set up followup attacks.

Bowser can kill at early percentages. Be wary of a Bowser who is proficient at hard reading opponents to land Forward smashes. The lowest I've ever killed a player is a Sheik player with a fully charged non-rage sweet-spotted Forward Smash at 52%. She went from 18% to 52% and a KO. Bowser's devastating power is offset by the terrible lag most of his moves make, and most especially his abysmal landing lag. You can pressure Bowser constantly by taking advantage of his landing lag and slow attack speed. The only quick move you have to watch out for is grounded Whirling Fortress.

I consider this matchup to be quite even, boiling down to whoever makes the least amount of mistakes and can punish the other player's mistakes.

 

[Yackabean]

I'd say Bowsers match up is a 55:45 in Toon Links favour.

Pros:

• Toon Link can camp and run away from bowser all day with projectiles
• Large character who is very easy to range and smack with projectiles even under shield pressure
• Bowser kill moves are somewhat slow, F-smash is soo punishable when whiffed. Down B is dangerous if you shield it but still really punishable. I wouldn't challenge up airing it in this game. I believe it has super armour now.
• FH Nair is super safe on Bowser under shield pressure.
• Recovery is somewhat easy to punish

Cons:

• Bowser kills super early
• His punishes are lethal and you want to avoid playing risky or you're going to easily take 15% + from a single punish
• Back throw will take forever to kill this heavy character.
• Bowsers Back Air is ridiculously safe.
• Our recovery is easy for Bowser to gimp.

These are a few general things. I'd say this match up is even but I think Toon Link may slightly have the advantage because he has the ability to run away. As long as you're avoiding Bowsers most devastating set ups and kill options this seems like a pretty simple match up at hand.

Bowser Jr. (Sadly have no notes on him)

 

[Deleted member]

I got some practice against Bowsers recently, and this is what I've found in the match-up:

Advantages:
- You can usually combo him with utilt to at least 25%-30% if he's in front of the attack.
- He's very easy to camp.
- Zair is really good here.
- Your Hylian shield works perfectly against his fire breath.
Disadvantages:
- He's hard to deal with up-close.
- On top of him being annoyingly hard to kill because of him being a heavyweight + TL's poor killing ability, the rage mechanic makes him terrifying at higher %s, making it hard to get in and KO him.
- Bair and fair are too slow to be of much use here.
- Bowser can easily punish uair.

Strategy:
Camp. Avoid using moves that are easy to punish. Utilt if the opportunity arises. If you absolutely have to get in close then carefully space zair, since it's faster than Bowser's moves that can out-range it. Bowser is pretty good at punishing, so avoid using moves that are easily punishable.

Stages:
Longer stages are great for running away against him. He's surprisingly good at sharking you from under platforms, so Smashville (Wii U only, obviously) and Final Destination are good here. On the 3DS version, Battlefield is better than Yoshi's Island, since Bowser has a hard time sharking you from the middle platform on Battlefield.
On small stages:
Camp as much as you can, and carefully space with zair when you're forced to get close.
On stages with low platforms:
It should be easy enough to get Bowser on to the platforms if you can start a uair combo on him, then just shark him.

My guess on the match-up ratio: 50:50. I would say 55:45 TL's favor, but Bowser is really good at taking advantage of TL's poor killing ability, and a lot of TL's good killing moves are too risky to use here. However, TL isn't completely crappy against Bowser, since his camping ability and zair can give Bowser a hard time.


As for Bowser Jr, I've been all over the internet looking for a single Bowser Jr main to play with. I couldn't even find one who used him casually, let alone anyone who played him competitively. I even looked in the Bowser Jr boards and considered bugging someone there, but the only people whose posts I saw there who had him as their main on their profile haven't logged in in at least several days. Yesterday I almost got to watch a Bowser Jr play in a tournament match at a tourney I was at, but my match got called right when the Bowser Jr player started playing. So yeah, I know absolutely nothing about Bowser Jr except that he camps and that our Hylian shield blocks his projectiles except the explosion from the toy.

 

[PSIBoy]

I got some practice against Bowsers recently, and this is what I've found in the match-up:

Advantages:
- You can usually combo him with utilt to at least 25%-30% if he's in front of the attack.
- He's very easy to camp.
- Zair is really good here.
- Your Hylian shield works perfectly against his fire breath.
Disadvantages:
- He's hard to deal with up-close.
- On top of him being annoyingly hard to kill because of him being a heavyweight + TL's poor killing ability, the rage mechanic makes him terrifying at higher %s, making it hard to get in and KO him.
- Bair and fair are too slow to be of much use here.
- Bowser can easily punish uair.
Strategy:
Camp. Avoid using moves that are easy to punish. Utilt if the opportunity arises. If you absolutely have to get in close then carefully space zair, since it's faster than Bowser's moves that can out-range it. Bowser is pretty good at punishing, so avoid using moves that are easily punishable.

Stages:
Longer stages are great for running away against him. He's surprisingly good at sharking you from under platforms, so Smashville (Wii U only, obviously) and Final Destination are good here. On the 3DS version, Battlefield is better than Yoshi's Island, since Bowser has a hard time sharking you from the middle platform on Yoshi's.
On small stages:
Camp as much as you can, and carefully space with zair when you're forced to get close.
On stages with low platforms:
It should be easy enough to get Bowser on to the platforms if you can start a uair combo on him, then just shark him.

My guess on the match-up ratio: 50:50. I would say 55:45 TL's favor, but Bowser is really good at taking advantage of TL's poor killing ability, and a lot of TL's good killing moves are too risky to use here. However, TL isn't completely crappy against Bowser, since his camping ability and zair can give Bowser a hard time.


As for Bowser Jr, I've been all over the internet looking for a single Bowser Jr main to play with. I couldn't even find one who used him casually. I even looked in the Bowser Jr boards and considered bugging someone there, but the only people whose posts I saw there who had him as their main on their profile haven't logged in in at least several days. Yesterday I almost got to watch a Bowser Jr play in a tournament match at a tourney I was at, but my match got called right when the Bowser Jr player started playing. So yeah, I know absolutely nothing about Bowser Jr except that he camps and that our Hylian shield blocks his projectiles except the explosion from the toy.

Actually, u-air actually out-prioritizes his d-air and down-b (in the air). But other than that, leaves you pretty open.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, u-air actually out-prioritizes his d-air and down-b (in the air). But other than that, leaves you pretty open.

True, but this won't work against a good Bowser. It's pretty predictable when you're about to uair, so he can just delay his attack until after uair is done and you're suffering ending lag from the move.

 

[Fangblade]

It's good pressure being under him in the air at least. You can always fish for one, and if he airdodges you can FF and catch him w/ it. Him being so larger it's easier than w/ other characters. He has no tools to land safely that beats our Uair.

 

[Deleted member]

Finally got some match-up experience with a Bowser Jr. After playing for about an hour and a half and discussing the match-up a little bit with the person I played with, here's what I have to say about this match-up (keep in mind, it's obviously not perfect since this is just based on experience with one person):

About Bowser Jr:
Bowser Jr is unusual for a camper in that he prefers small stages for more stage control. He has good projectiles and a good bair and fair, and is very good at gimping.

Advantages:
- Your projectiles and camping ability can force him to fight you up close.
- Utilt strings are surprisingly good here. His dair has too much start-up to punish your utilt, forcing him to run away.
- He has a hard time killing just like you do.
Disadvantages:
- His fair, bair, cannonballs, and upb are good at taking advantage of your poor recovery.
- Spacing with zair isn't very useful here.
- His exploding toy will punish you if you try to grab him, so grabs are generally unsafe.

General Strategy:
Camp. Don't try to be aggressive with him if you don't want to get badly punished. His fair and bair will completely wreck you, so avoid them. Keep in mind you can pick up his exploding toy and throw it right back at him.
Generally, if you end up in the air you want to focus on getting back to the ground as fast as possible. Don't try to fight him from the air, you won't win that fight. However, if he's above you you can easily shoot projectiles at him to try to lure him into a uair, or at least make it hell for him to try to get back to the ground.
Don't try to attack him when recovering towards the stage. His fair has a disjointed hitbox and very little start-up lag, so your fair won't work for defending against his fair.
The ground is the best place to be in this match-up. Fire as many projectiles at him as possible, and make sure to watch out for his as well. Carefully cover your escape with bombs and the boomerang if he comes close. His fsmash can be shield-grabbed, but it has very little ending lag, so don't try to punish it after the attack is over.

Stages:
As mentioned in the "About Bowser Jr" section, Bowser Jr likes small stages where his projectiles give him good control of the stage and where he can more easily pressure anyone who out-camps him. He also likes platforms where he can shark you with his amazing aerials.
On large stages:
You have the advantage here, so camp his ass off and don't get close.
On small stages:
Camp as much as you can, and watch carefully for an opportunity to punish. Just be careful; his jab, dtilt, and fsmash are extremely difficult to punish, so don't risk it against those moves.
On stages with platforms:
Stay on the ground as much as possible when he's close enough to come up and shark you. If he tries to camp you from the ground then use your projectiles to your advantage to camp him, then be prepared to get off the platform ASAP if he tries to approach. If he tries to camp you from a platform with his cannoballs then fire projectiles up at him.

Best to worst stages on the 3DS (keep in mind, this is almost entirely theoretical; I have no experience with Bowser Jr on the 3DS version):
1. Final Destination and omegas
2. Yoshi's Island
3. Battlefield
4. Prism Tower
Top 3 Best stages on Wii U:
1. Final Destination and omegas
2. Smashville
3. Town and City
Worst stage on the Wii U:
Congo Jungle 64

Miscellaneous:
Your Hylian shield protects against his projectiles except the explosion from the toy. His projectiles continue to go in the direction they were going in when they hit your shield, which looks funny.

My guess on the match-up ratio: 50:50. Toon Link forces Bowser Jr to come up close, while Bowser Jr forces Toon Link to be much more careful than usual with his recovery. Both have a hard time killing each other. Because of that, the match-up feels about even.

 

[Deleted member]

On the Bowser match-up ratio, I think I agree with Yackabean. 55:45 sounds about right, since the match-up is definitely at least slightly in TL's favor. I've lurked the Bowser boards a bit, and the Bowser mains there seem to dislike the match-up, which says a lot considering how few people play as TL. Looking through their match-up thread, it doesn't seem anyone there thinks the match-up is in Bowser's favor. Our main issue with Bowser is our hard time killing him + his easy ability to kill us (especially with rage), but considering our other strengths in the match-up that's not too bad. It's definitely not enough to put the match-up in Bowser's favor.



Also, with how inactive this thread has been, I've been heavily considering changing the thread to either involve discussing three characters a week, or discussing four or five characters every two weeks (which I would obviously change the thread title for). I'm leaning towards discussing four characters for two weeks, since one week feels rushed, and more than four characters could possibly be juggling too much at a time. What do you guys think?

 

[PSIBoy]

Also, with how inactive this thread has been, I've been heavily considering changing the thread to either involve discussing three characters a week, or discussing four or five characters every two weeks (which I would obviously change the thread title for). I'm leaning towards discussing four characters for two weeks, since one week feels rushed, and more than four characters could possibly be juggling too much at a time. What do you guys think?

Yeah, four characters for two weeks would probably be best.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, four characters for two weeks would probably be best.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should go with this. I also think Bowser and Bowser Jr should be extended for another week since they haven't even been discussed for two weeks, plus the Wii U version having not come out yet when the discussion started didn't help. So yeah, this gave me the idea of discussing four characters at a time, each lasting for two weeks. With Bowser and Bowser Jr ending next week, and Captain Falcon and Charizard ending the week after, our match-up discussions would still have change going on every week, and we'd still be discussing two characters at a time. The alternative is to discuss Bowser and Bowser Jr for an extra two weeks along with Captain Falcon and Charizard, but I don't think the extra week will add anything important, plus it would just slow the discussion down and make people less likely to want to check back on the thread more often.


Also, just tested a bunch and found that utilt strings started at 0% on Bowser will generally last up to about 26%. I also made sure to test it on both the 3DS and Wii U, and the results were the same. With Bowser Jr it's going to depend much more on how good the opponent is at breaking out of the utilt combo, so I didn't bother testing it on him.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Charizard and Captain Falcon, along with Bowser and Bowser Jr. from last week. Hopefully 4 characters a week with each being discussed for two weeks will help with the discussion.

 

[PSIBoy]

Captain Falcon is a rush down character for sure. He's among the fastest characters in the game. Our projectile camping game will not be as effective on him than most. Close up, a lot of his moves have ending lag, so shield and then punish with a grab, spin attack, whatever as long as it is fast enough. Be wary of his Raptor Boost as you get around 100%: it can kill then. His aerials/throws are also good for combining. I'd say a 45-55 or 40-50 CF favor since we can't easily use our projectile game, though we can punish, but CF is very strong up close and has several good combos.

I have not faced many good Charizards, but Charizard hits like a tank. Our projectile camping game could work, but he is faster than most heavyweights dashing I think, so he can close the distance fairly quickly. Other than that, his Flare Blitz has recoil damage, so shield it and he takes more damage anyway. Rock Smash has super armor: be careful around it. Several of his normal attacks have heavy ending lag we can take advantage of. I'd say 55-45 in TL favor since projectile game is usable and TL can take advantage of heavy ending lag, but Charizard can easily win with enough hits if TL gets careless/read all the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Captain Falcon is a rush down character for sure. He's among the fastest characters in the game. Our projectile camping game will not be as effective on him than most. Close up, a lot of his moves have ending lag, so shield and then punish with a grab, spin attack, whatever as long as it is fast enough. Be wary of his Raptor Boost as you get around 100%: it can kill then. His aerials/throws are also good for combining. I'd say a 45-55 or 40-50 CF favor since we can't easily use our projectile game, though we can punish, but CF is very strong up close and has several good combos.

While I haven't faced many Falcons, speed shouldn't be too big of an issue as long as you cover your escape well enough so you can slow them down. Also, if I remember correctly, TL has a very good utilt string against CF (which would make sense since he's a fast faller), so utilt should be a very good punish for Falcon's laggy moves.
I don't have much experience to back this stuff up, though, so someone tell me if I'm wrong.

Also, here's some old stuff I wrote about Captain Falcon and Charizard. I got this stuff from experience and lurking in the Falcon and Charizard boards.

"Captain Falcon
Pros:
- He hates campers.
- Zair is an especially useful spacing tool in this match-up.
- You can usually combo him with utilt until at least around 29%-36% if he's in front of the attack.
Cons:
- He can be hard to run from while camping since he's much faster than you.
Strategy:
Camp. Some CFs like to approach campers with their shield, so bait the shield and grab. When running away, make extra sure there are still projectiles flying towards CF to slow him down so you can get away safely.


Charizard
Pros:
- Camping works here.
- He doesn't have much defense against zair or bair.
- Your moves are much faster than his.
Cons:
- His flamethrower out-prioritizes arrows and the boomerang.
- Utilt doesn't work very well on him, unlike other heavy-weights.
- Your Hylian shield doesn't work against flamethrower.
Strategy:
Camp. Zair if he comes close to you, and feel free to punish his mistakes with bair."

 

[PSIBoy]

While I haven't faced many Falcons, speed shouldn't be too big of an issue as long as you cover your escape well enough so you can slow them down. Also, if I remember correctly, TL has a very good utilt string against CF (which would make sense since he's a fast faller), so utilt should be a very good punish for Falcon's laggy moves.
I don't have much experience to back this stuff up, though, so someone tell me if I'm wrong.

Also, here's some old stuff I wrote about Captain Falcon and Charizard. I got this stuff from experience and lurking in the Falcon and Charizard boards.

"Captain Falcon
Pros:
- He hates campers.
- Zair is an especially useful spacing tool in this match-up.
- You can usually combo him with utilt until at least around 29%-36% if he's in front of the attack.
Cons:
- He can be hard to run from while camping since he's much faster than you.
Strategy:
Camp. Some CFs like to approach campers with their shield, so bait the shield and grab. When running away, make extra sure there are still projectiles flying towards CF to slow him down so you can get away safely.


Charizard
Pros:
- Camping works here.
- He doesn't have much defense against zair or bair.
- Your moves are much faster than his.
Cons:
- His flamethrower out-prioritizes arrows and the boomerang.
- Utilt doesn't work very well on him, unlike other heavy-weights.
- Your Hylian shield doesn't work against flamethrower.
Strategy:
Camp. Zair if he comes close to you, and feel free to punish his mistakes with bair."

Oh. Well, I just thought his speed would make camping an issue, but you jut have to be more careful it seems like.

 

[Fangblade]

Does our Uair beat Cpt Falcons Dair?

It's pretty easy to Camp Cpt Falcon if your spacing correctly, but if you're too committed to camping you're going to get grabbed a lot. And miss opportunity where you can punish his landings.

 

[Jash]

Bowser: 60 - 40 TL

I've played many Bowsers who told me that Toon Link destroys Bowser, however it is not too far from the truth. Bowser has very VERY powerful attacks that are also very VERY slow and punishable at that. I find the trick to beating Bowser with Toon Link is setting up with projectiles and mid range as you can and ultimately getting that grab and throwing him up. Toon Links up air outprioritizes ALL of Bowsers arials when he is directly above and ALL of his arials have enough landing lag to punish easily and there is no worry about the OOS Fortress (which is a big part of his defense game) so keeping the big turtle arial is a must if you want to have an easy time with this MU.
Be careful but Don't be afraid to fair him while he's offstage, his fair has quick start up and a surprisingly huge hitbox but it also increases his damagebox as well as if he misses the fair then he is completely open to your fair. That is his only safe option off stage (from what I've experienced) other then that he has to Up B which Toon Link's fair outprioritizes.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser: 60 - 40 TL

The more I think about it and read the information posted here so far, the more I think it probably is 60:40. So yeah, I think you're right about this.

Also, if anyone wants to write a match-up guide based on the info posted here so far then go right ahead (preferably only for match-ups finishing this week for obvious reasons). If people like it then I'll post it in the match-up guides thread I plan on making.

Another thing, here's a template for a match-up chart I've been working on. Any thoughts? http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums...font40letterspacing-3centered_zps317620b5.png

 

[Deleted member]

Just tested what @ PSIBoy said about gimping Bowser Jr's recovery by having someone else play as BJ as I gimp them, and vice versa. Gimping him after he's used his recovery really works, he doesn't seem to be able to use his recovery again until after he's hit the stage or grabbed the ledge (the only exception being if you use spin attack to gimp him, which you shouldn't do, anyway). That definitely makes the BJ match-up ****loads easier.

But yeah, I'm starting to think this thread should be changed so it's both a match-up guides and discussion thread instead of having a separate thread for guides. It would mean fewer stickied topics, which would be great since we already have too many stickied topics as it is right now. I also don't see how a separate thread would serve much purpose aside from the guides in the OP. But yeah, if we end up going with this I'll put the guides in the reserved post. What do you guys think of this?

Also, I wrote a match-up thing for Bowser based on the stuff people have mentioned here so far as an example. If someone could come up with a better match-up guide based on what's been written on this match-up so far that would be super awesome. As for Bowser Jr, I think we're going to need more info on that match-up before anything gets put up for him except that he's easy to gimp with every move except the spin attack.

Bowser

Spoiler

Match-up ratio: 60:40, Toon Link's favor

Pros​

+ Bowser's moves are slow and easy to punish, especially his fsmash and aerials
+ Toon Link's uair beats all of Bowser's aerials and his ground pound when he's directly above you (just be careful about using it or he'll punish you)
+ Camping works very well here
+ He's easy to beat when he's in the air
+ Spacing with zair works very well here
+ Utilt strings can combo him to around 25%-30%
+ Your fair works great for gimping him.

Cons​

- Bowser can easily punish you if you aren't careful
- Bowser being heavy and hard to kill + his already being a heavy-hitter makes him scary at higher %s because of the rage mechanic
- His upb is quick and is annoying when done out of shield
- He has an easy time gimping us, especially with fair and bair
- A lot of his attacks can break your shield
- Bowser has an easy time KOing you, and his moves overall kill insanely early

General strategy​

Since Bowser obviously needs to be close to you to do any damage, camp Bowser as much as you can. Get him into the air whenever possible. Using projectiles at mid-range is good for helping with getting him into the air, since this can bait a shield, leaving him open to being grabbed. If he gets hit by any of your projectiles you can also grab him from there while he's recovering from the hit stun, then get him into the air.
Grabs are also your best option against power-shielding Bowsers. Once you've grabbed him use uthrow on him to easily get him into the air.
Keep in mind that your uair beats all of Bowser's aerials as well as his ground pound when he's directly above you. Bowser is too heavy for uair to be a good KO move here, so don't worry about staling it, and just focus on using it to rack up damage, punish mistakes, and defend against his aerials.
Some Bowsers might attempt to approach you with fire breath, so keep this in mind. Punish it with a bomb if the opponent does this.

Punishes​

Bowser thrives off of punishing opponents. However, almost all of Bowser's moves are very punishable, so this goes both ways in this match-up. Overall, the match-up very heavily revolves around punishing.
Carefully space with zair if you're forced to get close if grabbing is too risky. Avoid using laggy moves and don't be wreckless, or you will get punished. As mentioned before, Bowser's moves are very punishable, so keep this in mind and look for opportunities to punish a missed move. His upb on the ground is an exception, and is often used out of shield, so watch out for it.
Be very careful about using your shield. A lot of his moves, mainly his ground pound and fsmash, can easily break your shield, leaving you open to get KO'd by a fully-charged fsmash. Even when you aren't shielding to protect yourself against a move that can break your shield, shielding too much can be problematic since it leaves you open to being grabbed, which is especially bad here because of Bowser's good throws.

Off-stage​

Be very careful trying to recover when off-stage. A good Bowser will be willing to go far off-stage to gimp you. His fair and bair are his main gimping moves. Some Bowsers might also attempt to gimp you with dair, which has a crazy hitbox. Don't stay on the ledge too long when you get on it, since his dtilt can send you flying off-stage again. Rolling from the ledge can get you usmashed, so don't roll from it.
Your fair is great against Bowser when he's off-stage, so if Bowser tries to fair you and misses you can punish him with your fair. Toon Link's fair also beats Bowser's upb. Overall, your fair is great for gimping him.

Stages​

Fortunately, this shouldn't be a difficult match-up even on stages that are normally bad for Toon Link, and different stages will come with their own advantages here.
On large stages
Large stages are great for camping Bowser, so take full advantage of that and camp him as much as possible.

On small stages​

Camping Bowser will be more difficult here, so use your projectiles to get him into a position where you can grab him then throw him into the air.

On stages with platforms​

Get him into the air and on a platform so you can shark the crap out of him. Just make sure you don't get sharked yourself, especially on platforms low enough where Bowser can reach them with his ground moves.

Miscellaneous​

Your Hylian shield can protect very well against Bowser's fire breath.

Also, does anyone have any idea how to fix this spoiler glitch? I've asked around a ton about it and haven't gotten anything. I've spent hours trying to figure out how to fix it, and haven't been able to come up with anything. It seems to only get worse every time I try to fix it. I'm typing it as (without spaces) [ spoiler ] and [ / spoiler ], and not typing any extras, so I can't figure out what the problem could be.
Edit: I think I finally managed to fix it after playing around a ton. This issue is still annoying, though, so I would appreciate it if anyone had any ideas on how to fix or prevent it.

 

[stripheR]

i really hate fighting heavies...

 

[Deleted member]

No other match-up guides for Bowser? Guess I'll have to go with mine, then... I really would've prefered not to, but oh well. Anyway, it's week 3 now. Since Diddy is pretty popular right now, hopefully we can get more stuff at least for him. As for the match-up chart and info on Bowser Jr., I'll fix all that stuff up after I've gotten some sleep, whenever that happens.

 

[Fangblade]

Are we doing Dark Pit along w/ Pit this week?
There's only a few difference w/o going deep into frame-data and stuff, such as their KB trajectory, speed vs. strength, and their Nspecials(Bows).

 

[Deleted member]

Are we doing Dark Pit along w/ Pit this week?
There's only a few difference w/o going deep into frame-data and stuff, such as their KB trajectory, speed vs. strength, and their Nspecials(Bows).

We're already trying to juggle four characters, so five at once would be a bit much even if Dark Pit is a Pit clone. Discussing Pit now would make things a bit disorganized, too. So yeah, we'll discuss Pit when we get there.

 

[Fangblade]

Cpt. Falcon, 60:40 - He lacks projectiles so a large part of this match is going to be spent running away from him and spamming 'rang and bombs when you can. A lot of his attacks are kinda slow, and his hitboxes aren't disjointed, so shielding his moves and punishing OoS works really well. I think the most important thing about fighting a CF is keeping up the pressure, so that he doesn't get stage control. CF doesn't have very good OoS options, the only viable ones being grab and jab. Since TL is so small proper spacing w/ zairs will do you a lot of good. He's actually pretty quick so if you're too committed to camping near a ledge you need to watch out for his Dash grab, as camping can be very predictable. Your own Jab is going to be key in getting him out of your face... In the air I think his Aerials beat out TL's so to avoid being juggled you should stay grounded. A good CF will be attempting to bait laggy moves from you, or even an airdodge offtsage. CF can bait airdodges and Fair you for an early kill. He is also able to spike you with Dair if you're hanging on the ledge w/ no invincibility frames, off the ground is generally a bad place to be in this matchup. If a CF is rolling/jumping around he's probably trying to figure out what you're doing next.

 

[PSIBoy]

Heck, I'm a Dark Pit main and I don't know where to start on this one! Never gone up against TL/DP as the other, so I'm using limited knowledge. Okay, so Dark Pit suffers from lack of KO moves, like TL. His bow is longer reached and can be fired quicker than TL arrows, but I believe they can be blocked by the shield. Up close, DP's f-tilt is powerful, but has ending lag, same with all his smashes as well. His grab game is good, he'll mainly try to get you up into the air where he can use one of his multi-hit moves. Jab also is multi-hit and has some ending lag. Overall, his close-up game is powerful, but laggy, kind of like TL (except for jab and u-tilt). In the air, DP can spike you with d-air, slice you up with f-air, n-air, or u-air while b-air can KO at 120% if sweet spotted. Rely on z-air and short hop n-air for aerial combat. Not sure on ratio though.

I don't have enough experience with Diddy though.

 

[Buddy002]

I'm a Captain Falcon main along with a Toon Link main... I am pretty familiar with this MU. As people have said before, camp him out. Don't let him get near you. If he does, DON'T let him get the grab. At very early percents he can fthrow to dash attack to uair and possibly another uair. Most of his combos come from the grab game. Another lethal combo of his is falling uair to knee. I'm not sure what percentages it works on TL, I will look into it later. Use zair lots against Falcons. Our boomerang is also a great spacing tool, he has nothing to beat it. So overall, the main idea is to out camp/space him, and don't give him the grab. He will punish you. I would say this matchup is 55-45 in Toon Link's favor

 

[Deleted member]

So I've been playing a bunch of Charizards lately, and overall Charizard seems like a better Bowser (at least when you're playing as TL, anyway). Very difficult to combo, harder to kill (i've tried using fresh bthrow at the edge of FD at 190% and even that wouldn't kill him), harder to gimp than Bowser (better aerials, better recovery, floatier, flare blitz), has an easier time killing you, his aerials completely destroy yours and have disjointed hitboxes, a lot of his attacks are crazy fast, follow-ups from zair are hard to pull off because of Charizard's fast moves (especially his grab), your Hylian shield doesn't protect against his fire breath, etc. I think this match-up seems really hard for TL, and is definitely in Charizard's favor.

Though, I might be getting a bad view of the match-up. All the Charizards I've played have only had the 3DS version, where the lack of a cstick makes fsmashes (which is very, very easy to land the second hit against Charizard), running usmashes, and slingshot moves (seriously, pray this doesn't get patched, because we're going to really need slingshot moves here) much more difficult to pull off, and those all seem very important in this match-up.

Also, imo, Battlefield >>>>> Yoshi's Island against Charizard. The walls on Yoshi's make it easier for Charizard to recover while the shape of the bottom of Battlefield can mess Charizard up if he's not careful, his fire breath is much more annoying on Yoshi's, the platform in the middle can make it super easy for Charizard to shark you, etc. Obviously, FD is better than BF or YI, so if you can go there then do it.

So yeah, this is all I've been able to figure out. Hopefully some other people have more to add, because we don't have enough info on Charizard. Having lots of info is especially important here since this match-up doesn't look good.

 

[Fangblade]

Heck, I'm a Dark Pit main and I don't know where to start on this one! Never gone up against TL/DP as the other, so I'm using limited knowledge. Okay, so Dark Pit suffers from lack of KO moves, like TL. His bow is longer reached and can be fired quicker than TL arrows, but I believe they can be blocked by the shield. Up close, DP's f-tilt is powerful, but has ending lag, same with all his smashes as well. His grab game is good, he'll mainly try to get you up into the air where he can use one of his multi-hit moves. Jab also is multi-hit and has some ending lag. Overall, his close-up game is powerful, but laggy, kind of like TL (except for jab and u-tilt). In the air, DP can spike you with d-air, slice you up with f-air, n-air, or u-air while b-air can KO at 120% if sweet spotted. Rely on z-air and short hop n-air for aerial combat. Not sure on ratio though.

I don't have enough experience with Diddy though.

DP seems to have a lot of similar traits as TL, would you agree? Their projectiles and smashes are similar.
I would say he has a better time juggling opponents in the air, since his Aerials don't all have high KB like us.

 

[PSIBoy]

DP seems to have a lot of similar traits as TL, would you agree? Their projectiles and smashes are similar.
I would say he has a better time juggling opponents in the air, since his Aerials don't all have high KB like us.

Except for the fact that TL is more versatile at his camping (long range, long-medium range, and short range mix-ups compared to just long range but faster than other's long range), I'd agree. Many of their ground attacks do have a lot of ending lag while he may have an easier time safely grabbing due to not ridiculous ending lag in his grab if it misses. DP aerials are largely geared toward damage (except for two) while TL's only really aerial reliable for damage is n-air.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Charizard
Pros:
- Camping works here.
- He doesn't have much defense against zair or bair.
- Your moves are much faster than his.
Cons:
- His flamethrower out-prioritizes arrows and the boomerang.
- Utilt doesn't work very well on him, unlike other heavy-weights.
- Your Hylian shield doesn't work against flamethrower.
Strategy:
Camp. Zair if he comes close to you, and feel free to punish his mistakes with bair."

While I think you are right for the most part, just gonna' add on some tid bits.

Charizard's Flamethrower also has a wind effect as long as the fire come in contact with a burnable object (other character, items, shield etc. ) With that being said, you can still kinda pressure him with bombs, but it's important to keep in mind that the wind effect will push away your bombs. Assuming you're directly above him, It's probably better to use pressure Charizard by throwing bombs down on top of his head. You can still do this horizontally, as long as you keep the Flamethrower thing in mind.

An experienced Charizard is going to stay grounded most of the time and dash at you, looking to get in a grab/Nair to follow up from, shielding all of your projectiles (including Zair) in the process. It's also important to know: Under any circumstances, you DO NOT want to get hit by Rock Smash. You can shield it, sure, but it's going to take a very large chunk out of your shield. If the first Rock Smash doesn't break your shield, the second one will.

Charizards will also make efficient use of their multiple jumps to pressure you. Be wary of his Nair, as it does autocancel around the height of a full hop and it has a long....and rather somewhat awkward hitbox to it. Flamethrower is pretty much his bread and butter, and will use the range of this move to cover landings.

Be sure to cover your own landings as well. When you land, you should have a bomb in your hand and should throw it in Charizard's direction, Especially at around 100%. Why? To buy the life insurance that you're not going to get 1HKO'd from Flare Blitz.

Charizard combo TL in the air, almost about as well as TL combo's like...everybody with smart use of his artillery. The #1 thing you absolutely need to watch out for is being offstage vs Charizard.

Much like facing any other character with multiple jumps, this is probably the last place on Earth you'll want to be. While Toon Link isn't completely defensely offstage, Charizard has no issue being a master edge guarder. His Bair will cause major problems if it connects, and if it hits the sweet spot (tip of his tail); It's very likely that you're going to die, so be cautious when making your way back to the stage. Much like Link, Toon Link should also be carrying bombs with him nearly everywhere he goes. That explosion of the bomb offstage (as I'm sure you guys know) will aid him in his recovery offstage, to avoid any kind of early deaths.

Hope this helps, yo

 

[Fangblade]

Well we definitely should be doing Pit & Dark Pit at the same time. They're similar enough that their General Discussion and Match-up threads are merged into 1 thread. I'll include some key difference between the two later.
Bows:
Pit - Has a lot more control over the path of his arrows, and can snipe you out wherever you are.
DP - Can influence his arrows a bit, but will have to work for a snipe because they shoot horizontally. His arrows also do more damage charged, and have shorter range, though don't need as much since they only fire horizontally.

Side Special:
Pit - Sends enemies almsot vertically.
Dark pit - Sends enemies in a Diagonal-Up direction, which works a lot better on recovering opponents.

It's worth mentioning that Pit has a much stronger Ftilt than DP.
It is possible for the sweetspot at the tip of the Scissor swords to KO us @ 134%+, for both pits, near the edge.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well we definitely should be doing Pit & Dark Pit at the same time. They're similar enough that their General Discussion and Match-up threads are merged into 1 thread. I'll include some key difference between the two later.

It's not "key" differences, it's "only" differences.

Pit's arrows can hit you wherever you are, but Dark Pit's hit slightly harder.
Pit's Fspecial knocks the opponent straight up for consistent KOs on FDs and much quicker ones on stages with platforms, but Dark Pit's can KO faster and is a very powerful edgeguarding tool.
Unless we're discussing Final Smashes, the only remaining difference is their Ftilt. Pit's can KO at higher %s, Dark Pit's is supposed to be for comboing.

I'd love to discuss the actual matchup, but I have stuff to do and little experience with it anyway. But this would probably be one of the few times choosing one Pit over the other is basically up to the player.

 

[CHOMPY]

I've had plenty of Toon Link matchup experience against a fellow Toon Link player I play frequently. Let me give you the run down on how the matchup goes.




-When Toon Link performs his Z-air, Pit can actually shield grab.
-Pit can zone Toon Link by tossing out empty nairs and fairs until Toon eventually gets close enough
-Don't bother challenging his dair with your uair, since dair has more priority. Meaning it will hit first
-Retreating nairs can be frustrating for Toon Link, especially when you can actually catch the bombs and use it against Toon Link.
-Since Toon Link has a hard time edgeguarding in general, you can actually drop under the led
-Pits arrows are not meant to hit Toon Link when hes on stage, especially with the projectiles that get in the way a lot of time.
-Watch out for Toon Links utilt at early percentage
-Since Toon Link is a light character, Pit in rage mode can really kill Toon Link as early as 80% from either a usmash or fsmash. Otherwise, it would kill at 110% or higher.
-Don't bother using the guardian orbitars, since they don't reflect back at Toon Link
-Once Pit has him off stage,
-Putting up your shield against all the projectiles won't really do you much good because he can grab you.



-I've seen him use bair out of shield a lot of times, and that seems to really get Pit.
-Every once a while, he tends to throw out a up b out of shield, just to relieve the pressure and Toon Link and jump away after that.
-Tossing out the projectiles all at once can really overwhelm Pit at times when Pit is trying to approach.
-Boomerang has got to the most annoying projectile to deal with. Just when you grabbed Toon Link, the boomerang will come back and hit Pit.
-Toon Link's usmash (DACUS) can actually kill Pit at around 110% (I believe)
-The moves I never see Toon Link use are dair, fsmash twice, and uair.
-Seeing as though Toon Link takes a while to pull out his bomb (if I'm close enough) gives me enough time to be able to hit him before he pulls it out.

What the matchup winds down to is who is the more patient player. Generally, Toon Link has a harder time when hes close up. Most of the time, matches tend to go down to time. Toon Link really shines on Omega and FD stages, due to the amount of breathing room he's got. However, if you take him to a take with platforms, or smaller stages like battlefield, castle siege (due to the statues), or stages that have slopes, Toon Link I feel would have a hard time with that. Both characters have a hard time killing, so most likely, they'll pick the stages that have smaller blast zone ceilings and sides.

I would say its 50:50. Depending on the player and how well versed they know the matchup.

 

[Karaoke Man]

It's not "key" differences, it's "only" differences.

Pit's arrows can hit you wherever you are, but Dark Pit's hit slightly harder.
Pit's Fspecial knocks the opponent straight up for consistent KOs on FDs and much quicker ones on stages with platforms, but Dark Pit's can KO faster and is a very powerful edgeguarding tool.
Unless we're discussing Final Smashes, the only remaining difference is their Ftilt. Pit's can KO at higher %s, Dark Pit's is supposed to be for comboing.

I'd love to discuss the actual matchup, but I have stuff to do and little experience with it anyway. But this would probably be one of the few times choosing one Pit over the other is basically up to the player.

It may look as though they are the same character, but there are a few (at the very least) noticable differences between the two characters.

• Dark Pit's attacks (jabs, tilts aerials, smashes) have less knockback than Pit's. Likely due to the fact that in, Kid Icarus: Uprising, the Silver Bow isn't phyisically as strong as Palutena's Bow (the one you see that Pit wields). This implies that Dark Pit is more combo-oriented than Pit since its easier to string combos together due to low knockback. While Pit is more about combo'ing in conjunction with his arrows, which can keep up with the higher knockback on his attacks.
  
  
• In terms of movement, Dark Pit is actually slightly slower and heavier than Pit. Probably due to the fact that the Electroshock Arm is much heavier than the Upperdash Arm.
  
  
• Pit's arrows have very flexible maneuverability making them a great tool for following up on combos (and other things like sniping), since his attacks do more damage in comparison to Dark Pit's. Meanwhile, Dark Pit's arrows can go straight, but are much more straightforward and have slightly more hitstun and knockback as you said. However, this doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Something like this has to be used to bait airdodges and punishing landings.
  
  
• The Electroshock Arm can kiiinda string together with itself at low percents in the air, due to the trajectory it sends you in comparison to the Upperdash Arm. On the ground, they are both lethal in their own right. You should treat this move almost as if you're dealing with Captain Falcon's Raptor boost.
  
  
• The Guardian Orbitors that Dark Pit wields aren't as Sturdy as Pit's, and they break more easily I find. However, I'm sure there's something else to this....I just don't know what it is yet. lol
  
  
• Overall, Pit is more design to juggle opponents in the air. Dark Pit kiiinda of does the same thing, but is likely to be a bit more ground based. I'm guessing this is the ironic joke of a "fallen angel"? lol
  
  
  Differences
  
  they are cool, but they are there

 

[Deleted member]

If there's even any debate about there being tons of differences between Dark Pit and Pit then I think that's just more reason their discussion should be kept separate. Besides, by the time we get to Pit we might have learned more about dealing with him or even both of them, so we should hold off on discussing Pit until we get there.

Also, as for TL's uair beating Falcon's dair, I tried it a bunch in matches recently and it seems to always beat his dair. Our dair also seems to be pretty good for punishing CFs that are too aggressive with uair. With CF's juggling and combo ability being hurt by TL's dair, boomerang, and bombs, along with TL being able to juggle the crap out of CF, camp him and slow him down with projectiles, and other stuff I'm forgetting, the match-up seems to be at least slightly in TL's favor. I'd say it's at least 55:45.

 

[LancerStaff]

It may look as though they are the same character, but there are a few (at the very least) noticable differences between the two characters.

• Dark Pit's attacks (jabs, tilts aerials, smashes) have less knockback than Pit's. Likely due to the fact that in, Kid Icarus: Uprising, the Silver Bow isn't phyisically as strong as Palutena's Bow (the one you see that Pit wields). This implies that Dark Pit is more combo-oriented than Pit since its easier to string combos together due to low knockback. While Pit is more about combo'ing in conjunction with his arrows, which can keep up with the higher knockback on his attacks.
  
  
• In terms of movement, Dark Pit is actually slightly slower and heavier than Pit. Probably due to the fact that the Electroshock Arm is much heavier than the Upperdash Arm.
  
  
• Pit's arrows have very flexible maneuverability making them a great tool for following up on combos (and other things like sniping), since his attacks do more damage in comparison to Dark Pit's. Meanwhile, Dark Pit's arrows can go straight, but are much more straightforward and have slightly more hitstun and knockback as you said. However, this doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Something like this has to be used to bait airdodges and punishing landings.
  
  
• The Electroshock Arm can kiiinda string together with itself at low percents in the air, due to the trajectory it sends you in comparison to the Upperdash Arm. On the ground, they are both lethal in their own right. You should treat this move almost as if you're dealing with Captain Falcon's Raptor boost.
  
  
• The Guardian Orbitors that Dark Pit wields aren't as Sturdy as Pit's, and they break more easily I find. However, I'm sure there's something else to this....I just don't know what it is yet. lol
  
  
• Overall, Pit is more design to juggle opponents in the air. Dark Pit kiiinda of does the same thing, but is likely to be a bit more ground based. I'm guessing this is the ironic joke of a "fallen angel"? lol
  
  
  Differences
  
  they are cool, but they are there

This is simply false. Their speed for every aspect is the same, bust out the Wavebirds if you don't believe me. Weight is also the same, and the weight rankings in the competitive subforum agree. Dspecial hasn't been put under the microscope, but the differences are minor, at best. Knockback is exactly the same for every move I haven't mentioned. Here, test it yourself: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...nd-technique-guide-all-important-ko-s.372354/ This is my moveset guide. The KO%s are against a CPU Mario standing still in either the center or side of FD, all of which have exactly the same blastzones I might add. Please note that the %s shown are the lowest I could get a KO off of Mario because he DIs slightly, and that this was done on the 3DS version. The Wii U version has smaller blastzones.

It's been a well established fact that the two are almost exactly the same for weeks now, since a week before SSB3D's release, in fact. The wikis are largely incorrect and just going off of gut feels. This has been cold, hard fact for a long time now.