Toon Link Inquiry Thread (Ask a question, get an answer)

[TLMSheikant]

Theorymoning. What exactly are marth's options against toon link emblem lord?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Exactly.

They don't seem to face each other in tourney often, so in cases like that we need to go with the baseline of looking at their tools.

If all TL can do is spam projectiles to create walls then he is in serious trouble. Marth has plenty of ways to deal with that. Projectiles simply aren't enough especially since TL's can be jabbed or caught.

And maybe he goes MK because MK has a better match vs TL and he wants to have an easier time? Also, I'm pretty sure Santi gives Marth the nod in the match-up. Still personal experience be ****ed. We are going by what each character can and cannot do. TL doesn't have enough to give him the advantage.

Marth's options: Boomerangs and arrows can be swatted, shielded or dodged with ease. Normally a projectile game is used to push an enemy where you want them to be. But Marth's speed lets him get past that wall better then most. Marth certainly has the better ground game. TL's ground game is passable, but Marth's is superb. Marth has safer ground moves and safer aerials. At close range, Marth takes it home. TL has nothing really at this range other then universal options like rolling which is pretty easy to bait. Not even talking strategy here. Marth can throw out something he doesn't even commit to like a d-tilt to force a roll then punish. Tink can shield and then maybe jump from shield and retreating Zair, but that's about it. Also Tink's roll is slow making it even worse for getting out of bad situations. All he can really do is try to keep Marth at bay, but he doesn't actually control the match as well as Marth does when he gets in.

 

[Lobos]

NJ has good marth mains?

Anyways this should be discussed in the match up thread. lol

 

[TheJerm]

Well, he actually used marth on me in tournament before, and played his marth against me in friendlies. I win against his marth, but his MK wrecked me.. (but I wont let that happen again xD). Anyways, we are looking at different perspectives then. I'm going by TL's fighting marths. Not what each character has statistically .

 

[Emblem Lord]

The inherent problem with this is simple. The Marth or the TL might be doing something dumb or not abusing an ability or trait that could change the match.

Lobos: Haha. Aren't you cute.

 

[TheJerm]

I'll post in the match up thread..

 

[Barge]

Wow, lots of new pages.

 

[Esca]

Trolltroll Troll

 

[Santi]

Marth's Jab can pwn like every projectile we have
it saddens me

 

[Sosuke]

Lobos is indeed cute. ^_^

Okay, with Marth, you have to play defensive, just as you would Meta Knight. If you approach, you're vulnerable to pain of all sorts as he is by far one of the best defensively characters in the game, theoretically surpassing Snake in this regard.

Arrows are distractions, but a good Marth will have absolutely no problem with them. They will simply powershield them in his attempt to drive through your projectile wall, and then get you at close-mid range and close range, where he will try to **** and destroy you.

Instead, bombs with boomerang (especially angled down to reflect back by the stage) is strongly recommended. The boomerang can be destroyed by his sword, but that makes it so you can use it again immediately. By angling it down, you force him to either hit the boomerang early, shield it, or just past it and approach, only to worry of it later. Options 1 and 2 allow you to get the boomerang back and is mostly resetting the situation. Option 3 is unfavorable for any character, but may occasionally be taken.

Bombs should be set up in a way that limits Marth's options. Throwing a bomb up to delay its fall, and then keeping one in hand to throw toward him works well as a projectile wall with arrow cancels from shorthopped bomb throws being distractions. So from a shorthop, you can throw a bomb toward him, or above as a delay, and then go into a boomerang, or a lag canceled arrow. Personally, two bombs high up, one perhaps thrown with a medium strength (tilt + A), and another strong (C-stick/Smash) can lead to variations in their fall speed, along with the boomerang and a few lagless arrows, creates one of the better projectile walls Toon Link can conjure up.

This will force Marth to approach, but also have a difficult time approaching. These set-ups work brilliantly on stages with decent running room, such as Final Destination and Pokemon Stadium, as good Marths will indeed run through your projectile wall, and force you to reset it, and you'll need all the room you can get.

IF you get cornered to the edge, you're in trouble. Marth has frame traps and lightning quick moves. His Dtilt can force a reaction, and 4/5 times, he can punish that reaction due to the IASA frames of Dtilt (our Dtilt isn't long-ranged enough to be that cool guys, =/). His Dancing Blade beats your jab combo, which is your fastest move on the ground. If you're cornered, get out. Double jump with a bomb in hand and force some room to get back into the middle of the stage, and try to make him the one near the edges. It is absolutely necessary to control the middle of the stage, as that's all the control you will get.

If you need to fan him away and cannot get a projectile in, you can do an autocanceled Zair.

You can try to make a fake approach, then DI back into a retreating Zair, or just jump back and Zair. It lingers and can throw off a Marth that gets too aggressive.

Now as for how you can kill him, you'll need him to be hit by a bomb or boomerang and then set-up to a kill move (Usmash/Fair for instance) or use a move like Nair to edgeguard him. His recovery is linear, and can be easily gimped if you're patient. Use arrows to slow down his aerial speed toward the ledge, not bombs or boomerang since he can force a DI closer to the stage that way if he's smart. From there, stand close to the edge and ready for a speed hug (run off ledge, fastfall + DI into ledge). If you need to regain invincibility frames, limit it to 1, and only use it near the end of the initial ones. Dolphin Slash comes out fast, and even the weak area that barely phases you can stagespike you cold.

As for juggling, he's floaty, and therefore Utilt traps end very early. Bair can rack up damage. But if you're at a high percent do not attempt, as he will Dolphin Slash it and you will probably die. If both of you are at low percents, he will likely take it since the knockback of DS won't stun you enough to benefit him.

Killing Marth up top is easiest though, it just needs some traps and wits. At higher percents (past 100), you can very well start to kill him off. Utilt or Usmash, if they don't outright kill him, can set up to a baiting trap.

What you do here is force an AIRDODGE. Marth is weak below him since his Dair sucks. Use bombs thrown up, or a boomerang from a jump angled upward to force an airdodge, or maybe even a Bair (yes, it hits on the top a bit, don't do it near him since he can Counter you that way; Counter won't reach his bottom though). You can also try to do Zair -> grab, but that won't work if you used Zair's optimal distance. You'll have to get into him closer with Zair, and that can be risky (the follow-up might not even be guaranteed that way either). From there, you can do Dthrow, or Uthrow. Uthrow offers more vertical distance so the trap has a high success rate, but Dthrow sends them lower, so if they mess up and airdodge the throw, you can end the trap there with Uair as the airdodge ends, forcing a relatively early stock off of them.

However, you usually have to follow the airdodge, and do Uair. A weak Uair is the lingering hitbox, and kills later. If you can force an airdodge and activate Uair around the moment where the airdodge ends, you'll get the strong WTF broken one that kills him around 80-90% assuming the move is undiminished and it was set-off by a baiting trap.

If you didn't already know, Zair outranges all of Marth's aerials, but your other aerials don't compare, where his can kill safely. So let's go with what you shouldn't do:

- Up+B offensively (grounded can get shielded and Dolphin Slashed/or DI'd out of and Dolphin Slashed; aerial can be DI'd out of, possibly to a tipped Uair which may kill you early consider the vertical distance you sent yourself in at 90+ percents).
- Any tilts other than Utilt (His tilts are amazing, not MK amazing, but overshadow yours and outrange them). You can do a mid-range Dtilt to try to bait them into thinking you're vulnerable, but for all intents and purposes, stick to Utilt, and even that will be sparingly used.
- Try to combo him. Yeah, he's floaty enough that he can get out of a lot of Zair set-ups, or Fair you while you try to follow up with a sword attack. Stick to retreating zairs or those to bombs. You can try the VietG combo, or Zair -> Nair at low percents, but past 30%, it's VERY DI'able, and you're taking a larger risk than you'd gain in reward.
- Try to fight him close up. No, you'll lose. Dancing Blade beats out all of your ground attacks, Dolphin Slash stuffs everything, and your sword even in the air is no match unless you're below him.
- * Fsmash. He can jump away or Dolphin Slash between hits if you're not quick enough. Combined with DI where he is too high to do a second slash immediately, makes this kill move very hard to land.

* - Risky, but can work. It is usually equal risk-reward so it's considered neutral standing.

Also note that Marth has a similar advantage to you, and can exploit you similarly. Marth has a juggle trap with his Uair, and can kill, as well as just rack up damage on you by baiting airdodges. The juggle trap can end with Utilt or Usmash if they force you to try to avoid a Uair near the ground/bait you into an airdodge in other ways. You have a better Dair, but they will likely keep an eye on it and airdodge that, then punish you with Dancing Blade or whatever.

Marth does well on all the stages you do well on, so there's not anything you should explicitly ban except maybe Battlefield (and you can use that to your advantage too). He may ban Rainbow Cruise or FD if it's just a general dislike, but for the most part, there's no strategic reason to ban anything on both player sides. It will be general preference.

Comment/add/criticize/correct/whatever please.

Thats Viet's (OLD) summary of the match up.
Maybe you guys can use it as somewhat of a reference?


And I think its probably better not to bump the old Marth discussion thread cuz its so... old. >_>;
But if Viet makes a new one, that should be fine. *asks him to* <_<

 

[TheJerm]

Oops, already bumped. xD

 

[earla]

this is a general question. whats the most effective way to escape a grab? which method of mashing gets you out of grabs fastest ?

 

[Lobos]

I like to mash all my buttons and rotate the control stick.

New question why am I so cute?

 

[Sosuke]

Because you don't play better marths

 

[Santi]

LMAO
IM glad I read the other thread first so I could get this

 

[demonictoonlink]

Is it weird if my **** glows?

Also... Everyone knows the Zair to Nair combo. Is it possible to do Zair to Bair? I can kinda do it, but it takes me like .25 seconds to RAR... Is there a better way?

 

[DallasPhat]

OOPs, UH wrong thread LOL.

 

[mikeHAZE]

I fought Junk and mikeHAZE.

Just friendlies. >_>
I still think its almost even.

sorry if i'm being a ****, but money match me and i'll guarantee you'll get 3 stocked at least once. i'm tired of you thinking friendlies even remotely reflect upon a persons skill.

 

[Sosuke]

Thats why I said it was friendlies.
And despite that, I still think its almost even.

 

[mikeHAZE]

no, you're saying that based off of friendlies you think the matchup is even.

 

[TheJerm]

I think the match up is even.. based of MM's, friendlies, and tournament. MM me again mikehaze =]

 

[mikeHAZE]

for sure, you going to genesis?

you should try to make evo too haha.

 

[Sosuke]

I was just answering Viet's question.

I was getting the feeling that he was like "Would you still think it was even after playing these guys?". And I happen to actually play two of those people, so I said I did.
I wasn't intimidated enough by the names to change my thoughts on the match up because of just that.

 

[TheJerm]

Lol, I'm going to genesis. But high chance not evo xD

 

[mikeHAZE]

I was just answering Viet's question.

I was getting the feeling that he was like "Would you still think it was even after playing these guys?". And I happen to actually play two of those people, so I said I did.
I wasn't intimidated enough by the names to change my thoughts on the match up because of just that.

but you're still basing it off of friendlies which is ********. i mean, if you think me chasing you off the edge trying to spike you 20 times is me trying to my fullest, then so viet.

haha...

 

[PhatyCHONG]

Toon Link GLIDE TOSSING!?!?!?
Recently I've been trying to improve my Toon, where today I was watching TL videos to try to find new ideas on approaching and other strategys for matchup play when I came across this video on youtube of JERM [TL] vs. Ultimate Razer [Snake] Where at 0:48-0:49 and 0:57-0:58TL Glide Tossed?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKKPdq4hCVs

I investagate on "SMASH WIKI" thread "Glide Tossing" where it say quote: [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Glide_Toss]

The following characters have the ABILITY TO CREATE AN ITEM that they can use to perform a Glide Toss:

* Zero Suit Samus: Power Suit Pieces, created on start/transformation.
* Snake: Hand Grenades, created by his Standard Special.
* Peach: Vegetables, created by Down Special.
* Diddy Kong: Banana Peels, created by Down Special.
* Wario: Wheels, created by destroying Wario Bike (created by Side Special).
* R.O.B.: Gyros, created by Down Special.

I don't see Toon Link being able to glide toss where he can most certainly produce an item????

 

[TheJerm]

Eww, dont watch that vid of me.. I did bad that day xD. Anyways, what I did was a jump cancel throw. Its awesome =]

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, It's probably best that I tell you now before you get flamed at. That's not a Glide Toss, it's a JC throw (Jump Cancel Throw). Thanks for trying to help though.
Edit: 2 minutes late, thanks Jerm.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Jerm, whats a jump cancelled throw?



(ps i might start playing tl as a secondary since nobody in socal plays him )

 

[PhantomX]

If you jump and immediately input a throw with a bomb in your hand you do some weird slide thing, lol.

 

[mikeHAZE]

cool, i'll call it phantom dashing.

 

[Alzi]

You just press your jump button and A sorta the same time then hit the control stick in the opposite direction.

Best name for it is mindgames.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's all in my thread.

 

[mikeHAZE]

i dont use threads i only use cotton sorry

 

[Zeus.]

What is the best way to DI with Toon Link when you get hit horizontally? How about vertically?

 

[TheJerm]

Adjacent to wherever you are hit. Using bair.

 

[Zeus.]

Okay, thanks!

 

[Nyjin]

What's it called when you're running with TL off the edge, but right before you hit the edge you use your UP-b, cancelling the entire move and just falling off as if nothing happened?

I was doing it, was bored and curious, so came here.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Maybe I should just make my sig, 'It's all in my Thread' then just refer to it whenever I need it.
But to answer your question it's called a Spin Attack Fall Cancel. It's in my AT thread, in the Swordplay section, in the Up-B AT's. You can do much more then just cancel it and fall of doing nothing, it's all....(ah forget it).

 

[Artmastercorey]

Pats fox on the back