Too much gsp decrease per loss

[meleebrawler]

Elite should be a separate mode (would love it to differentiate for team and 1v1 with static 3 stock 7 min no items). The GSP rank can still be used for ranked matches (toggle) but matches that are not on 3 stock 7 min no items or are not a match for 1v1 vs team Preferred toggle do not count (are automatically unranked).

Team Attack on or off? Off isn't very competitive due to abusive tactics exploiting teammate immunity, but on leads to a giant can of worms having to police team-killing. How does the game know someone is intentionally doing that, or that person (or even the one getting team-killed) is just clumsy and/or not paying attention? You could be banned just for not being good at the game. Not to mention the inconsistencies of characters picked by others possibly causing poor synergy in your team. At least arenas let you judge such things yourself.

And for both modes, which stages and how do you go about selecting them? Even if it's the most conservative with just Battlefield and Final Destination, someone is going to cry foul if the game randomly picks a stage they feel puts them at a disadvantage, no matter how slight. Only way for that to be fair is to do best of three matches where players take turns picking... but that increases the chances of something interrupting the connection for any reason.

 

[TheDuke54]

I never said that. And I really don't care at this point either. I barely touch Smash online as it is now.

 

[Sucumbio]

Team Attack on or off? Off isn't very competitive due to abusive tactics exploiting teammate immunity, but on leads to a giant can of worms having to police team-killing. How does the game know someone is intentionally doing that, or that person (or even the one getting team-killed) is just clumsy and/or not paying attention? You could be banned just for not being good at the game. Not to mention the inconsistencies of characters picked by others possibly causing poor synergy in your team. At least arenas let you judge such things yourself.

And for both modes, which stages and how do you go about selecting them? Even if it's the most conservative with just Battlefield and Final Destination, someone is going to cry foul if the game randomly picks a stage they feel puts them at a disadvantage, no matter how slight. Only way for that to be fair is to do best of three matches where players take turns picking... but that increases the chances of something interrupting the connection for any reason.

I purposefully left out stage because it actually works for the most part if in preferred rules like I used to have bf fd and sv only in previous games. Yes there's still occasionally stage jank but I think it's far less impacting on GSP and I've long been a supporter of broadening stage choices in the meta but that's off topic.

I actually didn't think about team attack. For every smash online game it's off. Doesn't need to be changed imo. And since we're still not changing characters between fights only that teams are randomized between 4 chr if it's all disadvantages drop.

 

[nshoes]

Man, climbing the GSP ladder has been weird. My lowest was 90k. I'm at 3.4 million now, it's been a long couple of months. What's super weird is the people I was facing in the mid 1 millions were good. I think it's because better players may be on a losing streak and you end up playing them. 2 million and up has been a breeze, it was honestly easier than getting into the millions. Having much higher quality matches now, they are enjoyable.

I think it's interesting how the different skill levels are distributed throughout the GSP band. Anyone else get out of the sub 100k? If not, keep on keeping on! You'll get it.

 

[ZaTank]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but my personal theory is that those are the beginning of good players who don't use dump netplay strats and play a bit more honest, but are still beaten by the aforementioned strats.

 

[nshoes]

Ah, that would line up with what I am experiencing.

 

[Glerma]

Dump netplay strats?

 

[Ir0n Ch3f]

Dump netplay strats?

Like approaching exclusively with dash attack as DK, and me getting hit by it every. single. time.

Each time I fall for the netplay cheese I am reminded that Im the reason why these payers think these strats are viable.

 

[Glerma]

Ah, the BS stuff, got it. Thank you!

 

[nshoes]

Like approaching exclusively with dash attack as DK, and me getting hit by it every. single. time.

Each time I fall for the netplay cheese I am reminded that Im the reason why these payers think these strats are viable.

Yeah it's pretty wild lol Some of the lower GSP games (sub ~2 million) were pretty hard because people do some WHACKY stuff. Now each game is full of YL arrows from the edge of the stage and Mario dash grabs, over and over.

 

[fairyghost]

i dropped down to ~60k GSP with Meta Knight when i first used him online. he was completely new to me and i sucked, but i was determined to get good with him. it was a long, painful journey (when your GSP is very low you barely gain ANY for winning so i was stuck for a long time) but eventually i brought him up to 1 million (now 3 million after i've improved). all the grinding was tiring but it helped me get familiar with my character and learn more about the game. getting to at least 100k GSP was the hardest part, but from there it's much easier to climb.

somehow, around the lowest GSP was where i almost never got item matches/jank rulesets, just 1v1s.

 

[FartyParty]

I climbed from less than 100K on Lucina in mid-December and reached 3 mil on Feb 2nd (that put me in the top ~20% GSP at the time), and have reached a high of 4.2 mil since then.

At the time when I first hit over 3 mil, my experience was:
- The range from 1-2.5 mil was a mixed bag with lots of good and bad players, could win ~70% of matches against players in this range
- Around 2.5 mil was the point where good play became more prevalent, I was able to compete with people in this range and win 55-60% of matches
- 3 mil marked a distinct jump in skill, I was able to get over that hump but maintaining that spot was very difficult and I usually lost to other players over 3 mil

At the present time with my best GSP characters around 4 mil my experience is:
- Mixed bag up to around 3.5 mil GSP
- Largely solid play with good rulesets from 3.5-4 mil, I can consistently compete with players in this range and win 55-60%
- 4 mil and up marks a distinct jump in skill. I can beat enough lower GSP players to get my GSP over 4 mil but I usually lose to other players 4 mil and up.

 

[ZaTank]

- 4 mil and up marks a distinct jump in skill. I can beat enough lower GSP players to get my GSP over 4 mil but I usually lose to other players 4 mil and up.

I was able to maintain 4 mil for a bit but I got kicked back to ~3.5 mil after a day or so.

 

[Ir0n Ch3f]

I was able to maintain 4 mil for a bit but I got kicked back to ~3.5 mil after a day or so.

mid 3 mil is my happy zone, i go about 50-50 but granted I am playing everyone's favorite tiger so

Anyways, I thought I would be stuck under 2 mil forever until I went beast mode and shot up to mid 3 mil. Seems like quickplay players still havent figured out what incineroar's up-b does, five months after release.

 

[nshoes]

Seems like quickplay players still havent figured out what incineroar's up-b does, five months after release.

Since I never play against Incinee online that up b always takes me by surprise the first time lol

 

[Xquirtle]

You gotta keep in mind that most of the ladder is fake rankings. Like i've taken maybe 20 characters online, and the rest of mine have some GSP in the 3 millions and ive never touched them. I don't deserve that ranking on any of them and if i just cold picked one up, i'm sure that i'd lose my first few matches. Anyway, considering that the entire mid range of the ladder is full of fake rankings, it makes the system do a poor job at representing skill outside of the very bottom and very top. When you lost down to 90k, you probably also noticed that you stopped losing a lot of ranking. This is because virtually everybody at or below 90k is a real player, not a fake rank. You suddenly have to lose a lot more games to get worse than the next guy. Same goes for high GSP where only real players are in elite.

My theory is that a majority of the player base is below 100k gsp on their main. Just consider that there are 4.5 million ranked players, and 71 characters in the game. That means 7.1 million characters at or below that 100k gsp mark, which is all real players. People generally play more than one character, which accounts for the difference. Why does this matter? well that is where all of the 'bad' players are at, and if you're in the range of millions of GSP, what you're actually doing is floating among all of the fake ratings of each account. It is severely diluted, with fewer real players, and all of those players are above average (since they break that low gsp window). I think that this is why you could run into a 2.5 mil player and be like "holy F that guy is the best guy i've played all day".

I've buried a few characters down in GSP hell, which is definitely real. You run into more wifi and jank rules, and if you have a high GSP main, the game is literally rigged against you. You would notice that you get put against 3.5 mil players on your 100k gsp alt and lose the same GSP as if you lost to another 100k. Its a downwards vacuum until you get good at the alt. Anyway, I made it a goal to get them all out, and my only one left below 3m is Jiggs who is still at like 90k lol. I just can't suffer through playing that character since i normally play fast fallers.

TLDR: I think most players are below 100k gsp on their mains. The mid ranged GSPs are severely dilluted by fake rankings, which is why it is hard to tell the difference between a 2 mil and 3 mil player. I'd say that it is midly correlated to skill between 1 mil and upper 3 mil, but just a few losses or wins can have somebody over or under ranked by a ton.

 

[ZaTank]

That's an interesting analysis. It is funny how people sub-1 million are better than you would expect at first.

 

[Glerma]

Yeah, I feel like we need to stop looking at GSP as a solid and designed ranking system and instead as a very, very rough guideline lol. Like if you are stuck in 50k GSP then you are probably struggling with the character and the game in general at the time, if you are consistently above 4 mil you are probably pretty good. But in between nobody really knows lol. I just find GSP frustrating because I want to look at it like a ranking system compared to league of legends, or rainbow 6 where if you are diamond you are pretty damn good at the game, if you are bronze you are pretty bad, and as much as you argue about it the consensus is the ranked system knows what it is doing. But that is not what Smash has at all, the biggest problem I find is there is not a scaling reward system based off of GSP. Like I was playing a character that was hovering around 1 million GSP maybe, i do not remember who it was since I do not play them a lot. But I lost a few games in a roe (5/6ish) and dropped literally to 80/100k GSP. But every person I lost to had loads more GSP than me, first 2 or 3 games they were above 3 mil and they did not drop below 2 mil for the next few. But I continued to lose the same amount of GSP as if I was playing someone the game considered equal in skill. This sort of turned into a rant...idk.

 

[nshoes]

Yeah, I feel like we need to stop looking at GSP as a solid and designed ranking system and instead as a very, very rough guideline lol. Like if you are stuck in 50k GSP then you are probably struggling with the character and the game in general at the time, if you are consistently above 4 mil you are probably pretty good. But in between nobody really knows lol. I just find GSP frustrating because I want to look at it like a ranking system compared to league of legends, or rainbow 6 where if you are diamond you are pretty damn good at the game, if you are bronze you are pretty bad, and as much as you argue about it the consensus is the ranked system knows what it is doing. But that is not what Smash has at all, the biggest problem I find is there is not a scaling reward system based off of GSP. Like I was playing a character that was hovering around 1 million GSP maybe, i do not remember who it was since I do not play them a lot. But I lost a few games in a roe (5/6ish) and dropped literally to 80/100k GSP. But every person I lost to had loads more GSP than me, first 2 or 3 games they were above 3 mil and they did not drop below 2 mil for the next few. But I continued to lose the same amount of GSP as if I was playing someone the game considered equal in skill. This sort of turned into a rant...idk.

No, I hear you man! It's played out to be exactly that: low GSP's are struggling or maybe stuck if they can't improve since A LOT of people are down there (similar to what Xquirtle was saying) and the best of the best are in the low 4 millions and above. Everyone else is in the weird nebulous middle where you can gain or lose 100k GSP a match.

 

[Coolboy]

Yeah, I feel like we need to stop looking at GSP as a solid and designed ranking system and instead as a very, very rough guideline lol. Like if you are stuck in 50k GSP then you are probably struggling with the character and the game in general at the time, if you are consistently above 4 mil you are probably pretty good. But in between nobody really knows lol. I just find GSP frustrating because I want to look at it like a ranking system compared to league of legends, or rainbow 6 where if you are diamond you are pretty damn good at the game, if you are bronze you are pretty bad, and as much as you argue about it the consensus is the ranked system knows what it is doing. But that is not what Smash has at all, the biggest problem I find is there is not a scaling reward system based off of GSP. Like I was playing a character that was hovering around 1 million GSP maybe, i do not remember who it was since I do not play them a lot. But I lost a few games in a roe (5/6ish) and dropped literally to 80/100k GSP. But every person I lost to had loads more GSP than me, first 2 or 3 games they were above 3 mil and they did not drop below 2 mil for the next few. But I continued to lose the same amount of GSP as if I was playing someone the game considered equal in skill. This sort of turned into a rant...idk.

i have that frustration with team matches.. most of my character i play alot and i am kinda good or good with are in 3/4 mil..but if i get into a team match and i lost i think nothing yet until i see my teammate's GSP it's literally under 2/1 mil alot of times and then i get kinda annoyed with the GSP matchmaking.. it's really unfair! why are my opponents matched perfectly GSP wise but i get the teammates with a waaaay lower GSP? -.-

 

[Glerma]

i have that frustration with team matches.. most of my character i play alot and i am kinda good or good with are in 3/4 mil..but if i get into a team match and i lost i think nothing yet until i see my teammate's GSP it's literally under 2/1 mil alot of times and then i get kinda annoyed with the GSP matchmaking.. it's really unfair! why are my opponents matched perfectly GSP wise but i get the teammates with a waaaay lower GSP? -.-

I never had an interest in teams because I would want to play with some I can talk to. But I have heard horror stories from others about the match making with it yeah. That is rough.

No, I hear you man! It's played out to be exactly that: low GSP's are struggling or maybe stuck if they can't improve since A LOT of people are down there (similar to what Xquirtle was saying) and the best of the best are in the low 4 millions and above. Everyone else is in the weird nebulous middle where you can gain or lose 100k GSP a match.

I am surprised if I am gaining or losing less than 100k GSP per match. I think the average when I am not near my extremes at the top or bottom is like 200k or something stupid. Like if I **** the bed with someone and they drop to 80k, it will take 5-10 wins to get them back to 100k then 3-5 wins to get them to 1mil.

 

[nshoes]

I am surprised if I am gaining or losing less than 100k GSP per match. I think the average when I am not near my extremes at the top or bottom is like 200k or something stupid. Like if I **** the bed with someone and they drop to 80k, it will take 5-10 wins to get them back to 100k then 3-5 wins to get them to 1mil.

Yep. It all has to do with the density of players. It's super dense down low and up high.

 

[Dr. Arc]

I've noticed something changed with the matchmaking system ever since 3.0 dropped. Prior to Joker, I didn't really have a main, but I decided to pick up Dr. Mario. I reached as low as 90k GSP with him then would climb to 700k GSP only to encounter some extremely good players (some would have over 4.4 million GSP) and crash back down again. For some reason, after 3.0 dropped, I haven't encountered those players and have since worked my way up to 3 million GSP (in around 2 days from 90k GSP). My swordsmen (and Joker), having never left the 3.5 million and above range, have since stayed around 4.1 to 4.4 million as for some reason, the players that I have been matched with have not been as good as those I encountered in that 90k GSP hell prior to patch 3.0.

 

[i'mteribbleatsmash]

Pretty self explanatory from the title. I literally have no idea how to get better. I play online and just do terrible every single time. I main Lucina. This is the first smash game I've played since the original N64 version and I can't ever win. I practice and practice, but I literally never get any better. How do people get so good at this game? I have no idea how to improve and all it's doing is frustrating me and I'm very close to honestly never playing it again. Any advice is appreciated especially from veteran players. Thanks so much.

 

[Dr. Arc]

Hey there! I'm not so much a veteran, but I have been playing Ultimate for quite some time now. One of the first things that helped me get started was playing against the CPU while gradually increasing its level. Level 8 and 9's are pretty cheap when it comes to them reading your moves, so going up to 7 should be okay. While practicing against the CPU, try to practice your aerials, edge guarding, shielding at the right time, and short hops. Don't rely too much on smash attacks to KO the opponent. Also, don't worry about combos for now. After getting comfortable with your aerials, I suggest going for online quick plays as it will help you learn different matchups and the methods human players use to win. Don't worry about winning for now. What you need to do is keep on playing and learning how each character and player reacts against your Lucina. Eventually, you'll start to see a pattern in their strategies (like how Links love to start by throwing a boomerang) and be able to start 'reading' your opponents. In my opinion, the more time you spend playing, the better you get.

Go get them, and good luck out there!

 

[Naptec]

Izaw made a video series calles "Art of Smash Ultimate". It can be really useful to be better at Smash, so check it out a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta3L35wsE6o&list=PL4SzCzeORbSRRI72fLpdCCDI-SZIwqFyJ

 

[FartyParty]

The other aspect to consider is that unless you've just fought a ditto match, your GSP doesn't changing relative to your opponent; it changes relative to other people using the same character. This means that your GPS gain/loss isn't just determined by the result of your match but also the results of other matches for people playing the same character as you.

 

[nshoes]

The other aspect to consider is that unless you've just fought a ditto match, your GSP doesn't changing relative to your opponent; it changes relative to other people using the same character. This means that your GPS gain/loss isn't just determined by the result of your match but also the results of other matches for people playing the same character as you.

Wait, really? Source?

 

[FartyParty]

Wait, really? Source?

No source needed. It's an inevitable result of the GSP system's basic design. We know that GSP is determined on a character-by-character basis because we all have a different GSP with each character. So any change in your GSP must be relative to other players using the same character and not relative to your opponent - unless it's a ditto match, as mentioned - and therefore the results of matches happening around the same time have to affect how the GSPs of players using a particular character change relative to one another. It's unavoidable. The algorithm must have some time threshold for how close to one another matches need to start and/or finish to be accounted for in each player's GSP change.

This explains some of the confusing things about the GSP changes between matches, like beating an opponent with higher GSP and gaining say 100K then losing a rematch and seeing your higher GSP opponent gain 200K, more than what you got from beating them. Your GSP changed relative to other player's using your character, and their GSP changed relative to other player's using their character.

 

[Crystanium]

I heard that the 3.0 patch was supposed to put you up against players who are around your GSP. I don't know how close this is supposed to be, but right now after getting bodied at the beginning this morning, I am currently at 4.657 million. I've been put up against players who are 4.62 million. I'm wondering if anyone is experiencing anything similar. It's as if it's Sakurai's way of saying that if you're losing, you're going to fight players who may not be as good as you are, or they are and their GSP isn't as high. This is rare from my experience. Is anyone being put up against players with lower GSP after losing one or two matches? Or is this just something I'm experiencing only?

 

[J.I.L]

In totality of online, you guys are only like within a % point away from each other so theoretically you are fighting your skill level. Plus I think Nintendo likes polling players close to you in location as priorities. But yeah, happens all the time. I’m at 5.645 mil + and I play people about 10-15k below me. Though I’ve been recently playing this bowser who’s like at 5.680 million. Of course I’ve lost both times. The dude is too good, plus bower is a cheap character.
Bower
Rosalina
Inklings
Snakes (who play on battlefield)
Zelda (though if you have patience, you can out maneuver it)
All cheap characters. You know, I have another thing on my mind but I’m going to start a thread for that.

 

[Arrei]

I have no real evidence to base it on, but they might have increased the range of scores we're able to be matched against. My GSP seems to be on the high side for my area, which had the effect of making it so my highest-scoring characters, Ike and Ganon, had longer waits than normal to be matched against valid opponents. When I did find opponents, they were almost always a fair amount of points below me, usually 20-30k below. I know it's not merely player activity differences, because I could switch to lesser-played characters and get instant matches. Recently, I've noticed the matchmaking has been faster so that I'm not sitting around as much, but the vast majority of opponents are still below me by quite a fair amount - I think one was like 80k below me a couple days ago.

It definitely doesn't have anything to do with winning or losing streaks - I was on a huge win streak with Ike just yesterday, but it wasn't finding me higher opponents.

 

[Xquirtle]

No source needed. It's an inevitable result of the GSP system's basic design. We know that GSP is determined on a character-by-character basis because we all have a different GSP with each character. So any change in your GSP must be relative to other players using the same character and not relative to your opponent - unless it's a ditto match, as mentioned - and therefore the results of matches happening around the same time have to affect how the GSPs of players using a particular character change relative to one another. It's unavoidable. The algorithm must have some time threshold for how close to one another matches need to start and/or finish to be accounted for in each player's GSP change.

This explains some of the confusing things about the GSP changes between matches, like beating an opponent with higher GSP and gaining say 100K then losing a rematch and seeing your higher GSP opponent gain 200K, more than what you got from beating them. Your GSP changed relative to other player's using your character, and their GSP changed relative to other player's using their character.

I think its just a garbage system that does not look at the quality of your wins or losses in any way. This is evidenced by low GSP alts getting matched with people 40 times their rating and still losing the same gsp as if they lost to somebody below them. Traditionally, the lower player in this scenario would lose virtually no rating for losing, as it is a disgusting mismatch.

You are correct in that players don't trade GSP. Its a rank, not rating, and each character has its own ladder. But players are exchanging some sort of hidden rating that we can't see, and whatever that algorithm is, I can assure you that it is REALLLLLLY STUPID.

 

[Sean²]

I don't think they fixed the thing where if you keep rematching, even if your opponent leaves, you're still matched up against the same level of GSP queue that you started with. On my non-elite smash characters, I've faced people several million below me, and several million above me. That means someone keeps rematching on losing streaks or winning streaks. It doesn't change what queue they're put into until they exit matchmaking and re-enter.

I’m at 5.645 mil

Please tell me you mistyped a number here. No one is above 5 million GSP. I'm around 4.6 million and I only gain 500 to 1000 GSP per win. That's telling me there isn't anyone over a million points above me, or I'd be gaining more.

 

[Crystanium]

In totality of online, you guys are only like within a % point away from each other so theoretically you are fighting your skill level. Plus I think Nintendo likes polling players close to you in location as priorities. But yeah, happens all the time. I’m at 5.645 mil + and I play people about 10-15k below me. Though I’ve been recently playing this bowser who’s like at 5.680 million. Of course I’ve lost both times. The dude is too good, plus bower is a cheap character.
Bower
Rosalina
Inklings
Snakes (who play on battlefield)
Zelda (though if you have patience, you can out maneuver it)
All cheap characters. You know, I have another thing on my mind but I’m going to start a thread for that.

Well, the thing is that these players I ended up encountering were either two- or three-stocked by me, so maybe that's why it bothers me. As for 5.68 million, no one is that high. A particular person I have had contact with from Smashcords was at 4.69 million yesterday, and he's one of the few players I'm aware of who have very high GSP. Since it is the fifth month since SSBU has been out, the GSP should soon match the duration of its existence.

 

[J.I.L]

Well, the thing is that these players I ended up encountering were either two- or three-stocked by me, so maybe that's why it bothers me. As for 5.68 million, no one is that high. A particular person I have had contact with from Smashcords was at 4.69 million yesterday, and he's one of the few players I'm aware of who have very high GSP. Since it is the fifth month since SSBU has been out, the GSP should soon match the duration of its existence.

I meant 4 not 5

 

[Felancius]

Despite Arenas having their own myriad of glaring problems, I find that they're far more preferable for this very reason. Quickplay just punishes you way too hard for losing, meaning even if it was a slight mistake, you're gonna be finding yourself smacked down super hard losing 1 game even if you won 3 or 5 prior. I'd like to think this is a bug, but Nintendo has yet to address it at all. It's also even worse when you take into account the fact that only until recently, the GSP system was so messed up that people were being matched with super uneven rankings.

It's almost to the point that it makes Elite Smash actually feel like it means something, but not what was intended, but rather that you weren't completely screwed over by this crappy system in place for say, 1 accidental air dodge or moving the C stick the wrong way, basically, actually playing perfect to a T. For that reason, I ain't touching Quickplay until they finally patch it, but as of now, they seem to ignore it constantly.

 

[Ethan Weegee]

I just played some quickplay yesterday, I started with Ness at 95k GSP. My first match won didn't even increase my GSP by 1,000, but my second win put me at 114k GSP. Then I lost a match and went down to ~96k GSP.

Glad I'm not the only one experiencing that. The 2.7 million GSP I was once at seems so far away.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

Doesn't it seem like people don't give a **** about their gsp if Nintendo has garbage online?

 

[~?~]

GSP does not in any way, shape or form, indicate a players skill level. In fact, the higher GSP ranges are infested with some of the most lackluster, bad habit having, no combo or punish game having, walmart wifi having, bad strategy having, no parry tech having players who would get 3 stocked 3-0 in bracket offline. I've seen players with a flat 4 million GSP absolutely SHRED people with near 4.7 mil GSP.

The issue I have the most with GSP is, the players tend to NEVER rematch people who beat them, and only rematch people who lose to them, which of course, exaggerates their GSP by astonishing amounts. Most players have at least a spare 1 million GSP floating around off of that factor alone. The other issue is, rulesets. It does NOT matter what your rule set preference is, you WILL end up on RNG stages with smashballs and items, playing against the most laggy DDD on wifi possible. Being limited to only FD and BF is also a huge issue, as some characters don't want to go to one or the other, especially in specific matchups. That's the other thing, random matchups. You just might end up having to fight your worst matchup 10 times in a row because bad netcoding said so. Another issue, no mid-set character switches allowed during rematches, which is a HUGE flaw for the competitive elite smash scene.

To be blunt, 99% of players with high GSP have a fake GSP, built off the backs of casuals they rematch 19 games in a row, while avoiding rematches with the players who bodied them because they aren't carried by walmart wifi with heavies or counter spam.

If you're looking for REAL players who are REAL threats, and you are trying for REAL improvement so you too are a REAL threat, you'd go to arenas where people have control to kick out carried walmart wifi players, and play bracket style smash. The BEST of the best I've ever played have been exclusively found in different arenas, and I have almost never once seen a good player in elite smash, period. That's just blunt honesty, like it or not. When I'm looking for a fight, I'm looking in the arenas. When I'm looking for good players to challenge me, I make my own arena and set the title to "come get bodied".