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So... A Toad debuts in Super Mario Bros. THE Toad debuts in Super Mario Bros. 2. So, the main difference between A Toad and THE Toad is that THE Toad is the adventurous Toad who joins Mario and Luigi in some adventures (SMB2, NSMBWii, NSMBU, SM3DW).
In my opinion, Nintendo really needs to officially recognize Toad as a honorary "Mario Brother" in a future main Mario game.
Blue and Yellow toads are different beings, the Toad character is the red one.
Nintendo don't want to use him on mario anymore, maybe they have more plans for him in the future, is weird how they discard him for the recent new and world titles.
Hope warios woods mean something, i just cant stand the yellow/blue toads...
Blue and Yellow toads are different beings, the Toad character is the red one.
Nintendo don't want to use him on mario anymore, maybe they have more plans for him in the future, is weird how they discard him for the recent new and world titles.
Hope warios woods mean something, i just cant stand the yellow/blue toads...
I hope that Toad is playable in Super Mario Galaxy 3 (Wii U) and New Super Mario Bros. 3 (3DS) if Nintendo decides to make these games a reality in the future.
My god, I can't wait to play as Toad in 3D World... I bet he looks cute in the Tanooki suit!! Toads dressed up in Tanooki suits in the end credits of NSMB2. I remember when I was doing the survey for NSMB2 on Club Nintendo, I talked about Toad and SMB2:
- Toad was playable in NSMBWii, no reason to cut him from NSMB2
- Toads wore Tanooki suits yet we cannot play as Tanooki Toad???
- Nintendo needs to give Toad back his backbone he had in SMB2 and Wario's Woods
- Nintendo needs to make a new game like SMB2 with the same characters and unique abilities
- I added that Toad should have his own game
I'm happy Nintendo responded with Super Mario 3D World where I shall receive:
- a playable Toad
- a playable Toad wearing the Tanooki suit
- a Toad with a backbone like he had in SMB2
- a spiritual successor to SMB2 with same characters and unique abilities
- Toad's own game mode
That's why I was more hyped for SM3DW than I was for SSB4 at E3 2013.
I did forget that he's the other Toad in that artwork, but in Super Mario 3D World, the blue "Toad" is referred to as "Kinopio", which is the name for "the Toad" that we have known before. Basically, the blue Toad is "Toad" in the most recent installment. Take that as you will, but there are multiple "Toad"s that are still considered "The Toad".
As someone who grew up with Mario Kart 64's solid 8-character roster that formed the backbone of every Mario spin-off game of the era and onwards, the presence of any other character as the 5th Mario rep just feels wrong. For this reason, Toad is actually the character I want the most. His placement along side Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser, with Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi nearby, just feels right.
Now the time has finally come when Toad actually has a shot of getting in this time. He's the most iconic Mario character not yet playable in Smash. Two of them stand along side the Mario Brothers in the New Super Mario Bros. games when Miyamoto has no issue of using Wario and Yoshi for Mario platformers (SM64DS). Most importantly, Toad has achieved the highest honor of any Mario character by being playable in a 3D Mario game. And with his own unique attributes too!
It breaks my heart that there is quite a vocal opposition against him. Yes, Bowser Jr. has a chance too, and kudos to those of you who made creative move sets for the guy. However, choosing a mid-boss over a platforming hero on the rise, an icon of days both old an new, is a questionable order of priorities in my opinion. Though, I will cut some slack to some of the opposition. The appeal of Toad as a playable character in Smash may be difficult to understand if you are not a huge fan of the Mario series. I don't blame people for growing out of the newer non-Galaxy installments due to the lack of visual variation that made each new installment charming to begin with. It is both a blessing and a curse that Toad's rise as a playable character in the main Mario games had to occur in these titles. For it is from these games where Toad's potential move set may draw the most from. I'll post a simple move set of my own some other time if I feel like it.
So, here is why I firmly believe Toad isn't disconfirmed. 1) Being a generic species is not an issue with Yoshi, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff also being populous species. 2) It is not that hard to change Peach's B move with Toadsworth's model. This kind of change is the same kind of aesthetic change that Sakurai talked about in his caption. 3) Even if the Toad with red spots and blue vest remains as Peach's move, the Blue Toad being playable in 3D World gives him enough credentials to be the default.
Indeed, Super Mario 3D World as a main 3D Mario platforming game, can usher in changes to future Mario titles and even Super Smash Bros. We may be older fans and think the old conventions of the Mario cast may never change, but with Blue Toad being playable in 4 platforming titles now, could we see the Blue Toad becoming "THE Toad" in the future? Think about it.
So what do you guys think are Red Toad's chances against Blue Toad?
They both have a pretty decent shot I believe, but at this point I think Blue Toad actually has a slight advantage.
I did forget that he's the other Toad in that artwork, but in Super Mario 3D World, the blue "Toad" is referred to as "Kinopio", which is the name for "the Toad" that we have known before. Basically, the blue Toad is "Toad" in the most recent installment. Take that as you will, but there are multiple "Toad"s that are still considered "The Toad".
So what do you guys think are Red Toad's chances against Blue Toad?
They both have a pretty decent shot I believe, but at this point I think Blue Toad actually has a slight advantage.
If I'm honest Louie G, it's looking increasingly likely that Blue may have the advantage having starred in almost as many playable roles as Red Toad now:
Red Toad(Aka "Toad", Aka Toad Brigade Captain):
Super Mario Brothers 2(his sprite is blue, but the artwork clearly has the red spots)
Wario's Woods
Remakes of both games
Tiny role in Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga if you count that... (Geno fans count his cameo in that, so why the hell not I guess?)
Every single Mario Kart, Mario Tennis(64 only), Mario Sports Mix, Half the Mario Party games when he wasn't hosting, etc.
Super Mario 3D World; Toad mode(aka; Red Toad Brigade Captain's own missions)
Blue Toad(Aka Bucken-Berry):
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
New Super Mario Bros. Wii U
New Luigi Bros. U
Mario Sports Mix...he and the other Toad's are playable characters.
Super Mario 3D World: Blue Toad is playable in main game.
Frankly though both Toad's will be available and so will Yellow Toad(Aka Ala-Gold) should Toad be allowed in anyway. The default might be blue, it might be red, it might be red spots with a blue jacket but frankly I feel there's enough love for both Bucken-Berry and Toad that I'll be happy with either should the other be a palette swap.
I agree on your point regarding Toad's appearences in NSMB have been a mixed bag; many don't enjoy the classic Mario games as much, which is a shame. Maybe 3D World will help bring some of these individuals around. I'm confident Toad being a character for "experts" will grant him a few brownie points in the future.
Well yes! But the same can be said for pretty much all the roster. Only way Ridley/K.Rool/Little Mac/Palutena/Mewtwo etc are in is if they're already in.
I doubt we'll be getting any Sonic treatment for Toad after all. He's famous, probably the most famous Nintendo character NOT in Smash currently, but with the exception of us, he doesn't have any fans nearly as passionate as Sonic's insane fanbase. Hell, I doubt ANY character will be getting the Sonic treatment ever again.
Personally, I am just really hyped they finally brought Wario's Woods to the 3DS VC. I have waited so long for a portable version of this masterpiece. I still remember complaining earlier this year about why it still hadn't been released for the Virtual Console.
Its a really fun game. Definitely an excellent title to conclude the NES.
We didn't mean to... we just love to talk about our favorite mushroom friend.
If I wanted to get your hopes up, I would have claimed that Toad could just advertise Wario's Woods for the 3DS on the SSB4 website since Peach now retroactively advertises Super Mario 3D World.
Personally, I am just really hyped they finally brought Wario's Woods to the 3DS VC. I have waited so long for a portable version of this masterpiece. I still remember complaining earlier this year about why it still hadn't been released for the Virtual Console.
Its a really fun game. Definitely an excellent title to conclude the NES.
I've played a little Wario's Woods on an emulator.
Definitely a fun game.
But how much of Toad's moveset and abilities do you think would be pulled from the game?
I say that bombs are definites, but running up walls would be a blast as well.
I've played a little Wario's Woods on an emulator.
Definitely a fun game.
But how much of Toad's moveset and abilities do you think would be pulled from the game?
I say that bombs are definites, but running up walls would be a blast as well.
Yeah, bombs and running up walls are aspects that I have included in a possible Toad moveset. Another idea from Wario's Woods is his superhuman strength (returns from Super Mario Bros. 2).
Personally, I prefer the SNES version (which unfortunately has never been re-released). However, in general, Wario's Woods is a puzzle masterpiece that at the very least won me over as a Toad fan.
I've played a little Wario's Woods on an emulator.
Definitely a fun game.
But how much of Toad's moveset and abilities do you think would be pulled from the game?
I say that bombs are definites, but running up walls would be a blast as well.
Bowserlick's idea of different colour bombs doing different amounts of damage on the victim character depending on their personal colours. It's one of my favourite suggestions thus far for Toad, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it myself.
Wall running is another unique gimmick that I haven't seen any other character use. It'd be amazing if it was included, but I can imagine that it'd be a pain to program. Would make for some really clever usage of the environment though...perhaps in exchange for his mediocre jumping recovery something like this would work well?
I guess another thing I'd like would be for Toad to pick up multiple objects and carry them above his head at the same time. He'd very much be THE items guy should he be able to do that, albeit he'd end up throwing them and them splitting apart very much like what throwing a crate/barrel does rather than using them all as a barrage of projectiles...that would be pretty overpowered.
Bowserlick's idea of different colour bombs doing different amounts of damage on the victim character depending on their personal colours. It's one of my favourite suggestions thus far for Toad, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it myself.
But who's more likely here?
Toad is more important as a Nintendo character, and would likely show up before Lip.
Therefore, it's first come first serve.
And have you ever played Wario's Woods? It works somewhat similarly, match the colors.
But who's more likely here?
Toad is more important as a Nintendo character, and would likely show up before Lip.
Therefore, it's first come first serve.
And have you ever played Wario's Woods? It works somewhat similarly, match the colors.
I also think that this is more fitting for Lip. Also, if you are going to the color coordinated path I think there should be an ability for Lip to change the opponent's color in order to match her blocks. But that might be overcomplicating things.
Regardless, I think Lip should rely on puzzles more than Toad. Toad is more known for his speed, unpredictable strength, and cowardly nature than puzzle solving.
Wouldn't it be awesome if Toad's Final Smash is based on Wario's Woods where Toad summons Wanda (who looks suspiciously like a Sprixie) and she uses her fairy magic to make colorful bombs rain all over the stage?
But Toad being playable alone is awesome as is... I really hope Toad is playable in SSB4.
Toad's final Smash could be growing large (as if he got a Giant Mushroom) and all the other characters become small (as if they got the poison mushroom).
Note: A few stances have been swayed while writing this post, but I'm not gonna edit the post accordingly.
2nd Note: I think I've made this point before, but I look at things not from the viewpoint of an artist who wants to create something beautiful and meaningful, but as a ruthless and unapologizing businessman who's only intention is to create a game that will resonate well enough to translate into more sales and better reviews from today's audience.
EddyBearr, you certainly have made his thread interesting and have engaged quite a few people. And I respect you for trying to use logic to convey your opinion.
But the only thing I can't wrap my head around, is that after all the criteria you have constructed for why Toad should or could not get in, you don't see a problem with Waluigi.
I would love to see a Waluigi moveset from you that also matches your criteria.
I've said that Waluigi's moveset prospects are kinda bad (though his practical moveset potential is higher). I argued in this thread that I support Waluigi for balance (Marios Bros. and Wario Bros.) Simultaneously, while Daisy is also arguably missing for Balance purposes, she's also arguably not by being a palette swap, and alongside that, it's very easy for Peach to palette swap Daisy, but there's no one who can palette swap Waluigi.
It's also notable that Luigi lacks in moveset department, but he's in because he's Luigi. When breaking "he's luigi" into parts, it's stuff like appeal, importance, and balance. Waluigi is nowhere near Luigi's level, but I think Waluigi does warrant a spot.
Only because she has a singular item that separates her from the rest of Team Star Fox; the staff. And Fox has used it. Technically it's not even something only she can use since Fox managed to wield it's power, so I don't think it's that different a situation; and is the same as arguing why Toad cannot use a pluck style move that he's used more than Peach in the past(and with better results).
I'm pretty sure Krystal's staff is far more iconic to Krystal than anything Toad has done, and I'd place a bet on that, but we'd need to poll some core gamers at some nintendo convention.
I haven't argued that Toad can't use a pluck style move, and indeed I've said he could, but it's really missing the "This is what makes him Toad" aspect that most characters have with an amount of moves (and many characters have with the most iconic moves in history [ex: kirby]). Sometimes it's a conglomerate, but only if the character is known for using a conglomerate of items (EX: Link)
I'm not sure about this so feel free to set me right on this point, but does she even use it after StarFox Adventures?
I don't think so, but I don't think Luigi or Mario either use their "E.Gadd contraptions." The more time that passes, the less her staff is useful. Thankfully, the 2002-2005 crowd is still around to purchase Smash (myself included,)
As it was Krystal's introductory game and was central to Krystal as a character in the game, it's pretty good for her still. Rather, her appearances in newer Star Fox games I'd say doesn't take away the staff aspect, but rather gives her some "space animal" stereotypes she'd otherwise have been missing (blaster/reflector/LANDDMASTER!)
Again, nothing Mario or Luigi have are special to themselves, since they could both use the cape and the fire flower. Mario's FLUDD, although hardly what we first think of when thinking of Mario, is the exception.
I don't disagree, and I've already stated many times that Toad's options can create a "moveset," but it's kinda disingenuous because no matter what, Toad will never be the one and only brother of Mr. Nintendo, or Mr. Nintendo.
How does Captain Falcon do anything that any other F-Zero character wouldn't be able to do? Or Falco? Toad using abilities that have been used in the Mario series that has barely been touched upon seems acceptable to me, particularly if he's used them. Acceptable, but not my favourite option.
He doesn't, and we went over C. Falcon. We'd agreed a plausible explanation is that he's the "basic fighter" stereotype, but more evidence would be lovely.
I've noted that him using some of the items is acceptable, and I agree it's not the favorite option. The favorite option would be if he had something that was so overtly Toad that it should obviously be important to his moveset, kinda like how Eating & Egging is so overtly Yoshi that it should obviously be important to Yoshi's moveset.
Then you can do a LOT worse than Toad. Everyone knows Toad even if they don't know of his playable past.
If Toad is in the game, he should be fast. But is Toad being known (pretty obscurely I'd say) for being "fast" (Pikachu is not obscure, speed-wise) enough to give his moveset/physics/etc. potential some solid points? Paying note to the idea that almost any Nintendo character has a few unique characteristics (heck, any character in anything,) and has plenty of "practical" moveset potential.
Also, whilst we don't know for sure, I believe it's fair to reason Sakurai would PROBABLY know about a game like 3D World. It's Mario which is basically Nintendo. It must of been in the works as he was deciding the roster. Again; this doesn't mean anything regarding Toad, but I'd like to think people keep him informed on what they're working on since his game is a collaboration of all Nintendo games. It'd seem ridiculous to not inform him on what was happening within the company even if it had nothing to do with Smash.
Undeniably (well okay, we're all assuming) he knows it exists. The question is, had he already decided on Toad before he learned about it?
Not at all. If Toad ONLY appeared in Wario's Woods, then sure. But he hasn't. Since you want examples of things only he does within a game, then Wario's Woods is the only example, and that's simply because he's the only character and in all other Mario games ALL the protagonists are given the same tools to work with and tweaks to jumping, speed or in Peach's case; floating.
If Toad got in, use what Toad has at his disposal. Does what Toad has at his disposal give him "solid/unique/personal/"So-Obviously-Toad" moveset potential? I don't think so.
However since you're adamant that Toad cannot use an item unless only HE has used it, yes we're stuck with Wario's Woods for inspiration. Just like if I was arguing for Bowser Jr I'd have to use Mario Sunshine as it's the only place he can use something that his dad could not.
I'm not, though. Toad can use it, and to be honest it's probably his best option, but generally speaking (not specifically speaking about Toad's options,) is it a truly "good" option to define him on?
I do agree. Although this makes me even more puzzled over why you request Waluigi on a side note.
Balance and style. He fits in, he feels like he's missing based on the roster, he's unique enough and nintendo enough while...shapely enough, to be able to fit into the game very easily.
I hope you meant in video games with that last bit. It's a great way to break your spine IRL.
I've previously suggested Toad House stuff, but he also hosted the Mario Party games until people demanded he was playable. He's had a few roles that have been unique to him alone, but you're asking for specifically combat related things which is where we're getting an issue.
Didn't think about some of the Toad maps from Mario Parties, so that's a bit more. It's still missing the iconic thing, or at least anything that would stick with someone pretty well EX: with Mario's dair, you have to dig a bit to realize it's from his old spin jump, but with Mario's FLUDD, it's pretty quick for anyone who's ever known of SMS exactly what it is.
No Mario character outside Yoshi, Wario and Bowser Jr(and only because of his paintbrush) really has this, because they all share the same items or attacks.
Mario: He's in even if he never moved in a game, ever. He's mr. Nintendo. With that said, his special moves are all "so mario." Cape, Fludd, tornado, fire ball, and the "coin jump" all are something a person could see on Mario and say, almost in an instant, "Yep, Mario would totally do that".
Luigi: Mr. Nintendo's brother is in no matter what. If he gets his Vacuum, then he's got something like Mario, but until then, the only thing feels any bit "luigi" is the green fireball (and that's almost cheating.)
Peach: In no matter what, she's in. Her moves are obscure, and mostly impersonal (though there is the floating, and to be honest, floating is much more likely to stick in your mind than "stronger".) Kinda bad moveset potential.
Yoshi: We agree, Yoshi is a boss.
Bowser: Fire is cliche, but it's also 100% Bowser. The practical moveset is through the roof.
Bowser Jr. I doubt he'd use his paint-brush. Maybe as a Final Smash.
Wario: Wario's doing alright.
To be honest, of Mario Characters, only Luigi, Peach, and Bowser Jr. have poor personal moveset. Luigi's ability to extrapolate from Mario obviously greatly exceeds Toad's, Peach has some "only Peach" stuff that, if you played her games, make so much sense. Bowser Jr.. I think he'd just be a mini-bowser, but the final smash would probably be a paint-brush, so that might be "so him." I honestly think Toad is lacking for all of these.
I wonder if Tom Nook or Anna have anything special about them that Villager or any swords user cannot already do when it comes to pure combat.
Tom Nook advocates are cray cray. Anna, not so much. I'm opting for her due to gender, recency, appeal, franchise, practical moveset, personality, and to fill the "fast" sword cliche (Ike is slow, Marth is probably middle.) It just feels like there has to be a 3rd FE rep to me, and I think Anna would be best.
SM3D World does prove that the individual characteristics of the Mario protagonist quad are remembered. Else why include them?
I don't think an unreleased re-make of a game from a popular series from a company that's made it a habit to re-release old games for no apparent reason other than to re-release them means that the fans are remembering details from the game well. It might be memorable to some guys at Nintendo, but they're not out core audience. Lol.
Peach by this point really should of been using her Super Princess Peach abilities if we're honest. Also she was terrible at picking up items. Also again, there's more than Turnips.
BTW why has no one suggested the Subcon potion yet? That would be fun to play with and you could get quite creative with that for a Final Smash.
I don't totally disagree with much here, but the "pick item/turnips" shtick from SMB2 has become Peach's thing.
Agree on all these points. They're fine, but there are more creative options to pull from Toad's past. Hell, if Peach is allowed Toad Guard, which is nothing more than a gag that gets less and less funny with time, why not bring Toad's Bazooka into battle from SMRPG?
I've been having an awful hard time finding out who owns the rights to SMRPG. Simultaneously, it's still old stuff, I'm waiting for something that's "So Toad and everybody* knows it."
In which case Peach's thing would be "Get kidnapped", Mario would be "Beat up Bowser", Bowser's would be "Kidnap Peach" and Luigi's would be "Get ignored for comic effect".
(I love Luigi)
If we take out all smash-related answers, I think we'd find plenty of Ghost-hunting from Luigi, plenty of fire-breathing from Bowser, and possibly some FLUDD for Mario. Again, though, all 4 of the current "Mario" reps are just "needed no matter what" because of what the Mario series is.
In that case Propeller cap and golden mushroom does work for Toad since in the promotional material for the NSMBWii games Toad is the one showcased using the former, and golden mushroom is an exclusive item to him and Toadette; both Toads.
The propeller cap argument seems super weak (promotional material..) and the golden mushroom thing is 'aiiight.'
Waiting for something that's "so Toad and everybody knows it," alongside of course easy to translate into smash. The only way I could see a golden mushroom translating into smash is if it was a.. special move with a cooldown in which each time you press B after already using it, it "pushes toad forwards quick" for damage.
It's really not. Nor is it hard to spot when you played the game. At all. It's not even that obscure!
It's a really old game. Lol. Same with SMW to be honest (but the few years, but more importantly the different console, make a pretty big difference.)
Damn. That's a shame; I was looking forward to your thoughts regarding my section about including references for the parental gamer to enjoy whilst playing alongside the next generation in future games. Would you not like to see a reference to Super Mario World or Mario 64 appear three consoles from now and notice your sprog playing something that you held dear in your childhood?
Would be cool for them, but we gotta remember that we're not here to impress the parental gamer, and the parental gamer likely got the game for their child's sake, not for their own.
Obviously this relates to 3D World coming out with them bringing back the older abilities of the characters. But I'd like your opinion on whether or not you believe bringing back ideas that worked well in the past is a good or bad thing?
Is it good because it allows for you to gather the best parts of the past and try something new with it, or is it bad because Nintendo are going back to try and tested formulas that they think will sell easily?
(I'm aware this is Nintendo's stance on everything already guys before anyone points this out)
If I was Nintendo, I would recycle success if possible. But this question seems terribly irrelevant, because you don't need to convince me (at this point) that Toad has some options that he can use that, with a little digging or perhaps the right experiences in gaming, are "kinda cool" and "recognizable."
I honestly don't think that's that big a problem. If Toad is known for using it along with the Mario bros, and the Mario bros don't use them, then why shouldn't Toad use it? It's something familiar that people will at least link to Mario games, even if it's not specific to Toad.
I've said that Toad should use it. I'm looking for something that's "so Toad and everyone knows it."
That's the thing, since Toad IS fast and strong in his own games, making him fast and strong in Smash bros would make perfect sense and would represent a part of Toad's character at the same time (it's not like making Mewtwo slow when he's fast in his games, it actually makes sense).
I've said that if Toad gets in, he should be fast and strong. My question is whether Toad has "fighter's characteristics" that are "so Toad and everyone knows it" which would give him "Solid moveset potential while still being the Toad everyone knows and loves."
The thing about representing Toad is that, since he's never been the main character (except in Wario's Woods), the most recognizable things he does are also done by other characters, so you can't have something that makes people go "Oh, I know that!" without it being shared by multiple characters. Does that make the moves less iconic? Not at all. It's just like Mario having fireballs; they aren't specific to him, but they're an iconic part of Mario games.
I don't totally disagree. I've merely stated that it's not as good as 100% unique, and that him using those items in the game is "well he uses those items," as opposed to "this is what Toad would do."
In Mario Kart, Toad is typically a lightweight, fast character. His speed is mainly based in his acceleration, however. I don't have anything to say about MSM, since I honestly don't know a lot about it, myself.
SM3DW is not necessarily too new. Want to know why? We have content in the game already from newly released titles: Sonic has a Lost Worlds stage (when it was just released today), we have Xerneas as a Pokeball (X and Y came out very recently), and there'll likely be more game content to come. I would bet that development on SM3DW was started right after they were done with SM3DL, so Sakurai would've likely been informed of it.
Well, I'm convinced it's a benefit to Toad then. Now I'm going to ask if it's going to be as hugely recognizable to the target audience, as a generic remake, than the legendary [duo] of the "current main title" of Pokemon, or etc.
Not at all! It's not a bad source for personal character traits, and it's a title worthy of a reference since it's Toad's only game where he's the sole protagonist. The bombs are something very unique that only a character like Bomberman has anything similar to, and he's obviously not getting in, so why not use it as a move? It's unique to him, after all.
Anything that isn't good is bad. Isaac's moveset potential is a strength for him because what Isaac does is "soooo him." Toad.. you have to dig very deep, or hope for something that honestly feels like it could be filled by anything with arms and legs.
It has never been unique to Toad, but he was the strongest character in SMB2, and, as such, the grabbing and throwing opponents is most associated with him. And I don't think it's a coincidence that it returns in NSMBWii, but that's debatable. Regardless, no other character has a grabbing move that works the same way.
I think this is a horrendous argument. Stemming from an ancient game that very few target audience gamers have paid the same note to as a major title (because the remakes are not major titles in anyway) and using a relatively basic "strength boost" as a justification for calling something that every Mario Character playable in new games can do as "most associated with him" just doesn't fit. I'd be 10x more inclined to say it's most associated with Mario because, to even imagine having Toad use that move, you need at least 3 people playing the game. (Mario comes first, then Luigi.) Toad's roles in the recent games has been stand-in, just "pretending to be Mario" and not truly being Toad.
Of course it has to do with Toad! He uses it in three different games, and no other Mario character does it in SSB. And anything that is only Toad's (Wario's Woods, Golden Mushroom, Spores) you have dismissed. You can have something that's more iconic, is not used by any character in SSB, but is not unique to Toad in his own game (like Peach's turnips), or you can have something unique that is not instantly recognizable, but is interesting and can be used. I think that Toad has some very viable moves that represent parts of the Mario games that are not already represented in Smash Bros, and that's where his strengths lie. It does not matter if it's unique to Toad; if he can use them, they're viable for making a moveset. Heck, even stuff that he doesn't use is viable if we're going by the precedent set in Super Smash Bros., since Zelda uses moves that she has never been able to use, even if they're in her game.
I have said numerous times that I'm looking for something that's "so unique to Toad."
And I have said numerous times, if Toad absolutely has to be in, he can extrapolate all he wants. I have never made an issue of "setting precedents." Zelda "absolutely had to be in."
Land is viable for sure, even if World is not. Land is the one for the 3DS that has been released for some time now.
Waiting for something "So Toad and everybody knows it."
In SMB2, the Power Jump Squat was most useful for Toad, as he was the weakest jumper and could not reach certain areas easily without it. It is also not used by any character yet to be in Smash Bros., so it's more than viable.
Ancient game, nobody knows it, not "So Toad" because it's "So SMB2, and Toad just so happens to be in SMB2 (because he's one of multiple characters.)"
First of all, pulling turnips has never been unique to Peach (just as the Power Squat Jump isn't for Toad), and it's never really been a defining move until Smash Bros. Secondly, I imagine Toad might be at least a conceptual clone of Peach and the Mario bros. (just to save development time), so it's just another option.
It's an option, is it iconic and something "so Toad and everybody knows it?"
Opinion. Fireballs are a thing, so powerups are completely viable for Toad. I wouldn't use them, myself, but that's a preference thing on my part, since he has plenty of other things to pull from.
Mario is the default "fireball" user, and it is first and foremost associated with him. Anyone after him only uses it as a stand-in, because Mario is indeed the main character of his own series.
]Actually, Toad uses mushrooms for his special abilities in multiple Mario Kart games.
Quote about Super Mario Kart:
"Whenever Toad is left as a CPU or a non player character, his special ability is throwing Poison Mushrooms that make another player shrink when hit (an ability that he shares with Princess Toadstool)."
About Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
"His and Toadette's special item is the Golden Mushroom."
About Mario Kart Arcade GP:
"Toad makes an appearance in arcade exclusive game Mario Kart Arcade GP as a playable racer. Featured as a light weight character, Toad's special items in this game are the Miracle Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Mushroom Hammer, and Mushroom Powder."
So, no, it's not just because "he's a mushroom." It's because they're special moves that he uses in his games.
Not just because he's a mushroom, even if the original concept was made because he was a mushroom.
Great, so use them how they were used in their games. How well will this translate into fighting?
"While it is not common within the Mario series, Toad has also been able to emit spores as his own unique special ability. This ability is given a preview in the earlier games when he is hit by a powerful force as seen in Mario Tennis for the Nintendo 64 and the Super Smash Bros. (though it is the latter game series that he is shown to be able to use this technique as an offensive attack). However, Mario Sports Mix (for the Wii) further explores Toad's hidden talent by allowing him to use spores to cause mushrooms to sprout from the ground. Toad is capable of using this move as a recovery move. Toad is also able to create a shield of spores as a deflective move. Additionally, Toad's special move in this game involves him emitting many spores to cause gargantuan mushrooms to grow from the ground. These large mushrooms are then able to move in a rotational pattern, and are able to knock out any opponent who attempts to get closer to the mushrooms. Toad completes his attack by throwing a shot full of fungi material at his goal."
See, he uses this as his own, unique special ability.
Every character that has ever existed in everything (okay, obvious hyperbole) has some special/unique ability when you dig for it. Your quote very clearly says "while not common within the mario series." It needs to be iconic, it has to be something that goes along with Toad anytime someone moderately familiar with Toad thinks about Toad.
None of which are used by other characters in Smash Bros., making them both viable if you want to, even though he has enough elsewhere if you don't want to use that.
If Toad is in the game, then Toad should use these items. Sakurai's Four Pillars of Appeal, Style, Uniqueness, and Balance are the first and foremost things to look at. Appeal, Toad has doing alright. Style, he has the benefit of being a Mario Character, but something doesn't seem very "fighter-like" about him. Uniqueness, a huge aspect of this correlates with what they're bringing to the table, and what they're actually going to do. Pikachu using electricity is something he brings to the table (but using Skull bash is not, even though he can, it's canon, it fits reasonably well, and it's makes sense when looking into it.) The reason Pikachu brings this to the table is because it's with Pikachu by the default, it's what Pikachu is all about. It's what Pikachu is known for. Toad has nothing like that. Balance, I don't think Toad has anything going for him here.
The reason I keep downplaying his moves as helping his chances is because Toad is severely lacking, when compared to other prospects or previous inclusions, in the most important regards. In order for his moveset to be his saving grace, he's going to have to have something pretty hardcore, and nothing has been provided like that.
Has my elaborating on these moves shown you that they are personal and unique to Toad yet? I need your feedback before I respond to this. I believe the mushrooms, spores, and bombs all fit as iconic to Toad specifically.
No, because you're misinterpreting what is meant to be said by "personal and unique to Toad." I don't think you can even remotely call these iconic, and as I've stated, I'd be willing to place money on it. It's a question of whether a substantial amount of people would respond about that when surveying general Nintendo gamers.
Even something like fireballs for Mario is more "Mario" that basically anything Toad has been offered is "Toad" (defined by the mindset I presume is carried by the target audience.)
EX: "What are three things Bowser is known for doing?"
Erasing smash bros references, I think the top 3 responses would be: "Kidnap princess peach, breathe fire, and ride a go-kart." As such, his fire is "so Bowser."
I don't think you'll find anything fighting related or unique/personal (in the way you put it) that's iconic about Toad.
Power Squat Jump, grabbing and throwing enemies, using items, using powerups. I can come up with other moves for the physical attacks if you want.
Can you come up with something that's even remotely close to Yoshi's "Eating and Egging" or Isaac's "Djinn & Psynergy"? It's been well-established that, if Toad were to be included, he has some things to dig for to represent him, but he's not really bringing anything to the table by default/without digging. You're not going to dig for a moveset for a character unless that character has passed preliminary requirements, and to be honest, I don't think Toad would pass the preliminaries (to the point where Sakurai would start looking at things like Wario's Woods are making arguments for him using certain moves from SMB2 as opposed to Luigi using them, if they were to be used.
The viewpoint that you MUST have something "so Toad" in order to add Toad (using your narrow criteria, specifically). I expect Toad to get in due to his iconicness (he is the most iconic and recognizable Nintendo character left, period) and overall Nintendo importance, much like Peach in Melee. Toad is not a character like Mr. Game and Watch whose main appeal is his diverse moveset; he is a character who is a Nintendo All-Star that deserves to be added even more so than characters like King K. Rool and Palutena. The moveset comes second. Since he has moveset potential that is perfectly viable, there is no reason to exclude him. Not having the most amazing moveset in the world is not something that characters are excluded for (see Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, R.O.B.), even if having amazing moveset potentialis something that some characters are included for (see Mr. Game and Watch).
The viewpoint that you MUST have something "so Toad" in order to add Toad (using your narrow criteria, specifically). I expect Toad to get in due to his iconicness (he is the most iconic and recognizable Nintendo character left, period) and overall Nintendo importance, much like Peach in Melee. Toad is not a character like Mr. Game and Watch whose main appeal is his diverse moveset; he is a character who is a Nintendo All-Star that deserves to be added even more so than characters like King K. Rool and Palutena. The moveset comes second. Since he has moveset potential that is perfectly viable, there is no reason to exclude him. Not having the most amazing moveset in the world is not something that characters are excluded for (see Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, R.O.B.), even if having amazing moveset potentialis something that some characters are included for (see Mr. Game and Watch).
If you think I've been saying a "character must have something 'so them'" to be included then I'm concerned you haven't been reading my posts.
I've said that when it comes to the most important factors (appeal, Nintendo importance, etc) I don't think Toad "has" to be in, so in order to justify adding him we have to look at more secondary things.
If you think I've been saying a "character must have something 'so them'" to be included then I'm concerned you haven't been reading my posts.
I've said that when it comes to the most important factors (appeal, Nintendo importance, etc) I don't think Toad "has" to be in, so in order to justify adding him we have to look at more secondary things.
Well, then, I misunderstood, but I still disagree.
I think Toad is more important and appealing to the casual Nintendo gamer than Ridley or K. Rool by a long shot. I don't think the secondary stuff is necessary, myself.
