Toad parade - Oh boy it's Els--- I mean, Rosalina

[Morbi]

Well, then, I misunderstood, but I still disagree.

I think Toad is more important and appealing to the casual Nintendo gamer than Ridley or K. Rool by a long shot. I don't think the secondary stuff is necessary, myself.

I agree with this sentiment. Toad is far more iconic. However, I must disagree with the very last sentence. The secondary stuff is necessary, if it wasn't, Toad would already be in the game. Popularity isn't everything when it comes down to it, it is obviously a significant portion.

 

[Pacack]

I agree with this sentiment. Toad is far more iconic. However, I must disagree with the very last sentence. The secondary stuff is necessary, if it wasn't, Toad would already be in the game. Popularity isn't everything when it comes down to it, it is obviously a significant portion.

*as necessary

The secondary stuff is necessary, but not as necessary as the iconic stuff.

 

[EddyBearr]

Well, then, I misunderstood, but I still disagree.

I think Toad is more important and appealing to the casual Nintendo gamer than Ridley or K. Rool by a long shot. I don't think the secondary stuff is necessary, myself.

I dunno, I feel like they both beat Toad in appeal (and with the little empirical evidence we have, they do, by quite a bit [polls]). In regards to Nintendo importance, sure, but I don't think that's an urgent variable.

I think what Ridley and K. Rool bring to the table far outweighs what Toad would bring to the table, making them much more likely.

 

[Morbi]

I dunno, I feel like they both beat Toad in appeal (and with the little empirical evidence we have, they do, by quite a bit [polls]). In regards to Nintendo importance, sure, but I don't think that's an urgent variable.

I think what Ridley and K. Rool bring to the table far outweighs what Toad would bring to the table, making them much more likely.

He is talking about the casual Nintendo gamers, not people who vote on polls or participate in online discussions (which is slightly less casual). So we don't have much empirical data, I would actually argue that we don't have any.

 

[Pacack]

I dunno, I feel like they both beat Toad in appeal (and with the little empirical evidence we have, they do, by quite a bit [polls]). In regards to Nintendo importance, sure, but I don't think that's an urgent variable.

I think what Ridley and K. Rool bring to the table far outweighs what Toad would bring to the table, making them much more likely.

I honestly think that you may be letting personal bias get in the way. It seems fairly obvious to me that Toad is far more recognizable, iconic, and important to Nintendo than Ridley or K. Rool.

Let's look at Ridley's positives and negatives first:

Positives:
Very appealing as a fighter. (Biggest positive by a longshot)
"Main" antagonist, even though he often assumes lesser roles. (also big)
Highly requested.

Negatives:
From a low-selling franchise when compared to other Nintendo series.
Not the final boss of any of the games he's in.
Not obviously Samus' nemesis unless you go into things like the comics.
Seemingly unintelligent and bland and, as such, more difficult to relate with. (unlike King K. Rool's obviously vibrant personality)
Somewhat more difficult to program than other characters.
Not a playable character

King K. Rool:

Positives:
Very appealing as a fighter.
Tons of personality, making him memorable.
(former) Primary antagonist.
Highly Requested.

Negatives:
Not been present in any recent Donkey Kong games, despite being the main antagonist. (major issue when factoring how iconic a character is)
Not as well-selling a series as Mario. (no duh, I know)
Not a playable character.

Toad:

Positives:
Playable character in both main series games and spin-offs. (huge plus, since Sakurai tends to add protagonists over antagonists: See Falco and Wolf, Luigi and Bowser, Lucas and Porky/Giygas/Giegue, Diddy Kong and King K. Rool, Zelda planned over Ganondorf.)
From Nintendo's biggest series.
Very recognizable. (Debatable, but, as Toad is a protagonist in many Mario games, he is more recognizable than another protagonists from non-Mario games such as Dixie Kong at the very least. Likely also more recognizable to the general population than Ridley or King K. Rool due to appearance in Mario titles.)

Negatives:
Less appealing than Ridley or King K. Rool
Lacking personality. (Not terribly important in the long run, and debatable.)
Not highly requested. (May be due to pessimism of Toad fanbase, since Toad has already appeared as a move in previous titles.)

With this, I may agree that King K. Rool is on nearly equal grounds with Toad, but Ridley has more negatives than Toad. Even then, Toad is more recognizable overall than those two simply because of the popularity of the games he's in.

 

[EddyBearr]

It seems fairly obvious to me that Toad is far more recognizable, iconic, and important to Nintendo than Ridley or K. Rool.
Toad:
Negatives:
Less appealing than Ridley or King K. Rool

The quoted portions are what I have said.

Recognizable, iconic (as a character,) and important to Nintendo are all factors, but I think Appeal is more important than any of those when it comes to creating a Smash character.

 

[Pacack]

The quoted portions are what I have said.

Recognizable, iconic (as a character,) and important to Nintendo are all factors, but I think Appeal is more important than any of those when it comes to creating a Smash character.

That is where we disagree, then. I think appeal is second to all-star status. Mainly because Smash is a game of Nintendo all-stars.

 

[Berserker.]

Toad is highly requested compared to other Mario characters.

In the league of the tops? Not so.

And yes-sur-ree, he has the appeal but it ain't nearly as good as you know: Ridley, K. Rool, Mewtwo and those other guys (Palutena and ... Little Mac? I think?)

So.... erm.... Yeah, since those guys have much more appeal (Maybe by a lot or by a little), that's trouble for Toad.

Restatement : This isn't to say that he doesn't appeal that much. In fact, he very much does have appeal but sometimes, it's overshadowed by those 3 notably.

On the bright side, just play Mario 3D World.

 

[Pacack]

Toad is highly requested compared to other Mario characters.

In the league of the tops? Not so.

And yes-sur-ree, he has the appeal but it ain't nearly as good as you know: Ridley, K. Rool, Mewtwo and those other guys (Palutena and ... Little Mac? I think?)

So.... erm.... Yeah, since those guys have much more appeal (Maybe by a lot or by a little), that's trouble for Toad.

Restatement : This isn't to say that he doesn't appeal that much. In fact, he very much does have appeal but sometimes, it's overshadowed by those 3 notably.

On the bright side, just play Mario 3D World.

His appeal is not as high as that of Ridley and King K. Rool. This much is true.

However, when it comes to being iconic, recognizable, and important to Nintendo, though, he has them beat.

 

[EddyBearr]

That is where we disagree, then. I think appeal is second to all-star status. Mainly because Smash is a game of Nintendo all-stars.

The only reason all-star status would be worth it is if it created appeal. Sakurai has made it clear that Appeal is one of the top 4 pieces.

I don't think this is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, as opposed to simply reading what Sakurai has said.

Toad is highly requested compared to other Mario characters.

At this point in time, Toad is 3rd in regards to Nintendo characters. Both Bowser Jr. and Waluigi have him beat. Of course, this is using terribly faulty polls skewed by Smashboards. So.. in the grand scheme of things, he is highly requested. He isn't Rosalina or Daisy or Shy guy, but when it comes to serious possibilities, he might be middling.

Toad's appeal is definitely existent, though. Similar to the appeal of... Takamaru.

 

[Pacack]

The only reason all-star status would be worth it is if it created appeal. Sakurai has made it clear that Appeal is one of the top 4 pieces.

I don't think this is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, as opposed to simply reading what Sakurai has said.


At this point in time, Toad is 3rd in regards to Nintendo characters. Both Bowser Jr. and Waluigi have him beat. Of course, this is using terribly faulty polls skewed by Smashboards. So.. in the grand scheme of things, he is highly requested. He isn't Rosalina or Daisy or Shy guy, but when it comes to serious possibilities, he might be middling.

Toad's appeal is definitely existent, though. Similar to the appeal of... Takamaru.

You may very well be correct, you may very well be incorrect...but I am far too tired to actually interpret any information right now, so I will take my leave.

I will respond later. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Berserker.]

At this point in time, Toad is 3rd in regards to Nintendo characters. Both Bowser Jr. and Waluigi have him beat. Of course, this is using terribly faulty polls skewed by Smashboards. So.. in the grand scheme of things, he is highly requested. He isn't Rosalina or Daisy or Shy guy, but when it comes to serious possibilities, he might be middling.

Toad's appeal is definitely existent, though. Similar to the appeal of... Takamaru.

Toad's one of the top guys when it comes to requests. Probably middle of the highly requested pack.


Waluigi has one hell of a fan base. Definitely beats Toad by a slight moderate amount but he has an existing very visible hate base. Regardless, he's .... YEAH. I'll leave it at that.

Jr. is not as requested as Toad. Assured of that. As of now? Probably more since we're a bit pessimistic :|. In most polls, I see Toad topping the charts in Mario series but that's what I see.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Note: A few stances have been swayed while writing this post, but I'm not gonna edit the post accordingly.
2nd Note: I think I've made this point before, but I look at things not from the viewpoint of an artist who wants to create something beautiful and meaningful, but as a ruthless and unapologizing businessman who's only intention is to create a game that will resonate well enough to translate into more sales and better reviews from today's audience.


Had a busy two weeks messing with pathogens, but I'm back with a vengeance!

Oh cool, you're back. Been a bit quieter around here.

Okay! Let's dive in!

So from an unapologizing businessman's point of view, what's better to include:

An instantly recognisable character from your best selling franchise with lots of tie-in promotional material that has appeared in three games in the past year and has sold better than any other game you've released for your new console...

OR

A character from a lesser known series that only a select few will recognise and may or may not have a new game in the next few years, and that's previous installments and popularity have been on the decline?

I've said that Waluigi's moveset prospects are kinda bad (though his practical moveset potential is higher). I argued in this thread that I support Waluigi for balance (Marios Bros. and Wario Bros.) Simultaneously, while Daisy is also arguably missing for Balance purposes, she's also arguably not by being a palette swap, and alongside that, it's very easy for Peach to palette swap Daisy, but there's no one who can palette swap Waluigi.

Balance that is entirely subjective. I think Toad brings more balance than either of those being the last remaining playable protagonist character in the Mario series, the last of the "Big 8", and the only Mario character remaining to have starred in his own game(arguably two; I forgot about the Japanese only Satellete thing) and he's not based on another character as a crutch like the two Mario spinoff characters. I DO actually like both Waluigi and Daisy(Daisy more than Peach even) but I don't see how either of these would add balance. Again though it's subjective.

It's also notable that Luigi lacks in moveset department, but he's in because he's Luigi. When breaking "he's luigi" into parts, it's stuff like appeal, importance, and balance. Waluigi is nowhere near Luigi's level, but I think Waluigi does warrant a spot.

Agreed Luigi needs to be in the game. He's the second most popular Mario character after Yoshi in polls I've seen. Unless Waluigi appears in a Mario/Luigi main game(like he'd of been perfect as a boss for Luigi U, Luigi's Mansion 2 or playable character in New Super Mario Bros. 2; a game that should of been New Super Wario Bros. and I'm sticking to that) I can't personally support his inclusion.

I'm pretty sure Krystal's staff is far more iconic to Krystal than anything Toad has done, and I'd place a bet on that, but we'd need to poll some core gamers at some nintendo convention.

Perhaps you're right here. Especially since Peach has essentially taken the Pluck style(despite being the worst character at it).

Another issue facing Toad is unlike Krystal he's used LOTS of things. Think about it. If he only used say...the Propeller Cap, then he'd be known as the Propeller Cap guy like Yoshi is the egg based guy. His jack of all trades abilties however work against him since Toad has been known to use all the powerups Mario can. Unfortunately with being skilled with lots of things means you become master of none.

I think I just compared Toad to Red Mage.

I haven't argued that Toad can't use a pluck style move, and indeed I've said he could, but it's really missing the "This is what makes him Toad" aspect that most characters have with an amount of moves (and many characters have with the most iconic moves in history [ex: kirby]). Sometimes it's a conglomerate, but only if the character is known for using a conglomerate of items (EX: Link)

Now to be fair to Toad; he's used Pluck far more than Peach has now:
Super Mario Bros. 2
Wario's Woods
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
New Super Mario Bros. Wii U
New Super Luigi U
Although we don't know if it also returns for 3D World, that surely beats Peach's singular time of Pluck style use. Arguably two if you count Super Princess Peach, but Parry was really the one plucking there.

This is another reason I think continuing to give Peach a pluck based moveset is stupid. It's the same reasoning as why Ganondorf is still a Falcon Clone; because he was one before and it might upset people to change things. Black Shadow is often brought up to take Falcondorfs moveset and allow Ganondorf to be GANONDORF, and in the same way I feel Peach SHOULD be using the iconic moves from HER game by this point.

In fact this is one thing I don't get about Sakurai's decision making; he changes stuff no one complained about and yet given the opportunity to alter a character to make them feel more like themselves he doesn't.
Prime example outside Ganondorf is Mario's FLUDD; something no one asked for, and not really used by Mario outside one game. This would be seen as more understandable if he'd given Luigi his Poltergust, something he's used far more than Mario's FLUDD(in two Luigi's Mansion Games, references in Mario Power Tennis, Mario Kart DS, etc, etc) and is more "So Luigi".

What's more "So Peach"? The moves she used in her own (surprisingly good) game, or moves she shared with the Mario brothers and Toad(who has been seen using it more than the others thanks to Wario's Woods)?

I don't think so, but I don't think Luigi or Mario either use their "E.Gadd contraptions." The more time that passes, the less her staff is useful. Thankfully, the 2002-2005 crowd is still around to purchase Smash (myself included,)
As it was Krystal's introductory game and was central to Krystal as a character in the game, it's pretty good for her still. Rather, her appearances in newer Star Fox games I'd say doesn't take away the staff aspect, but rather gives her some "space animal" stereotypes she'd otherwise have been missing (blaster/reflector/LANDDMASTER!)

Now I don't know a lot about Starfox admittedly, so I'll take your word on her subsequent appearences. However Luigi uses his E.Gadd contraption multiple times; in Luigi's Mansion, Luigi's Mansion 2: Dark Moon, Mario Power Tennis, Nintendoland...

...okay so Nintendoland is a Mii dressed up as Luigi using it, but it still shows it's synomnous with Luigi at this point.

What was Mario's game within Nintendoland? Being chased by Toads.

I don't disagree, and I've already stated many times that Toad's options can create a "moveset," but it's kinda disingenuous because no matter what, Toad will never be the one and only brother of Mr. Nintendo, or Mr. Nintendo.

And nor will any other potential newcomer. Bowser Jr, despite his efforts will never be Mr. Nintendo's greatest enemy either but I won't hold that against him.

Toad's a character that can keep up with the Mario brothers within the game though. He's not trying to BE a Mario brother, he just can keep up with them and there's only a handful of characters that can do that; Wario and Yoshi being the only other two that come to mind.

He doesn't, and we went over C. Falcon. We'd agreed a plausible explanation is that he's the "basic fighter" stereotype, but more evidence would be lovely.
I've noted that him using some of the items is acceptable, and I agree it's not the favorite option. The favorite option would be if he had something that was so overtly Toad that it should obviously be important to his moveset, kinda like how Eating & Egging is so overtly Yoshi that it should obviously be important to Yoshi's moveset.

I'm referring to things they do. EX: Yoshi does his iconic specials, and anyone who knows Yoshi is like "That's so Yoshi!" Even if subconsciously.

Of course it would be best, but unfortunately Toad whilst recognisable, popular and iconic has never been given an ability that seperates him from the Mario brothers. He can do all the things the Mario brothers can do, but that seems more because it was easier to keep playable characters similar.

Yoshi, as much as I love him, was first and foremost designed in mind as a power up, hence why he was given unique abilities; he's essentially a living version of a Fire Flower or a Tanooki Suit; something that's been added to give Mario(and Luigi) a unique ability when obtained. If Toad had been a glorified power up with spores from the get go rather than an equal terms character to the Mario brothers I wonder if we'd be having this discussion.

Toad would then probably have something more unique to him, but unless he was as popular as Yoshi, he may not be even thought of as a playable option.

If Toad is in the game, he should be fast. But is Toad being known (pretty obscurely I'd say) for being "fast" (Pikachu is not obscure, speed-wise) enough to give his moveset/physics/etc. potential some solid points? Paying note to the idea that almost any Nintendo character has a few unique characteristics (heck, any character in anything,) and has plenty of "practical" moveset potential.

Again, you say obscurely fast. What is this even? Nintendoland has a game where you chase Mario down as Toad. Toad is nearly always a speedy character in spinoffs. He has good acceleration in Mario Kart; something associated with fast characters like Yoshi. Super Mario Bros. 2 which was released as the first game on the Game Boy Advanced.

Of course speed alone isn't enough to give Toad an edge but since he's also been shown to stack multiple enemies/items/things in Wario's Woods(check Nintendo Direct on your 3DS this week for a video, even) as well as the ability to run up walls, I'd say it gives him something we haven't seen thus far from a gameplay style at least and is something no other character(as far as I'm aware) is currently using.

Incidentally; Pikachu actually isn't even that fast as a Pokemon, especially considering he's electric. 90 base speed for an electric type is pitiful. He's even the slowest of the electric rodents aside from pre-evo Pichu.

Undeniably (well okay, we're all assuming) he knows it exists. The question is, had he already decided on Toad before he learned about it?

That is the question. I'd guess 3D World had been planned for some time though before the Smash Roster was decided upon. I find it doubtful they only started work on the game this year anyway.

If Toad got in, use what Toad has at his disposal. Does what Toad has at his disposal give him "solid/unique/personal/"So-Obviously-Toad" moveset potential? I don't think so.

Think I covered this earlier regarding it's unfortunate, that Sakurai has missed out on things that are So-Obviously-Other characters before and that Toad, unlike Yoshi(my favourite mind you) is not a powerup first and foremost.

I'm not, though. Toad can use it, and to be honest it's probably his best option, but generally speaking (not specifically speaking about Toad's options,) is it a truly "good" option to define him on?

Depends. If it's mushroom based, yes. Because his special items are always mushrooms; Golden Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Mushroom Hammer that one time...I'd argue the Propeller Mushroom is a BORDERLINE acceptable power up for Toad and mostly because of the promotional material making it more synomnous with him than either Mario brother. If it's something like...Ice Flower? Not really, but it's an option no one else is able to use...unless Luigi's green fireball alters.

Balance and style. He fits in, he feels like he's missing based on the roster, he's unique enough and nintendo enough while...shapely enough, to be able to fit into the game very easily.

Subjective. I think Toad fits in better than any other potential Mario newcomer. Saturngamer thinks Paper Mario fits in better than any other potential Mario newcomer. Sakurai may think Dr. Mario fits in better than any other potential Mario newcomer(he's wacky like that).

Link
Real Link
Okay, Example.

Firstly; fff. Like the "Links". Secondly; I thought you meant other PEOPLE above your head not items, which is something Toad does a lot of. Carrying your buddy above your head is not an ideal way to keep your spine in one piece.

Didn't think about some of the Toad maps from Mario Parties, so that's a bit more. It's still missing the iconic thing, or at least anything that would stick with someone pretty well EX: with Mario's dair, you have to dig a bit to realize it's from his old spin jump, but with Mario's FLUDD, it's pretty quick for anyone who's ever known of SMS exactly what it is.

I sort of agree here. I'd almost completely agree, but I don't think I know anyone who doesn't know what Mario Party is.

Mario: He's in even if he never moved in a game, ever. He's mr. Nintendo. With that said, his special moves are all "so mario." Cape, Fludd, tornado, fire ball, and the "coin jump" all are something a person could see on Mario and say, almost in an instant, "Yep, Mario would totally do that".
Luigi: Mr. Nintendo's brother is in no matter what. If he gets his Vacuum, then he's got something like Mario, but until then, the only thing feels any bit "luigi" is the green fireball (and that's almost cheating.)
Peach: In no matter what, she's in. Her moves are obscure, and mostly impersonal (though there is the floating, and to be honest, floating is much more likely to stick in your mind than "stronger".) Kinda bad moveset potential.
Yoshi: We agree, Yoshi is a boss.
Bowser: Fire is cliche, but it's also 100% Bowser. The practical moveset is through the roof.
Bowser Jr. I doubt he'd use his paint-brush. Maybe as a Final Smash.
Wario: Wario's doing alright.

To be honest, of Mario Characters, only Luigi, Peach, and Bowser Jr. have poor personal moveset. Luigi's ability to extrapolate from Mario obviously greatly exceeds Toad's, Peach has some "only Peach" stuff that, if you played her games, make so much sense. Bowser Jr.. I think he'd just be a mini-bowser, but the final smash would probably be a paint-brush, so that might be "so him." I honestly think Toad is lacking for all of these.

Agreed on most of the characters, but is fire 100% Bowser if Bowser Jr also uses it? This is about the only reason I don't count it as being Bowser's unique thing; because Jr. jacks it. Similarly I can't agree on Mario's moves being "so Mario" if Luigi can use them too.
Peach does have floating, but that's it. Arguably those who want King Boo may suggest he's more known for that than she is.

Peach's only Peach thing is floating though. And using a frying pan. The rest of her moveset as we've is not "So Peach" since Toad can do half the things she can; spores, pluck, tennis racket, golf club...seriously; get her some Super Princess Peach moves already, so Toad can use what's he's best known for and Peach can use what she's best known for.

Luigi's moveset COULD be more Luigi, but once again; no Poltergust(aka the one thing that is 100%, truly and utterly unique to Luigi) or Thunderhand(if you wanted to seperate the brothers B-moves, they could of dipped into Mario + Luigi), or a flashlight stun or...Luigi has the potential to be totally unique whilst true to his games, it's just utterly missed at every chance.

Tom Nook advocates are cray cray. Anna, not so much. I'm opting for her due to gender, recency, appeal, franchise, practical moveset, personality, and to fill the "fast" sword cliche (Ike is slow, Marth is probably middle.) It just feels like there has to be a 3rd FE rep to me, and I think Anna would be best.

I thought Marth was meant to be the fast one?

I don't think an unreleased re-make of a game from a popular series from a company that's made it a habit to re-release old games for no apparent reason other than to re-release them means that the fans are remembering details from the game well. It might be memorable to some guys at Nintendo, but they're not out core audience. Lol.

It's not a re-make of SMB2. At all. I haven't seen a single vegetable been thrown in gameplay footage yet for 3D World. It borrows from that game, sure, with the option to have four characters with varying abilities. That's the only connection thus far:
You're not fighting Wart, this isn't Subcon, I have yet to see Birdo or Shy Guy, Bowser's the main villain and you're trying to save, quite originally, a princess from his clutches.

What 3D World is; a collection of the best bits from games from Mario's long past, brought together in one attractive package.
-Tons of powerups from past games
-Four playable characters (whom I'm guessing were picked because people enjoyed playing as them rather than some) with unique individual aspects to them
-The ability to play through as ANY of those characters(no longer stuck with just Mario in single player; a gripe I had in NSMBW since he's my least favourite of the bunch)

And again, SMB2 isn't an obscure game. It was the first game out for the Game Boy Advanced even. If Mario 64 is new enough to be considered not forgotten, I doubt the GBA is.

I don't totally disagree with much here, but the "pick item/turnips" shtick from SMB2 has become Peach's thing.

Indeed it has. Stupidly.

I've been having an awful hard time finding out who owns the rights to SMRPG. Simultaneously, it's still old stuff, I'm waiting for something that's "So Toad and everybody* knows it."

I believe it's Square Enix. Is that asterix meant to be there? I scrolled down to see if I could find where the footer note was, but nothing.

If we take out all smash-related answers, I think we'd find plenty of Ghost-hunting from Luigi, plenty of fire-breathing from Bowser, and possibly some FLUDD for Mario. Again, though, all 4 of the current "Mario" reps are just "needed no matter what" because of what the Mario series is.

Agreed. All four reps that are currently there, should be there. It's the movesets I can't agree on for Peach and Luigi.

The propeller cap argument seems super weak (promotional material..) and the golden mushroom thing is 'aiiight.'
Waiting for something that's "so Toad and everybody knows it," alongside of course easy to translate into smash. The only way I could see a golden mushroom translating into smash is if it was a.. special move with a cooldown in which each time you press B after already using it, it "pushes toad forwards quick" for damage.

Propeller Cap, to be fair, was an important part of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and probably the most useful of the new power ups. Toad's big come back was in that game, and his promotional materal using it is no worse than Luigi using fireballs. That are green. It's not the strongest, but it's not exactly obscure to Toad either thanks to the heavy promotion the games get and Toad is nearly always wearing the cap.

It's a really old game. Lol. Same with SMW to be honest (but the few years, but more importantly the different console, make a pretty big difference.)

Why does age matter? As I've stated twice in this reply it was the first game on the GBA, and the first hand held game to give Mario and friends a voice.

Super Mario Bros. 2 isn't an obscure title like Takamaru's Muramase castle or an obscure Mario title like Mario is Missing. It's even fondly remembered; it's not like Zelda II which is often heavily disliked. It's probably better known than even Golden Sun, because it's Mario and it's a main game even if it was heavily translated from Doki Doki Panic.

Would be cool for them, but we gotta remember that we're not here to impress the parental gamer, and the parental gamer likely got the game for their child's sake, not for their own.

Nintendo is a family company. Why appeal to just the youngest generation? Their whole schtick with the Wii was to get families playing together...it might even be why(but this is a guess) there's such a heavy surge of multiplayer co-op Mario games coming out right now.

If I was Nintendo, I would recycle success if possible. But this question seems terribly irrelevant, because you don't need to convince me (at this point) that Toad has some options that he can use that, with a little digging or perhaps the right experiences in gaming, are "kinda cool" and "recognizable."

Hoorah! That's all I wanted.

I've said that Toad should use it. I'm looking for something that's "so Toad and everyone knows it."

I've said that if Toad gets in, he should be fast and strong. My question is whether Toad has "fighter's characteristics" that are "so Toad and everyone knows it" which would give him "Solid moveset potential while still being the Toad everyone knows and loves."

...yes? I mean it's the Toad I know and love. It's the Toad many of his fans know and love.

I feel like the main reason Toad doesn't have more fans is because they didn't get to play as him growing up during the lull when he was excluded from games for no good reason; around the Gamecube period in particular where he was reduced to "secret character" in Mario Kart, Party Host in Mario Party and only in the beta of Mario Power Tennis. A weird time indeed, when Petey Pirahnna was considered more important than the Mushroom Man.

Luckily that nonsense has rectified itself now, but the Mario Sunshiners are the vast majority of the playerbase now, hence why they accept things like FLUDD as being iconic to Mario, when it's just the only glorified power up in arguably the weakest 3D Mario game at this point.

I'd reply to the rest, but I actually gotta be somewhere soon.

 

[EddyBearr]

Toad's one of the top guys when it comes to requests. Probably middle of the highly requested pack.


Waluigi has one hell of a fan base. Definitely beats Toad by a slight moderate amount but he has an existing very visible hate base. Regardless, he's .... YEAH. I'll leave it at that.

Jr. is not as requested as Toad. Assured of that. As of now? Probably more since we're a bit pessimistic :|. In most polls, I see Toad topping the charts in Mario series but that's what I see.

For the two recent polls, overall placement. (Smashboards bias polls)

2012-2013 Poll:
Waluigi #6
Bowser Jr. #8
Geno #17 (I don't count as Mario)
Toad #18

Current poll:
Bowser Jr. #7
Waluigi #12
Paper Mario #13 (I don't count as Mario)
Toad #24
Black Shadow (F-Zero) #22

Toad was just above Dixie Kong in 2012-2013, and now he's just above Lyn from Fire Emblem. His appeal is there, but it's nothing like Bowser Jr. or Waluigi.

I've seen very few other polls. If you can provide some that'd be great. More info = better

 

[EddyBearr]

Should note that everything past what you replied to was for Pacack, and it's the same stuff.

Oh cool, you're back. Been a bit quieter around here.

Okay! Let's dive in!

So from an unapologizing businessman's point of view, what's better to include:

An instantly recognisable character from your best selling franchise with lots of tie-in promotional material that has appeared in three games in the past year and has sold better than any other game you've released for your new console...

OR

A character from a lesser known series that only a select few will recognise and may or may not have a new game in the next few years, and that's previous installments and popularity have been on the decline?

Assuming Isaac.
The former. One must also pay note to other things, though, such as whether or not the Franchise already has reps, what the characters appeal is (Isaac's is way higher,) what the character potential is (again way higher,) uniqueness (I'd stand firm on it being higher for Isaac, taking "We haven't seen mushrooms before" as not much of an argument for a fighting game, as we haven't seen a lot of things. It has to tie in with fighting well while not being too gimmicky, especially since we got Villager's gimmicks and G&W and etc..)"

Balance that is entirely subjective. I think Toad brings more balance than either of those being the last remaining playable protagonist character in the Mario series, the last of the "Big 8", and the only Mario character remaining to have starred in his own game(arguably two; I forgot about the Japanese only Satellete thing) and he's not based on another character as a crutch like the two Mario spinoff characters. I DO actually like both Waluigi and Daisy(Daisy more than Peach even) but I don't see how either of these would add balance. Again though it's subjective.

Yep, subjective. I'm sure you can see the Mario Bros vs. Wario Bros. dichotomy, though, for balance. Personally, I think that's bigger.

Agreed Luigi needs to be in the game. He's the second most popular Mario character after Yoshi in polls I've seen. Unless Waluigi appears in a Mario/Luigi main game(like he'd of been perfect as a boss for Luigi U, Luigi's Mansion 2 or playable character in New Super Mario Bros. 2; a game that should of been New Super Wario Bros. and I'm sticking to that) I can't personally support his inclusion.

I tend to view Waluigi's role as "A party game character" strengthening his role in Smash, which is a "spin-off party game," just like the parties, the sports, and the racing.

This is another reason I think continuing to give Peach a pluck based moveset is stupid. It's the same reasoning as why Ganondorf is still a Falcon Clone; because he was one before and it might upset people to change things. Black Shadow is often brought up to take Falcondorfs moveset and allow Ganondorf to be GANONDORF, and in the same way I feel Peach SHOULD be using the iconic moves from HER game by this point.

I don't think that's a real comparison. Ganondorf's moveset is a clone moveset (peach isn't,) has nothing to do with Ganondorf as a character (Peach's plucking has at least an iota to do with her,) and Ganondorf has a ton of moveset potential by default (Peach in comparison had far less.)

At this point, Peach's Vegetable has become pretty Smash-Iconic for her, along with her "floating tactics" and her rear-end, so like the Falcon Punch, it's smash legacy is a merit.

In fact this is one thing I don't get about Sakurai's decision making; he changes stuff no one complained about and yet given the opportunity to alter a character to make them feel more like themselves he doesn't.
Prime example outside Ganondorf is Mario's FLUDD; something no one asked for, and not really used by Mario outside one game. This would be seen as more understandable if he'd given Luigi his Poltergust, something he's used far more than Mario's FLUDD(in two Luigi's Mansion Games, references in Mario Power Tennis, Mario Kart DS, etc, etc) and is more "So Luigi".

I'm anticipating the vaccuum in smash 4.

What's more "So Peach"? The moves she used in her own (surprisingly good) game, or moves she shared with the Mario brothers and Toad(who has been seen using it more than the others thanks to Wario's Woods)?

Obviously her own moves. Let's hope there's some more reference to it, but I don't think changing her most iconic and popular moves from Smash would be wise (Up and down special, probably side special, d-smash, floating, etc.)

What was Mario's game within Nintendoland? Being chased by Toads.

Lol, Mario's a noob. Yeah, the vacuum is being retained much higher, so I'll agree with that being more iconic to Luigi than FLUDD could ever be to Mario. Kinda makes sense as it was basically invented to separate him from Mario.

And nor will any other potential newcomer. Bowser Jr, despite his efforts will never be Mr. Nintendo's greatest enemy either but I won't hold that against him

Toad's a character that can keep up with the Mario brothers within the game though. He's not trying to BE a Mario brother, he just can keep up with them and there's only a handful of characters that can do that; Wario and Yoshi being the only other two that come to mind.

I'll be as mean to Bower Jr. as his situation expects.
The question of Toad's role as a stand-in is whether it's something other character's can't do, or something other characters didn't do (as in is the basis an inability, or just "cause Toad happened to do it." I'd say the latter.)

Of course it would be best, but unfortunately Toad whilst recognisable, popular and iconic has never been given an ability that seperates him from the Mario brothers. He can do all the things the Mario brothers can do, but that seems more because it was easier to keep playable characters similar.

Yoshi, as much as I love him, was first and foremost designed in mind as a power up, hence why he was given unique abilities; he's essentially a living version of a Fire Flower or a Tanooki Suit; something that's been added to give Mario(and Luigi) a unique ability when obtained. If Toad had been a glorified power up with spores from the get go rather than an equal terms character to the Mario brothers I wonder if we'd be having this discussion.

Toad would then probably have something more unique to him, but unless he was as popular as Yoshi, he may not be even thought of as a playable option.

Even as I feel your pain I won't hold punches. It's a sad life for Toad, and it's a sad day that a sad life is going to affect Toad's future (namely, Smash inclusion.)

Again, you say obscurely fast. What is this even? Nintendoland has a game where you chase Mario down as Toad. Toad is nearly always a speedy character in spinoffs. He has good acceleration in Mario Kart; something associated with fast characters like Yoshi. Super Mario Bros. 2 which was released as the first game on the Game Boy Advanced.

Because I've never met anyone outside this thread that has thought of Toad as fast. A definite trait is "Pikachu being fast," because he's electric type and that's kinda trademark of electric types and Pikachu in games. Anything lower than that is "obscure." Think of it on a scale of 1-4, with 1 being no reference, 2 being an obscure reference, 3 being Pikachu level, and 4 being Sonic.

Of course speed alone isn't enough to give Toad an edge but since he's also been shown to stack multiple enemies/items/things in Wario's Woods(check Nintendo Direct on your 3DS this week for a video, even) as well as the ability to run up walls, I'd say it gives him something we haven't seen thus far from a gameplay style at least and is something no other character(as far as I'm aware) is currently using.

Incidentally; Pikachu actually isn't even that fast as a Pokemon, especially considering he's electric. 90 base speed for an electric type is pitiful. He's even the slowest of the electric rodents aside from pre-evo Pichu.

Context of being pre-evolved
For an electric type: He's middle of the rode (slightly below average, but the middle range is like 85-96 for a while, so it's not a grand difference)
For a pre-evolved electric type: Behind voltorb and elekid, above like 15 other "NFE" pokemon.
For a pokemon: Average speed in Pokemon is like 70 or something. He's in the upper 6th, which is stellar for an NFE. He's one of the fastest NFE. He is the 95-118th fastest Pokemon, which includes all fully evolved pokemon, all legendaries, etc.
Undeniably, being fast to Pikachu is more than being fast is to Toad.

That is the question. I'd guess 3D World had been planned for some time though before the Smash Roster was decided upon. I find it doubtful they only started work on the game this year anyway.

Opinion has changed on 3D World. Now I wonder how important it really is, and how important his traits in it are to Toad as a character. For both (more so the latter,) I'd say "pretty unimportant."

Think I covered this earlier regarding it's unfortunate, that Sakurai has missed out on things that are So-Obviously-Other characters before and that Toad, unlike Yoshi(my favourite mind you) is not a powerup first and foremost.

Even with that stuff, I don't think any of it is "so Toad."

Depends. If it's mushroom based, yes. Because his special items are always mushrooms; Golden Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Mushroom Hammer that one time...I'd argue the Propeller Mushroom is a BORDERLINE acceptable power up for Toad and mostly because of the promotional material making it more synomnous with him than either Mario brother. If it's something like...Ice Flower? Not really, but it's an option no one else is able to use...unless Luigi's green fireball alters.

Mushrooms are aiight, but I think it's gonna come off more as "Mushroom" than "Toad"

Subjective. I think Toad fits in better than any other potential Mario newcomer. Saturngamer thinks Paper Mario fits in better than any other potential Mario newcomer. Sakurai may think Dr. Mario fits in better than any other potential Mario newcomer(he's wacky like that).

I actually think Sakurai just wanted a clone.

Firstly; fff. Like the "Links". Secondly; I thought you meant other PEOPLE above your head not items, which is something Toad does a lot of. Carrying your buddy above your head is not an ideal way to keep your spine in one piece.

Nah, just things in general. It's also how Link carries people (EX: Princess Ruto in Ocarina of Time.)

I sort of agree here. I'd almost completely agree, but I don't think I know anyone who doesn't know what Mario Party is.

It's not that folks don't know Mario Party (which is absurd to stay,) it's whether certain Toad traits stuck with you more than much of the rest of the games. EX: Almost anything Link does is pretty much recognizable immediately.. let's go with "Gale Boomerang" change.

Agreed on most of the characters, but is fire 100% Bowser if Bowser Jr also uses it? This is about the only reason I don't count it as being Bowser's unique thing; because Jr. jacks it. Similarly I can't agree on Mario's moves being "so Mario" if Luigi can use them too.
Peach does have floating, but that's it. Arguably those who want King Boo may suggest he's more known for that than she is.

I don't think fireballs being "kinda luigi" makes them any less Mario. Bowser Jr having fire would only be a homage to being Bowser's son, which would reinforce Fire being something special about Bowser.

Peach's only Peach thing is floating though. And using a frying pan. The rest of her moveset as we've is not "So Peach" since Toad can do half the things she can; spores, pluck, tennis racket, golf club...seriously; get her some Super Princess Peach moves already, so Toad can use what's he's best known for and Peach can use what she's best known for.

Peach's moveset sucks compared to Link's.

Luigi's moveset COULD be more Luigi, but once again; no Poltergust(aka the one thing that is 100%, truly and utterly unique to Luigi) or Thunderhand(if you wanted to seperate the brothers B-moves, they could of dipped into Mario + Luigi), or a flashlight stun or...Luigi has the potential to be totally unique whilst true to his games, it's just utterly missed at every chance.

No disagreements.

I thought Marth was meant to be the fast one?

Depends on where you're defining middle ground. I'm talking more something that can follow one slash with another after almost no time, whereas almost every Marth attack (save for his nair [final attack {downwards} of dancing blade is "special" "build-up" "work-for-it-cause-its-amazingly-fast"]) is pretty moderate speed. He gets the slice through, but it's only one slice, and often times it has some lag. Metaknight is "ultra-fast." Somewhere between Metaknight and Marth would be "fast" sword, but this is considering Metaknight a freak of nature. Lol.

It's not a re-make of SMB2. At all. I haven't seen a single vegetable been thrown in gameplay footage yet for 3D World. It borrows from that game, sure, with the option to have four characters with varying abilities. That's the only connection thus far:
You're not fighting Wart, this isn't Subcon, I have yet to see Birdo or Shy Guy, Bowser's the main villain and you're trying to save, quite originally, a princess from his clutches.


What 3D World is; a collection of the best bits from games from Mario's long past, brought together in one attractive package.
-Tons of powerups from past games
-Four playable characters (whom I'm guessing were picked because people enjoyed playing as them rather than some) with unique individual aspects to them
-The ability to play through as ANY of those characters(no longer stuck with just Mario in single player; a gripe I had in NSMBW since he's my least favourite of the bunch)

And again, SMB2 isn't an obscure game. It was the first game out for the Game Boy Advanced even. If Mario 64 is new enough to be considered not forgotten, I doubt the GBA is.

Mario 64 is largely forgotten, but Mario's hallmarks from 64 stem from his original inclusion in Smash like 200 years ago.
Obscure/old, same thing. ^__^

I believe it's Square Enix. Is that asterix meant to be there? I scrolled down to see if I could find where the footer note was, but nothing.

Hyperbolic word choice.

Propeller Cap, to be fair, was an important part of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and probably the most useful of the new power ups. Toad's big come back was in that game, and his promotional materal using it is no worse than Luigi using fireballs. That are green. It's not the strongest, but it's not exactly obscure to Toad either thanks to the heavy promotion the games get and Toad is nearly always wearing the cap.

I don't have disagreements. My request has largely been "what gives Toad as much excuse as Luigi had?"

Why does age matter? As I've stated twice in this reply it was the first game on the GBA, and the first hand held game to give Mario and friends a voice.

Super Mario Bros. 2 isn't an obscure title like Takamaru's Muramase castle or an obscure Mario title like Mario is Missing. It's even fondly remembered; it's not like Zelda II which is often heavily disliked. It's probably better known than even Golden Sun, because it's Mario and it's a main game even if it was heavily translated from Doki Doki Panic.

Age matters because time leads to forgetting and to lost audience. It feels weird to have to explain why age would matter.
SMB2 is probably more known than Golden Sun. Golden Sun is treated so well due to its being the biggest unrepresented franchise (not counting...spin-offs or things like "Brain Age.")

Nintendo is a family company. Why appeal to just the youngest generation? Their whole schtick with the Wii was to get families playing together...it might even be why(but this is a guess) there's such a heavy surge of multiplayer co-op Mario games coming out right now.

As I said, the parents buy the games mostly for their kids. A 30 year old without kids is far less likely to have Nintendo than a 30 year old with kids. If the kids aren't pleased, even if the parents are like "oh that's a cool reference," it's more likely to get returned than if the parents weren't pleased (not saying "displeased" EX: Too graphic)

...yes? I mean it's the Toad I know and love. It's the Toad many of his fans know and love.

I feel like the main reason Toad doesn't have more fans is because they didn't get to play as him growing up during the lull when he was excluded from games for no good reason; around the Gamecube period in particular where he was reduced to "secret character" in Mario Kart, Party Host in Mario Party and only in the beta of Mario Power Tennis. A weird time indeed, when Petey Pirahnna was considered more important than the Mushroom Man.

Luckily that nonsense has rectified itself now, but the Mario Sunshiners are the vast majority of the playerbase now, hence why they accept things like FLUDD as being iconic to Mario, when it's just the only glorified power up in arguably the weakest 3D Mario game at this point.

I'd reply to the rest, but I actually gotta be somewhere soon.

It's a sad day for Toad, but I won't hold punches for him. Sunshine and Galaxy, but same problem. You even admitted yourself, most people don't really know Toad as being "faster/stronger" and know him as a stand-in, NPC, or..well, pitiful coward who cries in outhouses in Luigi's Mansion.

 

[Berserker.]

I've seen very few other polls. If you can provide some that'd be great. More info = better

My polls were a good YEAR ago (Lawl) so I forgot where to get it. Like maybe, 3 or 4. They weren't in Smashboards but it was spread on AiB, GFaqs and SB. I don't really use polls as a base for a base of requests since at the total votes are pretty less. Basically if they're requested enough, I'll bite. Flimsy but yeah

From what I remember last time, those polls I was talking about, not much really voted to be honest if you considered how spread those were.

Still, Toad's in a ********-worthy situation.

Unrelated : My avatar's amazing

 

[Arcadenik]

Toad is on his way to becoming one of the more important Mario characters reclaiming his importance he lost during the N64/GCN years.

Back in the NES/SNES days, Toad was a playable character in Super Mario Bros. 2 (NES/SNES) and had his own game Wario's Woods (NES/SNES).

Throughout the N64/GCN days, Toad was reduced to a spineless supporting character who serves as a shopkeeper or a savepoint and couldn't do anything to help Mario out and needed to be rescued.

Throughout the Wii days, Toad was starting to be proactive, even going so far as to lead his brigade to outer space to help Mario out however they can... and even joining Mario and Luigi in an adventure.

And now in the Wii U days, Toad is still adventuring with Mario and Luigi... and he finally regained his speed... hopefully he will regain his superhuman strength in the near future.

Even Sakurai acknowledged Toad's speed and superhuman strength in Toad's Melee/Brawl trophies.

Toad's Melee trophy
Toad, Peach's longtime servant, first showed off his strength in Super Mario Bros. 2, then proved to be an agile driver in Super Mario Kart. There are many Toads in Peach's castle and across the Mushroom Kingdom, and although they look similar, they have varied natures. Not the best of guards, Toad must often be rescued.

Toad's Brawl trophy
One of the servants at Peach's Castle in the Mushroom Kingdom. Toads give off a strong sense of peace. Most feature white heads with red polka dots, but there are other colors as well. Toad's incredible uprooting speed in Super Mario Bros. 2 is unrivaled, adding to the rumor of his superhuman strength...however out of place it might seem.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Should note that everything past what you replied to was for Pacack, and it's the same stuff.


Assuming Isaac.
The former. One must also pay note to other things, though, such as whether or not the Franchise already has reps, what the characters appeal is (Isaac's is way higher,) what the character potential is (again way higher,) uniqueness (I'd stand firm on it being higher for Isaac, taking "We haven't seen mushrooms before" as not much of an argument for a fighting game, as we haven't seen a lot of things. It has to tie in with fighting well while not being too gimmicky, especially since we got Villager's gimmicks and G&W and etc..)"

Was actually referring to someone like Saki, but Isaac does fit surprisingly well my analogy. Let's say I was referring to Isaac since he fits better and actually does have enough of a fanbase to warrant inclusion.

Yep, subjective. I'm sure you can see the Mario Bros vs. Wario Bros. dichotomy, though, for balance. Personally, I think that's bigger.

Personally, you're entitled to that opinion. I just don't really agree.

I tend to view Waluigi's role as "A party game character" strengthening his role in Smash, which is a "spin-off party game," just like the parties, the sports, and the racing

He is. Fair enough.

I don't think that's a real comparison. Ganondorf's moveset is a clone moveset (peach isn't,) has nothing to do with Ganondorf as a character (Peach's plucking has at least an iota to do with her,) and Ganondorf has a ton of moveset potential by default (Peach in comparison had far less.)

At this point, Peach's Vegetable has become pretty Smash-Iconic for her, along with her "floating tactics" and her rear-end, so like the Falcon Punch, it's smash legacy is a merit.

My point wasn't that Peach was a clone at all. My point was it wasn't what Peach is now best known for(which would be the Super Princess Peach powers) and that continuing to stick to previous Smash movesets out of sheer bloodiedmindedness is what's left us with Captain Ganondorf for Brawl.

I'm anticipating the vaccuum in smash 4.

I wish I had your optimism.

Obviously her own moves. Let's hope there's some more reference to it, but I don't think changing her most iconic and popular moves from Smash would be wise (Up and down special, probably side special, d-smash, floating, etc.)

By all means keep the parasol up and B; that is Peach's thing, and I guess at a push the side one...Peach Bomber never really sat right with me, but throw in some of those moves. I personally would of wanted to see "ANGER" as a B move so we could have angry Kirby too.

Lol, Mario's a noob. Yeah, the vacuum is being retained much higher, so I'll agree with that being more iconic to Luigi than FLUDD could ever be to Mario. Kinda makes sense as it was basically invented to separate him from Mario.

A noob that...gets caught by Toad. Not sure if subtle reference to the latter's speed(as a chase would indicate Toad's of good mobility) but it's something. Agree completely on Luigi.

I'll be as mean to Bower Jr. as his situation expects.
The question of Toad's role as a stand-in is whether it's something other character's can't do, or something other characters didn't do (as in is the basis an inability, or just "cause Toad happened to do it." I'd say the latter.)

Again, with the sheer amount of stuff that COULD be done(Mario's a big old series after all), I don't see the issue.

Even as I feel your pain I won't hold punches. It's a sad life for Toad, and it's a sad day that a sad life is going to affect Toad's future (namely, Smash inclusion.)

These punches don't really hurt. It's the same arguement over and over really.

You've admitted that Toad has stuff to work with and I'm not disagreeing that a lot of the things Toad does is not entirely his and his alone. He has options of course within power ups, but we both agree these could be stronger and outside of Toad being the 'Items guy' there's no more connection with them as there are to Mario and Luigi.

Toad has from what I've seen three main things/abilities that seperate him as a playable character from the rest of the Mario cast:
-Spores which has appeared a few times, but hasn't been a huge part of him outside Mario Sports Mix and Smash itself(I guess Toad's Smash legacy would be that he can use spores if we count Peach using veg pluck as her Smash legacy).
-The ability to run up walls which has only been seen in Wario's Woods(but is Toad's own game so I guess this is worthy of note)
-His ability to pick up huge amounts of enemies/items/whatever at the same time, also from Wario's Woods, and a reference to that surprising Super Strength that gets mentioned in his trophies and in SMB2.
He's also faster than all other Mario characters but your mileage may vary on how unique this is.

Because I've never met anyone outside this thread that has thought of Toad as fast. A definite trait is "Pikachu being fast," because he's electric type and that's kinda trademark of electric types and Pikachu in games. Anything lower than that is "obscure." Think of it on a scale of 1-4, with 1 being no reference, 2 being an obscure reference, 3 being Pikachu level, and 4 being Sonic.

Frankly I'm not sure you've met anyone that's played SMB2. Or any other Toad fans.

Context of being pre-evolved
For an electric type: He's middle of the rode (slightly below average, but the middle range is like 85-96 for a while, so it's not a grand difference)
For a pre-evolved electric type: Behind voltorb and elekid, above like 15 other "NFE" pokemon.
For a pokemon: Average speed in Pokemon is like 70 or something. He's in the upper 6th, which is stellar for an NFE. He's one of the fastest NFE. He is the 95-118th fastest Pokemon, which includes all fully evolved pokemon, all legendaries, etc.
Undeniably, being fast to Pikachu is more than being fast is to Toad.

Pikachu is faster than Mario. Toad is faster than Mario. Is Toad faster than Pikachu? Hard to tell without the two being in a game together.

Opinion has changed on 3D World. Now I wonder how important it really is, and how important his traits in it are to Toad as a character. For both (more so the latter,) I'd say "pretty unimportant."

Opinion on an unreleased game has changed based on what?
How important is the game? It's a 3D Mario title; it's important. Because if a 3D Mario can't save the Wii U, the console is frankly ****ed. Not entirely sure how you can judge it's importance prior to release anyway though.

Even with that stuff, I don't think any of it is "so Toad."

That's because you seemingly only associate Toad as being a pitiful coward.

Mushrooms are aiight, but I think it's gonna come off more as "Mushroom" than "Toad"

What pray tell is more "Mushroom" than "Toad"?

I actually think Sakurai just wanted a clone.

Honestly I think you're right here. Good thing too. Wario was apparently almost that Mario clone.

Nah, just things in general. It's also how Link carries people (EX: Princess Ruto in Ocarina of Time.)

Genuinely forgot Link has done this. Seems to be a Miyamoto character thing. Medli in Wind Waker was carried this way too.

It's not that folks don't know Mario Party (which is absurd to stay,) it's whether certain Toad traits stuck with you more than much of the rest of the games. EX: Almost anything Link does is pretty much recognizable immediately.. let's go with "Gale Boomerang" change.

Hmm. Arguably subjective then. Although for the record, having not played Twilight Princess I haven't had the same experience with the Gale Boomerang and so rather than going "That's so Link!" I go "That's...weird. Why's his boomerang got elemental magic now?"

I don't think fireballs being "kinda luigi" makes them any less Mario. Bowser Jr having fire would only be a homage to being Bowser's son, which would reinforce Fire being something special about Bowser.

Regarding the fireballs the only reason we give Mario a free pass is because he uses them a lot in spinoffs and it was one of the first power ups ever. Frankly if he didn't use them in things like Mario Kart Double Dash I'd of associated him with fire about as much as I associated him with a Tanooki suit.

Peach's moveset sucks compared to Link's.

Well, obviously. Platformers have different rules than RPGS or action games. Mario's movset potential sucks compared to Link since jumping is the main part of the game and Link's is about using various weapons to solve dungeon puzzles.

Doesn't help Peach spends 98% of her game appearences stuck in a castle twiddling her thumbs.

Mario 64 is largely forgotten, but Mario's hallmarks from 64 stem from his original inclusion in Smash like 200 years ago.

Mario 64 is forgotten? This is probably the weirdest thing I've read. It's one of the most celebrated games of all time.

Obscure/old, same thing. ^__^

No. No, Eddy, no. It's really not.
Mario Kart(NES) is old. Fragile Dreams~Farewell ruins of the Moon(Wii) is obscure.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is old. Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood is obscure.

Nothing about a mainstream Mario game is obscure. It's the most well known video game franchise on the planet. Are Pokemon Red/Blue obscure because we're on Pokemon X and Y now?

This old=obscure arguement really is the biggest crock you've come out with, and THIS is where I genuinely get upset because outside this one stupid statement which you keep claiming, even if I disagree with you(sometimes intensely) I can at least understand where you're coming from or the logic behind your arguements and debates.

I'd really recommend leaving the old=obscure out of future arguements because no one is going to agree with this one, especially when it comes to Mario games. Especially if the Mario game wasn't a spinoff like Mario Paint or something but a main game. That's really not obscure.

I don't have disagreements. My request has largely been "what gives Toad as much excuse as Luigi had?"

Not sure why this is small, but...Toad's the next most important Mario character in the franchise. He has senority, he has playable appearences as a protagonist which I feel gives him an edge over Bowser Jr personally, he's in more playable games now than pre-brawl, is still a pretty popular character and most importantly; Mario series sells games.

As much of an excuse as Luigi? No, of course not!

Even I as a Toad fan knows the order of importance of the Big 8 with Mario, Peach and Bowser at the top, Luigi close behind(let's be honest; he's not as required as the other three), then DK, Wario and Yoshi with their tie-in series and Toad in last place. But the other 7 are in now, and thus Toad doesn't have to compete with them. He is the last of the Mario Big 8, the last character of the biggest franchise on the planet.

Do we really need an excuse to include a popular character from the best selling Nintendo franchise in this game of Nintendo All Stars?

Age matters because time leads to forgetting and to lost audience. It feels weird to have to explain why age would matter.

I'd almost agree with this, but again; it's Nintendo. They sort of have a habit of rereleasing, remaking, remastering or reusing old ideas, stuff that worked and mixing it with new things. With Virtual Console as well, age isn't as big of an issue anymore.

SMB2 is probably more known than Golden Sun. Golden Sun is treated so well due to its being the biggest unrepresented franchise (not counting...spin-offs or things like "Brain Age.")

Agreed. I do think Isaac warrants a slot, I just also believe Toad does. You'll notice both fellows are in my signature.

As I said, the parents buy the games mostly for their kids. A 30 year old without kids is far less likely to have Nintendo than a 30 year old with kids. If the kids aren't pleased, even if the parents are like "oh that's a cool reference," it's more likely to get returned than if the parents weren't pleased (not saying "displeased" EX: Too graphic)

I'm somewhat older than you, so I feel I can say with some confidence that Nintendo is fine for the older generation too. Would like some fresh IPs, but Mario's something that never truly loses it's charm.

It's a sad day for Toad, but I won't hold punches for him. Sunshine and Galaxy, but same problem. You even admitted yourself, most people don't really know Toad as being "faster/stronger" and know him as a stand-in, NPC, or..well, pitiful coward who cries in outhouses in Luigi's Mansion.

I do somewhat get the feeling that last part is how you view Toad at this point if I'm honest.
(Not that being a coward is a bad thing for a character; Usopp in One Piece is a cowardly character, but as a result he's probably the strongest overall character with the best character arcs. Likewise Luigi is a coward, but he's the more beloved Mario brother)

All I can say is I'm glad Toad's getting more hands on playable roles within the Mario series now, even becoming more useful as a NPC character within Luigi's Mansion 2. In fact this past year and a half has been quite kind to him, so I'm fairly confident Toad's going to be sticking around for a while.

As Arcadenik said, Toad has had somewhat of a hiatus from playable roles or useful sidekick during the N64/GCN period which was probably the most damning and detrimental thing he could of had happened to him and as a result he's got a lot more bashers of his character than he should have.

This seems to be getting worked out for the Wii and Wii U generation, so I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens to the character in future installments.

 

[fogbadge]

return of the page long posts

 

[YoshiandToad]

return of the page long posts

It was inevitable. Prepare for more.

 

[Arcadenik]

We gotta support our favorite mushroom retainer! Whether Toad gets in SSB4 or not, we shall keep on supporting Toad by requesting Nintendo to keep including Toad as a playable character in future Mario platformer games and maybe future Mario RPG games.

I cannot speak for every other Toad fans but... I want a playable Toad in Super Mario Galaxy 3. I want a playable Toad in New Super Mario Bros. 3. I want a playable Toad in Super Mario 3D Land 2. I want a playable Toad in Super Paper Mario 2. I want a playable Toad in Mario & Luigi 5. I want a "Baby Toad" in Yoshi's Island 4. I want Wario's Woods 2. I want Toad to get his own platformer game starring the Toad Brigade.

I know he already is one but I want Nintendo to make it absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, clear that Toad is indeed a Nintendo All-Star in the eyes of his dissidents.

 

[YoshiandToad]

We gotta support our favorite mushroom retainer! Whether Toad gets in SSB4 or not, we shall keep on supporting Toad by requesting Nintendo to keep including Toad as a playable character in future Mario platformer games and maybe future Mario RPG games.

I cannot speak for every other Toad fans but... I want a playable Toad in Super Mario Galaxy 3. I want a playable Toad in New Super Mario Bros. 3. I want a playable Toad in Super Mario 3D Land 2. I want a playable Toad in Super Paper Mario 2. I want a playable Toad in Mario & Luigi 5. I want a "Baby Toad" in Yoshi's Island 4. I want Wario's Woods 2. I want Toad to get his own platformer game starring the Toad Brigade.

I know he already is one but I want Nintendo to make it absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, clear that Toad is indeed a Nintendo All-Star in the eyes of his dissidents.

Whilst maybe not to the same extent, I would also like them to continue putting importance on Toad as a character and yes, I'd be obviously overjoyed should the Captain Toad levels become a thing in a theoretical Galaxy 3, and would dig a sequel to my favourite puzzle game of all time.

Not too fussed over a baby myself...I'd only want it to complete the 8 Star Children list. Although I guess seeing what Baby Toad's look like might be interesting...more interesting than Baby Daisy anyway.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, hey! A playable Toad in Super Mario Galaxy 3 could be a reference to Wario's Woods with walking up on walls.

 

[Berserker.]

Very unlikely but a new sub series for Toad would be pretty cool.

Just don't make it ultra similar to the Mario games.

 

[EddyBearr]

Again, with the sheer amount of stuff that COULD be done(Mario's a big old series after all), I don't see the issue.

At this point I'm convinced Toad has enough moves to make a "history behind Toad's moves" video and make a few watchers say "that's pretty cool," but -repeats same iconic thing-.

These punches don't really hurt. It's the same arguement over and over really.

Because it hasn't been addressed very well. It's the argument I first came in with

Toad has from what I've seen three main things/abilities that seperate him as a playable character from the rest of the Mario cast:
-Spores which has appeared a few times, but hasn't been a huge part of him outside Mario Sports Mix and Smash itself(I guess Toad's Smash legacy would be that he can use spores if we count Peach using veg pluck as her Smash legacy).
-The ability to run up walls which has only been seen in Wario's Woods(but is Toad's own game so I guess this is worthy of note)
-His ability to pick up huge amounts of enemies/items/whatever at the same time, also from Wario's Woods, and a reference to that surprising Super Strength that gets mentioned in his trophies and in SMB2.
He's also faster than all other Mario characters but your mileage may vary on how unique this is.

It'd do a decent job of separating him after he's come in and the digging for "not thought of the second Toad is brought up" traits/moves, but what is he bringing without the digging? Most folks I know's mindset has been (and I'm gonna assume most folks from the GC & Wii generations) nothing.. that can correlate into fighting.

Frankly I'm not sure you've met anyone that's played SMB2. Or any other Toad fans.

I haven't tbh, cause they're a dying (aging) breed of gamer. Maybe they'll resurge but they're not today's audience.

Opinion on an unreleased game has changed based on what?
How important is the game? It's a 3D Mario title; it's important. Because if a 3D Mario can't save the Wii U, the console is frankly ****ed. Not entirely sure how you can judge it's importance prior to release anyway though.

Xerneas being in SSB4. The problem is, Pokemon X & Y is the new game that every pokemon fan and their mother is talking about, but when it comes to mario fans.. 3D Land isn't exactly a major title (SMS, SMG, SMG2, etc.)

That's because you seemingly only associate Toad as being a pitiful coward.

As with most of my peers (which basically means 15-25 age atm). Toad's glory days are.. in the past.

What pray tell is more "Mushroom" than "Toad"?

Nothing. The point is, traits should be Toad traits that we think of when we think of Toad, not mushroom traits that we think of when we think of mushrooms. It's like "well Link does this because he's an *elf*" as opposed to "he does this because he's Link." When I, most people I know, and as I said I assume most people from the GC & Wii generaitons, think of Toad.. it's more just him being something of a joke character, and not really being "mushroom-man with mushroom-powers."

Hmm. Arguably subjective then. Although for the record, having not played Twilight Princess I haven't had the same experience with the Gale Boomerang and so rather than going "That's so Link!" I go "That's...weird. Why's his boomerang got elemental magic now?"

I never played TP as well, so I didn't learn it immediately, but it's kinda like the Deku Shield on Young Link in SSBM. I was of the "Nintendo (Zelda preference) audience when SSBM came out and the reference to a game from my time / that I had played was pretty nifty.

Regarding the fireballs the only reason we give Mario a free pass is because he uses them a lot in spinoffs and it was one of the first power ups ever. Frankly if he didn't use them in things like Mario Kart Double Dash I'd of associated him with fire about as much as I associated him with a Tanooki suit.

The.. let's say cape from SMW, is more associated with Mario than Luigi, because Mario is the main character/namesake, while Luigi is a stand-in that you might see if you have 2 players.

Mario 64 is forgotten? This is probably the weirdest thing I've read. It's one of the most celebrated games of all time.

The current core audience knows far less of Mario 64 than those who were born in 1995 or earlier (past that, it's more Super Mario Sunshine. Pure example is that both my girlfriend and I grew upon playing Mario 64, but her brother (like 2-3 years younger) has Super Mario Sunshine as his childhood game. Whereas I get the greatest nostalgia in history from Dire Dire Docks, he probably gets it from Noki Bay or something. And at this point he's getting out of Nintendo Party games.
Calling Mario 64 forgotten was pretty dumb, I agree, but it's not remembered to the same extent it was in 1999. It's not remembered to the same extent where Mario's downsmash isn't hard to recognize.

No. No, Eddy, no. It's really not. -obscure vs old statements-

Undeniably they have entirely different definitions, but my point is whether obscure or old, they lead to the same result: Not as well remembered by today's audience (largely due to lack of experience with it.)

Not sure why this is small, but...Toad's the next most important Mario character in the franchise. He has senority, he has playable appearences as a protagonist which I feel gives him an edge over Bowser Jr personally, he's in more playable games now than pre-brawl, is still a pretty popular character and most importantly; Mario series sells games.

As much of an excuse as Luigi? No, of course not!

Even I as a Toad fan knows the order of importance of the Big 8 with Mario, Peach and Bowser at the top, Luigi close behind(let's be honest; he's not as required as the other three), then DK, Wario and Yoshi with their tie-in series and Toad in last place. But the other 7 are in now, and thus Toad doesn't have to compete with them. He is the last of the Mario Big 8, the last character of the biggest franchise on the planet.

Do we really need an excuse to include a popular character from the best selling Nintendo franchise in this game of Nintendo All Stars?

When looking at the conglomerate of influences: Him doing "alright" on the 4 pillars, him being of lower appeal in the top 30 wanted newcomers, Mario being very well represented, him having difficulty translating smoothly and recognizably into a fighter.. By saying I'm looking for an excuse, I'm intending to show that, really, when compared to characters like Little Mac, Isaac, or perhaps Shulk from unrepresented well-selling franchises, or characters like Ridley or King K Rool/Dixie from underrepresented big-name franchises.. it's hard to give Toad the go ahead to get in over the others, due to limited roster. Truly, Luigi kinda sucked hard in a few regards, but his strengths in other regards overpowered his flaws in the ones he sucked in. I'm not seeing this with Toad.

I'd almost agree with this, but again; it's Nintendo. They sort of have a habit of rereleasing, remaking, remastering or reusing old ideas, stuff that worked and mixing it with new things. With Virtual Console as well, age isn't as big of an issue anymore.

I'm really doubting that very many current/new gen gamers are using the virtual console to play old games. I know that if I had the virtual console, I wouldn't be using it to try Earthbound or etc, but to relive the games I loved as a kid.

I'm somewhat older than you, so I feel I can say with some confidence that Nintendo is fine for the older generation too. Would like some fresh IPs, but Mario's something that never truly loses it's charm.

Older gamers exist, but I think it'd be absurd to say that people don't walk away (as a generality/"humans-are-statistics" idea) from video games as they get older.

This seems to be getting worked out for the Wii and Wii U generation, so I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens to the character in future installments.

Definitely Wii U, but remember that for the defining game for Mario on the Wii was galaxy. I haven't played Galaxy, but a quick read on Toad's roles in SMG seems to be nothing very great. Finding power stars, being an NPC.

Unrelated : My avatar's amazing

The lack of recognition by people like you is what happened the poor, innocent teddy bear in my avatar.


I'm all for Toad getting more playable roles, regaining his importance, showing what he's capable of, or getting his own subseries.. but as it stands now, Toad's kinda weak.

Though if this pace is kept up, I'd be 100% for Toad in SSB5. Heck, if SSB4 was only announced today and would start development in another year, I might root for Toad. But the status quo, as far as I'm perceiving it, hasn't been too kind to Toad.

 

[YoshiandToad]

At this point I'm convinced Toad has enough moves to make a "history behind Toad's moves" video and make a few watchers say "that's pretty cool," but -repeats same iconic thing-.

It'd do a decent job of separating him after he's come in and the digging for "not thought of the second Toad is brought up" traits/moves, but what is he bringing without the digging? Most folks I know's mindset has been (and I'm gonna assume most folks from the GC & Wii generations) nothing.. that can correlate into fighting.

I haven't tbh, cause they're a dying (aging) breed of gamer. Maybe they'll resurge but they're not today's audience.

As with most of my peers (which basically means 15-25 age atm). Toad's glory days are.. in the past.

Nothing. The point is, traits should be Toad traits that we think of when we think of Toad, not mushroom traits that we think of when we think of mushrooms. It's like "well Link does this because he's an *elf*" as opposed to "he does this because he's Link." When I, most people I know, and as I said I assume most people from the GC & Wii generaitons, think of Toad.. it's more just him being something of a joke character, and not really being "mushroom-man with mushroom-powers."

The current core audience knows far less of Mario 64 than those who were born in 1995 or earlier (past that, it's more Super Mario Sunshine. Pure example is that both my girlfriend and I grew upon playing Mario 64, but her brother (like 2-3 years younger) has Super Mario Sunshine as his childhood game. Whereas I get the greatest nostalgia in history from Dire Dire Docks, he probably gets it from Noki Bay or something. And at this point he's getting out of Nintendo Party games.
Calling Mario 64 forgotten was pretty dumb, I agree, but it's not remembered to the same extent it was in 1999. It's not remembered to the same extent where Mario's downsmash isn't hard to recognize.

Undeniably they have entirely different definitions, but my point is whether obscure or old, they lead to the same result: Not as well remembered by today's audience (largely due to lack of experience with it.)

I'm really doubting that very many current/new gen gamers are using the virtual console to play old games. I know that if I had the virtual console, I wouldn't be using it to try Earthbound or etc, but to relive the games I loved as a kid.

I'm going to group all these quotes together, if you don't mind, because they are essentially the same thing: "Isn't what me and my generation grew up with".

To which I ask; is that important? Is Smash Bros. not a celebration of Nintendo's history over the years? I didn't grow up with Game and Watch or Ice Climbers, and I was very much the core audience age group when Smash Bros. Melee came around.

Now; don't get me wrong here; I'm not saying your generation shouldn't be catered for. Far from it at all. I just don't think it should be the ONLY age group catered for. Sure you can have your Isaac and K. Rool and Ridley and your brother can have his Bowser Jr and...Saki(? I don't know I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that was added in GCN era of vague importance not already included(Olimar, Toon Link), but I believe there's a place for Toad within this Smash Bros. currently too.

Partially for the old schoolers like myself who were around for the Big Bang of gaming(although only just; I'm not THAT old) and partially for the newest set of gamers who have been experiencing the New Super Mario Bros. Wii games as their first. Yes, Toad missed the GCN and N64 Era out(although Luigi oddly also missed out during the latter) but he was around for the NES, SNES, Wii and Wii U eras. That's 4/6 eras, and I don't feel like we should focus on merely the Gamecube and the N64 generation when celebrating Nintendo history.

Xerneas being in SSB4. The problem is, Pokemon X & Y is the new game that every pokemon fan and their mother is talking about, but when it comes to mario fans.. 3D Land isn't exactly a major title (SMS, SMG, SMG2, etc.)

Pokemon Diamond and Pearl also got a lot of attention and they were some of the worst designed Pokemon games; all that backtracking, lack of fire types, Elite Four who couldn't even use their speciality type due to poor Pokemon distribution. Pokemon, in general, just gets a lot of attention.

X and Y ARE worth talking about because they've added things to alter the competitive scene and balance the typing better with the introduction of Fairy Type. It also looks better than any other Pokemon mainstream game because 3D models were finally included.

However comparing Mario(normally a single player experience and a linear platformer) to Pokemon(RPG with HUGE competitive online community) is a bit apples and oranges anyway:
Pokemon has 718 Pokemon currently revealed, all with different movesets, stats and battle strategies to employ. Mario has at most four playable characters(five if you include Yoshi as a seperate character you can control in NSMBW/U/Luigi U or Captain Toad in the upcoming 3D World) all of whom will share the ability to jump(except Captain Toad) and requires very little strategy mostly being a run, jump and use power up reactionary game.

In short I really don't think you can compare how much Pokemon gets talked about to how Mario gets talked about. There's more to talk about in Pokemon.

In terms of Smash though; do you think there will be a X/Y playable Pokemon outside Mega Mewtwo/Mega Lucario(possibly as final Smashes)? I honestly can't see it. Despite all the newer generation's bells and whistles and super training, it's the Gen 1 Pokemon that are mostly celebrated because they were the one's that started it all. They're the memorable ones even though they're from the older generation.

I never played TP as well, so I didn't learn it immediately, but it's kinda like the Deku Shield on Young Link in SSBM. I was of the "Nintendo (Zelda preference) audience when SSBM came out and the reference to a game from my time / that I had played was pretty nifty.

Yes it's nice when you get a reference to a game from your time isn't it? That's what we all want here too.

The.. let's say cape from SMW, is more associated with Mario than Luigi, because Mario is the main character/namesake, while Luigi is a stand-in that you might see if you have 2 players.

So basically regardless of power up; Mario's going to be the most associated with it because you're forced to play as him in a single player game?

(Except 3D World of course where you can play as Peach, Toad or Luigi the entire game and not touch Mario.)

When looking at the conglomerate of influences: Him doing "alright" on the 4 pillars, him being of lower appeal in the top 30 wanted newcomers, Mario being very well represented, him having difficulty translating smoothly and recognizably into a fighter.. By saying I'm looking for an excuse, I'm intending to show that, really, when compared to characters like Little Mac, Isaac, or perhaps Shulk from unrepresented well-selling franchises, or characters like Ridley or King K Rool/Dixie from underrepresented big-name franchises.. it's hard to give Toad the go ahead to get in over the others, due to limited roster. Truly, Luigi kinda sucked hard in a few regards, but his strengths in other regards overpowered his flaws in the ones he sucked in. I'm not seeing this with Toad.

To an extent I do agree. I too feel there should be more IP representation for all games all around. Do you have a list of the top 30, incidentally? I'd be intrigued to see who is within it.

Older gamers exist, but I think it'd be absurd to say that people don't walk away (as a generality/"humans-are-statistics" idea) from video games as they get older.

Again, to an extent I agree. People do grow up, have kids, etc. But it's worth noting that the Wii was hugely successful not only with the kids/teenage/young adult market, but a lot of older people have bought one too. It embraced the casual market well, so there's definately a demand for certain aspects of gaming within people's lives even if it's for things like Wii Fit or Brain Age or Wii Sports.

Heck, my dad plays Call of Duty 2 a lot(mid 50s), my co-worker is always on his iphone playing games on his breaks(father of two young children, early 40s), and I even caught my boss playing Angry Birds(mid 60s) or my mother attempting to play a Mario like game on her tablet(early 50s). They may not be 'hardcore gamers but keep an eye out and I'm sure you'll notice more adults playing games casually during down time than you'd think. There's still room to enjoy games whilst raising kids and paying bills.

Definitely Wii U, but remember that for the defining game for Mario on the Wii was galaxy. I haven't played Galaxy, but a quick read on Toad's roles in SMG seems to be nothing very great. Finding power stars, being an NPC.

I believe Arcadenik can explain the importance of Toad within Galaxy 1 and 2 better than I can so I'll leave this to her.

The lack of recognition by people like you is what happened the poor, innocent teddy bear in my avatar.

Well on the bright side; I'll nearly always reply to you. Even if it takes a while. Cheer up bear!

I'm all for Toad getting more playable roles, regaining his importance, showing what he's capable of, or getting his own subseries.. but as it stands now, Toad's kinda weak.

Though if this pace is kept up, I'd be 100% for Toad in SSB5. Heck, if SSB4 was only announced today and would start development in another year, I might root for Toad. But the status quo, as far as I'm perceiving it, hasn't been too kind to Toad.

Hmmm. Objectively I can agree to some extent. If we were guarenteed a SSB5 I'd be a little less passionate about pushing Toad for SSB4, but we're running out of characters from other franchises. Who else would make it in as a newcomer for SSB5 as it stands now should Isaac, K. Rool, Ridley, Palutena and Little Mac make it in? I do want Nintendo to continue this sudden Toad playability, and yes the N64 and GCN eras in particular were incredibly unkind to Toad, something I'm glad they're making up for now.

On a slightly unrelated note; I think I'd be MORE annoyed if a Mario character gets in before Toad, even if Toad doesn't make it in SSB4 if Bowser Jr or Rosalina get in I'll be genuinely pretty irritated. I have no issue of them getting in AFTER Toad, as I'm obviously a Mario fan, but in terms of importance I can't help but feel a reoccuring playable protagonist should be included over a reoccuring mini boss or a plot device.

Although Bowser Jr, Rosalina, Waluigi and I guess if you count Paper Mario should all trump Nabbit. Despite his playable protagonist status he's been in a single game as an easy mode option. If Nabbit got in over any of the other Mario characters I think I'd quit. Quit what? Quit everything.

Same for if Geno gets in over the others. That'd be insane.

 

[EddyBearr]

I'm going to group all these quotes together, if you don't mind, because they are essentially the same thing: "Isn't what me and my generation grew up with".

To which I ask; is that important?

Yes. And not just "my generation," but rather I'm saying "the target audience"

Is Smash Bros. not a celebration of Nintendo's history over the years?

No. It's a capitalist project with intention to turn a profit.

I didn't grow up with Game and Watch or Ice Climbers, and I was very much the core audience age group when Smash Bros. Melee came around.

Retro throwbacks are pretty much accepted as a thing. It's the only reason Takamaru or Lip are really spoken about. It can't be applied to a "normal" character, like Toad.

Now; don't get me wrong here; I'm not saying your generation shouldn't be catered for. Far from it at all. I just don't think it should be the ONLY age group catered for. Sure you can have your Isaac and K. Rool and Ridley and your brother can have his Bowser Jr and...Saki(? I don't know I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that was added in GCN era of vague importance not already included(Olimar, Toon Link), but I believe there's a place for Toad within this Smash Bros. currently too.

I'm not saying they should be the only group catered to, I'm saying they should be focused on. I'd be all for adding Toad is we had an expected roster of 60-70, but I'm expecting about 50 (counting transformations,) and I think adding Toad would be a mistake with such limited rosters. Simultaneously, the older audience is significantly less likely to throw a fit after missing their favorite character (maturity and whatnot.)

Partially for the old schoolers like myself who were around for the Big Bang of gaming(although only just; I'm not THAT old) and partially for the newest set of gamers who have been experiencing the New Super Mario Bros. Wii games as their first. Yes, Toad missed the GCN and N64 Era out(although Luigi oddly also missed out during the latter strangely) but he was around for the NES, SNES, Wii and Wii U eras. That's 4/6 eras and I don't feel like we should focus on merely the Gamecube and the N64 generation when celebrating Nintendo history.

I think we should focus on what will currently sell.

Pokemon Diamond and Pearl also got a lot of attention and they were some of the worst designed Pokemon games; all that backtracking, lack of fire types, Elite Four who couldn't even use their speciality type due to poor Pokemon distribution. Pokemon, in general, just gets a lot of attention.

Whether they were good or bad doesn't change that they were the current title. Many folks (especially those who were like 8-10 at the time) considered 4th gen the best. Oh, Pokemon fans..

However comparing Mario(normally a single player experience and a linear platformer) to Pokemon(RPG with HUGE competitive online community) is a bit apples and oranges anyway:
Pokemon has 718 Pokemon currently revealed, all with different movesets, stats and battle strategies to employ. Mario has at most four playable characters(five if you include Yoshi as a seperate character you can control in NSMBW/U/Luigi U or Captain Toad in the upcoming 3D World) all of whom will share the ability to jump(except Captain Toad) and requires very little strategy mostly being a run, jump and use power up reactionary game.

Nonsense, It's comparing "main title" vs "main title" and "side-game" vs "main title." It doesn't matter if it's an RPG or a rail-shooter, it's about which game is "the big one" in a series, compared to which ones are pretty small fries in compariosn.

In short I really don't think you can compare how much Pokemon gets talked about to how Mario gets talked about. There's more to talk about in Pokemon.

Content isn't the point, it's resonance with the target audience.

Yes it's nice when you get a reference to a game from your time isn't it? That's what we all want here too.

Of course, and if a business wants to sell as many games as possible, it should focus on the majority of the current audience. An SMB2 or etc. stage would be fantastic, but characters are pretty huge, and dedicating a character slot for a throwback for a relatively small amount of the consumer base is pretty much a mistake. Maybe an assist trophy.

So basically regardless of power up; Mario's going to be the most associated with it because you're forced to play as him in a single player game?

(Except 3D World of course where you can play as Peach, Toad or Luigi the entire game and not touch Mario.)

Associated with it -the most-. It's more associated with Mario than Luigi, and if there were a third brother, more associated with Luigi than Nuigi.

To an extent I do agree. I too feel there should be more IP representation for all games all around. Do you have a list of the top 30, incidentally? I'd be intrigued to see who is within it.

The only meaningful list is stickied in this forum. Toad is 18th atm. I feel like "Nintendo History ftw" is emphasized on Smashboards*, so I feel it might be lower for the general audience, but that's impossible to find out.




*Actually, I know it is because Diskun.

Again, to an extent I agree. People do grow up, have kids, etc. But it's worth noting that the Wii was hugely successful not only with the kids/teenage/young adult market, but a lot of older people have bought one too. It embraced the casual market well, so there's definately a demand for certain aspects of gaming within people's lives even if it's for things like Wii Fit or Brain Age or Wii Sports.

Heck, my dad plays Call of Duty 2 a lot(mid 50s), my co-worker is always on his iphone playing games on his breaks(father of two young children, early 40s), and I even caught my boss playing Angry Birds(mid 60s) or my mother attempting to play a Mario like game on her tablet(early 50s). They may not be 'hardcore gamers but keep an eye out and I'm sure you'll notice more adults playing games casually during down time than you'd think. There's still room to enjoy games whilst raising kids and paying bills.

Sudoku, golfing, war, and "bored at work no download no payment" games are hard to compare to a "Nintendo party game." For instance, just because 5 year olds are more likely to have a wii than.. 15 year olds, doesn't mean that 5 year olds are more likely to play Assassin's Creed.

Well on the bright side; I'll nearly always reply to you. Even if it takes a while. Cheer up bear!

But I've never ever been paradise..

Hmmm. Objectively I can agree to some extent. If we were guarenteed a SSB5 I'd be a little less passionate about pushing Toad for SSB4, but we're running out of characters from other franchises. Who else would make it in as a newcomer for SSB5 as it stands now should Isaac, K. Rool, Ridley, Palutena and Little Mac make it in? I do want Nintendo to continue this sudden Toad playability, and yes the N64 and GCN eras in particular were incredibly unkind to Toad, something I'm glad they're making up for now.

On a slightly unrelated note; I think I'd be MORE annoyed if a Mario character gets in before Toad, even if Toad doesn't make it in SSB4 if Bowser Jr or Rosalina get in I'll be genuinely pretty irritated. I have no issue of them getting in AFTER Toad, as I'm obviously a Mario fan, but in terms of importance I can't help but feel a reoccuring playable protagonist should be included over a reoccuring mini boss or a plot device.

Although Bowser Jr, Rosalina, Waluigi and I guess if you count Paper Mario should all trump Nabbit. Despite his playable protagonist status he's been in a single game as an easy mode option. If Nabbit got in over any of the other Mario characters I think I'd quit. Quit what? Quit everything.

Same for if Geno gets in over the others. That'd be insane.

Super Mario 64 character

 

[YoshiandToad]

Were you in a rush?

Yes. And not just "my generation," but rather I'm saying "the target audience"

Which is vague at best. A target audience doesn't exist. It's a business term that tries to cater to a made up audience. No one is going to agree completely on a roster, there's not one generation of Nintendo fans, you CAN target an age group randomly, but that age group is unlikely to agree on a lot of things. Especially since a lot of Smashboards biggest wants are relatively obscure in today's day and age.

No. It's a capitalist project with intention to turn a profit.
Retro throwbacks are pretty much accepted as a thing. It's the only reason Takamaru or Lip are really spoken about. It can't be applied to a "normal" character, like Toad.

It's not a celebration of Nintendo history but just a cynical money making scheme?

Perfect then! Who are Nintendo pushing forward at the moment? Toad or Isaac?
Which character is going to bring in more money? Toad of course. He's actually got games coming out with him in!
You can't have it both ways, Eddy; It's either fair IP rep that celebrates Nintendo history as a whole INCLUDING NES/SNES generations or it's a money making scheme in which stuff like Golden Sun would be a waste of time since there's currently no plans for a game to be released and Isaac isn't even the main character of the last game.

I'm not saying they should be the only group catered to, I'm saying they should be focused on. I'd be all for adding Toad is we had an expected roster of 60-70, but I'm expecting about 50 (counting transformations,) and I think adding Toad would be a mistake with such limited rosters. Simultaneously, the older audience is significantly less likely to throw a fit after missing their favorite character (maturity and whatnot.)

Fair enough. However the younger generation are also growing up with Toad. Thus he's not really a waste.

I think we should focus on what will currently sell.

Agreed, but again that ****s over Golden Sun, and seems to be not what you want.

Whether they were good or bad doesn't change that they were the current title. Many folks (especially those who were like 8-10 at the time) considered 4th gen the best. Oh, Pokemon fans..

They must have blown their minds when they played X and Y then with proper type distribution and far less backtracking.

Nonsense, It's comparing "main title" vs "main title" and "side-game" vs "main title." It doesn't matter if it's an RPG or a rail-shooter, it's about which game is "the big one" in a series, compared to which ones are pretty small fries in compariosn.

You've missed my point. My point is there's less to discuss about Mario than there is Pokemon so the online community have more to share with one another. What're the Mario fans going to discuss? "Describe your best jump"? "Fastest time trial"?

Content isn't the point, it's resonance with the target audience.

Agreed. Now we wait to see how 3D World ACTUALLY does.

Of course, and if a business wants to sell as many games as possible, it should focus on the majority of the current audience. An SMB2 or etc. stage would be fantastic, but characters are pretty huge, and dedicating a character slot for a throwback for a relatively small amount of the consumer base is pretty much a mistake. Maybe an assist trophy.

Which would be true if Toad was a throwback character, but he's not. Like at all. Although I'd be fine with a stage of SMB2(maybe even bring back the one from Melee) and an Assist Trophy of Birdo, I don't see Toad as JUST SMB2. Because he's not.

Associated with it -the most-. It's more associated with Mario than Luigi, and if there were a third brother, more associated with Luigi than Nuigi.

Nothing to discuss here. I just liked the name Nuigi. Witty.

The only meaningful list is stickied in this forum. Toad is 18th atm. I feel like "Nintendo History ftw" is emphasized on Smashboards*, so I feel it might be lower for the general audience, but that's impossible to find out.

*Actually, I know it is because Diskun.

The list that has people voting vaguely for "6th Gen Pokemon" before the majority of Pokemon were even revealed, Bomberman(which won't happen due to Snake), Banjo Kazooie(impossible due to Microsoft) and a 2nd Sonic rep(Hugely unlikely)?
The list that has retro favourite Takamaru BELOW much hated, but expected character Mii and the unexplainably popular Geno?

Umm. Okay? If you wanna use that, go ahead. I do think it's highly flawed as to who will get in however. After all; poll Miiverse for who they want and Goku and Sonic characters are all top tier.

Sudoku, golfing, war, and "bored at work no download no payment" games are hard to compare to a "Nintendo party game." For instance, just because 5 year olds are more likely to have a wii than.. 15 year olds, doesn't mean that 5 year olds are more likely to play Assassin's Creed.

But a 5 year old who has a wii is more likely to know who Toad is and have played him than a bunch of the other more popular picks like Ridley and K. Rool. If I'm too over the hill, there's a whole potential "target audience" below your age group who will want to pick up Smash and play as their favourite characters from the Wii age.

Although my original point on this was I believe gaming is going to be a more socially acceptable thing for adults to do than previous generations seeing as how we're all constantly staring at screens. That is our future whether it be in a job, or even organising our lives via iPads and iPhones. We may as well play a game on it.

Super Mario 64 character

Impossible to knock off the stage; would be uber tier; best stalling game in Smash. Only counter is Villager. 10/10.

 

[Bowserlick]

What icon would Waluigi have: Mushroom Kingdom or Warioware?

He does not appear in Warioland or Warioware. He was made just to be Wario's tennis partner. That does not sound iconic. He is the protagonist's evil version's tennis partner.

Now if we are going for the Mushroom Kingdom, he doesn't even factor into the main games. Only the sports/party game spin-offs.

Bowser Jr. and Toad do factor into the Mushroom Kingdom. Toad was there from the beginning and is going to be a playable character in the latest game.

The thing that really hurts Toad's chance is Sakurai's views concerning him as a fighter. Sakurai limiting him to a meat shield (and shown to be true for now in the latest game) does not bode well for his chances.

 

[YoshiandToad]

By the looks of things it might be worth me downloading Super Smash Bros. Crusade. I'm ashamed to admit this, but I was unaware Toad was playable in that. It's also made me warm up a bit to the propeller cap suggestion:

 

[Arcadenik]

Every time I watch Toad (or Duck Hunt Dog) in action in Super Smash Bros. Crusade, the more I want Sakurai to make them official newcomers. Imagine a playable Toad (and Duck Hunt Dog) in HD!!!!!

 

[Arcadenik]

I hate to bring this up again... but today's picture of the day kinda gave me some hope for Toad.

Remember how the Capsule used to look like in SSB4 back in June?

Fast forward to November and the Capsule gets a makeover in SSB4!

I think you guys know where I am going with this one... I still think it is not out of the realm of possibility that Sakurai could replace Toad with Toadsworth... and Peach could still have the same move, but with a new look... just like the Capsule... same function, new look. *puts up Toad Shield*

 

[YoshiandToad]

Huh. I actually totally forgot we'd seen the Capsule before. Looks like models do get changed after all!

This means they could easily change the model should they WISH TO. It obviously doesn't guarentee a spot, but this does mean they're open to model alterations.

In other news; currently loving Crusade. Some glitches, but Toad plays how I would hope he would(and Duck Hunt Dog works REALLY well too). I'm not convinced on some of the roster choice's still(3 additional Sonic reps, Goku) but there's some interesting choices available within it too that do work better than I original imagined.

Can't wait for six player brawls; gonna get some PC gamepads and hook it upto a TV!

 

[Arcadenik]

Huh. I actually totally forgot we'd seen the Capsule before. Looks like models do get changed after all!

This means they could easily change the model should they WISH TO. It obviously doesn't guarentee a spot, but this does mean they're open to model alterations.

I am just hoping it is another R.O.B./Toon Link situation all over again... I remember how many people wrote R.O.B. off, declaring R.O.B. to be deconfirmed from Brawl when we saw many R.O.B.'s as NPC's in the Subspace Emissary... and some people wrote Toon Link off, declaring Toon Link to be deconfirmed from SSB4 when we saw Toon Link on the Spirit Tracks stage.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Wow, just looking upwards in this thread and seeing these giant posts defending the character. Bravo to you Toad fans, you fight valiantly.

Gotta say though, I do disagree heavily with Pacack's points on Ridley in the post on this page, but that's not the point of this post

 

[YoshiandToad]

Wow, just looking upwards in this thread and seeing these giant posts defending the character. Bravo to you Toad fans, you fight valiantly.

Gotta say though, I do disagree heavily with Pacack's points on Ridley in the post on this page, but that's not the point of this post

In many ways the plight of the Toad fan is much akin to the plight of the Ridley fan. Both seem obvious choices for Brawl, both were reduced to non player status within it yet available as a NPC(whether that is boss or attack) and both have been teased at now by Sakurai over the last little while. Both are perfectly valid to break away from their previous status, it's just a question as to will they ever get the chance to?

I sympathise with the nonsense the Ridley fans have had to deal with, if not now then in the past, and hope likewise the Ridley fans can find some sort of empathy for us Toad fans, regardless of their stance on another Mario character, or whom their choice might be for said Mario slot.

At least both are available in Crusade. I guess. *sigh*

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Huh. I actually totally forgot we'd seen the Capsule before. Looks like models do get changed after all!

This means they could easily change the model should they WISH TO. It obviously doesn't guarentee a spot, but this does mean they're open to model alterations.

In other news; currently loving Crusade. Some glitches, but Toad plays how I would hope he would(and Duck Hunt Dog works REALLY well too). I'm not convinced on some of the roster choice's still(3 additional Sonic reps, Goku) but there's some interesting choices available within it too that do work better than I original imagined.

Can't wait for six player brawls; gonna get some PC gamepads and hook it upto a TV!

But 6 player brawls are already available in Crusade?

 

[YoshiandToad]

But 6 player brawls are already available in Crusade?

They are? That's pretty nifty. I've only just played the demo for v0.9 where they've been reduced to 2player, so I'm a little behind I'm afraid. I cannot wait for the official release though.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

They are? That's pretty nifty. I've only just played the demo for v0.9 where they've been reduced to 2player, so I'm a little behind I'm afraid. I cannot wait for the official release though.

http://projectcrusade.forumotion.com/t2579-v09-test-demo-available

 

[Gimj]

What exactly is the appeal of Toad? All he does is scream and run around panicking...or just serves as an npc. Toad is Peach's B, it is pretty obvious he's not getting in as a fighter especially when he is the epitome of a wimp. I also don't feel that just because he can be played when you have 3-4 players on the newest Mario game that he is deserving. King Buu/Buu or Bowser Jr before Toad any and every day of the week.


up b - Jumps twice while screaming + crying...in air, tears come out so fast it propells him upward
side b - screams horizontally while characters who hear it deal 350% more damage to Toad
down b - covers face with hands and cries
neut b - runs in circles while screaming until damaged

running a - doesnt cancel run but lets out a scream everytime u tap a
neut a x3 - screams, screams louder, screams even louder thereby damaging himself
side a tilt - cries, enemies who hear it deal 500% more knockback to Toad
up a tilt - looks up to the sky and screams and cries, rendering helpless for 5 seconds
down a tilt - fetal position when ducked, cries while fetal when d tilt a is used

up smash - 1UP generates for anyone besides himself
side smash - runs in direction used whilst crying until he meets resistance or runs off the stage
down smash - ROFCs, rolls on the floor crying.

up taunt - cries
side taunt - screams
down taunt - panicks


Can't wait till fellow Smash veterans feel his wrath.