Toad parade - Oh boy it's Els--- I mean, Rosalina

[EddyBearr]

I'll post later. I'm officially doing schoolwork right now.

This is coming off as, "I'm gonna go search for one when I can, because unlike my post implied, I don't have any examples off the top of my head."

If you're so convinced that you're able to post it nonchalant, then surely the 40 second it takes to write it down would have no significant bearing on your schoolwork.

I'm enjoying this Yoshiandtoad person, because unlike so many folks do, he's been taking in a lot of info, considering it, and often times taking the bold move to say "fair enough". I'm concerned that you're not like that, and are more interested in me "being wrong" than coming to a conclusion about Toad's merits. I'm hoping you don't disappoint me.

If I seem kinda cynical...I can be quite cynical. It comes from debating religion on forums and, when a certain person runs out of viable points and decides to throw out ad hominems, resulting in loads of people "cheering" and "liking" the posts...It's done a fantastic job of making me assume that many folks aren't actually interested in objectivity or honest discussion, just "being right."

I have a feeling you might call me out for a double-standard in that regard, but while I admit I can be hard-headed, I've clearly changed things up, and become easier on Toad in light of new information. Heck, I just finished off being in the Kirby thread regarding Bandana-Dee (spear) and gone from "Does he even have any moveset potential besides walking off a cliff holding a spear" to "He definitely has solid moveset potential." To summarize, I don't care if my original position is accurate, I want my present position (ever-changing, as is the present) is accurate, and the evidence proves it.

 

[StupendousMike]

My bad on SMW.
I think the Star Wars comparison is a false analogy, as the "target audience" for movies, especially star wars movies, has a target audience with an age-range of many, many more years than a "Nintendo Spin-off game." A Star Wars video game should probably take more from Phantom Menace, but not a movie.

But that's my point. Super Mario Bros. 2 isn't just some low-rent "spin-off" game that nobody's ever heard of and nobody remembers. Yeah, it's got its weird "Doki" origins, but it's a core Mario game on a Nintendo platform, and one of the most well known games on the NES. Super Smash Bros. is as much a playable Nintendo museum as it is a fighting game or a party game, so to discount a chunk of that history because its old is silly. Correct me if that's not what you meant, but I've been following along and you repeatedly refer to SMB2 as "old," and imply it doesn't really matter, and that's clearly not true.

And don't be silly. Only if you're making a game explicitly about pod racing should your game take more after Phantom Menace.

 

[EddyBearr]

But that's my point. Super Mario Bros. 2 isn't just some low-rent "spin-off" game that nobody's ever heard of and nobody remembers. Yeah, it's got its weird "Doki" origins, but it's a core Mario game on a Nintendo platform, and one of the most well known games on the NES. Super Smash Bros. is as much a playable Nintendo museum as it is a fighting game or a party game, so to discount a chunk of that history because its old is silly. Correct me if that's what you meant, but I've been following along and you repeatedly refer to SMB2 as "old," and imply it doesn't really matter, and that's clearly not true.

And don't be silly. Only if you're making a game explicitly about pod racing should your game take more after Phantom Menace.

I never intended to imply it was some "spin-off" game. What I have been saying is that it's older, and the older something gets, the less relevant it is in pleasing today's audience.

I've never meant to say it doesn't matter at all, and indeed it matters, matters enough to take a few attacks from if possible, but that it's relevance to today's audience is far out-classed by, say, NSMBWiiU.

I do hope you've been reading thoroughly (though I know I write too much, so I wouldn't blame anyone for not [or for missing over something hidden in a wall of text,].) I've tried to re-iterate several times already that "less" doesn't mean "none" and that SMB2 still matters, just "not as much" as something more current.

As for Star Wars, I honestly think any Star Wars game should. Then again, I'm thinking more in terms of "Lego Star-Wars" or other more kid-like games.

 

[FalKoopa]

The last page.... oh God. It's a moderator's nightmare.

That said, keep up the debate. It's interesting.

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm still waiting until Super Mario 3D World's release. And even if Toad is not confirmed for Smash 4, at least Toad fans will have another masterpiece in which Toad is a playable character in.

 

[Louie G.]

Hey guys! Just popping in to show my support by sharing a quick Toad moveset I made about a month ago. Still coming up with basics and Final Smash.

Standard Special: Bomb
Toad spawns a bomb to throw at his opponents or place on the ground and kick across the stage (throw by pressing B again, place on the ground and kick by pressing down and then B). These bombs vary in color, but all do about the same amount of damage. The bomb explodes on impact. Toad can carry the bomb for a short while, but it explodes if it is held for too long. In a reference to Wario's Woods, if the color of the bomb thrown matches the color of the opponent (say red bomb to Mario or green bomb to Link or Luigi) it does double the damage.

Side Special: Ice Flower
Toad spins forward, releasing two balls of ice bouncing across the stage, one from his left and one from his right. This attack can leave the opponent immobile for a second, and vulnerable to potential combos from Toad. The ice balls also have a 5% chance of freezing your foe.

Up Special: Propeller Block
Toad takes out a trusty Propeller Block and flies into the air. After flying as high as possible, Toad can slowly glide down with the block. The block doesn't do any damage, but is very useful as a recovery. Toad is vulnerable to attacks when floating down.

Down Special: Super Toad Jump
To pull off this high jump, Toad must crouch down and charge the jump for a few seconds. When Toad flashes white, he can do a powerful high jump in which Toad backflips once in the air. This can be used as a recovery or to attack a foe from underneath them. The jump can be sweet spotted at the tip of Toad's foot when he backflips.

What do you all think? Pros? Cons? Advice?
I LOVE FEEDBACK.

 

[StupendousMike]

I never intended to imply it was some "spin-off" game. What I have been saying is that it's older, and the older something gets, the less relevant it is in pleasing today's audience.

I've never meant to say it doesn't matter at all, and indeed it matters, matters enough to take a few attacks from if possible, but that it's relevance to today's audience is far out-classed by, say, NSMBWiiU.

I do hope you've been reading thoroughly (though I know I write too much, so I wouldn't blame anyone for not [or for missing over something hidden in a wall of text,].) I've tried to re-iterate several times already that "less" doesn't mean "none" and that SMB2 still matters, just "not as much" as something more current.

My bad, then. It just seemed like you were disparaging a game very near and dear to me, so I wanted to leap to its defense. Your earlier comment about "Hey look! Just like in DK64?" That was me and my brother when we popped in Melee for the first time.

"Oh, cool! She can float and pluck turnips! Just like Mario 2!"

 

[EddyBearr]

My bad, then. It just seemed like you were disparaging a game very near and dear to me, so I wanted to leap to its defense. Your earlier comment about "Hey look! Just like in DK64?" That was me and my brother when we popped in Melee for the first time.

"Oh, cool! She can float and pluck turnips! Just like Mario 2!"

Yep, but you gotta remember, we're dealing with folks who are playing with their brother as people 12 years younger than you are now. That's why I tend to view SMB2 with little merit. Heck, I'm harsh on Luigi's Mansion, which is pretty much my favorite "Mario" game of all time. I think another possibility to take into consideration is that a lot of us who are older were more likely to have "hand-me-down" games, due to people from the 90's being poorer than today. I shouldn't have had much to do with SNES, but I had tons of SNES in my childhood. I was born in the beginning of 1993.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Hey guys! Just popping in to show my support by sharing a quick Toad moveset I made about a month ago. Still coming up with basics and Final Smash.

Standard Special: Bomb
Toad spawns a bomb to throw at his opponents or place on the ground and kick across the stage (throw by pressing B again, place on the ground and kick by pressing down and then B). These bombs vary in color, but all do about the same amount of damage. The bomb explodes on impact. Toad can carry the bomb for a short while, but it explodes if it is held for too long. In a reference to Wario's Woods, if the color of the bomb thrown matches the color of the opponent (say red bomb to Mario or green bomb to Link or Luigi) it does double the damage.

Side Special: Ice Flower
Toad spins forward, releasing two balls of ice bouncing across the stage, one from his left and one from his right. This attack can leave the opponent immobile for a second, and vulnerable to potential combos from Toad. The ice balls also have a 5% chance of freezing your foe.

Up Special: Propeller Block
Toad takes out a trusty Propeller Block and flies into the air. After flying as high as possible, Toad can slowly glide down with the block. The block doesn't do any damage, but is very useful as a recovery. Toad is vulnerable to attacks when floating down.

Down Special: Super Toad Jump
To pull off this high jump, Toad must crouch down and charge the jump for a few seconds. When Toad flashes white, he can do a powerful high jump in which Toad backflips once in the air. This can be used as a recovery or to attack a foe from underneath them. The jump can be sweet spotted at the tip of Toad's foot when he backflips.

What do you all think? Pros? Cons? Advice?
I LOVE FEEDBACK.

Eh, I think the Ice Flower is out of place for Toad. Perhaps it instead could be a dash attack like Ike's Side-B to reference his speed.

 

[Louie G.]

Eh, I think the Ice Flower is out of place for Toad. Perhaps it instead could be a dash attack like Ike's Side-B to reference his speed.

You're right, everything else screams "Toad", but the Ice Flower not so much.
I think his speed can be referenced fine through his in-game running speed, same with his jump and strength.
I don't know how I feel about a dash attack. That seems out of character too.
Another idea I had is for him to ride a Mario Kart, but I don't know. I'm focusing more on games that focus on Toad.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Aww man, I was really tempted to give it a rest for a few days before responding, but alas; suckered in again.

And I'd be willing to bet that most of the target audience is quite a bit younger than you. (My first was SMW, btw)

I don't doubt this. Like at all. But the original Smash Bros. is what got me into gaming more than before.

Going to skip the rest because I actually agree with almost everything you said in the next section.

One game which was pretty defining for the core audience in 2007, and still pretty important today. Fireballs and hammer are more used, but they're older, lesser "experienced" by fans

Arguable on this point. In the Mario & Luigi series for example these are the main attacks.

1. Assuming it carries on (that could change,) and assuming the new game matters whatsoever.

It most likely will. Maybe not every game, but I do believe these traits are what seperate the characters. Also it's a 3D Mario game with tons of mechanics and power ups to play with. The game will matter and sell like hotcakes.

2. Pretty much everything is on Virtual console, so I don't think we can really call that relevant. As far as I know, Virtual Console is a way for folks to play what they grew up with again (at least, that's how folks use it.)

Fair enough.

That has nothing to do with my point. I was saying that "DK being surprisingly fast" is more memorable / easier to connect (most familiar with DK or DK rap are aware of it, no need to research) than "Toad being surprisingly strong." In other words, take as much being surprisingly fast has to do with DK's "moveset potential," make it not nearly as effective, and that's what Toad's got.

In your opinion. I was honestly surprised Toad was the strongest. I figured Mario and Luigi would outmuscle him since they're the ones who fight Bowser on a weekly basis.

I think you're really looking for any excuse to say Toad has something "iconic." Iconic is "kirby eating enemies" and "multiple jumps." I really don't think a "Mario Kart Special" is all that iconic. Personal, usually. I don't think a Giant Bowser Shell is "iconic" to either Bowser, and I don't think "protective hearts" are iconic to Peach

I'd say Bowser's shell is more iconic to the character than his ability to breathe flame. After all Charizard does that too. Any big scaly dragon type creature will do this. If we're going for things that are super iconic, then there's little to work with for the majority of newcomers left.
Arguably Mario's two iconic things are being able to jump; a trait he's not even as good at as his own brother(kind of unfortunate if you think about it), and being able to shoot fire; a trait that many characters have including his brother, his arch enemy and his arch enemies son(a bit).

And what do you think most potential customers grew up with? Most of them are 10-22/23 years old.

8-30. Basically as long as Nintendo have been making video games. Gamings a big thing and far more socially acceptable now as a hobby. Gaming chic is in, and for anyone who was around during the big Nintendo-Sega rivalry, seeing Mario Vs. Sonic is always something they're up for.

Bowser Jr's role has been "secondary antagonist." His siblings are area bosses. There's honestly a pretty huge difference. It's like saying "King Boo" in Luigi's Mansion is "lumped in with all the random portrait ghosts."

Not really the same since he shares said role with Kamek within the NSMBwii games. Before that, sure.
Also King Boo is more like the Bowser of Luigi's Mansion and thus the big boss. He's not the miniboss. Boolossus may be a better example.

Toad is being pushed forward as a "3rd and 4th" protagonist, with differing colors. To be honest, his role comes off not as much as "I'm playing as the one and only Toad" as "I'm playing as a replacement character since I can't be Mario or Luigi." At least, that's what I kinda felt like playing NSMBWiiU (I don't really have anything against Toad. I'm against his inclusion solely because I'm fore characters who I think are more warranted.)

You're allowed to be, of course. You're entitled to your opinion of not thinking Toad's smash worthy. My opinion is he is. I'll admit I would have preferred to play as THE Toad(yeah, yeah, shut up guys we covered all this) with the red spots and blue jacket and maybe...I dunno; Wario as the last protagonist rather than two Toad colours.

3 & 4th protagonist, who only comes up if you have more than 2 players, and who may (as it did with me) come off as a "stand-in's stand-in" is hardly more important than the secondary antagonist that you always face, even if playing alone or with two people.

Nintendo is one of the few companies still pushing the multiplayer experience, so if you're doing it right you should be playing NSMBW onwards with friends. Heck, half the fun of that game is playing it with friends.

Also I still rank being a player character above being the secondary antagonist in terms of importance. If this was the primary antagonist I'd argue he's the most important part of the game, since he gets the ball rolling.

Bowser Jr. was unimportant between brawl and recently. His role has been gaining significant ground. For a long while, Bowser Jr. was just "in some spin-offs."

Ah, I forgot New Super Mario Bros.(this game franchise is getting confusing) was before Brawl's release.

However to his credit Bowser Jr. WAS the secondary antagonist in Super Mario Galaxy 2 which was between Brawl and now.

You're not getting my point. I'm talking about his justification for having that trait in Smash Bros. People see Pikachu's speed in Smash Bros, and anyone who knows Pokemon knows immediately: Electric-type. People see Toad being fast, I don't think they're gonna know immediately: SMB2 and sentence in a trophy.
In other words, Toad's being fast is hardly as appealing as a personal trait as Pikachu being fast, or DK being fast.

I get your point; I just don't agree with it. Anyone who knows Mario knows of SMB2 and thus know of Toad's speed. Even if they didn't, then 3D World sets them straight since that game would be out before Smash 4 is.

I'd be willing to bet a very significant sum of money that more folks have forgotten about Toad's pre-SNES traits than those who have forgotten Koopa Troopas Snes & onwards traits. Simultaneously, since you're counting smash bros, then the red vs green shell dichotomy in smash bros, "follows around vs mindlessly goes forward off ledge" is directly from Koopa's SMW traits, so it's been in multiple games.

I'll take that bet. Especially since it's being brought back and revived.

Regarding the shells; note Koopa Troopa isn't in them in Mario Kart. In the spinoffs Koopa Troopa's powers nearly always are related to water. Because turtles=water I guess. Ask Squirtle for details.

Everything is on the virtual console.
And tbh, no. Those things usually aren't too big. I feel dumb now for giving SMW a boost for being re-made.

I agree everything is. Nothing to see here.

You seem to be getting kind of emotional. I'm doing this because I enjoy discussion, and I enjoy debating things.
Also, it's kinda petty that you implied that I've "made up my mind." I've already stated that I've learned things from this discussion, and given Toad a few bumps up. I think what's more likely is that a "YoshiAndToad" is holding a bit more perception bias than some ol' teddy bear.

Kind of emotional?

No, I'm just genuinely not sure why exactly I am required to explain to you why I believe Toad to be a perfectly good Smasher choice. Particularly because I have. If you don't agree, then it's fine, but the discussion seems to be coming back to the exact same points because we can't see eye to eye on them.What seems iconic to you isn't to me and vice versa. I see Toad's speed as an inherently important part of him, but don't see Donkey Kong's speed being slightly faster than you'd expect for a big guy, as an important factor of Donkey Kong. You see it the other way around for example.

As for personal perception bias for Toad? Of course! I have it in bags. I will never say I don't. But everyone does on these boards. Everyone's got their own 'Toad' whether it's Ridley, K. Rool, Diskun, Isaac, Shulk, Saki, Starfy or Bowser Jr.

You don't exactly spend hours debating a character if you don't care one way or another after all.

(Unless you're insanely bored and have nothing better to do.)

I'm enjoying this Yoshiandtoad person, because unlike so many folks do, he's been taking in a lot of info, considering it, and often times taking the bold move to say "fair enough". I'm concerned that you're not like that, and are more interested in me "being wrong" than coming to a conclusion about Toad's merits. I'm hoping you don't disappoint me.

I respect the fact you put so much time into these talks. I actually do. If I disagreed or more characters than you'd I'd happily have you as my official Smashboards rival.

 

[Arcadenik]

Yep, but you gotta remember, we're dealing with folks who are playing with their brother as people 12 years younger than you are now. That's why I tend to view SMB2 with little merit. Heck, I'm harsh on Luigi's Mansion, which is pretty much my favorite "Mario" game of all time. I think another possibility to take into consideration is that a lot of us who are older were more likely to have "hand-me-down" games, due to people from the 90's being poorer than today. I shouldn't have had much to do with SNES, but I had tons of SNES in my childhood. I was born in the beginning of 1993.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's assuming those 12 year old kids never played Super Mario All-Stars for the Wii... Or never downloaded Super Mario Bros. 2 from the Wii / 3DS / Wii U Virtual Console. You truly don't think little kids would recognize Toad from all those ports and remakes from the last couple years?

 

[YoshiandToad]

The last page.... oh God. It's a moderator's nightmare.

That said, keep up the debate. It's interesting.

Glad you're enjoying it. Sorry about the mess!

I hope as a result you'll forgive the double post I'm about to do in order to keep my discussion with Eddybear seperate from grading Louie's moveset:

(Edit: Nevermind! Arcadenik saved me from doing so)

Hey guys! Just popping in to show my support by sharing a quick Toad moveset I made about a month ago. Still coming up with basics and Final Smash.

Standard Special: Bomb
Toad spawns a bomb to throw at his opponents or place on the ground and kick across the stage (throw by pressing B again, place on the ground and kick by pressing down and then B). These bombs vary in color, but all do about the same amount of damage. The bomb explodes on impact. Toad can carry the bomb for a short while, but it explodes if it is held for too long. In a reference to Wario's Woods, if the color of the bomb thrown matches the color of the opponent (say red bomb to Mario or green bomb to Link or Luigi) it does double the damage.

Actually love the part about the colour bombs effecting them differently; it's creative, it relates to Wario's Woods; all Smashers in SSB4 have been shown to have a 'colour' of sorts associated to them(judging by their blasting off effects in the screenshots we've seen) and it's a unique thing that is exclusive to Toad. Fantastic!

Actually if Eddybear is reading this I do recommend giving Wario's Woods a go. I don't know if it costs much, but if you ever get the chance to play for free, then for goodness sake please try it. It's a great little puzzler.

Side Special: Ice Flower
Toad spins forward, releasing two balls of ice bouncing across the stage, one from his left and one from his right. This attack can leave the opponent immobile for a second, and vulnerable to potential combos from Toad. The ice balls also have a 5% chance of freezing your foe.

Workable, but like Bluepikmin suggested not as personal as the rest of these items. Also side + B for iceball when Mario and Luigi's fireballs are B feels a little off to me.

Up Special: Propeller Block
Toad takes out a trusty Propeller Block and flies into the air. After flying as high as possible, Toad can slowly glide down with the block. The block doesn't do any damage, but is very useful as a recovery. Toad is vulnerable to attacks when floating down.

Since this is going to be used in 3D World by Toad I'm okay with this. I can't remember whether he interacted with it in 3D Land. Less well known probably than Propeller mushroom, but it does mean Toad doesn't need to randomly transform mid battle and disturb the flow of his look. Arguably works better than the hat.

Down Special: Super Toad Jump
To pull off this high jump, Toad must crouch down and charge the jump for a few seconds. When Toad flashes white, he can do a powerful high jump in which Toad backflips once in the air. This can be used as a recovery or to attack a foe from underneath them. The jump can be sweet spotted at the tip of Toad's foot when he backflips.

Like it, but feel it doesn't work for a down and B special. I understand why you went for it(you have to hold down first to activate) but most down+B attacks involve something non aerial. I'm sure I'd adapt, but it'd be a headscrew to get around, just like Yoshi's lack of a third jump was at first.
Maybe if the jump had some impact on the ground as well, even if it was just releasing the spores as he charges with a radius like Jigglypuff's Sing I could see it as more of a down + b move.

Overall though not bad, but the shining star is most definitely the unique and creative B move suggestion regarding the bombs. I absolutely love that variable idea.

As for the Kart; Although Toad is one of the more popular Mario Karters(with his acceleration it's understandable), I'd keep that at most as his entrance.

I think if you combine Bowserlick's moveset with your own it works best. Particularly his Golden Mushroom dash Side + B(which is more about Toad) and the Pluck for his Down + B(really like that it works on enemies in the air as a grab), I'd be pretty happy with Toad's special moveset options here.

 

[Louie G.]

Actually love the part about the colour bombs effecting them differently; it's creative, it relates to Wario's Woods; all Smashers in SSB4 have been shown to have a 'colour' of sorts associated to them(judging by their blasting off effects in the screenshots we've seen) and it's a unique thing that is exclusive to Toad. Fantastic!

Thanks! I thought it would be a cool gimmick for Toad. I wonder if it's something Sakurai would do, considering the wide variety of colors of characters.

Workable, but like Bluepikmin suggested not as personal as the rest of these items. Also side + B for iceball when Mario and Luigi's fireballs are B feels a little off to me.

I agree. Ice Ball doesn't really fit I'm afraid. I should probably change that into something else. I think I'm actually going to look into 3D World for inspiration.

Since this is going to be used in 3D World by Toad I'm okay with this. I can't remember whether he interacted with it in 3D Land. Less well known probably than Propeller mushroom, but it does mean Toad doesn't need to randomly transform mid battle and disturb the flow of his look. Arguably works better than the hat.

Pretty sure uses it when you look through the binoculars, that's why I chose it.

Like it, but feel it doesn't work for a down and B special. I understand why you went for it(you have to hold down first to activate) but most down+B attacks involve something non aerial. I'm sure I'd adapt, but it'd be a headscrew to get around, just like Yoshi's lack of a third jump was at first.
Maybe if the jump had some impact on the ground as well, even if it was just releasing the spores as he charges with a radius like Jigglypuff's Sing I could see it as more of a down + b move.

Huh, that's a pretty good idea. I like the idea of Toad having some kind of super jump as a reference to SMB2 and to make up for his terrible normal jump. The spore idea is interesting though.

Overall though not bad, but the shining star is most definitely the unique and creative B move suggestion regarding the bombs. I absolutely love that variable idea.

Thanks, glad you liked it.

As for the Kart; Although Toad is one of the more popular Mario Karters(with his acceleration it's understandable), I'd keep that at most as his entrance.

Yeah, the Toad Kart is actually a move that I was trying to avoid using.

I think if you combine Bowserlick's moveset with your own it works best. Particularly his Golden Mushroom dash Side + B(which is more about Toad) and the Pluck for his Down + B(really like that it works on enemies in the air as a grab), I'd be pretty happy with Toad's special moveset options here.

I'll look into Bowserlick's. Pluck sounds cool also.

I kind of like giving characters representation from the games they are most important in. I choose Wario's Woods, NSMB, SM3DW, and of course SMB2 for Toad.

 

[Pacack]

This is coming off as, "I'm gonna go search for one when I can, because unlike my post implied, I don't have any examples off the top of my head."

If you're so convinced that you're able to post it nonchalant, then surely the 40 second it takes to write it down would have no significant bearing on your schoolwork.

I'm enjoying this Yoshiandtoad person, because unlike so many folks do, he's been taking in a lot of info, considering it, and often times taking the bold move to say "fair enough". I'm concerned that you're not like that, and are more interested in me "being wrong" than coming to a conclusion about Toad's merits. I'm hoping you don't disappoint me.

If I seem kinda cynical...I can be quite cynical. It comes from debating religion on forums and, when a certain person runs out of viable points and decides to throw out ad hominems, resulting in loads of people "cheering" and "liking" the posts...It's done a fantastic job of making me assume that many folks aren't actually interested in objectivity or honest discussion, just "being right."

I have a feeling you might call me out for a double-standard in that regard, but while I admit I can be hard-headed, I've clearly changed things up, and become easier on Toad in light of new information. Heck, I just finished off being in the Kirby thread regarding Bandana-Dee (spear) and gone from "Does he even have any moveset potential besides walking off a cliff holding a spear" to "He definitely has solid moveset potential." To summarize, I don't care if my original position is accurate, I want my present position (ever-changing, as is the present) is accurate, and the evidence proves it.

For the record, no, I was not doing that. I had a timer set that happened to go off. And, honestly, I'm more than a little bit insulted by your accusation. I honestly was ready for a somewhat friendly debate, and you've killed that off quite well.

That said, I would like to apologize to you for my harsh remark, as it was a little uncalled for. I got caught up in the moment and I got snippy. Your arguments are fairly cohesive and I understand your views, I just see some of your points, specifically your saying Toad has no moveset potential, to be showing a huge double standard when you think Waluigi or Bowser Jr. (though I can definitely see potential in both of them, I don't think they have more than Toad does) do. I should have gone and told you as much, though, instead of posting something to belittle you.

I will not bother to debate on you about this, though, since I am harsh at times and would rather not be, especially when YoshiandToad is doing a far better job at defending us than I could, and he's doing so without getting rude, as I will. I'm sorry for attacking you, it was unnecessary.

(Also, I am not leaving because I know I'll lose. I'm leaving because I hate being rude, and I tend to get rude when someone with a differing opinion shows up.)

 

[EddyBearr]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's assuming those 12 year old kids never played Super Mario All-Stars for the Wii... Or never downloaded Super Mario Bros. 2 from the Wii / 3DS / Wii U Virtual Console. You truly don't think little kids would recognize Toad from all those ports and remakes from the last couple years?

I'm saying it'll be less recognizable, especially due to a point I brought up of it being less memorable, than the major & most popular titles of the current generation.

You keep saying that I'm saying/assuming/etc "don't," "never," Wouldn't," or other absolute negatives. I'm not. I'm using a whole lot of "less". I'd appreciate if this strawman stops occurring, as I'm getting quite tired of re-iterating that I'm not promoting any absolute negatives.

For the record, no, I was not doing that. I had a timer set that happened to go off. And, honestly, I'm more than a little bit insulted by your accusation. I honestly was ready for a somewhat friendly debate, and you've killed that off quite well
That said, I would like to apologize to you for my harsh remark, as it was a little uncalled for. I got caught up in the moment and I got snippy.

NP, and an apology to you for giving you a taste back.

I understand your views, I just see some of your points, specifically your saying Toad has no moveset potential, to be showing a huge double standard when you think Waluigi or Bowser Jr. (though I can definitely see potential in both of them, I don't think they have more than Toad does) do. I should have gone and told you as much, though, instead of posting something to belittle you.

I have never once, in this entire thread, said he has "no" moveset potential. I said his moveset potential is vastly inferior to most other potential candidates. I have made almost no absolute negatives in this thread, just a whole lot of "less" statements.
As my avatar might imply, I view the world on an infinite gray-scale.

(Also, I am not leaving because I know I'll lose. I'm leaving because I hate being rude, and I tend to get rude when someone with a differing opinion shows up.)

Quite commendable.

Aww man, I was really tempted to give it a rest for a few days before responding, but alas; suckered in again.

Yay.

I don't doubt this. Like at all. But the original Smash Bros. is what got me into gaming more than before.

Certainly. Older fans matter, and they exist. Unfortunately, they're outnumbered by 11-16 year olds, who tend to have different characters and weapons/moves/etc. that they "grew up with", thus sticks in their memory.

Going to skip the rest because I actually agree with almost everything you said in the next section.

Arguable on this point. In the Mario & Luigi series for example these are the main attacks.

Partial agreement. I tend to put the most emphasis on major console titles, but they're certainly viable options.

If we go back to 2006, for example, you might have a casual saying 'I hope I can use Fludd in the next smash bros!" Then, if during Brawl's release, they might see the hammer and say, "oh yeah! That did exist. Cool!"

I've never played the Mario & Luigi series, so that was news to me. Nice to know.

It most likely will. Maybe not every game, but I do believe these traits are what seperate the characters. Also it's a 3D Mario game with tons of mechanics and power ups to play with. The game will matter and sell like hotcakes.

I totally agree, actually. My concern is it being too new, but it was in my benefit to point out another assumption (guilty.)

In your opinion. I was honestly surprised Toad was the strongest. I figured Mario and Luigi would outmuscle him since they're the ones who fight Bowser on a weekly basis.

My expectation* is probably a better word. For me, certainly it's more memorable, but I've never played SMB2. I have a feeling that if you polled Nintendo fans..
"Why is DK fast?" Many will sing the DK rap.
"Why is Pikachu fast?" Many will say "electric type"
"Why is Toad fast?" I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who pays great attention to this.
Having played Golden Sun (including last fall/winter) and absolutely loved it, my memory is getting foggy as to whether Mia is slower than Garet by default, or not. Obviously not a good comparison because there's so much more to remember in Golden Sun. I remember being distinctly surprised that Mia was "so slow," though.
Took some digging, but while writing this post I'm gonna guess she's slower than Garet.

I'd say Bowser's shell is more iconic to the character than his ability to breathe flame. After all Charizard does that too. Any big scaly dragon type creature will do this. If we're going for things that are super iconic, then there's little to work with for the majority of newcomers left.

His shell is certainly more Unique, and more "Bowser," but when you think of Bowser, I think "Fire breath" comes way before "throws huge shells." That's what I mean by iconic.

Arguably Mario's two iconic things are being able to jump; a trait he's not even as good at as his own brother(kind of unfortunate if you think about it), and being able to shoot fire; a trait that many characters have including his brother, his arch enemy and his arch enemies son(a bit).

I've actually avoided "iconic" statements from Mario because, well, he's pretty much lacking them. But Mr. Nintendo is Mr. Nintendo. Fludd is probably the closest thing that comes to being "iconic" to Mario, but even that I guess is more properly "personal."

8-30. Basically as long as Nintendo have been making video games. Gamings a big thing and far more socially acceptable now as a hobby. Gaming chic is in, and for anyone who was around during the big Nintendo-Sega rivalry, seeing Mario Vs. Sonic is always something they're up for.

I'm talking core. There are 50 year olds who play Nintendo, who started back in Arcades in college, but generally you see folks losing interest in Mario and Yoshi as they get older.

Not really the same since he shares said role with Kamek within the NSMBwii games. Before that, sure.
Also King Boo is more like the Bowser of Luigi's Mansion and thus the big boss. He's not the miniboss. Boolossus may be a better example.

No huge disagreements. It certainly better than how Bowser's Children are treated. Kamek also has a decent amount of support. I still think Bowser Jr's role in NSMBWiiU is bigger than Toad's, almost entirely because Toads role is kind of a blank slab, that's just doing what all playable characters do entirely equally.

Nintendo is one of the few companies still pushing the multiplayer experience, so if you're doing it right you should be playing NSMBW onwards with friends. Heck, half the fun of that game is playing it with friends.

I actually played it in a group of 5 people. Was massive fun.

And I'm pretty sure all the FPS are all about multiplayer (unless you're differentiating between Multiplayer and Online.) .

I get your point; I just don't agree with it. Anyone who knows Mario knows of SMB2 and thus know of Toad's speed. Even if they didn't, then 3D World sets them straight since that game would be out before Smash 4 is.

I think we'd have to take a poll to an Nintendo convention to settle this.

I'll take that bet. Especially since it's being brought back and revived.

I accept Moneypak and Paypal.

Kind of emotional?

No, I'm just genuinely not sure why exactly I am required to explain to you why I believe Toad to be a perfectly good Smasher choice. Particularly because I have. If you don't agree, then it's fine, but the discussion seems to be coming back to the exact same points because we can't see eye to eye on them.What seems iconic to you isn't to me and vice versa. I see Toad's speed as an inherently important part of him, but don't see Donkey Kong's speed being slightly faster than you'd expect for a big guy, as an important factor of Donkey Kong. You see it the other way around for example.

Caps lead me to assume that. My bad.

I came in here with one real argument: Severely lacking in moveset department when compared to other options. I still think this is the case, as I've only really been handed 3 examples (-maybe- propeller shroom, higher speed/stronger (strangely), and Wario's Woods.) To be blunt, I think these are really bad cases.
Donkey Kong's speed is super memorable to me for one reason, and one reason only: The DK rap. Almost everyone can get the first verse down (typical for most songs.) I don't think that assuming other folks are in this boat is pushing anything.
I'd like to note, I don't think it's a very important factor. I think it's kinda cool, but not an important factor. My point was that it's more fitting/personal with DK (almost entirely due to the rap) than Toad's +2 speed is for him (in a significantly older game.)

Since I don't think DK's speed is "all that important," I tend to view Toad's speed is "barely anything to note."

As for personal perception bias for Toad? Of course! I have it in bags. I will never say I don't. But everyone does on these boards. Everyone's got their own 'Toad' whether it's Ridley, K. Rool, Diskun, Isaac, Shulk, Saki, Starfy or Bowser Jr.

Isaac > Diskun

I respect the fact you put so much time into these talks. I actually do. If I disagreed or more characters than you'd I'd happily have you as my official Smashboards rival.

Ridley sucks, Krystal rocks, R.O.B. isn't coming back, Chrom & Ike can't both exist, Dixie Kong is very unlikely, and the government is lying to you about World War 2.

 

[Gene]

Krystal rocks.

Krystal does not rock. She's a mineral.

Spoiler

 

[EddyBearr]

Krystal does not rock. She's a mineral.

Spoiler

She's a football!

Spoiler

 

[Pacack]

I have never once, in this entire thread, said he has "no" moveset potential. I said his moveset potential is vastly inferior to most other potential candidates. I have made almost no absolute negatives in this thread, just a whole lot of "less" statements.
As my avatar might imply, I view the world on an infinite gray-scale.

I'm sorry, I meant to say no moveset potential in comparison to other candidates.
Which I still see as ludicrous, but that's for another day.

I came in here with one real argument: Severely lacking in moveset department when compared to other options. I still think this is the case, as I've only really been handed 3 examples (-maybe- propeller shroom, higher speed/stronger (strangely), and Wario's Woods.) To be blunt, I think these are really bad cases.
Donkey Kong's speed is super memorable to me for one reason, and one reason only: The DK rap. Almost everyone can get the first verse down (typical for most songs.) I don't think that assuming other folks are in this boat is pushing anything.
I'd like to note, I don't think it's a very important factor. I think it's kinda cool, but not an important factor. My point was that it's more fitting/personal with DK (almost entirely due to the rap) than Toad's +2 speed is for him (in a significantly older game.)

Since I don't think DK's speed is "all that important," I tend to view Toad's speed is "barely anything to note."

Honestly, I have to give you more things that are good for movesets if you've only had 3 (that stick out, at least)

The three you listed are all viable, except propeller shroom, in my opinion, since it requires a suit to be done.

The higher speed will be recognized by more people than you think it will. Mainly due to Mario Kart in all honesty, but also due to Mario Sports Mix and SM3DW, which Sakurai would've likely known of at the time of Toad's development if he was considering him. The strength is less iconic, to be sure. The thing that's important with those, however, is that they tell you two BIG things: a characters movement speed, and a character's overall attack power. It matters less about how recognizable it is than how useful it is for this one.

Wario's Woods is less iconic than a lot of things, but it's notable for being Toad's very own game, and it could do with a reference, especially because it's so unique an idea.

Note: I am not using the sports titles because I don't think Toad should use them, but they are still viable options, as it could be applied just as easily to Toad as Waluigi, which, in my opinion, already gives Toad most of the moveset potential Waluigi has.

Grabbing from SMB2. It's a fairly iconic power because it's actually stayed/returned in games like NSMBWii in some form. I assume you know how it works in the original game, so I won't bother explaining that. When it comes to NSMBWii, the concept seemed to return in the form of shaking the Wii remote to carry an object or another character. I can't say for certain that this was a direct allusion to SMB2, but I'd think it does since it has a similar animation for carrying things:

Spoiler

(those last two were difficult to find)

And, if it isn't an allusion to it, then it's still a viable move. (Fun fact, it's alluded to in Wario's Woods)

Power Squat Jump is also viable, and I believe that's been explained. (It was recently referenced in SM3DL, since Mario and Luigi perform a powerful jump when after crouching, which would make it recognizable to new players) and it's viable as either an up special, down special, or mechanic.

Pulling something out of the ground is also viable, though I'd suggest either the large turnips, mushroom blocks, or koopa shells since you can pull those out of the ground (I may be wrong on the mushroom blocks). POW blocks, Eggs, keys, and bombs are also viable items.

Using mushrooms is viable, but not necessarily the most iconic thing, and I understand you not liking it.

Using powerups is viable, even if it's not the most viable thing in most cases (I try to make movesets without them), although I would see them doing something like the ice flower if for no reason other than to make him share a move with the Mario bros.

Spores are viable as well, but I'm not that big a fan, as it's too similar to Peach's B move.

Using items like boxes is certainly viable, makes sense when one considers Toad's place as a shopkeeper, and everyone would recognize the blocks.

The Magic Carpet is viable, for sure, especially since they're also in 64 and is still used every once and awhile.

I could find more if you'd like, but I think that's more than enough for the specials at the very least.

If you'd like, I could compile a complete moveset with all moves having a source.

(That took far too long to type. I now respect YoshiandToad even more.)

 

[Arcadenik]

I'm still waiting until Super Mario 3D World's release. And even if Toad is not confirmed for Smash 4, at least Toad fans will have another masterpiece in which Toad is a playable character in.

That's something, at least. Some days, I feel like "Toad is going to be playable this time"... Other days, I feel like "Maybe Toad is not playable again"...

If Sakurai had said nothing about changing Peach's moveset, I would be very disappointed but I would tolerate the roster without Toad for the next six years...

But what Sakurai did was... Why would Sakurai show us a picture of Peach's Toad to make us think that Toad is deconfirmed again BUT then at the same time, he reiterates the very same logic that the Toad detractors have always used for over 10 years by casually mentioning that Peach's moveset is not finalized and her moveset "may be refreshed" by the time SSB4 is out... Giving the Toad fans some hope.

I think it would be cruel for Sakurai to give the Toad fans false hope if he never planned to add Toad. It is just as bad as what Sakurai is doing to the Ridley fans with all those Pyrosphere pictures, what with showing the holes in different angles and distances. At least Sakurai isn't constantly throwing Peach's Toad pictures at the Toad fans... Granted, the Toad detractors are throwing that one picture at the Toad fans so Sakurai doesn't have to.

 

[Pacack]

That's something, at least. Some days, I feel like "Toad is going to be playable this time"... Other days, I feel like "Maybe Toad is not playable again"...

If Sakurai had said nothing about changing Peach's moveset, I would be very disappointed but I would tolerate the roster without Toad for the next six years...

But what Sakurai did was... Why would Sakurai show us a picture of Peach's Toad to make us think that Toad is deconfirmed again BUT then at the same time, he reiterates the very same logic that the Toad detractors have always used for over 10 years by casually mentioning that Peach's moveset is not finalized and her moveset "may be refreshed" by the time SSB4 is out... Giving the Toad fans some hope.

I think it would be cruel for Sakurai to give the Toad fans false hope if he never planned to add Toad. It is just as bad as what Sakurai is doing to the Ridley fans with all those Pyrosphere pictures, what with showing the holes in different angles and distances. At least Sakurai isn't constantly throwing Peach's Toad pictures at the Toad fans... Granted, the Toad detractors are throwing that one picture at the Toad fans so Sakurai doesn't have to.

Honestly, I don't see why it mattered in the first place. There are multiple Toads with that color scheme, and, even so, the blue Toad is the main Toad now.

 

[Bowserlick]

Toad's speed is a known factor. Mariokart is one of the bigger selling series for Nintendo and Toad is either fast or good at acceleration or both.

In SMB2 Toad is the fastest. A game where all four characters received and maintained characteristics (Mario's all round stats, Luigi's big jump, Peach's float).

This is maintained in the newest game.

In the Mushroom Kingdom, Toad is known as being fast.

 

[APC99]

Wow, what happened here?

I'd debate Toad if I could, but... I'm so tired...

 

[YoshiandToad]

Yay.

:3

Certainly. Older fans matter, and they exist. Unfortunately, they're outnumbered by 11-16 year olds, who tend to have different characters and weapons/moves/etc. that they "grew up with", thus sticks in their memory.

Actually a fair point. Sometimes is difficult to remember when you and your friends still gather around a Nintendo console every other week, and pretty much everyone you know is a gamer of some description, or works in the game industry(not Nintendo though before anyone reading this thinks I'm trying to say I have inside info; I don't. Obviously.)

Partial agreement. I tend to put the most emphasis on major console titles, but they're certainly viable options.

If we go back to 2006, for example, you might have a casual saying 'I hope I can use Fludd in the next smash bros!" Then, if during Brawl's release, they might see the hammer and say, "oh yeah! That did exist. Cool!"

I've never played the Mario & Luigi series, so that was news to me. Nice to know.

I recommend playing at least one, they're surprisingly good. Maybe avoid Partners In Time though, I feel it's the weakest of the four(although I have yet to play Dream Team, I'm reliably informed it's a strong inclusion, just with a few minor issues).

My expectation* is probably a better word. For me, certainly it's more memorable, but I've never played SMB2. I have a feeling that if you polled Nintendo fans..
"Why is DK fast?" Many will sing the DK rap.
"Why is Pikachu fast?" Many will say "electric type"
"Why is Toad fast?" I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who pays great attention to this.
Having played Golden Sun (including last fall/winter) and absolutely loved it, my memory is getting foggy as to whether Mia is slower than Garet by default, or not. Obviously not a good comparison because there's so much more to remember in Golden Sun. I remember being distinctly surprised that Mia was "so slow," though.
Took some digging, but while writing this post I'm gonna guess she's slower than Garet.

Pikachu I agree on(although his speed is actually pretty dire considering his typing in game) since electric=fast. I guess if they played DK64 then they maaaay sing the rap. Or Melee and played a lot on the Kongo Jungle. Not really sure how many people associate DK with speed. Power; oh goodness yes.

I notice a lot of characters with the element of water are traditionally slower than those with fire elements. It's noticeable in the first Pokemon with the Kanto starters(ignoring how the speed was inverted within Brawl I mean) but was obviously played with more as generations passed on.

His shell is certainly more Unique, and more "Bowser," but when you think of Bowser, I think "Fire breath" comes way before "throws huge shells." That's what I mean by iconic.

Seems fair. We appear to just have a different opinion on what is iconic for a character. I'm more about visual stylings(how they fight and their appearence) and you're more about method of attack(what they fight with). I don't think either iconic definition is incorrect.

I've actually avoided "iconic" statements from Mario because, well, he's pretty much lacking them. But Mr. Nintendo is Mr. Nintendo. Fludd is probably the closest thing that comes to being "iconic" to Mario, but even that I guess is more properly "personal."

If you mean an item only he's used then yes. But with FLUDD only appearing the once, I find it trickier to class it as iconic. Personal works fine, but he's arguably also personal to E. Gadd.

Man, Mario actually doesn't have a lot that's exclusively him, huh?

I'm talking core. There are 50 year olds who play Nintendo, who started back in Arcades in college, but generally you see folks losing interest in Mario and Yoshi as they get older.

As careers and relationships creep in, I agree it's harder for older fans to remain as excited about Nintendo games, but there's certainly a market for them, especially since many will be having kids of their own who in turn will be introduced to Nintendo(it's the most family friendly console company after all).

Just like in a Pixar/Dreamworks movie where there's the odd joke for mum and dad thrown in to allow the film to be a family flick rather than just a pure kids film I believe little references to older mechanics have their place within future games. Particularly within Smash Bros since part of it does seem to be about celebrating Nintendo history.

Maybe the kids won't get all the references, but maybe they'll look into it. Maybe their elders will smile fondly whilst they play the 190th Mario game together and the experience will be all the better for it.

It's a variable and a situational variable at that, but one I feel will be important if Nintendo want to keep with their idea of family entertainment.

This applies to more than just Toad obviously, but I feel it's an important factor for Nintendo's future.

No huge disagreements. It certainly better than how Bowser's Children are treated. Kamek also has a decent amount of support. I still think Bowser Jr's role in NSMBWiiU is bigger than Toad's, almost entirely because Toads role is kind of a blank slab, that's just doing what all playable characters do entirely equally.

Debatable, obviously. Both roles are important; one's a player character, one is one of the two big secondary villains in the series.
However Nabbit is more than a blank slab, I'm sure you'll agree, but I wouldn't put his importance on the same level as either Toad, Luigi, Bowser Jr, Kamek or even the Koopalings. I think history and reoccurrence outweighs Nabbit's individualistic nature within Super Luigi U.

And I'm pretty sure all the FPS are all about multiplayer (unless you're differentiating between Multiplayer and Online.) .

I was on this point. I should have specified 'Local multiplayer'.

I think we'd have to take a poll to an Nintendo convention to settle this.

Agreed.

I accept Moneypak and Paypal.

Then it's a deal!

Caps lead me to assume that. My bad.

I came in here with one real argument: Severely lacking in moveset department when compared to other options. I still think this is the case, as I've only really been handed 3 examples (-maybe- propeller shroom, higher speed/stronger (strangely), and Wario's Woods.) To be blunt, I think these are really bad cases.
Donkey Kong's speed is super memorable to me for one reason, and one reason only: The DK rap. Almost everyone can get the first verse down (typical for most songs.) I don't think that assuming other folks are in this boat is pushing anything.
I'd like to note, I don't think it's a very important factor. I think it's kinda cool, but not an important factor. My point was that it's more fitting/personal with DK (almost entirely due to the rap) than Toad's +2 speed is for him (in a significantly older game.)

So DK's speed is memorable due to a theme song? I agree about it probably not being the most important part of DK's character since the first thing I tend to think of is his immense power first and foremost. Then maybe bongos and bananas. Or Coconuts.

Toad's speed however IS an important part of Toad as a player character which is why I keep stating it over and over. It might not seem important, but Toad's playstyle within SMB2 was for more advanced players since his jumps would require far more practical timing and his speed was perfect for speed running a level.

Since I don't think DK's speed is "all that important," I tend to view Toad's speed is "barely anything to note."

That's your choice I guess. I'll admit he's not Sonic the Hedgehog level of intensity, because obviously he's not. Being the helpful items guy who often supplies Mario/Luigi with their various power ups(like some sort of non passive aggressive Tom Nook), and physical speed and power. These are Toad's positive traits. Low weight, crappy jumps and cowardice are his weaknesses.

Isaac > Diskun

100000000% agree.

Ridley sucks, Krystal rocks, R.O.B. isn't coming back, Chrom & Ike can't both exist, Dixie Kong is very unlikely, and the government is lying to you about World War 2.

Not a fan of Ridley. Indifferent to Krystal, just prefer Wolf to her. R.O.B. whilst offering a different playstyle isn't a character I'd particularly miss. Ike>Chrom even though Awakening was my first FE game...

...DIXIE IS UNLIKELY?

RIVALRY ACTIVATED.

(Our government is pretty bad at lying about WW2 honestly.)

 

[EddyBearr]

I'm sorry, I meant to say no moveset potential in comparison to other candidates.
Which I still see as ludicrous, but that's for another day.

Show me that his moveset potential is anywhere close to Krystal or other characters that "could" get "considered."

Honestly, I have to give you more things that are good for movesets if you've only had 3 (that stick out, at least)

The three you listed are all viable, except propeller shroom, in my opinion, since it requires a suit to be done.

I consider it semi-viable. The problem is, it isn't special to Toad, just to a game that multiple characters were able to play. Mario's fireball and cape are also lacking their respective power-ups.

The higher speed will be recognized by more people than you think it will. Mainly due to Mario Kart in all honesty, but also due to Mario Sports Mix and SM3DW, which Sakurai would've likely known of at the time of Toad's development if he was considering him. The strength is less iconic, to be sure. The thing that's important with those, however, is that they tell you two BIG things: a characters movement speed, and a character's overall attack power. It matters less about how recognizable it is than how useful it is for this one.

The problem? You can make any character fast or strong. How is Toad in his own games going to be represented in Smash, which Sakurai said he cares about?

The more a person see's a character and says, "Oh I know that!" the better.

Mario Kart and MSM, I'm doubting. Toad isn't even very fast in Mario Kart.
SM3DW might be too new. We have to work with something Sakurai decided during Smash 4's development. Unless he was specifically told "SM3DW will bring back a few Toad things" before he made a decision on Toad, we can't use it. We have no way of knowing whether or not he has decided on Toad.

Wario's Woods is less iconic than a lot of things, but it's notable for being Toad's very own game, and it could do with a reference, especially because it's so unique an idea.

So in other words, Wario's Woods is a bad source for personal character traits, but it's okay since it's basically Toad's only option? That sounds like apologizing. Simultaneously, anything could do with a reference to make it a better source, so that's also not an argument.

Note: I am not using the sports titles because I don't think Toad should use them, but they are still viable options, as it could be applied just as easily to Toad as Waluigi, which, in my opinion, already gives Toad most of the moveset potential Waluigi has.

And Peach, Luigi, Daisy, and Koopa Troopa. I tend to view sports pretty poorly, but if a character is absolutely necessary (Peach,) then I let it slide.

Grabbing from SMB2. It's a fairly iconic power because it's actually stayed/returned in games like NSMBWii in some form. I assume you know how it works in the original game, so I won't bother explaining that. When it comes to NSMBWii, the concept seemed to return in the form of shaking the Wii remote to carry an object or another character. I can't say for certain that this was a direct allusion to SMB2, but I'd think it does since it has a similar animation for carrying things:

To be blunt, I don't think that's anything. It has never been unique to Toad, and it's just as likely to be an allusion to almost any Zelda game, because that's how they carry as well. It's just plain how things get carried by bipedal organisms.

And, if it isn't an allusion to it, then it's still a viable move. (Fun fact, it's alluded to in Wario's Woods)

That has almost nothing to do with Toad. Isn't there anything truly Toad, truly special to him, that you have?

Power Squat Jump is also viable, and I believe that's been explained. (It was recently referenced in SM3DL, since Mario and Luigi perform a powerful jump when after crouching, which would make it recognizable to new players) and it's viable as either an up special, down special, or mechanic.

At this point, SM3DL should just stop getting mentioned. We don't know if it's a factor.
Power Jump Squat, sure, of course he could use it. Is it anything that's truly him, though? That's what I'm missing the most.

Pulling something out of the ground is also viable, though I'd suggest either the large turnips, mushroom blocks, or koopa shells since you can pull those out of the ground (I may be wrong on the mushroom blocks). POW blocks, Eggs, keys, and bombs are also viable items.

So he steal's what has become Peach's thunder? Sure, they were on equal grounds pre-melee, but not now.

Using mushrooms is viable, but not necessarily the most iconic thing, and I understand you not liking it.

Using powerups is viable, even if it's not the most viable thing in most cases (I try to make movesets without them), although I would see them doing something like the ice flower if for no reason other than to make him share a move with the Mario bros.

Powerups is "borderline" on moveset. It's an okay thing, but really he needs more than "just a bunch of kinda ok" moves.

Mushrooms is basically only argued "cause he's a mushroom." That's basically a practical move, very genertic.

Spores are viable as well, but I'm not that big a fan, as it's too similar to Peach's B move.

Also basically only because "he's a mushroom."

Using items like boxes is certainly viable, makes sense when one considers Toad's place as a shopkeeper, and everyone would recognize the blocks.

The Magic Carpet is viable, for sure, especially since they're also in 64 and is still used every once and awhile.

None of which seem all that special to Toad. They're just generic Mario items.

I could find more if you'd like, but I think that's more than enough for the specials at the very least.

Find me some special moves that for specials, not just "well I guess it's there" moves.

If you'd like, I could compile a complete moveset with all moves having a source.

Typically in movesets, I think of ideal as : A couple iconic moves, upwards of a dozen personal moves (semi-personal can fill a few, [Nayru's love is semi-personal. Same game, requires magic, requires royal family, might even require triforce {idk about that.}]) then fill the rest with practical or borderline moves. For Toad, I've been handed a ton of borderline and practical moves.

Seems fair. We appear to just have a different opinion on what is iconic for a character. I'm more about visual stylings(how they fight and their appearence) and you're more about method of attack(what they fight with). I don't think either iconic definition is incorrect.

If you were to poll "general Nintendo fans," asking them what "specific character does," then iconic is something a plurality would respond with.

If you mean an item only he's used then yes. But with FLUDD only appearing the once, I find it trickier to class it as iconic. Personal works fine, but he's arguably also personal to E. Gadd.

Man, Mario actually doesn't have a lot that's exclusively him, huh?

If an item/move multiple folks can use exists, but it's primarily known for a specific character, than it should be able to be called personal.
Cape, Fireball, dash attack, jab combo, down smash, Super-Jump Punch, F and b-throw
Borderline: Mario Tornado, U-Tilt, d-air.

There's probably more, in games I haven't played.

So DK's speed is memorable due to a theme song? I agree about it probably not being the most important part of DK's character since the first thing I tend to think of is his immense power first and foremost. Then maybe bongos and bananas. Or Coconuts.

Same myself. I remember hearing the DK rap once while playing as DK on Melee, and thinking' Woww!! That's right!"
DK Rap is so memorable. Lol.

Toad's speed however IS an important part of Toad as a player character which is why I keep stating it over and over. It might not seem important, but Toad's playstyle within SMB2 was for more advanced players since his jumps would require far more practical timing and his speed was perfect for speed running a level.

So now we're not only going for something that's quite old, and quite hard to notice, but targets a more serious audience. It's only getting worse. Lol

Not a fan of Ridley. Indifferent to Krystal, just prefer Wolf to her. R.O.B. whilst offering a different playstyle isn't a character I'd particularly miss. Ike>Chrom even though Awakening was my first FE game...

...DIXIE IS UNLIKELY?

RIVALRY ACTIVATED.

(Our government is pretty bad at lying about WW2 honestly.)

Dixie is Diddy Kong with hair. >

Didn't respond to anything I had nothing much to say to.

 

[APC99]

...I'm 14 and me and my Smash friends all want to see Toad... In fact, most people in my school who play Smash would like to see Toad playable over Bowser Junior.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Show me that his moveset potential is anywhere close to Krystal or other characters that "could" get "considered."

Only because she has a singular item that separates her from the rest of Team Star Fox; the staff. And Fox has used it. Technically it's not even something only she can use since Fox managed to wield it's power, so I don't think it's that different a situation; and is the same as arguing why Toad cannot use a pluck style move that he's used more than Peach in the past(and with better results).

I'm not sure about this so feel free to set me right on this point, but does she even use it after StarFox Adventures?

I consider it semi-viable. The problem is, it isn't special to Toad, just to a game that multiple characters were able to play. Mario's fireball and cape are also lacking their respective power-ups.

Again, nothing Mario or Luigi have are special to themselves, since they could both use the cape and the fire flower. Mario's FLUDD, although hardly what we first think of when thinking of Mario, is the exception.

The problem? You can make any character fast or strong. How is Toad in his own games going to be represented in Smash, which Sakurai said he cares about?

How does Captain Falcon do anything that any other F-Zero character wouldn't be able to do? Or Falco? Toad using abilities that have been used in the Mario series that has barely been touched upon seems acceptable to me, particularly if he's used them. Acceptable, but not my favourite option.

The more a person see's a character and says, "Oh I know that!" the better.

Then you can do a LOT worse than Toad. Everyone knows Toad even if they don't know of his playable past.

Mario Kart and MSM, I'm doubting. Toad isn't even very fast in Mario Kart.
SM3DW might be too new. We have to work with something Sakurai decided during Smash 4's development. Unless he was specifically told "SM3DW will bring back a few Toad things" before he made a decision on Toad, we can't use it. We have no way of knowing whether or not he has decided on Toad.

I actually agree on Mario Kart being a poor indicator of Toad's speed, although fast characters as a rule within Mario Kart (ironically) have poor top speed(see Yoshi and Koopa Troopa as well as Toad who are usually all speedy characters in other spinoffs), but great acceleration. Bowser meanwhile has a great top speed, but I always put that down to having to require a stronger engine to lug the additional weight. It's not a good indicator however.

Although it's arguable whether we're counting Toad's speed within spinoffs as well, but he is usually a fast character.

Also, whilst we don't know for sure, I believe it's fair to reason Sakurai would PROBABLY know about a game like 3D World. It's Mario which is basically Nintendo. It must of been in the works as he was deciding the roster. Again; this doesn't mean anything regarding Toad, but I'd like to think people keep him informed on what they're working on since his game is a collaboration of all Nintendo games. It'd seem ridiculous to not inform him on what was happening within the company even if it had nothing to do with Smash.

So in other words, Wario's Woods is a bad source for personal character traits, but it's okay since it's basically Toad's only option? That sounds like apologizing. Simultaneously, anything could do with a reference to make it a better source, so that's also not an argument.

Not at all. If Toad ONLY appeared in Wario's Woods, then sure. But he hasn't. Since you want examples of things only he does within a game, then Wario's Woods is the only example, and that's simply because he's the only character and in all other Mario games ALL the protagonists are given the same tools to work with and tweaks to jumping, speed or in Peach's case; floating.

However since you're adamant that Toad cannot use an item unless only HE has used it, yes we're stuck with Wario's Woods for inspiration. Just like if I was arguing for Bowser Jr I'd have to use Mario Sunshine as it's the only place he can use something that his dad could not.

And Peach, Luigi, Daisy, and Koopa Troopa. I tend to view sports pretty poorly, but if a character is absolutely necessary (Peach,) then I let it slide.

I do agree. Although this makes me even more puzzled over why you request Waluigi on a side note.

To be blunt, I don't think that's anything. It has never been unique to Toad, and it's just as likely to be an allusion to almost any Zelda game, because that's how they carry as well. It's just plain how things get carried by bipedal organisms.

I hope you meant in video games with that last bit. It's a great way to break your spine IRL.

That has almost nothing to do with Toad. Isn't there anything truly Toad, truly special to him, that you have?

I've previously suggested Toad House stuff, but he also hosted the Mario Party games until people demanded he was playable. He's had a few roles that have been unique to him alone, but you're asking for specifically combat related things which is where we're getting an issue.

No Mario character outside Yoshi, Wario and Bowser Jr(and only because of his paintbrush) really has this, because they all share the same items or attacks.

I wonder if Tom Nook or Anna have anything special about them that Villager or any swords user cannot already do when it comes to pure combat.

At this point, SM3DL should just stop getting mentioned. We don't know if it's a factor.
Power Jump Squat, sure, of course he could use it. Is it anything that's truly him, though? That's what I'm missing the most.

SM3D World does prove that the individual characteristics of the Mario protagonist quad are remembered. Else why include them?

So he steal's what has become Peach's thunder? Sure, they were on equal grounds pre-melee, but not now.

Peach by this point really should of been using her Super Princess Peach abilities if we're honest. Also she was terrible at picking up items. Also again, there's more than Turnips.

BTW why has no one suggested the Subcon potion yet? That would be fun to play with and you could get quite creative with that for a Final Smash.

Powerups is "borderline" on moveset. It's an okay thing, but really he needs more than "just a bunch of kinda ok" moves.

Mushrooms is basically only argued "cause he's a mushroom." That's basically a practical move, very genertic.

Also basically only because "he's a mushroom."

Agree on all these points. They're fine, but there are more creative options to pull from Toad's past. Hell, if Peach is allowed Toad Guard, which is nothing more than a gag that gets less and less funny with time, why not bring Toad's Bazooka into battle from SMRPG?

If you were to poll "general Nintendo fans," asking them what "specific character does," then iconic is something a plurality would respond with.

In which case Peach's thing would be "Get kidnapped", Mario would be "Beat up Bowser", Bowser's would be "Kidnap Peach" and Luigi's would be "Get ignored for comic effect".
(I love Luigi)

If an item/move multiple folks can use exists, but it's primarily known for a specific character, than it should be able to be called personal.
Cape, Fireball, dash attack, jab combo, down smash, Super-Jump Punch, F and b-throw
Borderline: Mario Tornado, U-Tilt, d-air.

There's probably more, in games I haven't played.

In that case Propeller cap and golden mushroom does work for Toad since in the promotional material for the NSMBWii games Toad is the one showcased using the former, and golden mushroom is an exclusive item to him and Toadette; both Toads.

Same myself. I remember hearing the DK rap once while playing as DK on Melee, and thinking' Woww!! That's right!"
DK Rap is so memorable. Lol.

Your milage may vary on whether this memorability is good or not.

So now we're not only going for something that's quite old, and quite hard to notice, but targets a more serious audience. It's only getting worse. Lol

It's really not. Nor is it hard to spot when you played the game. At all. It's not even that obscure!

Dixie is Diddy Kong with hair. >

Still a rather important Donkey Kong character. K. Rool has as much chance(and they might both make it yet; I feel more confident about either of them than Toad), but if we get a singular newcomer semi clone this time round I'd bet on Dixie.

Didn't respond to anything I had nothing much to say to.

Damn. That's a shame; I was looking forward to your thoughts regarding my section about including references for the parental gamer to enjoy whilst playing alongside the next generation in future games. Would you not like to see a reference to Super Mario World or Mario 64 appear three consoles from now and notice your sprog playing something that you held dear in your childhood?


Obviously this relates to 3D World coming out with them bringing back the older abilities of the characters. But I'd like your opinion on whether or not you believe bringing back ideas that worked well in the past is a good or bad thing?

Is it good because it allows for you to gather the best parts of the past and try something new with it, or is it bad because Nintendo are going back to try and tested formulas that they think will sell easily?

(I'm aware this is Nintendo's stance on everything already guys before anyone points this out)

 

[Pacack]

I consider it semi-viable. The problem is, it isn't special to Toad, just to a game that multiple characters were able to play. Mario's fireball and cape are also lacking their respective power-ups.

I honestly don't think that's that big a problem. If Toad is known for using it along with the Mario bros, and the Mario bros don't use them, then why shouldn't Toad use it? It's something familiar that people will at least link to Mario games, even if it's not specific to Toad.

The problem? You can make any character fast or strong. How is Toad in his own games going to be represented in Smash, which Sakurai said he cares about?

That's the thing, since Toad IS fast and strong in his own games, making him fast and strong in Smash bros would make perfect sense and would represent a part of Toad's character at the same time (it's not like making Mewtwo slow when he's fast in his games, it actually makes sense).

The more a person see's a character and says, "Oh I know that!" the better.

The thing about representing Toad is that, since he's never been the main character (except in Wario's Woods), the most recognizable things he does are also done by other characters, so you can't have something that makes people go "Oh, I know that!" without it being shared by multiple characters. Does that make the moves less iconic? Not at all. It's just like Mario having fireballs; they aren't specific to him, but they're an iconic part of Mario games.

Mario Kart and MSM, I'm doubting. Toad isn't even very fast in Mario Kart.
SM3DW might be too new. We have to work with something Sakurai decided during Smash 4's development. Unless he was specifically told "SM3DW will bring back a few Toad things" before he made a decision on Toad, we can't use it. We have no way of knowing whether or not he has decided on Toad.

In Mario Kart, Toad is typically a lightweight, fast character. His speed is mainly based in his acceleration, however. I don't have anything to say about MSM, since I honestly don't know a lot about it, myself.
SM3DW is not necessarily too new. Want to know why? We have content in the game already from newly released titles: Sonic has a Lost Worlds stage (when it was just released today), we have Xerneas as a Pokeball (X and Y came out very recently), and there'll likely be more game content to come. I would bet that development on SM3DW was started right after they were done with SM3DL, so Sakurai would've likely been informed of it.

So in other words, Wario's Woods is a bad source for personal character traits, but it's okay since it's basically Toad's only option? That sounds like apologizing. Simultaneously, anything could do with a reference to make it a better source, so that's also not an argument.

Not at all! It's not a bad source for personal character traits, and it's a title worthy of a reference since it's Toad's only game where he's the sole protagonist. The bombs are something very unique that only a character like Bomberman has anything similar to, and he's obviously not getting in, so why not use it as a move? It's unique to him, after all.

And Peach, Luigi, Daisy, and Koopa Troopa. I tend to view sports pretty poorly, but if a character is absolutely necessary (Peach,) then I let it slide.

No arguments there.

To be blunt, I don't think that's anything. It has never been unique to Toad, and it's just as likely to be an allusion to almost any Zelda game, because that's how they carry as well. It's just plain how things get carried by bipedal organisms.

It has never been unique to Toad, but he was the strongest character in SMB2, and, as such, the grabbing and throwing opponents is most associated with him. And I don't think it's a coincidence that it returns in NSMBWii, but that's debatable. Regardless, no other character has a grabbing move that works the same way.

That has almost nothing to do with Toad. Isn't there anything truly Toad, truly special to him, that you have?

Of course it has to do with Toad! He uses it in three different games, and no other Mario character does it in SSB. And anything that is only Toad's (Wario's Woods, Golden Mushroom, Spores) you have dismissed. You can have something that's more iconic, is not used by any character in SSB, but is not unique to Toad in his own game (like Peach's turnips), or you can have something unique that is not instantly recognizable, but is interesting and can be used. I think that Toad has some very viable moves that represent parts of the Mario games that are not already represented in Smash Bros, and that's where his strengths lie. It does not matter if it's unique to Toad; if he can use them, they're viable for making a moveset. Heck, even stuff that he doesn't use is viable if we're going by the precedent set in Super Smash Bros., since Zelda uses moves that she has never been able to use, even if they're in her game.

At this point, SM3DL should just stop getting mentioned. We don't know if it's a factor.

Land is viable for sure, even if World is not. Land is the one for the 3DS that has been released for some time now.

Power Jump Squat, sure, of course he could use it. Is it anything that's truly him, though? That's what I'm missing the most

In SMB2, the Power Jump Squat was most useful for Toad, as he was the weakest jumper and could not reach certain areas easily without it. It is also not used by any character yet to be in Smash Bros., so it's more than viable.

So he steal's what has become Peach's thunder? Sure, they were on equal grounds pre-melee, but not now.

First of all, pulling turnips has never been unique to Peach (just as the Power Squat Jump isn't for Toad), and it's never really been a defining move until Smash Bros. Secondly, I imagine Toad might be at least a conceptual clone of Peach and the Mario bros. (just to save development time), so it's just another option.

Powerups is "borderline" on moveset. It's an okay thing, but really he needs more than "just a bunch of kinda ok" moves.

Opinion. Fireballs are a thing, so powerups are completely viable for Toad. I wouldn't use them, myself, but that's a preference thing on my part, since he has plenty of other things to pull from.

Mushrooms is basically only argued "cause he's a mushroom." That's basically a practical move, very genertic.

Actually, Toad uses mushrooms for his special abilities in multiple Mario Kart games.
Quote about Super Mario Kart:
"Whenever Toad is left as a CPU or a non player character, his special ability is throwing Poison Mushrooms that make another player shrink when hit (an ability that he shares with Princess Toadstool)."

About Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
"His and Toadette's special item is the Golden Mushroom."

About Mario Kart Arcade GP:
"Toad makes an appearance in arcade exclusive game Mario Kart Arcade GP as a playable racer. Featured as a light weight character, Toad's special items in this game are the Miracle Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Mushroom Hammer, and Mushroom Powder."

So, no, it's not just because "he's a mushroom." It's because they're special moves that he uses in his games.

Also basically only because "he's a mushroom."

Not just because he's a mushroom, even if the original concept was made because he was a mushroom.

"While it is not common within the Mario series, Toad has also been able to emit spores as his own unique special ability. This ability is given a preview in the earlier games when he is hit by a powerful force as seen in Mario Tennis for the Nintendo 64 and the Super Smash Bros. (though it is the latter game series that he is shown to be able to use this technique as an offensive attack). However, Mario Sports Mix (for the Wii) further explores Toad's hidden talent by allowing him to use spores to cause mushrooms to sprout from the ground. Toad is capable of using this move as a recovery move. Toad is also able to create a shield of spores as a deflective move. Additionally, Toad's special move in this game involves him emitting many spores to cause gargantuan mushrooms to grow from the ground. These large mushrooms are then able to move in a rotational pattern, and are able to knock out any opponent who attempts to get closer to the mushrooms. Toad completes his attack by throwing a shot full of fungi material at his goal."

See, he uses this as his own, unique special ability.

None of which seem all that special to Toad. They're just generic Mario items.

None of which are used by other characters in Smash Bros., making them both viable if you want to, even though he has enough elsewhere if you don't want to use that.

Find me some special moves that for specials, not just "well I guess it's there" moves.

Typically in movesets, I think of ideal as : A couple iconic moves, upwards of a dozen personal moves (semi-personal can fill a few, [Nayru's love is semi-personal. Same game, requires magic, requires royal family, might even require triforce {idk about that.}]) then fill the rest with practical or borderline moves. For Toad, I've been handed a ton of borderline and practical moves.

Has my elaborating on these moves shown you that they are personal and unique to Toad yet? I need your feedback before I respond to this. I believe the mushrooms, spores, and bombs all fit as iconic to Toad specifically.

If an item/move multiple folks can use exists, but it's primarily known for a specific character, than it should be able to be called personal.
Cape, Fireball, dash attack, jab combo, down smash, Super-Jump Punch, F and b-throw
Borderline: Mario Tornado, U-Tilt, d-air.

There's probably more, in games I haven't played.

Power Squat Jump, grabbing and throwing enemies, using items, using powerups. I can come up with other moves for the physical attacks if you want.

 

[YoshiandToad]

See Pacack?

Not only did you manage to make a reasonable argument, you even touched on points I had completely forgotten about such as new content been already shown within SSB4, and Toad's spores being in Mario Tennis. Guess they were around longer than I recalled.

 

[Pacack]

See Pacack?

Not only did you manage to make a reasonable argument, you even touched on points I had completely forgotten about such as new content been already shown within SSB4, and Toad's spores being in Mario Tennis. Guess they were around longer than I recalled.

I always do my research before I post, yeah. I helps that I've been obsessed with the concept of Toad in SSB.

 

[Bowserlick]

EddyBearr, you certainly have made his thread interesting and have engaged quite a few people. And I respect you for trying to use logic to convey your opinion.

But the only thing I can't wrap my head around, is that after all the criteria you have constructed for why Toad should or could not get in, you don't see a problem with Waluigi.

I would love to see a Waluigi moveset from you that also matches your criteria.

 

[Arcadenik]

But the only thing I can't wrap my head around, is that after all the criteria you have constructed for why Toad should or could not get in, you don't see a problem with Waluigi.

What criteria is EddyBearr using? I am confused...

 

[Bowserlick]

Namely not having iconic moves, traits, and moves that other characters can do.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Toad IMO should feel like a Mario-character yet also himself. I think more to lean on latter but at the same time he just has a lot of his own qualities which, if build and done very well, would make Toad perhaps one of the more popular Mario-characters.

 

[Jaedrik]

Default Toad color doesn't matter, because he will invariably have normal Toad or Blue Toad or whatever coloring anyways for his other pallets. Wait, what am I doing here?

 

[Pacack]

Anyone know where EddyBear went?

 

[Arcadenik]

I'm still waiting until Super Mario 3D World's release. And even if Toad is not confirmed for Smash 4, at least Toad fans will have another masterpiece in which Toad is a playable character in.

Since Sakurai did not reveal Mii for Wii Party U on October 25, 2013... it is safe to assume that Sakurai is not revealing newcomers for a long time... maybe we won't get to see any new newcomers till next year... so even if Sakurai does not reveal Toad for Super Mario 3D World on November 21, 2013, it does not mean anything either way.

 

[Zyfoe]

TOADS ON PARADE!

THEY RALLY ROUND THE FAMILY!

WITH A POCKET FULL OF SHELLS!

 

[RelaxAlax]

I'd just like to interject on a thought, haven't been here in months xD

Sakurai has reveal all the Mario reps already - Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser (If you don't count Yoshi and Wario. cause I don't)

He MUST be saving atleast one. That is Toads lifeline, for me.
And the fact he said Peachs moveset isn't finalized and Toad could be Blue toad :D

 

[YoshiandToad]

Since Sakurai did not reveal Mii for Wii Party U on October 25, 2013... it is safe to assume that Sakurai is not revealing newcomers for a long time... maybe we won't get to see any new newcomers till next year... so even if Sakurai does not reveal Toad for Super Mario 3D World on November 21, 2013, it does not mean anything either way.

Seems like a good thing to bare in mind. Between the Mii's/Little Mac/Pac-Man non appearances and the lack of a Pokemon update, it's looking increasingly unlikely we're going to see any more newcomers this year.

Eddybearr's been around incidentally, but he's not replied to this thread.
If I was a betting man, I'd put it down to the sheer amount of time it takes for the debate posts me, him and Pacack have traded over the past page or two.

Still, I AM super hyped for 3D World regardless. I haven't been this excited about a Mario game in years. This may even be the game that convinces me to go get a Wii U. Was gonna be Smash 4, but this looks oh so tempting.

I'd just like to interject on a thought, haven't been here in months xD

Sakurai has reveal all the Mario reps already - Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser (If you don't count Yoshi and Wario. cause I don't)

He MUST be saving atleast one. That is Toads lifeline, for me.
And the fact he said Peachs moveset isn't finalized and Toad could be Blue toad :D

Thoughts like this is what keeps Toad support sticking around, so I welcome it!

Although equally it could be Bowser Jr., Waluigi, Paper Mario or even...Doctor Mario. Hope for the best, expect the worst fellow Toad cadet.