Toad parade - Oh boy it's Els--- I mean, Rosalina

[Curious Villager]

Wasn't Dr. Mario also a part of the whole Forbidden Seven thing? :/ I believe the only Melee veterans who had no plans of being brought back at all were Young Link and Pichu.

 

[Pacack]

Wasn't Dr. Mario also a part of the whole Forbidden Seven thing? :/ I believe the only Melee veterans who had no plans of being brought back at all were Young Link and Pichu.

Just looked it up, and apparently so. Odd. I still don't see Dr. Mario getting back in as anything other than an alternate outfit, though.

 

[KokiriKory]

I don't really have much to contribute, other than I think it's just crazy he hasn't been included yet.

 

[EddyBearr]

1. Nobody said this would be his entire moveset. This would be 1 move obviously and I see no problem with that when one, it's a small vehicle and two, Wario uses his motorcycle in his moveset.
2. Spores have tons of moveset potential. They could be used similarly to how they are in Peach's special as a counter or physical attack, could induce effects like dazed state, or inflict poison. You're overlooking a lot and honestly, I don't know where you were going with the whole spore tether thing as I haven't heard anyone mention it being used like that.
3. What's wrong with using headbutts? He's got a big head! Are we now supposed to condemn Mario because he does generic punches and kicking as well?
4.You act as if those are the only two power-ups that he can use. Besides, it's not as if he needs 20+ special moves anyways; He needs 4. With as much moveset potential that Link has, you don't see him throwing out a new item for all his standard attacks now do you.

1. It's still not unique to toad, unlike Wario's motorcycle, which existed before Brawl as an entirely unique part of Wario's character, endemic to his own games. This is nothing special about toad. I also never said it would be his "entire moveset," and I was intending to imply it'd be "a few moves at most," but that's just it with toad. You can find traits that aren't unique to Toad, give him a "few moves at most" about that, and you end up with a character with no personal moves, and tbh a pretty quirky/inconsistent moveset (unlike Link where he uses his trademark weapon, DK where he uses his trademark brute, mario and his trademark fists of glory..etc.)
2. I know spores have plenty of moveset potential, but nothing canon has ever suggested Toads can use these spores in any meaningful manner. The only thing that has ever been shown in games is that spores can fall out when disrupted. None of this implies any decent level of self-control or using it as any form of offense. Again, there is nothing personal about Toad using spores as a weapon, as it's never come close to being implied officially.
3. Headbutts are fine for a few moves, and characters that can headbutt should have the right to, for a move or two. Adding a few generic attacks that make sense is never a problem, but the problem with toad is that he totally lacks truly unique attacks. We won't condemn Mario because his "generic punching & kicking" is also personal, from his jab combo, to his dash attack, to his down smash.
4. There the only mildly unique power-ups I've ever seen him use, barring random mario party items that, once again, apply just as well to a koopa troopa as him. He needs 20+ moves, and 4 moves being personal (special in the sense that it has something to do with him as a character,) simply isn't enough. And no, Link is far more personal than that. From his jab combo, to his dair, to his grab & tether, and before melee, his forward smash as well. When you add up the tally of unique traits & moves that affect gameplay, Link has at 10+. Mario has 10+. How many truly unique and personal moves will toad have, that will end up relating to Toad as a character and how Toad acts/plays in his games?

*If you did even the slightest amount of research then you'd be able to see the glaring flaws in those arguments.

If the flaws were listed in your rebuttal, then I'm sorry to tell you that they simply did not cut it.

I don't think he cares about flaws in his logic... he admitted he is against Toad's inclusion after all.

I'm against Toad's inclusion because I fail to see not only personal moveset/character potential, but also any flaws in my logic. Though I'm not exactly a fan of the character, I won't blatantly oppose a character who would work very well, just be more indifferent.


For the movesets listed above.

Power Up!!!: I already criticized the concept of using generic mario power ups on Toad. The biggest flaws with that concept are, 1. It prevents Toad form being himself (because there's nothing much to himself in regards to fighting,) and 2. They'd be better on Mario, Luigi, or Peach (EX: Giving Mario or Luigi a glide due to the raccoon thing or a cape or etc.
Mushrooms: Same problems as with Power Up!!!
Toad Houses: A mixture of two the above problems, and of trying to turn "stage aspects" which had nothing to nothing to do with an individual toad into personal moves. These would be far more fitting as stage aspects.


Moveset "Potential" doesn't mean "Can he do things." A box of corn flakes has "potential" in that it can "do things." It can open up and throw corn flakes at you, flatten you, tumble around you, consume you (how ironic,) and etc. The problem is, the box of corn flakes has no moveset potential if you're looking for moves that relate personally to the character as a fighter and/or "doer." EX: G&W wasn't a "fighter," but he was shown as capable of using all his moves as "doer," and the idea of the vast majority of them causing damage wasn't exactly far-fetched. Same with Villager (to a lesser extent because you could harass townspeople,) and WFT. Only glaring counter-examples I can think of are Captain Falcon (I think we can all agree that he ended up working out just fine, which should make sense since a big athletic muscle man should have tons more fighting potential than a stubby-limbed walking mushroom, plus the fan reaction to Captain Falcon has been extraordinary) and R.O.B. (I have a feeling R.O.B. will get cut.) Zelda not so much due to solid extrapolation with shared-but-unique-traits, plus tastes of her own abilities in previous games.

Isaac from Golden Sun has amazing moveset potential. Shulk has amazing moveset potential. Before inclusion, Samus, Ness, Mario, Link, Pikachu, Megaman, Marth, Diddy Kong, Metaknight, and DK had massive moveset potential. Before inclusion, Yoshi, ZSS, Zelda, Peach, and Fox had decent moveset potential. Waluigi, Bowser Jr, and Krystal all have solid moveset potential (as "Borderline" characters.) These characters all have unique traits that can translate, directly, kind-of-indirectly, or without-the-need-of-translation, into solid and unique fighting moves. What does Toad have?

For future reference for Toad supporters, "if you researched it you'd find it wrong," or "detractors are sorely mistaken" aren't exactly arguments. You'll find I can be pretty reasonable when confronted with reasonable info, but I'm not seeing any of that with Toad.

 

[SmashShadow]

1. It's still not unique to toad, unlike Wario's motorcycle, which existed before Brawl as an entirely unique part of Wario's character, endemic to his own games. This is nothing special about toad. I also never said it would be his "entire moveset," and I was intending to imply it'd be "a few moves at most," but that's just it with toad. You can find traits that aren't unique to Toad, give him a "few moves at most" about that, and you end up with a character with no personal moves, and tbh a pretty quirky/inconsistent moveset (unlike Link where he uses his trademark weapon, DK where he uses his trademark brute, mario and his trademark fists of glory..etc.)
2. I know spores have plenty of moveset potential, but nothing canon has ever suggested Toads can use these spores in any meaningful manner. The only thing that has ever been shown in games is that spores can fall out when disrupted. None of this implies any decent level of self-control or using it as any form of offense. Again, there is nothing personal about Toad using spores as a weapon, as it's never come close to being implied officially.
3. Headbutts are fine for a few moves, and characters that can headbutt should have the right to, for a move or two. Adding a few generic attacks that make sense is never a problem, but the problem with toad is that he totally lacks truly unique attacks. We won't condemn Mario because his "generic punching & kicking" is also personal, from his jab combo, to his dash attack, to his down smash.
4. There the only mildly unique power-ups I've ever seen him use, barring random mario party items that, once again, apply just as well to a koopa troopa as him. He needs 20+ moves, and 4 moves being personal (special in the sense that it has something to do with him as a character,) simply isn't enough. And no, Link is far more personal than that. From his jab combo, to his dair, to his grab & tether, and before melee, his forward smash as well. When you add up the tally of unique traits & moves that affect gameplay, Link has at 10+. Mario has 10+. How many truly unique and personal moves will toad have, that will end up relating to Toad as a character and how Toad acts/plays in his games?


If the flaws were listed in your rebuttal, then I'm sorry to tell you that they simply did not cut it.


I'm against Toad's inclusion because I fail to see not only personal moveset/character potential, but also any flaws in my logic. Though I'm not exactly a fan of the character, I won't blatantly oppose a character who would work very well, just be more indifferent.


For the movesets listed above.

Power Up!!!: I already criticized the concept of using generic mario power ups on Toad. The biggest flaws with that concept are, 1. It prevents Toad form being himself (because there's nothing much to himself in regards to fighting,) and 2. They'd be better on Mario, Luigi, or Peach (EX: Giving Mario or Luigi a glide due to the raccoon thing or a cape or etc.
Mushrooms: Same problems as with Power Up!!!
Toad Houses: A mixture of two the above problems, and of trying to turn "stage aspects" which had nothing to nothing to do with an individual toad into personal moves. These would be far more fitting as stage aspects.


Moveset "Potential" doesn't mean "Can he do things." A box of corn flakes has "potential" in that it can "do things." It can open up and throw corn flakes at you, flatten you, tumble around you, consume you (how ironic,) and etc. The problem is, the box of corn flakes has no moveset potential if you're looking for moves that relate personally to the character as a fighter and/or "doer." EX: G&W wasn't a "fighter," but he was shown as capable of using all his moves as "doer," and the idea of the vast majority of them causing damage wasn't exactly far-fetched. Same with Villager (to a lesser extent because you could harass townspeople,) and WFT. Only glaring counter-examples I can think of are Captain Falcon (I think we can all agree that he ended up working out just fine, which should make sense since a big athletic muscle man should have tons more fighting potential than a stubby-limbed walking mushroom, plus the fan reaction to Captain Falcon has been extraordinary) and R.O.B. (I have a feeling R.O.B. will get cut.) Zelda not so much due to solid extrapolation with shared-but-unique-traits, plus tastes of her own abilities in previous games.

Isaac from Golden Sun has amazing moveset potential. Shulk has amazing moveset potential. Before inclusion, Samus, Ness, Mario, Link, Pikachu, Megaman, Marth, Diddy Kong, Metaknight, and DK had massive moveset potential. Before inclusion, Yoshi, ZSS, Zelda, Peach, and Fox had decent moveset potential. Waluigi, Bowser Jr, and Krystal all have solid moveset potential (as "Borderline" characters.) These characters all have unique traits that can translate, directly, kind-of-indirectly, or without-the-need-of-translation, into solid and unique fighting moves. What does Toad have?

For future reference for Toad supporters, "if you researched it you'd find it wrong," or "detractors are sorely mistaken" aren't exactly arguments. You'll find I can be pretty reasonable when confronted with reasonable info, but I'm not seeing any of that with Toad.

1. I would say that in a way, it is unique to toad seeing as it's his kart but more importantly, it's unique to Smash. There isn't a single person from the Mario franchise that represents the Mario Kart games or has a move similar to that barring Wario yet his is taken from the WarioWare games. Not only that but Toad is practically known for his staple role in the spin-off games.
2. Again, Sakurai already used spores in an attack manner. This already shows that he's able to come up with creative ways to use them even if that's not how they act in their game. I see no problem with using something related to Toad in a different manner than how it was used in the games. It he can make it work, all it does is show creativity and allows him to keep that aspect of his character with him without leaving it off because it was deemed useless.
3. & 4. Looking at what you said, there aren't too many characters in smash currently who take a bunch of their moves directly from things that they alone do in their games. Let's take Diddy Kong for example. He has his cartwheel, his peanut gun and that about it when you look at things that he has himself. All his other specials are either generic or used by other DK characters in the games as well. In fact, in almost every game where there is more than 1 protagonist, there is something shared between them. This is especially evident in the Mario series. Yes, while having character specific moves is cool and shows history, not everyone has that luxury and quite honestly, it's not necessary as characters who have gotten in already lack what you want. Excluding specials a good 90% of the cast have little to no recognizable moves from outside of Smash.

 

[EddyBearr]

1. I would say that in a way, it is unique to toad seeing as it's his kart but more importantly, it's unique to Smash. There isn't a single person from the Mario franchise that represents the Mario Kart games or has a move similar to that barring Wario yet his is taken from the WarioWare games. Not only that but Toad is practically known for his staple role in the spin-off games.
2. Again, Sakurai already used spores in an attack manner. This already shows that he's able to come up with creative ways to use them even if that's not how they act in their game. I see no problem with using something related to Toad in a different manner than how it was used in the games. It he can make it work, all it does is show creativity and allows him to keep that aspect of his character with him without leaving it off because it was deemed useless.
3. & 4. Looking at what you said, there aren't too many characters in smash currently who take a bunch of their moves directly from things that they alone do in their games. Let's take Diddy Kong for example. He has his cartwheel, his peanut gun and that about it when you look at things that he has himself. All his other specials are either generic or used by other DK characters in the games as well. In fact, in almost every game where there is more than 1 protagonist, there is something shared between them. This is especially evident in the Mario series. Yes, while having character specific moves is cool and shows history, not everyone has that luxury and quite honestly, it's not necessary as characters who have gotten in already lack what you want. Excluding specials a good 90% of the cast have little to no recognizable moves from outside of Smash.

1. This applies just as well to Koopa, but Koopa has more "combat experience." That's why I don't think it's a very strong argument for Toad. It's not personal to him.
2. Toad's spores damage people who attack him (When peach uses him as a defense,) Correct? That's more combat experience than I thought off to begin with. Still, this doesn't add anything for Toad having much control over spores. While there isn't really a "problem" with using something related to a character different than how it was used in games, when we have characters like King Boo, Koopa, Bowser Jr, Waluigi, or any other characters from other franchises than can translate more directly into Smash, then it's certainly more fitting.
3&4
Diddy Kong: Bananas, Peanuts, Barrels, jab combo, dash attack, all of this comes DK64. His jumping style with his side special is also very similar to how he did long jumps, then landing on trees, in DK64. Diddy has a very personal moveset, like basically every other combo. His jab combo's ending (multi-hit) one isn't from DK64, but he used his tail a ton in DK64. Above this, I only Diddy from DK64, so it's quite possible that more moves come from other games.

Excluding specials, I'd say the majority of the cast has at least 5 other moves or gimmicks that have to do with it in their games, but certainly not all. Gimmicks includes if they have a unique jump, as per Yoshi, Samus, or Peach. 90% of the cast, though I know it's a hyperbole, means that only 3-4 characters actually have 5 (I think 5 is a fair cut off, that's about 1/4 of all moves/gimmicks,)

Personally, I don't want to go through it all, but..

Yes for Mario, Peach (Fsmash earned 3 on its own,) DK, Diddy, Link, Ness, Lucas, Pikachu, all the other Pokemon, FE characters, Kirby, Sonic, Snake, G&W, and probably a few more if we dig for them. That's 19/39 as it stands. If you count Luigi, as extrapolation from Mario since they are basically the same thing conceptaully and in other games, that's more than half.

Above all that, if we stop ignoring specials, most specials are all very personal, but Toad lacks much in that regard.

 

[Arcadenik]

Above all that, if we stop ignoring specials, most specials are all very personal, but Toad lacks much in that regard.

The fireballs are not personal only to Mario and Luigi... Peach and Toad can throw fireballs in Super Mario 3D World.

The vegetables are not personal only to Peach... Mario, Luigi, and Toad can pull out vegetables and throw them in Super Mario Bros. 2.

The cape is not personal only to Mario... Luigi can use the cape in Super Mario World.

The ground pound is not personal only to Yoshi... Bowser can do that in Super Mario Bros. 3... Mario can do that in Super Mario 64... Luigi and Toad can do that in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

It goes on and on... so why can't Toad use specials that Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and Yoshi are NOT going to use in Smash?

Toad could use various mushrooms for his specials... Poison Mushroom from Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels... Propeller Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros. Wii... Golden Mushroom from Mario Kart: Double Dash!!... Mega Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros. DS...

 

[EddyBearr]

The fireballs are not personal only to Mario and Luigi... Peach and Toad can throw fireballs in Super Mario 3D World.

The decision was made in 1999.

The vegetables are not personal only to Peach... Mario, Luigi, and Toad can pull out vegetables and throw them in Super Mario Bros. 2.

Truth.

The cape is not personal only to Mario... Luigi can use the cape in Super Mario World.

Truth, but it came at a time when they were trying to declone Luigi.

The ground pound is not personal only to Yoshi... Bowser can do that in Super Mario Bros. 3... Mario can do that in Super Mario 64... Luigi and Toad can do that in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

Truth. Mario and Luigi's movesets were full, Bowser and Yoshi each use it, but the Ground Bound, considering Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island, is "super iconic" for Yoshi.

It goes on and on... so why can't Toad use specials that Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and Yoshi are NOT going to use in Smash?

It's not that he couldn't, but Toad truly lacks personal things. He has some shared things, but he doesn't have a flutter kick, or a "mario downsmash" to call his own.

Toad could use various mushrooms for his specials... Poison Mushroom from Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels... Propeller Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros. Wii... Golden Mushroom from Mario Kart: Double Dash!!... Mega Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros. DS...

Many characters "could" do many things. If we were talking about a [?] block, then releasing mushrooms would be fantastic and personal for that character, but we're talking about Toad, and I don't really think "Because he's a mushroom" is a strong link.

It's not that toad isn't viable, it's that other characters are much more viable.

 

[SmashShadow]

1. This applies just as well to Koopa, but Koopa has more "combat experience." That's why I don't think it's a very strong argument for Toad. It's not personal to him.
2. Toad's spores damage people who attack him (When peach uses him as a defense,) Correct? That's more combat experience than I thought off to begin with. Still, this doesn't add anything for Toad having much control over spores. While there isn't really a "problem" with using something related to a character different than how it was used in games, when we have characters like King Boo, Koopa, Bowser Jr, Waluigi, or any other characters from other franchises than can translate more directly into Smash, then it's certainly more fitting.
3&4
Diddy Kong: Bananas, Peanuts, Barrels, jab combo, dash attack, all of this comes DK64. His jumping style with his side special is also very similar to how he did long jumps, then landing on trees, in DK64. Diddy has a very personal moveset, like basically every other combo. His jab combo's ending (multi-hit) one isn't from DK64, but he used his tail a ton in DK64. Above this, I only Diddy from DK64, so it's quite possible that more moves come from other games.

Excluding specials, I'd say the majority of the cast has at least 5 other moves or gimmicks that have to do with it in their games, but certainly not all. Gimmicks includes if they have a unique jump, as per Yoshi, Samus, or Peach. 90% of the cast, though I know it's a hyperbole, means that only 3-4 characters actually have 5 (I think 5 is a fair cut off, that's about 1/4 of all moves/gimmicks,)

Personally, I don't want to go through it all, but..

Yes for Mario, Peach (Fsmash earned 3 on its own,) DK, Diddy, Link, Ness, Lucas, Pikachu, all the other Pokemon, FE characters, Kirby, Sonic, Snake, G&W, and probably a few more if we dig for them. That's 19/39 as it stands. If you count Luigi, as extrapolation from Mario since they are basically the same thing conceptaully and in other games, that's more than half.

Above all that, if we stop ignoring specials, most specials are all very personal, but Toad lacks much in that regard.

1. I see nothing wrong with Koopas as well seeing as they have played several different roles in the past 3 decades so it's to be expected that they can do a lot. The fact that there is no 1 defining Koopa Troopa or 1 that plays a huge role in the series is the reason why I don't support him.
2. The difference between Toad and those other characters (barring Junior) is that he's obviously more important than them. He's no doubt, been around longer and showed up more.
3. Diddy Kong's bananas are nothing unique to him. You could give that same move to the entire DK cast as the whole game revolves around bananas. While he does use the rocket barrel more often, I've seen Dixie, Donkey, and even K.Rool use it before. I'll admit, I actually hadn't thought of the monkey flip being inspired by that but as to whether it actual was, well that's a different matter. And it's not as if Toad can't draw things like his jump, taunts, certain animations and speed from games he's been in either. If you're counting things like that into the five well then yeah, most characters will have at least 5. I was talking specifically about combat moves that they use from their games.

I disagree with a few on that list though. Namely the FE characters and if you want to get technical you can say Lucas and Ness because so many of their moves weren't theirs. As to Marth and Ike, most of their moves were generic sword slashes or moves based off other people.

 

[EddyBearr]

1. I see nothing wrong with Koopas as well seeing as they have played several different roles in the past 3 decades so it's to be expected that they can do a lot. The fact that there is no 1 defining Koopa Troopa or 1 that plays a huge role in the series is the reason why I don't support him.
2. The difference between Toad and those other characters (barring Junior) is that he's obviously more important than them. He's no doubt, been around longer and showed up more.
3. Diddy Kong's bananas are nothing unique to him. You could give that same move to the entire DK cast as the whole game revolves around bananas. While he does use the rocket barrel more often, I've seen Dixie, Donkey, and even K.Rool use it before. I'll admit, I actually hadn't thought of the monkey flip being inspired by that but as to whether it actual was, well that's a different matter. And it's not as if Toad can't draw things like his jump, taunts, certain animations and speed from games he's been in either. If you're counting things like that into the five well then yeah, most characters will have at least 5. I was talking specifically about combat moves that they use from their games.

I disagree with a few on that list though. Namely the FE characters and if you want to get technical you can say Lucas and Ness because so many of their moves weren't theirs. As to Marth and Ike, most of their moves were generic sword slashes or moves based off other people.

1. Same problem with Toad, actually. The only truly unique toad is Toadsworth.
2. Definitely more important, I agree. I actually don't think Waluigi is too far behind in importance, though.
3. When I count things into the five, I mean truly extraordinary things. Like why, when he's so bulky, is Captain falcon so fast? Why, when samus double jumps, does she tighten up into a ball? Why yoshi's double jump? Perhaps even Mario & wall jumping. Some of those smaller ones ,like Samus' double jump, should be a half point if considered.

Personally, with "moves based on other people," as long as the people are pretty much the same thing, I'm fine with it. Mother moves are unique to mother characters, and FE moves are inherent to FE characters. The big dichotomy I'd see here is that with Mother and FE characters, they've got an inherent potential to do something that other franchises can't. With toad, unfortunately, his "inherent potential" is extraordinarily basic: he can pick up and use items.

 

[Berserker.]

I'll just list what Toad can do. All this may not be personal to him only:

• Spore gas - It's canon from Mario Sports Mix and Smash bros. It's a sport game type like Mario Golf and Mario Tennis created by the same people who created Super Mario RPG (Personal to Toad)
• Mushroom summoning - Same as above. Was used to stun foes, guard and attack (Personal to Toad)
• Wall running - Wario's Woods. No, this game cannot be considered that obscure. It was replayable years after its release through Animal Crossing. Surprisingly of all games that can be played, it was this game so that is something (Personal to Toad)
• Out of place superhuman strength - Good reference for standard attacks and even specials. Sakurai stated this by the way (Personal to Toad, no man, not including Bowser in this one since it's tagged as "Out-of-place")
• Wall jump - Super mario 3D World or Mario galaxy (Not personal)
• Super charged jump - Mario Bros 2. Peach took the Turnip pulling so.... you get where I'm going. (Not personal)
• Items - Yep (Not personal)

Honestly, I think Toad's specials are covered and fine. Ones I listed up there probably works anyway. You can use the spore blow as a special, or the mushroom summons, the super jump can be a recovery (Like the Mario jump punch without the punching). I don't know. Making movesets is all about imagination and represen---- ...... I'm gonna get flamed if I say that a moveset represents a character. Lol. The turnip pull wasn't really personal to Peach, truth be told. It's not personal to her. Sakurai can go ahead and reference or create specials that somehow are references to the following up there. He can also give Toad low jumping height for the sake of being updated or nostalgic and make him run very fast. This is referencing to Super Mario 3D World.

All in all and restated, it's not gonna be hard to fill up 4 special moves. Toad has abilities that outnumber that. Spores, mushrooms, OP strength, maybe an item or made up ability. I can't say how it will go but I think Toad will have at least a made up move like all Mario characters (Excluding Mario and Yoshi and Wario series). But if your opinion remains uncharged then alright, just listing and going off

Edit : What's wrong with using your head as an attack D: ?

Didn't Mario, Luigi and Yoshi do that? Why not Toad? He has a big head

Edit 2 : Just saying but Peach's f-smash gimmick isn't personal to her. It's her glide. So... More of a reason to use moves that are not personal to a character but then again, that is a standard attack and not a special attack. But then, we have the forward special..... Fun fact and pretty weird but the forward special of Luigi, Peach and Bowser are made up. If we ignore koopa claw and count flying slam, none of them are personal to the characters.

 

[EddyBearr]

Peach's F-Smash Tennis racket and golf club are semi-personal, as she's been seen doing them, but her Frying Pan is 100% her, from SM-RPG.

All I can say to Toad fans is good luck. As many characters as possible, including toad, would be great. I just tend to think that there's only so many roster slots, and that other characters would fill them first.

 

[Berserker.]

Peach's F-Smash Tennis racket and golf club are semi-personal, as she's been seen doing them, but her Frying Pan is 100% her, from SM-RPG.

Toad has also been karting ever since. Just saiyan.

Forgot about the Frying pan though.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I missed a lot huh?

But yes; the majority of Peach's moves seem to be equally pulled out her ass:

Toad shield is unique to...well to Toad, surely? He's the counter.
Vegetable special isn't unique to her. In fact she was the slowest and weakest of SMB2's playable characters.
Peach Bomber is based on the fact Peach has a butt. Rock on girl.
Her up and B though IS unique. I'll give ya that.
Hell, even her final smash seems to be not based on anything other than her name.
Her F-smash frying pan was unique as you stated, but her racket and golf club can pretty much be assigned to any Mario character, including Toad, Bowser Jr or Waluigi.

The floating, parasol and frying pan are truly unique to the princess. That's three things to play with. That isn't a lot. Melee; fair enough they had little to work with, but Brawl could have drawn some more uniqueness from Super Princess Peach which had been out during dev time.

I think everyone else has covered everything, but this was bothering me:

1. This applies just as well to Koopa, but Koopa has more "combat experience." That's why I don't think it's a very strong argument for Toad. It's not personal to him.

Koopa has more combat experience than Toad? Do you truly believe that?

If you want to, then I guess that's fine, but I find it an odd arguement since Toad's been playable. Quite a few times now. Koopa's combat experience revolves around walking slowly back and forth. Maybe Toad only does what Mario and Luigi can do in those games, but I'd put that combat experience above the slow walk back and forth.

 

[EddyBearr]

Koopa has more combat experience than Toad? Do you truly believe that?

If you want to, then I guess that's fine, but I find it an odd arguement since Toad's been playable. Quite a few times now. Koopa's combat experience revolves around walking slowly back and forth. Maybe Toad only does what Mario and Luigi can do in those games, but I'd put that combat experience above the slow walk back and forth.

Yeah, I'd say so. Koopa can also become a Koopa Troopa, have homeage to dry bones, has plenty of experience as 'shells," can use different things based on shell colors, etc.

As for Peach, up B, floating, down B might be a half point. Jab combo is from SM-RPG, forward smashes (both golf club and tennis racket are a bit more unique, but not too powerful.

I do think at this point I was being too harsh on Toad, though.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Yeah, I'd say so. Koopa can also become a Koopa Troopa, have homeage to dry bones, has plenty of experience as 'shells," can use different things based on shell colors, etc.

As for Peach, up B, floating, down B might be a half point. Jab combo is from SM-RPG, forward smashes (both golf club and tennis racket are a bit more unique, but not too powerful.

I do think at this point I was being too harsh on Toad, though.

But then surely if Koopa Troopa represents shells, Toad represents mushrooms? Both are important staples, and if I'm totally honest I don't hugely dislike that Koopa Troopa idea(it might be fun to see this implemented in a Mario game).

Peach's Jab combo. I knew that couldn't be everything. Thanks.

Maybe the "Peach's moveset is subject to change" is referring to Toad, or maybe it means we may see some Super Princess Peach style moves(Anger vibe would be a great move). Either way, I'm interested to see how this turns out.

 

[EddyBearr]

It's not the same, because while we have strong basis to presume that the shells, red, blue, yellow, green, rainbow, etc. always come from Koopas, we have no reason to believe the mushroom power ups we find are remnants of toads.


Other than that, I don't think we're finding too much different.

 

[Arcadenik]

This is an incomplete moveset for Toad... but it should show that there are some stuff that are "personal" to Toad.

Spoiler

Up+A
Toad pulls out a Coin out of the ground... the Coin spins and hits the opponent... based on pulling out coins in Super Mario Bros. 2.

Running+A
Toad sprinkles spores around while running and swinging his arms around... scoring multiple hits in one go... based on Toad's cowardly nature in many Mario games and his ability to emit spores in Melee/Brawl

Smash Forward+A
Toad swings his tennis racket... bubbles appear from his tennis racket... based on Toad's servings and power shots in Mario Tennis 64.

Smash Up+A
Toad squats and starts glowing... then he jumps and headbutts the opponent... based on the Power Squat Jump from Super Mario Bros. 2.

Smash Down+A
Toad makes two mushrooms grow in front and behind of him... the mushrooms hit the opponent kinda like the Dr. Wright Assist Trophy does with buildings... based on Toad's special ability in Mario Sports Mix.

Aerial A
Toad flaps his arms around wildly... scoring multiple hits in one go... based on Toad's flutter jump from the Toad Jump mini-game in Super Princess Peach.

B - Poison Mushroom
Toad does the same thing with the Poison Mushroom what Peach does with Toad in Melee/Brawl... when the opponent hits the mushroom, it explodes into spores that causes the opponent to shrink (regardless of percentages) and get knocked off the stage (at high percentages)... why Poison Mushroom? It was CPU-controlled Toad's special item in the original Super Mario Kart.

Side+B - Golden Mushroom
Toad uses the mushroom and starts glowing golden... he starts to charge in one place when you hold down the B button... and he starts running really fast in one direction when you let go of the B button... and Toad tackles the opponent... this can be used as a horizontal recovery much like Ike's Quick Draw special move... this is based on how kart drivers would speed up and bump off other racers when using mushrooms in the Mario Kart games... why Golden Mushroom? It was Toad's special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

Up+B - Propeller Mushroom
Toad uses the mushroom and starts wearing the propeller hat... he starts to propel to the air, scoring multiple hits on the way up... once he reaches the peak, he starts floating back down... but you can speed up the descent by pressing either Down+A or Down+B... Down+A will have Toad drilling down to the ground, scoring multiple hits on the way down just like in New Super Mario Bros. Wii... Down+B will have Toad drilling down to the ground but he will grab the opponent if he lands on the opponent like in Super Mario Bros. 2... why Propeller Mushroom? Well, how else would Toad recover? It is not like Mario and Luigi are going to use it in SSB4 anyway.

Down+B - Pick Up
Toad jumps and does a ground pound... however if Toad lands on the opponent, he will pick up the opponent like in Super Mario Bros. 2... this can be used to grab opponents in the air... opponents have a harder time breaking free at higher percentages... I think this special move might influence Toad's playstyle, turning Toad into a grappler type fighter... grab opponents and then throw them off the stage or throw them at the stage hazards or throw them at other opponents who are trying to recover... why Pick Up? It plays well with Toad's rumored superhuman strength as mentioned in Toad's Brawl trophy.

Final Smash - Wanda's Bombs
Toad summons his old friend, Wanda the fairy from Wario's Woods, to help him... Wanda summons colorful bombs to rain all over the stage... turning the stage into something similar to Sudden Death Match in Hyrule Temple... yes, I basically turned this into this for Toad's Final Smash...

 

[EddyBearr]

A lot of those are pushing it, tbh. It's nothing like copying the exact attack for Mario's Down-Smash. A few are personal.

Another problem is, a lot of it isn't very iconic. Isaac's Djinn would be Iconic, Pikachu's electrical attacks are iconic, Kirby's special.. Toad really has his work cut out for him.

 

[Arcadenik]

A lot of those are pushing it, tbh. It's nothing like copying the exact attack for Mario's Down-Smash. A few are personal.

Another problem is, a lot of it isn't very iconic. Isaac's Djinn would be Iconic, Pikachu's electrical attacks are iconic, Kirby's special.. Toad really has his work cut out for him.

Specify which parts are not iconic and why?

 

[Berserker.]

This is an incomplete moveset for Toad... but it should show that there are some stuff that are "personal" to Toad.

Spoiler

Up+A
Toad pulls out a Coin out of the ground... the Coin spins and hits the opponent... based on pulling out coins in Super Mario Bros. 2.

Running+A
Toad sprinkles spores around while running and swinging his arms around... scoring multiple hits in one go... based on Toad's cowardly nature in many Mario games and his ability to emit spores in Melee/Brawl

Smash Forward+A
Toad swings his tennis racket... bubbles appear from his tennis racket... based on Toad's servings and power shots in Mario Tennis 64.

Smash Up+A
Toad squats and starts glowing... then he jumps and headbutts the opponent... based on the Power Squat Jump from Super Mario Bros. 2.

Smash Down+A
Toad makes two mushrooms grow in front and behind of him... the mushrooms hit the opponent kinda like the Dr. Wright Assist Trophy does with buildings... based on Toad's special ability in Mario Sports Mix.

Aerial A
Toad flaps his arms around wildly... scoring multiple hits in one go... based on Toad's flutter jump from the Toad Jump mini-game in Super Princess Peach.

B - Poison Mushroom
Toad does the same thing with the Poison Mushroom what Peach does with Toad in Melee/Brawl... when the opponent hits the mushroom, it explodes into spores that causes the opponent to shrink (regardless of percentages) and get knocked off the stage (at high percentages)... why Poison Mushroom? It was CPU-controlled Toad's special item in the original Super Mario Kart.

Side+B - Golden Mushroom
Toad uses the mushroom and starts glowing golden... he starts to charge in one place when you hold down the B button... and he starts running really fast in one direction when you let go of the B button... and Toad tackles the opponent... this can be used as a horizontal recovery much like Ike's Quick Draw special move... this is based on how kart drivers would speed up and bump off other racers when using mushrooms in the Mario Kart games... why Golden Mushroom? It was Toad's special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

Up+B - Propeller Mushroom
Toad uses the mushroom and starts wearing the propeller hat... he starts to propel to the air, scoring multiple hits on the way up... once he reaches the peak, he starts floating back down... but you can speed up the descent by pressing either Down+A or Down+B... Down+A will have Toad drilling down to the ground, scoring multiple hits on the way down just like in New Super Mario Bros. Wii... Down+B will have Toad drilling down to the ground but he will grab the opponent if he lands on the opponent like in Super Mario Bros. 2... why Propeller Mushroom? Well, how else would Toad recover? It is not like Mario and Luigi are going to use it in SSB4 anyway.

Down+B - Pick Up
Toad jumps and does a ground pound... however if Toad lands on the opponent, he will pick up the opponent like in Super Mario Bros. 2... this can be used to grab opponents in the air... opponents have a harder time breaking free at higher percentages... I think this special move might influence Toad's playstyle, turning Toad into a grappler type fighter... grab opponents and then throw them off the stage or throw them at the stage hazards or throw them at other opponents who are trying to recover... why Pick Up? It plays well with Toad's rumored superhuman strength as mentioned in Toad's Brawl trophy.

Final Smash - Wanda's Bombs
Toad summons his old friend, Wanda the fairy from Wario's Woods, to help him... Wanda summons colorful bombs to rain all over the stage... turning the stage into something similar to Sudden Death Match in Hyrule Temple... yes, I basically turned this into this for Toad's Final Smash...

Final smash is okay
Forward smash is eh
There are better options for the running A

The standards do not have to be personal. Just a few or maybe none.

It's only the specials. The specials are fine

What's not iconic:
1) Forward smash (I'm kinda against a tennis racket)
2) Aerial A (Sorta)

And that's it. Then again, the standards do not have to be iconic. Not all, at least.

 

[EddyBearr]

Specify which parts are not iconic?

Pretty much all of it. Iconic, as in, if you went to..say.. a Nintendo convention, and ask the people there, "What does (character) do?"

Kirby's iconic abilities are sucking characters up to steal moves, and getting a lot of jumps. These are undeniably the biggest things about Kirby. Anyone who's played a kirby game, let alone multiple, would know this.

For perspective, Mario using his down-smash is personal, but not iconic.

Toad has -some- kinda-personal moves, but nothing iconic.

 

[Arcadenik]

Pretty much all of it. Iconic, as in, if you went to..say.. a Nintendo convention, and ask the people there, "What does (character) do?"

Kirby's iconic abilities are sucking characters up to steal moves, and getting a lot of jumps. These are undeniably the biggest things about Kirby. Anyone who's played a kirby game, let alone multiple, would know this.

For perspective, Mario using his down-smash is personal, but not iconic.

Toad has -some- personal moves, but nothing iconic.

"Pretty much all of it" is too vague... that is why I asked you to be specific.

What does Toad do? He picks up enemies and throw them (SMB2 and Wario's Woods) and runs really fast (SMB2 and SM3DW) and uses spores/mushrooms as weapons (Melee/Brawl and various Mario spin-off games).

 

[EddyBearr]

"Pretty much all of it" is too vague... that is why I asked you to be specific.

What does Toad do? He picks up enemies and throw them (SMB2 and Wario's Woods) and runs really fast (SMB2 and SM3DW) and uses spores/mushrooms as weapons (Melee/Brawl and various Mario spin-off games).

You're telling me that "picking up and throwing enemies, running fast, using spores/mushrooms as weapons" is going to be a common response from general Nintendo fans? On Par with, "Link uses a sword + some choice items to kill enemies & solve puzzles," "Kirby jumps a lot and eats enemies for their moves," or "Pikachu zaps opponents with electricity"?

 

[Arcadenik]

You're telling me that "picking up and throwing enemies, running fast, using spores/mushrooms as weapons" is going to be a common response from general Nintendo fans? On Par with, "Link uses a sword + some choice items to kill enemies & solve puzzles," "Kirby jumps a lot and eats enemies for their moves," or "Pikachu zaps opponents with electricity"?

Yes, it eventually will be a common response after they see a playable Toad in Smash someday... maybe in SSB4... maybe not in SSB4... but he will be in Smash eventually.

 

[Berserker.]

Pretty much all of it.

Nope

The problem was, the mushroom and spore attack should have been placed in the specials.

Super jump should have been an up special instead or even a mushroom attack again (He uses a mushroom to bounces upward like Sonic). Then again, Peach's turnip was not personal so.... this works. So was her ass. It wasn't personal and iconic.

I guess poison mushroom works. It appears rarely in any Mario games. Only game it appeared in was SMK, SM3DL, SMLostLevels, MKGP, DK, SMRPG, MP3 and 5, LM, Paper Mario TYD and hoops on 3-on-3. How many Mario games are there? A lot right? And we only listed 11 games out of the *too lazy to count* games so... yeah. Considering that Toad (And Peach but she doesn't have the move in her moveset so Toad only) uses this, I guess it works. I'm not all for it but.... Eh. It works. Like I said. (I'm for a spore spit neutral special)

Down special is good. He's known for being the strongest (Lifter and carrier) anyway out of the four so he definitely should have a grab special. No problem with that.

Forward special is good considering Sakurai's obsession with generic charging forward type forward specials like the gyroid charge, skull bash, peach bomber, luigi missile (Where the **** did those two come from though). Hell, it might be called... MUSHROOM BULLET for some reason. Freaking Sakurai

Like I said, the standard attacks do not have to be iconic but maybe some can. Examples of characters with no iconic standard what so ever is (Or negligible iconicness -- I know, it's not a word)....... Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon (They became iconic because of Smash bros but regardless, nothing from the series) and wait.... Oh right, Captain Falcon.... Where did his moves (I mean standards, not specials) come from...

You're telling me that "picking up and throwing enemies, running fast, using spores/mushrooms as weapons" is going to be a common response from general Nintendo fans? On Par with, "Link uses a sword + some choice items to kill enemies & solve puzzles," "Kirby jumps a lot and eats enemies for their moves," or "Pikachu zaps opponents with electricity"?

...............

Yeah. Pretty much.

Just like how Zelda uses din's fire, nayru's love, had sprinkly thunder powers out of no where, absolutely no light-magic related specials (As in like *Light arrow* light) and farore's wind even when Link actually uses ALL THAT

Like how ROB does random laser beam, wrench attacks even though I, a human, can crush him by throwing him to a dump (Which I didn't do of course)

Like how 95% of Ice climbers' moves are variations of hammer attacks which they have never done to begin with

Like how Peach could actually kick ass by using her ass, and some random sports equipment which wasn't even personal to her to begin with

Yep.

Oh right and I explained my opinion on how to fill Toad's moveset with this:

I'll just list what Toad can do. All this may not be personal to him only:​

• Spore gas - It's canon from Mario Sports Mix and Smash bros. It's a sport game type like Mario Golf and Mario Tennis created by the same people who created Super Mario RPG (Personal to Toad)
• Mushroom summoning - Same as above. Was used to stun foes, guard and attack (Personal to Toad)
• Wall running - Wario's Woods. No, this game cannot be considered that obscure. It was replayable years after its release through Animal Crossing. Surprisingly of all games that can be played, it was this game so that is something (Personal to Toad)
• Out of place superhuman strength - Good reference for standard attacks and even specials. Sakurai stated this by the way (Personal to Toad, no man, not including Bowser in this one since it's tagged as "Out-of-place")
• Wall jump - Super mario 3D World or Mario galaxy (Not personal)
• Super charged jump - Mario Bros 2. Peach took the Turnip pulling so.... you get where I'm going. (Not personal)
• Items - Yep (Not personal)

Honestly, I think Toad's specials are covered and fine. Ones I listed up there probably works anyway. You can use the spore blow as a special, or the mushroom summons, the super jump can be a recovery (Like the Mario jump punch without the punching). I don't know. Making movesets is all about imagination and represen---- ...... I'm gonna get flamed if I say that a moveset represents a character. Lol. The turnip pull wasn't really personal to Peach, truth be told. It's not personal to her. Sakurai can go ahead and reference or create specials that somehow are references to the following up there. He can also give Toad low jumping height for the sake of being updated or nostalgic and make him run very fast. This is referencing to Super Mario 3D World.​

​

All in all and restated, it's not gonna be hard to fill up 4 special moves. Toad has abilities that outnumber that. Spores, mushrooms, OP strength, maybe an item or made up ability. I can't say how it will go but I think Toad will have at least a made up move like all Mario characters (Excluding Mario and Yoshi and Wario series). But if your opinion remains uncharged then alright, just listing and going off​

​

Edit : What's wrong with using your head as an attack D: ?​

​

Didn't Mario, Luigi and Yoshi do that? Why not Toad? He has a big head ​

​

Edit 2 : Just saying but Peach's f-smash gimmick isn't personal to her. It's her glide. So... More of a reason to use moves that are not personal to a character but then again, that is a standard attack and not a special attack. But then, we have the forward special..... Fun fact and pretty weird but the forward special of Luigi, Peach and Bowser are made up. If we ignore koopa claw and count flying slam, none of them are personal to the characters.​

As much as how I hide it, I'm still baffled on how people could actually judge moveset potential when this was utterly debunked by several characters who've appeared already.

 

[EddyBearr]

Nope

The problem was, the mushroom and spore attack should have been placed in the specials.

Super jump should have been an up special instead or even a mushroom attack again (He uses a mushroom to bounces upward like Sonic). Then again, Peach's turnip was not personal so.... this works. So was her ***. It wasn't personal and iconic.

I guess poison mushroom works. It appears rarely in any Mario games. Only game it appeared in was SMK, SM3DL, SMLostLevels, MKGP, DK, SMRPG, MP3 and 5, LM, Paper Mario TYD and hoops on 3-on-3. How many Mario games are there? A lot right? And we only listed 11 games out of the *too lazy to count* games so... yeah. Considering that Toad (And Peach but she doesn't have the move in her moveset so Toad only) uses this, I guess it works. I'm not all for it but.... Eh. It works. Like I said. (I'm for a spore spit neutral special)

Down special is good. He's known for being the strongest (Lifter and carrier) anyway out of the four so he definitely should have a grab special. No problem with that.

Forward special is good considering Sakurai's obsession with generic charging forward type forward specials like the gyroid charge, skull bash, peach bomber, luigi missile (Where the **** did those two come from though). Hell, it might be called... MUSHROOM BULLET for some reason. Freaking Sakurai

Like I said, the standard attacks do not have to be iconic but maybe some can. Examples of characters with no iconic standard what so ever is (Or negligible iconicness -- I know, it's not a word)....... Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon (They became iconic because of Smash bros but regardless, nothing from the series) and wait.... Oh right, Captain Falcon.... Where did his moves (I mean standards, not specials) come from...

...............

Yeah. Pretty much.

Just like how Zelda uses din's fire, nayru's love, had sprinkly thunder powers out of no where, absolutely no light-magic related specials (As in like *Light arrow* light) and farore's wind even when Link actually uses ALL THAT

Like how ROB does random laser beam, wrench attacks even though I, a human, can crush him by throwing him to a dump (Which I didn't do of course)

Like how 95% of Ice climbers' moves are variations of hammer attacks which they have never done to begin with

Like how Peach could actually kick *** by using her ***, and some random sports equipment which wasn't even personal to her to begin with

Yep.

Basic problems with your post:

-Asking for a Smash Bros. without Peach is crazy, simply put. She is the top 3 in the #1 Nintendo game.
-Asking for Smash Bros without Luigi is crazy.
-Asking for a Smash Bros. without Zelda is almost as bad. For perspective, though, OOT was fresh in our minds in 64 & brawl. We knew Zelda transformed into Sheik, and used some magic.

-Skull Bash works with Pikachu, and it works just like Skull Bash in Pokemon (charge up, then attack.)

I hold R.O.B.s impersonal/non-iconic moveset against him. He got in for historical reasons, like G&W.

Ice Climbers, no one knew about before Smash. Sakurai felt it was worthwhile to have a retro throwback.

Is Toad Peach/Zelda/Luigi?
Is Toad the namesake for a huge franchise?
Is Toad a "retro throwback" or "historical character?"

Certain things that obviously matter (simply looking at characters moveset shows this obviously matters, but Sakurai has also explicitly said he wants Characters to, if he can, do what they did in their games in Smash) can be over-rided if other things that also matter have a bigger impact.
Peach lacked personal things, but Peach was Peach. Peach is "Mrs. Nintendo." Having Smash without Peach is just a gigantic no, so the lack of truly iconic moves gets passed-by.

As much as how I hide it, I'm still baffled on how people could actually judge moveset potential when this was utterly debunked by several characters who've appeared already.

"Utterly debunked"? So something that obviously requires more work (making up moves that work rather than copying previously existing moves,) and something that obviously shows up whenever possible, "has been obviously debunked?" Exceptions to an expectation do not eliminate an expectation. This is like saying that "A person can not be held back (in Elementary school) if they don't fail their classes." Folks have been held back before if they felt they "weren't developed enough" for the next grade. Other factors can overpower factors, but that doesn't make them stop being factors.
Or I guess we can say "originating in a game," "being popular/wanted," and "being Nintendo characters" are all non-factors because of R.O.B., 3rd party characters, and retro throwbacks, right? Or do factors still matter even if exceptions exist? Take your pick, but it should be obvious that there's only one logical conclusion.

 

[Arcadenik]

Everywhere I read... Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

 

[EddyBearr]

Everywhere I read... Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

I know, right?

"Toad was fast in this game that nobody has heard of from 20 years ago!" Totally translates into "who Toad is." Totally is what people think of when they think of Toad.
"Moveset potential doesn't matter at all! Exceptions have existed, therefore it doesn't matter at all!" Again trying to apologize for Toad, unless you're trying to be logical.
"Toad would be known for it if it happened!" Pure definition of excused. No duh he'd be known for it if it happened, but that's not the case now, and not an argument.

 

[Berserker.]

Basic problems with your post:

​

​

-Asking for a Smash Bros. without Peach is crazy, simply put. She is the top 3 in the #1 Nintendo game.​

-Asking for Smash Bros without Luigi is crazy.​

-Asking for a Smash Bros. without Zelda is almost as bad. For perspective, though, OOT was fresh in our minds in 64 & brawl. We knew Zelda transformed into Sheik, and used some magic.​

​

-Skull Bash works with Pikachu, and it works just like Skull Bash in Pokemon (charge up, then attack.)​

​

I hold R.O.B.s impersonal/non-iconic moveset against him. He got in for historical reasons, like G&W.​

​

Ice Climbers, no one knew about before Smash. Sakurai felt it was worthwhile to have a retro throwback.​

​

Is Toad Peach/Zelda/Luigi?​

Is Toad the namesake for a huge franchise?​

Is Toad a "retro throwback" or "historical character?"​

​

Certain things that obviously matter (simply looking at characters moveset shows this obviously matters, but Sakurai has also explicitly said he wants Characters to, if he can, do what they did in their games in Smash) can be over-rided if other things that also matter have a bigger impact.​

Peach lacked personal things, but Peach was Peach. Peach is "Mrs. Nintendo." Having Smash without Peach is just a gigantic no, so the lack of truly iconic moves gets passed-by.​

​

Peach did not get in because she's Mrs. Nintendo. Hell, she was never even given the title "Mrs. Nintendo". How she got in? It's because for one, people wanted her. She was important to Mario. The end. Sakurai put her in and gave her a moveset without regard for it being personal to her. Although what made her moveset "Peach" was for one.​

1) Motions of her attacks were undeniably feminine ​

2) So was the aesthetics (Well for most of the attacks)​

3) Toad (Not really but then again, Toad is a guard)​

​

Is Toad a historical and retro throwback character? Seriously? .... What? This is one of his greatest advantages and you've overlooked it?​

​

Toad is one of the important characters of a huge franchise and is always included along with Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser. Flat out. In every Nintendo promotional art, Mario promotional art and especially in Mario's 25th anniversary.​

​

And when was Toad being Peach/Zelda/Luigi relevant here? I only showed that you're contradicting yourself if you assume that a common nintendo fan claims that Zelda uses the magical things Link use, or when Peach doesn't even fight. My bad on Luigi though. Oh and, I never said anything about being against skull bash. I only said that it shows Sakurai's love for charging/lunging specials.​

​

Regarding ROB, that's just you (and some people).​

​

And does that answer my question regarding how the Ice Climbers could do... Well you know... All of those moves?​

And Arcadenik, quit doing that.

 

[Arcadenik]

Nobody heard of Super Mario Bros. 2? Yeah, sounds legit.

 

[Berserker.]

I know, right?

"Toad was fast in this game that nobody has heard of from 20 years ago!" Totally translates into "who Toad is." Totally is what people think of when they think of Toad.
"Moveset potential doesn't matter at all! Exceptions have existed, therefore it doesn't matter at all!" Again trying to apologize for Toad, unless you're trying to be logical.
"Toad would be known for it if it happened!" Pure definition of excused. No duh he'd be known for it if it happened, but that's not the case now, and not an argument.

1) Super Mario 3D World and second, people know that game. Where did that come from? And also by following your logic, people know Peach for floating WHICH IS TRUE as shown in Smash bros. and Super Mario 3D World. Oh right, even Nintendo depicts Toad as "Fast" as seen in several descriptions of him in several of the spin-off games he's been in. Questionably, light characters aren't fast but then he was still called fast.

2) It really doesn't.

3) Yeeeah, that was a bit poor

 

[YoshiandToad]

Haha, okay we've all had a lot of fun, but if no one's heard of SMB2, then clearly Peach's entire moveset was pulled out her ass. When it wasn't being used as a means of attack, I mean.

Also you're debunking Toad from using attacks that aren't personal to him even his special attacks from spinoffs like Mario Kart and Sports Mix(which actually ARE unique to his species) whilst at the same time supporting Waluigi who logically can't have ANY moves unless you dip into those spinoffs or pull asspulls. I like Waluigi, but he's got less to work with than Toad by your arguement.

Toad IS an important Mario character, hell; he's an important Nintendo character. To pretend otherwise would be to ignore any of the games he's been playable in, ignore his popularity in Japan, ignore his world wide recognition. That's just...well; stupid.

Will Toad be playable? Hell if I know, but he has the ingredients required to be a great character.

 

[Berserker.]

I think a more updated version of "If no one's heard of SMB2" is now "If no one's heard of Super Mario 3D World", the game that will be acting as the next 3D Mario game that will usually wow fans especially with that direct trailer. We wouldn't need the "If SMB2 is known" argument since it would be only useful for the fact that Peach has something from it

 

[EddyBearr]

Yes, it eventually will be a common response after they see a playable Toad in Smash someday... maybe in SSB4... maybe not in SSB4... but he will be in Smash eventually.

Considering what I'm calling into question is Toad getting into SSB4, that's not an argument. I'm questioning Toad's ability because of a lack of moveset potential. Moveset potential that "makes Toad who he is," that people who recognize Toad would recognize, that is unique to Toad, that is a part of Toad.

Anyone who recognizes Isaac would know, "Isaac is a Venus adept who uses "earth-based" psynergy." Of course he also can use basic weaponry, and he can use djinns, but Earth-Psynergy is what makes Isaac who he is.
Anyone who recognizes Toad.. you have to really hope they paid close attention in some old SMB games or has even heard of Wario's Woods. Anyone besides that, "fights alongside Mario & luigi in NSMBWiiU" and "Races in Mario Kart" are going to be your common responses. It quite simply isn't who "Toad" is.

I'll use myself as an obvious example. I can be called a "semi-serious semi-general" Nintendo Fan. I've played Super Mario bros, Super Mario World, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Paper Mario, Paper Mario (10,000), Luigi's Mansion, some of Super Mario Galaxy (not much,) Smash bros x3, Mario kart (64, Double Dash, Wii,) some Mario Parties, looked at a few Mario comics. (For things that relate to Toad.)
To separate myself from stuff I would have never known about (EX: Wario's Woods) if I didn't take the leap of viewing this thread, which if I didn't separate myself from, would lead to a terribly skewed result, then to answer:
What does Toad do? Basically a whole lot of nothing specials. He gives me items sometimes to help me with my quest, and he joins in some of the fun, but other than that, not much. He gets buried in "icky orange goop" in Super Mario Sunshine, he hides in a toilet and needs to be comforted in Luigi's Mansion, he "tags along" in general, he gives me a few stars in SM64.

Toad is usually there, and he's present/tags along, but he doesn't do much. When he actually does do something, it's nothing all special, something anyone else could do, and indeed something that many recurring characters do (Daisy, Koopa, etc.)

Peach did not get in because she's Mrs. Nintendo. Hell, she was never even given the title "Mrs. Nintendo". It's because for one, people wanted her. She was important to Mario. The end. Nothing about her significance to the franchise. Sakurai put her in and gave her a moveset without regard for it being personal to her.

She has been the undeniable love interest of the one who has been labeled "Mr. Nintendo" for decades. It's obvious you know what I mean. And yes, she was very popular, and she's very important to Mario. Who she is in Mario, which is "THE Nintendo Franchise," is partially why she's Mrs. Nintendo, and she's so popular partially because she's "Mrs. Nintendo." The phrase "Mrs. Nintendo," I hope, is being taken as a way to quickly say everything that makes Peach so big/unique/etc.

Although what made her moveset "Peach" was for one.

1) Motions of her attacks were undeniably feminine​

2) So was the aesthetics (Well for most of the attacks)​

3) Toad (Not really but then again, Toad is a guard)​

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I know, and she is an exception to an expectation, but why this exception was made is undeniably obvious as to who she is and how much she was wanted. ​

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Is Toad a historical and retro throwback character? Seriously? .... What? This is one of his greatest advantages and you've overlooked it?

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Toad is one of the important characters of a huge franchise and is always included along with Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser. Flat out.​

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You know very clearly what I mean by a "retro throwback" or "historical" character. Mario is not a "Retro throwback" or "historical character," despite going further back than R.OB. and many "Retro" characters. There are clear similarities between R.O.B. & G&W, and Pit & ICs, similarities that only they share, that no other character in Smash has. It's an overtly clear pattern, and it explains the exception. ​

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And when was Toad being Peach/Zelda/Luigi relevant here?

You know very clearly what I mean by "is Toad P, Z, or L." I'm asking if Toad has the same gigantic requirements/overhwelming factors than P, Z, and L had which made them exceptions to the expectation.​

I only showed that you're contradicting yourself if you assume that a common nintendo fan claims that Zelda uses the magical things Link use, or when Peach doesn't even fight.

Again, exceptions to the expectation because of overwhelming factors. In the context of the year 2000 up to Zelda's announcement in Smash, many folks would also say "She hides out as Sheik," making even her having a truly iconic thing that makes her truly unique in Smash Bros.​

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And does that answer my question regarding how the Ice Climbers could do... Well you know... All of those moves?

I wouldn't be able to. Why the ICs are an exception to the rule was made overtly obvious as soon as Pit came out: "Retro throwback."​

Is Toad a "retro throwback", the word throwback very clearly showing he has been forgotten and untouched since "Retro" times?
Is Toad a "historical character" like Mr. G&W, who started Handhelds (and more-or-less Video Game Nintendo,) or R.O.B. who saved Nintendo in North America?
Taking Link and Mario as "Smash simply can not exist without them," is Toad as important to the roster for balance purposes as Peach or Zelda?

I'm gonna bold it again. Exceptions to a rule can exist, if other factors make it so, but that doesn't make the rule stop existing.

If you're going to apologize for Toad lacking an inherent/iconic/personal/unique moveset," then you better give me reason that Toad's factors that make him an exception are as huge Peach, Zelda, or IC's exceptions. Since I included, all re-iterated: What factors are there that give Toad the right to be an exception like even any Retro Revival (which has very clearly been given the right to be an exception with our previous Retro Revivals, which is very clearly a thing to thepoint of having articles written about it.)

Regarding ROB, that's just you (and some people).

At least I'm consistent. I kinda like Toad, and if I had to put his chance of being into smash on a scale of 1-10, I'd call him a 3-4. If he gets in, undeniably, how popular he is, how recognizable he is, and some of his traits like "always tagging along" would get him in. I don't think he's going to get in over some other characters in that boat (of Mario Characters,) like Bowser Jr, but that's me.

Nobody heard of Super Mario Bros. 2? Yeah, sounds legit.

1) Super Mario 3D World and second, people know that game. Where did that come from?

MFW when people take obvious hyperboles without a grain of salt. Obviously folks have heard of SMB2, but given the context that we're marketing to present day core gamers, not core gamers from 1990, it's very clear that far less people are going to have heard of SMB2 as "NSMBWiiU," or Super Mario Galaxy (1 & 2.) I hate to tell you this, but 35 year olds aren't very common in the "core gamers" of today. Yes, they know it to an extent, but they also know Toad from SM64, SMSun, Luigi's Mansion, and etc, arguably with a more lasting effect (and obviously a greater effect due to simply selling more.)

And also by following your logic, people know Peach for floating WHICH IS TRUE as shown in Smash bros. and Super Mario 3D World.

We all know Peach is an exceptions to expectations, and I've explained this above. Please explain why Toad deserves an exception to the same level as Peach deserved.

Oh right, even Nintendo depicts Toad as "Fast" as seen in several descriptions of him in several of the spin-off games he's been in. Questionably, light characters aren't fast but then he was still called fast.

Great, but I think "being fast" is only iconic for one character: Sonic. It's semi-iconic for the electric type Pokemon. At best, it could be "semi-semi" iconic, as he's normal speed in NSMBWiiU.

1) Super Mario 3D World and second, people know that game. Where did that come from?

Yes, they know it to an extent, but they also know Toad from SM64, SMSun, Luigi's Mansion, and etc, arguably with a more lasting effect (and obviously a greater effect due to simply selling more.)

2) It really doesn't.

Based on what we have to work with:
1. It showing up whenever possible [look at the cast for yourself]
2. It making movesets easier to come up with [a priori]
3. Sakurai stating he takes inspiration for characters in Smash Bros. based on what they did in their own games.. [should be known]

Yeah, I'm gonna just go ahead and call it a huge factor. Unless you have some solid evidence that goes against those 3 points up there.

Haha, okay we've all had a lot of fun, but if no one's heard of SMB2, then clearly Peach's entire moveset was pulled out her ***. When it wasn't being used as a means of attack, I mean.

Almost all has been addressed earlier in this post. Give it a read if you want.
You and I, specifically, have also gone over where several of Peach's characters/moves came from, and accepted that a few are, indeed, very personal.

Also you're debunking Toad from using attacks that aren't personal to him even his special attacks from spinoffs like Mario Kart and Sports Mix(which actually ARE unique to his species) whilst at the same time supporting Waluigi who logically can't have ANY moves unless you dip into those spinoffs or pull asspulls. I like Waluigi, but he's got less to work with than Toad by your arguement.

That's true. There are three reasons I support Waluigi more than Toad
1. Balance. We have the Mario Bros, but we only have one half of the "Wario Bros."
2. Easier. If we innovated for moves (as we do for at least some moves, sometimes many, in almost every character,) then the innovations for basic moves are extremely simple. Instead of having to use spores in a funky way, which is a pretty funky idea (in comparison,) we can just have long-limbed Waluigi have long-range kicks and punches.
3. Appeal. Waluigi has significantly more demand (at the moment and in the last year) based partially on the stickied polls, and partially on my own personal observation. I'll work with what I can get, so my anecdotal evidence, which falls in line with the empirical (though skewed by competitive players) poll from the SWB thread, adds into my prediction/assessment.

Toad IS an important Mario character, hell; he's an important Nintendo character. To pretend otherwise would be to ignore any of the games he's been playable in, ignore his popularity in Japan, ignore his world wide recognition. That's just...well; stupid.

Thank goodness I don't. I said Toad isn't as important to the Mario franchise as Peach, that Toad isn't as important for Smash Bros Roster balance as Zelda (we gotta have Mario & Peach before Link and Zelda. We gotta have Link and Zelda before we have Mario, Peach, and Toad. The other Mario Characters (and semi-Mario) of Luigi, Bowser, *Wario, and *Yoshi all are more important for the roster than Toad. Bowser Jr and Waluigi, IMO, as well (Toad's only true advantage over Bowser Jr is that he goes further back. In recent games, Bowser Jr is playing a much bigger role than the forever-there-usually-tagalong Toad.

Will Toad be playable? Hell if I know, but he has the ingredients required to be a great character.

Many characters have ingredients that could make a great character, but he's seriously lacking in the inherent moveset/persona/etc. department. Unless, of course, we start saying that inherent/personal/etc. moveset, in a "party-fighting" game, "isn't important" Lol, like our friend Berserker has come to say.

I think a more updated version of "If no one's heard of SMB2" is now "If no one's heard of Super Mario 3D World", the game that will be acting as the next 3D Mario game that will usually wow fans especially with that direct trailer. We wouldn't need the "If SMB2 is known" argument since it would be only useful for the fact that Peach has something from it

If Toad carries on his actions from SMB2 to SM3DW, then that would help Toad a lot. If we want Toad, we have to hope (alongside many things. The more hopes that come true, the better) that Sakurai didn't already make up his mind before SM3DW was announced.

 

[Berserker.]

I have no idea where this went so I'll let this slip by.

Why so? Because all of a sudden, you start talking about how Sakurai didn't make up his mind on Toad. I'm not talking about that to begin with

Instead, I'll rely on my next post after Arca's

Many characters have ingredients that could make a great character, but he's seriously lacking in the inherent moveset/persona/etc. department. Unless, of course, we start saying that inherent/personal/etc. moveset, in a "party-fighting" game, "isn't important" Lol, like our friend Berserker has come to say.

I think I should have rephrased the whole "Moveset potential doesn't matter" thing into "Everyone has moveset potential so the argument doesn't work against anyone"

 

[Arcadenik]

Yeah, about Isaac... It is too bad that his franchise is dead and I think the filthy casuals don't know who Isaac is and what Isaac would do. Hell, they probably think he is just a generic swordsman from Fire Emblem.

 

[Berserker.]

Bam : http://smashboards.com/entries/the-origin-of-movesets.3736/

 

[FalKoopa]

 

[Arcadenik]

Does EddyBearr even know that Super Mario Bros. 2 got remakes and ports within the last 12 years?

Super Mario Advance for the GBA
Super Mario All-Stars for the Wii
Virtual Console on the Wii and 3DS (not sure about Wii U)

So, it is not just 35 year old gamers who would know about Toad's speed. Children under 15 would know about Toad's speed before they knew about Super Mario 3D World.