Toad parade - Oh boy it's Els--- I mean, Rosalina

[Berserker.]

Nothing to see here :O

Anyway, I'll just stick by what I said and say that : Toad has moveset potential.

I won't squeeze into how Toad's moves can actually display his personality since well, Sakurai could pull that off with any character anyway. Toad's moveset can reflect on himself based on what he does or what he is or what his personality is or whatever. If that won't change your mind then I don't know what will. If it still won't change your thinking then fine. I've said what I could say anyway.

But them I partially distrust Sakurai because of what he did to Gandalfdorf--- I mean Ganondorf

 

[EddyBearr]

Just follow me around, and you'll live a very entertaining Smashboards life. Next Stop: Fire Emblem thread. "Argument: Chrom and Ike; Marth, Lucina, and Roy. Pick one from each, but you can't mix them together. You can not have any more than 2." (JK, but I might.)

BTW, off-topic, but I've been concerned. Has your situation been affected much by the typhoon? If it was, much progress?

Yeah, about Isaac... It is too bad that his franchise is dead and I think the filthy casuals don't know who Isaac is and what Isaac would do. Hell, they probably think he is just a generic swordsman from Fire Emblem.

That's why, in my post, I said "those who know Isaac." It's an acknowledgement to him not being that well known. When it comes to unrepresented franchises though, Isaac has among the most sales, and his recency isn't quite "dead." Many of his customers (early 2000's) are still in games (myself included.) some customers will recognize it from Dark Dawn. Out of potential newcomers from new franchises, Isaac is top 2 or 3, depending on if you separate Paper Mario from Mario. Only Punch-Out!! With Little Mac has more sales. Due to recency, Shulk is definitely a strong competitor.

So, if you were to ask.. 100 "Nintendo fans" about Isaac, you might find 5 who know about him, and since they know about him, they know very clearly what he does. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find 1 who says "Toad does ___ because he did it in Wario's Woods."

Other than that, yes, he'd probably seem like a "Marth character" to some filthy casuals, at first glance.

I have no idea where this went so I'll let this slip by.

Why so? Because all of a sudden, you start talking about how Sakurai didn't make up his mind on Toad. I'm not talking about that to begin with

I never said Sakurai hasn't made up his mind on Toad.
What I said: "If Sakurai did not make up his mind on Toad Before SM3DW, then his moves from SMB2 would be more recognized (if his moves from SMB2 are passed on to SM3DW)

I think I should have rephrased the whole "Moveset potential doesn't matter" thing into "Everyone has moveset potential so the argument doesn't work against anyone"

You saying this is simply not a case of reading my posts before replying.
I have been, for a long time, criticizing Toad as lacking a unique & "personal" moveset potential. I have ceaselessly said that even a box of corn flakes has "moveset potential," so yes everything has moveset potential. Toad lacks personal and iconic moveset potential. He only has practical moveset potential, a few non-unique semi-personal potential moves, and like 3 truly personal moves (that very few folks would know about because you have to go to games like Wario's Woods for them.)

I have been discriminating these things since my first detailed posts in this thread. You proposing to discriminate between these 2 things is simply a sign of not even reading my posts.

Bam : http://smashboards.com/entries/the-origin-of-movesets.3736/

There was no point to this Link.

Source credibility: A random poster for a competitive gaming website, who as stated directly in the article, is making an opinionated article. Credibility: Just plain not there.

Source conclusions:
-Nothing has "no moveset potential." This is beyond obvious, and I have said this in many arguments. This is why I very often bring up "box of corn flakes" when talking about "theoretically possible moveset."
-"It's nicer if characters have a moveset from their game." This is my point. That's everything I'm holding against Toad. Toad lacks this extensively, and when he has it, it's taking stretches and leaps. There's nothing wrong with doing some of that, but the more of it you have to do, the worse it has.

I haven't argued that Toad has no moveset potential. He could use his mushroom-head in like 40 ways to have an entire moveset. Everything has theoretical moveset potential. I'm asking for personal/unique/iconic moveset potential, which evidence suggests matters.

Does EddyBearr even know that Super Mario Bros. 2 got remakes and ports within the last 12 years?

Super Mario Advance for the GBA
Super Mario All-Stars for the Wii
Virtual Console on the Wii and 3DS (not sure about Wii U)

So, it is not just 35 year old gamers who would know about Toad's speed. Children under 15 would know about Toad's speed before they knew about Super Mario 3D World.

I'm aware of those. This is why, in one of my long posts, I said that Toads appearances in major titles (not "easy sale handheld remakes") are "more memorable," not just because of their nature, but also because of their sales.
The more closely you read my posts, the more nuance you'll find. People, in everything from Religion & politics to the importance of math in school to smash bros roster, tend to have a hard time understanding my arguments, because rather than arguing a straight point, I tend to argue subtly-nuanced and open-ended possibilities. Eventually (as berserker has done) they end up making proposals that I was arguing for in the very beginning, had they paid a bit more attention to the open-endedness of my claims, and the high level of discrimination between similar things. EX: a whole lot of "less," and very little "not." Separating theoretical moveset with personal moveset with iconic moveset. All for movesets.. I'd also add "practical" moveset to that list. For an example of each one: Mario. I could probably discriminate further than that, but.. too much nuance can be a bad thing.
1. Theoretical moveset: Mario could rip off a button on his overall and throw it at his opponent.
2. Practical moveset: Generic kick (side tilt)
3. Personal moveset: Down smash (SM64)
4. Iconic moveset: FLUDD.

Nothing to see here :O

Anyway, I'll just stick by what I said and say that : Toad has moveset potential.

That's true. So does a box of corn flakes. I've detailed a few potential moves for a box of corn flakes earlier in this thread.
But simply having a theoretical moveset potential isn't an argument. You can go back and re-read my posts if you must.

I won't squeeze into how Toad's moves can actually display his personality since well, Sakurai could pull that off with any character anyway. Toad's moveset can reflect on himself based on what he does or what he is or what his personality is or whatever. If that won't change your mind then I don't know what will. If it still won't change your thinking then fine. I've said what I could say anyway.

It's a factor, and it helps Toad. It helps even more since Toad is such a developed (personality-wise) character. Luigi has been shown to be an awkward guy, hence his dash attack. It influences my decision, but it was influencing my decision before this thread, because I'd already acknowledged it. It didn't win me over because it doesn't fall in-line with what Sakurai said they do, which is "take what their like/what they do in their games and have them do that in Smash" in regards to actually doing things. Personality and subtle mannerisms, imo, is best described through Taunts and add-ons to the actual move. Link's personality of being very quiet, though mannerisms of making grunts when he attacks is best shown by him grunting when attacking, and having his Melee Taunt where he makes a sound, which when combined with his action, shows a bit of bashfulness.

But them I partially distrust Sakurai because of what he did to Gandalfdorf--- I mean Ganondorf

We all do.

 

[Berserker.]

And I'm out

 

[EddyBearr]

And I'm out

Something tells me that you didn't read my post, which was mostly me complaining about you not reading my posts.

It was lengthy because it was re-iteration of the things I've been saying this whole time, including things you yourself suggest we do, which I already had been doing from the start, and which you would have noticed if you read my posts thoroughly.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Please; enjoy the show. Looks like we might be at this a while.

Almost all has been addressed earlier in this post. Give it a read if you want.
You and I, specifically, have also gone over where several of Peach's characters/moves came from, and accepted that a few are, indeed, very personal.

Indeed we have and I even learned a new thing from that(Peach's jab combo origin), which makes me wonder why Peach's down + B being from SMB2 or her ability to float seems to be fine, but Toad's superior speed and power does not. It's just inconsistent and it bothers me.

That's true. There are three reasons I support Waluigi more than Toad
1. Balance. We have the Mario Bros, but we only have one half of the "Wario Bros."
2. Easier. If we innovated for moves (as we do for at least some moves, sometimes many, in almost every character,) then the innovations for basic moves are extremely simple. Instead of having to use spores in a funky way, which is a pretty funky idea (in comparison,) we can just have long-limbed Waluigi have long-range kicks and punches.
3. Appeal. Waluigi has significantly more demand (at the moment and in the last year) based partially on the stickied polls, and partially on my own personal observation. I'll work with what I can get, so my anecdotal evidence, which falls in line with the empirical (though skewed by competitive players) poll from the SWB thread, adds into my prediction/assessment.

Buh? Your reasoning for this seems weird.

1. We need the other Wario brother? Are they even brothers? Why do we need Waluigi? I actually like Waluigi, but I don't see him as anymore essential than Daisy. After all, she finishes off the Mario/Peach, Luigi/Daisy pairing.
Comparatively I could argue we need Toad to finish off the SMB2/SM3D World crew. We have Mario, Luigi and Peach. All we're missing is Toad.
2. Didn't you earlier tell us that it'd be really lame if Toad had easy moves to implement such as headbutts? Now you're telling me it's okay for Waluigi to be using standard attacks, but not Toad? This argument seems to be inconsistent.
3. Appeal? Waluigi has as big a hate base as he does a fan base. Similarly, Toad has a lot of popularity. Why else is he being pushed for Mario platformers? If Nintendo wanted they could of filled the role with Wario and Waluigi, since the former has aided the plumbers before(Super Mario 64DS) and the latter really needs to be placed in a platformer already. Plus they look more like the plumbers.

The moveset thing has been covered repeatedly by the Starfox, Falcon and to some extent Peach examples my fellow Toad Brigaders have brought up. This point is never going to be agreed on since I say Toad has moveset potential and you say he doesn't. Neither of us will give up our stances and we shall forever be locked in battle.

Is Toad more important than Zelda? Nope. I agree. Is he 'one' of the most important Mario characters left to be put into Smash? Yes. Is Toad receiving more and more playable roles? Yes. Will this continue? Who knows, but obviously someone at Nintendo believes him to be a popular and fun character else he wouldn't be getting such a push in the main games of recent.

 

[Arcadenik]

You know.... EddyBearr said Smash simply cannot exist without Peach or Zelda... well...

 

[EddyBearr]

Please; enjoy the show. Looks like we might be at this a while.

Hopefully I can further explain my view.

Indeed we have and I even learned a new thing from that(Peach's jab combo origin), which makes me wonder why Peach's down + B being from SMB2 or her ability to float seems to be fine, but Toad's superior speed and power does not. It's just inconsistent and it bothers me.

*I've learned a lot about Toad, which brought me from him being a like "2/10" for inclusion to about "4/10." With that said, I find Bowser Jr a 6 or 7 out of 10, and Waluigi a 5 or 6. Fortunately for Toad, idc if Mario has 25% of the cast, and I tend to group Bowser Jr. with Yoshi and Waluigi with Wario (while at the same time grouping all three together, and more being "subgroups within a large group." Such a complicated system of classification. Lol. Man I'm weird..)

Actually, if you'll go back to our earlier discussion, I said it works, but not well-enough (might have said that in the general prediction thread, though..) Regardless, that's been my stance for a while.

Simultaneously, I said that Toad's speed is inconsistent, with him being of average speed in NSMBWiiU. In Today's world, his NSMBWiiU portayal is more remembered than his SMB2, among potential customers.

Buh? Your reasoning for this seems weird.

Hopefully I can re-iterate.

1. We need the other Wario brother? Are they even brothers? Why do we need Waluigi? I actually like Waluigi, but I don't see him as anymore essential than Daisy. After all, she finishes off the Mario/Peach, Luigi/Daisy pairing.

They're not literal brothers, no, as far as we know. I called them the "Wario Bros" just like I call Peach "Mrs. Nintendo." It's just to show the importance and clear relationship.
I consider Waluigi more important than Daisy. Daisy being Luigi's lover is fan speculation, not Nintendo. Nintendo shows Peach kissing Mario and Mario blushing from it, but not with Daisy & Luigi.
Personally, I think the hero vs villain counterparts role as more necessary for being full than the "Brother 1 + love interest, and brother 2 + "highly speculated" love interest" role.
The relationship between the Wario bros & Mario bros is also a more differentiating relationship than the Mario Bros + princesses, solely because the Princesses imitate each other without counteracting the males, while the villains are each unique and they make clear "antithesis" characteristics of the heroes.
Above all that, Waluigi has more unique moveset potential than Daisy. Daisy is literally a peach color-swap, while Waluigi is nothing like Wario nor Luigi.
Even more so than that, Waluigi's role as "assist-trophy" in Brawl exemplifies his uniqueness, unlike Daisy's "color swap" role, in Brawl & Melee.

Comparatively I could argue we need Toad to finish off the SMB2/SM3D World crew. We have Mario, Luigi and Peach. All we're missing is Toad.

I think the "SMB2" crew schema is far-less significant than the "hero-villian counterpart dichotomy" schema. People are exceedingly well-aware of Waluigi's relationship with the rest, while not many folks know about SMB2 in today's world.This also requires the assumption that Sakurai didn't already make up his mind on Toad before SM3D. We have no clue if SM3D is anywhere close to being a variable, which is why I discount both of those games. One is of a different era, and the other might be "too new" to be a factor.

2. Didn't you earlier tell us that it'd be really lame if Toad had easy moves to implement such as headbutts? Now you're telling me it's okay for Waluigi to be using standard attacks, but not Toad? This argument seems to be inconsistent.

It's not inconsistent, because I clearly stated that "some basic moves" is just fine. What I said was that Toad's moveset would have too many "basic moves," unless we start getting really goofy."

It's not a case of inconsistency, but rather a case of scale.

3. Appeal? Waluigi has as big a hate base as he does a fan base. Similarly, Toad has a lot of popularity. Why else is he being pushed for Mario platformers? If Nintendo wanted they could of filled the role with Wario and Waluigi, since the former has aided the plumbers before(Super Mario 64DS) and the latter really needs to be placed in a platformer already. Plus they look more like the plumbers.

Truth. Like I said, my evidence consists of recent poll data for SWF, and my own anecdotal experience. I know Waluigi has a big hate base.

The moveset thing has been covered repeatedly by the Starfox, Falcon and to some extent Peach examples my fellow Toad Brigaders have brought up.

Here's what I have said before:
Fox: He is perfectly fine. Fox had enough canon info (lasers, high-tech, robo-legs) and was 100% necessary given how huge Star Fox 64 was. He was as big as DK at the time. Fox is a case of "improvised movesets / highly general moveset" being accepted because of other factors that made his inclusion a requirement.
Falco & Wolf: I have expressed huge displeasure with Falco and Wolf and consider Star Fox the biggest mess on Smash Bros. In the Krystal thread, I earlier today stated that (imo) the perfect roster (not likely) would be Fox (with some of Falco & wolf's aspects) and Krystal, with her staff.
Falco & Wolf (Why): Star Fox was big enough to warrant a second slot in Melee, hence Falco. Falco got into the game in the context of a "clone-heavy" streak by Sakurai. Wolf getting in can largely be attributed to fan demand, both due to Wolf's own merits, but also because of how well-loved the "space animal" style was in Melee.
Falcon: I have said that Falcon was a huge surprise. The only decent factor I could think of is Falcon filling a hugely missing niche from the Smash Bros. roster: The "stereotypical fighting game" fighter. I have also stated that despite Falcon's lackluster moveset, it has ended up working fantastically, so I have further said that sometimes it can work. I have said it should be avoided, and the less, the better.
Peach: Mrs. Nintendo had to be in.Exceptions in general can exist, but that doesn't make the rule stop existing.

This point is never going to be agreed on since I say Toad has moveset potential and you say he doesn't. Neither of us will give up our stances and we shall forever be locked in battle.

I never said he doesn't have moveset potential. In fact, in the very post you replied to, I differentiated between moveset potential types. I said he is severely lacking in the two which, imo, matter most. To make matters even more complicated, I'm gonna go ahead and add a 5th one.
1. Theoretical potential. A box of corn flakes can have this, so it's not "potential" in the sense that it's a scale you can measure.
2. Practical potential. Anything with arms and legs can punch and kick. Almost every single can do this, so it matters very little to separate characters by moveset potential. This should not be considered. This is why toad's headbutt can't matter much, because anything with a head can headbutt.
3. Borderline potential. Examples: Toad is a mushroom, therefore mushroom moves, spores, throwing mushroom items, etc. In one game, he used an item that all playable characters could use, but the other characters are not using in Smash atm. (Ice ball from NSMBWiiU)
4. Personal potential: Things he actually did in game or things that actually have to do with him. Toad has very little of this, mostly from a long time ago.
5. Iconic moveset. Toad has none of this, at all.

Ideally, a character should have something iconic in their moveset (Peach does not, but she had to be in the game due to other factors, so she's an exception,) plenty of personal potential (Fox lacked this, but he had to be in the game. He had 1 move: his laser, and some borderline potential (Fox using a reflector because he's high-tech. Captain falcon's falcon punch. Peach having feminine mannersisms) Practical potential, which exists for everything that can move, can be used to fill the gaps where it doesn't matter (pummel) or where it's needed to balance or finish off the moveset (EX: Peach needed some moves, so she used her butt. In an Isaac moveset I made, I gave him a few basic attacks so not everything was Psynergy or Djinn based, which is over-the-top. For Peach, it was needed to finish, and for Isaac, it was needed to balance)

Is Toad more important than Zelda? Nope. I agree. Is he 'one' of the most important Mario characters left to be put into Smash? Yes. Is Toad receiving more and more playable roles? Yes. Will this continue? Who knows, but obviously someone at Nintendo believes him to be a popular and fun character else he wouldn't be getting such a push in the main games of recent.

I don't disagree with anything here.

You know.... EddyBearr said Smash simply cannot exist without Peach or Zelda... well...

Factors that make it an exception:
1. First-game. Test-run. Limited roster, focusing on All-Stars. Must reach all target audiences (EX: Metroid fans, Pokemon Fans, Star Fox fans,) without necessarily appeasing those who'd, say, rather play as Ridley than Samus.
2. Huge lack of funds
3. Only 12 slots to represent all of Nintendo. (A result of #2)

There's a reason that Peach and Zelda were both added to Melee: They were needed to Balance them out, and now they actually could.

Think back to 1999.
Big games: Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Star Fox, Metroid, DK, Yoshi, Kirby, lotsa medium ones like F-Zero.
Icons(imo, I think it's reasonable): Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Pikachu, Meowth, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Charizard, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Andross, Samus, Ridley, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, King K Rool, Kirby, DDD, Metaknight.
Top 12 (in order [imo, I think it's reasonable]): Mario, Luigi, Pikachu, Link, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Fox, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Samus, Ganondorf, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Metaknight/K.Rool/DeDeDe/Ridley/???
12 characters (check next icons, double check next to top 12 icons): Mario(XX), Luigi(XX), Pikachu(XX), Link(XX), Yoshi(XX,) DK(XX), Fox(XX), Samus (XX), Kirby,(XX) Jigglypuff(X) C. Falcon, Ness.
Exceptions:
Jigglypuff: Hard to make sense of. Maybe just because Pokemon is huge.. but yeah, I've said before on this board that it would have been ideal if we got Meowth or Pit in SSB64 (given the context of what we got in Melee.)
Ness: PAL developer's "bias"/"footprint."
C. Falcon: Again, weird. F-Zero was decent size, but not gigantic. Maybe it was to fill the niche. It might also be an homage to the original plans, for a basic fighting game with basic fighters.
Luigi: Mario is the big franchise. Mario & Luigi is the classic battle of siblings. I'm sure any of us who grew up with Mario identified more with one or hte other (myself Luigi,) and since this game is a "Party" game (mario Kart is a "Party Racing" game, smash is a "Party fighting" game,) the target audience was families and friends/kids.

In SSB64, we got a rep from all the big names, the alternative in the biggest franchise and a source of sibling rivalry (so much fun), a "normal fighter," a developer's bias, and Jigglypuff. Apart from Jigglypuff, I think this was the best route they could go (if they valued developer's footprint and "normal fighter") given the context of their limitations, especially in funding. Think of it in the sense that their go-to was a new character from a big franchise, before adding bigger icons like Peach or Bowser who already had Mario to show from their franchise.

To summarize, outside of Smash 64 with it's severely limiting factors and far-reaching intent (it was an "All-of-Nintendo" game.), Smash can not exist without such huge icons as Peach and Zelda. In any roster that actually has enough room to add more than 1 character from the big franchises, not including them is absurd. They are such big icons that they warrant being an exception to an expectation.

 

[Pacack]

Hopefully I can further explain my view.



*I've learned a lot about Toad, which brought me from him being a like "2/10" for inclusion to about "4/10." With that said, I find Bowser Jr a 6 or 7 out of 10, and Waluigi a 5 or 6. Fortunately for Toad, idc if Mario has 25% of the cast, and I tend to group Bowser Jr. with Yoshi and Waluigi with Wario (while at the same time grouping all three together, and more being "subgroups within a large group." Such a complicated system of classification. Lol. Man I'm weird..)

Actually, if you'll go back to our earlier discussion, I said it works, but not well-enough (might have said that in the general prediction thread, though..) Regardless, that's been my stance for a while.

Simultaneously, I said that Toad's speed is inconsistent, with him being of average speed in NSMBWiiU. In Today's world, his NSMBWiiU portayal is more remembered than his SMB2, among potential customers.



Hopefully I can re-iterate.

They're not literal brothers, no, as far as we know. I called them the "Wario Bros" just like I call Peach "Mrs. Nintendo." It's just to show the importance and clear relationship.
I consider Waluigi more important than Daisy. Daisy being Luigi's lover is fan speculation, not Nintendo. Nintendo shows Peach kissing Mario and Mario blushing from it, but not with Daisy & Luigi.
Personally, I think the hero vs villain counterparts role as more necessary for being full than the "Brother 1 + love interest, and brother 2 + "highly speculated" love interest" role.
The relationship between the Wario bros & Mario bros is also a more differentiating relationship than the Mario Bros + princesses, solely because the Princesses imitate each other without counteracting the males, while the villains are each unique and they make clear "antithesis" characteristics of the heroes.
Above all that, Waluigi has more unique moveset potential than Daisy. Daisy is literally a peach color-swap, while Waluigi is nothing like Wario nor Luigi.
Even more so than that, Waluigi's role as "assist-trophy" in Brawl exemplifies his uniqueness, unlike Daisy's "color swap" role, in Brawl & Melee.



I think the "SMB2" crew schema is far-less significant than the "hero-villian counterpart dichotomy" schema. People are exceedingly well-aware of Waluigi's relationship with the rest, while not many folks know about SMB2 in today's world.This also requires the assumption that Sakurai didn't already make up his mind on Toad before SM3D. We have no clue if SM3D is anywhere close to being a variable, which is why I discount both of those games. One is of a different era, and the other might be "too new" to be a factor.


It's not inconsistent, because I clearly stated that "some basic moves" is just fine. What I said was that Toad's moveset would have too many "basic moves," unless we start getting really goofy."

It's not a case of inconsistency, but rather a case of scale.


Truth. Like I said, my evidence consists of recent poll data for SWF, and my own anecdotal experience. I know Waluigi has a big hate base.


Here's what I have said before:
Fox: He is perfectly fine. Fox had enough canon info (lasers, high-tech, robo-legs) and was 100% necessary given how huge Star Fox 64 was. He was as big as DK at the time. Fox is a case of "improvised movesets / highly general moveset" being accepted because of other factors that made his inclusion a requirement.
Falco & Wolf: I have expressed huge displeasure with Falco and Wolf and consider Star Fox the biggest mess on Smash Bros. In the Krystal thread, I earlier today stated that (imo) the perfect roster (not likely) would be Fox (with some of Falco & wolf's aspects) and Krystal, with her staff.
Falco & Wolf (Why): Star Fox was big enough to warrant a second slot in Melee, hence Falco. Falco got into the game in the context of a "clone-heavy" streak by Sakurai. Wolf getting in can largely be attributed to fan demand, both due to Wolf's own merits, but also because of how well-loved the "space animal" style was in Melee.
Falcon: I have said that Falcon was a huge surprise. The only decent factor I could think of is Falcon filling a hugely missing niche from the Smash Bros. roster: The "stereotypical fighting game" fighter. I have also stated that despite Falcon's lackluster moveset, it has ended up working fantastically, so I have further said that sometimes it can work. I have said it should be avoided, and the less, the better.
Peach: Mrs. Nintendo had to be in.Exceptions in general can exist, but that doesn't make the rule stop existing.

I never said he doesn't have moveset potential. In fact, in the very post you replied to, I differentiated between moveset potential types. I said he is severely lacking in the two which, imo, matter most. To make matters even more complicated, I'm gonna go ahead and add a 5th one.
1. Theoretical potential. A box of corn flakes can have this, so it's not "potential" in the sense that it's a scale you can measure.
2. Practical potential. Anything with arms and legs can punch and kick. Almost every single can do this, so it matters very little to separate characters by moveset potential. This should not be considered. This is why toad's headbutt can't matter much, because anything with a head can headbutt.
3. Borderline potential. Examples: Toad is a mushroom, therefore mushroom moves, spores, throwing mushroom items, etc. In one game, he used an item that all playable characters could use, but the other characters are not using in Smash atm. (Ice ball from NSMBWiiU)
4. Personal potential: Things he actually did in game or things that actually have to do with him. Toad has very little of this, mostly from a long time ago.
5. Iconic moveset. Toad has none of this, at all.

Ideally, a character should have something iconic in their moveset (Peach does not, but she had to be in the game due to other factors, so she's an exception,) plenty of personal potential (Fox lacked this, but he had to be in the game. He had 1 move: his laser, and some borderline potential (Fox using a reflector because he's high-tech. Captain falcon's falcon punch. Peach having feminine mannersisms) Practical potential, which exists for everything that can move, can be used to fill the gaps where it doesn't matter (pummel) or where it's needed to balance or finish off the moveset (EX: Peach needed some moves, so she used her butt. In an Isaac moveset I made, I gave him a few basic attacks so not everything was Psynergy or Djinn based, which is over-the-top. For Peach, it was needed to finish, and for Isaac, it was needed to balance)


I don't disagree with anything here.



Factors that make it an exception:
1. First-game. Test-run. Limited roster, focusing on All-Stars. Must reach all target audiences (EX: Metroid fans, Pokemon Fans, Star Fox fans,) without necessarily appeasing those who'd, say, rather play as Ridley than Samus.
2. Huge lack of funds
3. Only 12 slots to represent all of Nintendo. (A result of #2)

There's a reason that Peach and Zelda were both added to Melee: They were needed to Balance them out, and now they actually could.

Think back to 1999.
Big games: Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Star Fox, Metroid, DK, Yoshi, Kirby, lotsa medium ones like F-Zero.
Icons(imo, I think it's reasonable): Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Pikachu, Meowth, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Charizard, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Andross, Samus, Ridley, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, King K Rool, Kirby, DDD, Metaknight.
Top 12 (in order [imo, I think it's reasonable]): Mario, Luigi, Pikachu, Link, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Fox, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Samus, Ganondorf, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Metaknight/K.Rool/DeDeDe/Ridley/???
12 characters (check next icons, double check next to top 12 icons): Mario(XX), Luigi(XX), Pikachu(XX), Link(XX), Yoshi(XX,) DK(XX), Fox(XX), Samus (XX), Kirby,(XX) Jigglypuff(X) C. Falcon, Ness.
Exceptions:
Jigglypuff: Hard to make sense of. Maybe just because Pokemon is huge.. but yeah, I've said before on this board that it would have been ideal if we got Meowth or Pit in SSB64 (given the context of what we got in Melee.)
Ness: PAL developer's "bias"/"footprint."
C. Falcon: Again, weird. F-Zero was decent size, but not gigantic. Maybe it was to fill the niche. It might also be an homage to the original plans, for a basic fighting game with basic fighters.
Luigi: Mario is the big franchise. Mario & Luigi is the classic battle of siblings. I'm sure any of us who grew up with Mario identified more with one or hte other (myself Luigi,) and since this game is a "Party" game (mario Kart is a "Party Racing" game, smash is a "Party fighting" game,) the target audience was families and friends/kids.

In SSB64, we got a rep from all the big names, the alternative in the biggest franchise and a source of sibling rivalry (so much fun), a "normal fighter," a developer's bias, and Jigglypuff. Apart from Jigglypuff, I think this was the best route they could go (if they valued developer's footprint and "normal fighter") given the context of their limitations, especially in funding. Think of it in the sense that their go-to was a new character from a big franchise, before adding bigger icons like Peach or Bowser who already had Mario to show from their franchise.

To summarize, outside of Smash 64 with it's severely limiting factors and far-reaching intent (it was an "All-of-Nintendo" game.), Smash can not exist without such huge icons as Peach and Zelda. In any roster that actually has enough room to add more than 1 character from the big franchises, not including them is absurd. They are such big icons that they warrant being an exception to an expectation.

You like typing, don't you?

 

[YoshiandToad]

He certainly does, Pacack.

I'll respond to a few points that aren't sitting right with me later tonight. There's still a few things that I want to bring up.

 

[EddyBearr]

You like typing, don't you?

Ever since I was a little boy, I would type "3 paragraphs" for a 1 paragraph "report," or 7-10 pages for a 3-4 page "essay."

It also helps that any time I type something, I try to be as agnostic, nuanced, exemplary, and explanatory as I can, which means that every thing I type, including this sentence, will be filled with if's, and's, and perhaps'es, which sadly seem to diminish my core points. I'd like to change that.

It happens in real life, too, with words/speaking.

 

[Arcadenik]

A "yes" would suffice, Mojo Jojo.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Hold on guys this is gonna be biiiig.

Hopefully I can further explain my view.

*I've learned a lot about Toad, which brought me from him being a like "2/10" for inclusion to about "4/10." With that said, I find Bowser Jr a 6 or 7 out of 10, and Waluigi a 5 or 6. Fortunately for Toad, idc if Mario has 25% of the cast, and I tend to group Bowser Jr. with Yoshi and Waluigi with Wario (while at the same time grouping all three together, and more being "subgroups within a large group." Such a complicated system of classification. Lol. Man I'm weird..)

As much as I'd love for that logic to be right(I like Mario characters so the more the merrier; not sure if that was clear from my user name), we all know that unfortunately Waluigi and Bowser Jr are Mario characters as neither have appeared in either a Wario or Yoshi game before.

Waluigi really SHOULD have been in a Wario game by this point. I'd argue NSMB2 should of been a Wario Bros. game, but that's a topic for another time.

Actually, if you'll go back to our earlier discussion, I said it works, but not well-enough (might have said that in the general prediction thread, though..) Regardless, that's been my stance for a while.

Simultaneously, I said that Toad's speed is inconsistent, with him being of average speed in NSMBWiiU. In Today's world, his NSMBWiiU portayal is more remembered than his SMB2, among potential customers.

Luigi's jump has been inconsistant. In some games he can out jump Mario, who is ironically associated as being good at jumping. However by this logic, Luigi is merely also exactly the same as Mario. Hell, he can't even jump in his own game series; Luigi's Mansion. Depending on the game, Luigi is also either slower, faster or merely has poorer traction that Mario when it comes to running around. Although sometimes they're the same speed. If we go by NSMB logic then the brothers are exactly the same.

They're not literal brothers, no, as far as we know. I called them the "Wario Bros" just like I call Peach "Mrs. Nintendo." It's just to show the importance and clear relationship.
I consider Waluigi more important than Daisy. Daisy being Luigi's lover is fan speculation, not Nintendo. Nintendo shows Peach kissing Mario and Mario blushing from it, but not with Daisy & Luigi.
Personally, I think the hero vs villain counterparts role as more necessary for being full than the "Brother 1 + love interest, and brother 2 + "highly speculated" love interest" role.
The relationship between the Wario bros & Mario bros is also a more differentiating relationship than the Mario Bros + princesses, solely because the Princesses imitate each other without counteracting the males, while the villains are each unique and they make clear "antithesis" characteristics of the heroes.
Above all that, Waluigi has more unique moveset potential than Daisy. Daisy is literally a peach color-swap, while Waluigi is nothing like Wario nor Luigi.
Even more so than that, Waluigi's role as "assist-trophy" in Brawl exemplifies his uniqueness, unlike Daisy's "color swap" role, in Brawl & Melee.

Not Toad related, but if we're going by the spinoffs, which I presume we are, Nintendo has heavily hinted at Luigi and Daisy's relationship: Mario Kart Wii references their relationship with golden statues of the two holding hands. Also Daisy's victory movie in Mario Power Tennis has her call him sweetie, and poor old Luigi looks flustered.
Whilst I agree that Waluigi has a lot more to work with than Daisy, I'd also like to point out there's a strong contrast between her and Peach; Daisy is way more aggressive than Peach, and is a lot bolder and outgoing compared to the cowardly and awkward Luigi. This has nothing to do with Toad talk or Smash talk, I just wanted to point out the princesses weren't entirely the same personality wise. We've seen Daisy punch Bowser into the sky, something Peach will only ever do in Smash Bros.

I think the "SMB2" crew schema is far-less significant than the "hero-villian counterpart dichotomy" schema. People are exceedingly well-aware of Waluigi's relationship with the rest, while not many folks know about SMB2 in today's world.This also requires the assumption that Sakurai didn't already make up his mind on Toad before SM3D. We have no clue if SM3D is anywhere close to being a variable, which is why I discount both of those games. One is of a different era, and the other might be "too new" to be a factor.

Well I suppose if you want to cherry pick and ignore Toad's richer history in the main story as a character, his involvement in SMB2 or it's remakes, Wario's Woods, or even as the only remaining playable protagonist in Mario's main games including the latest one that's coming out soon, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, NSMBWU and Luigi U, then sure; I guess this point is valid. The above suggestion however seems to be based on a very hypothetical person who knows Mario;

One who knows mostly the spinoff games to be precise and only know of any game after Mario Tennis for the N64, one who hasn't played NSMBWii or it's sequels, nor played SMB2 on the Game Boy Advance. Even then, Toad is just as playable in the spinoffs as Waluigi is, with only Power Tennis not including Toad, and only Mario Kart 7 not including Waluigi.

Basically this hypothetical fan is not really a fan of Mario. Not even of Mario spinoffs if they haven't seen Toad kick the crap out of people in either Super striker game or Mario Sports Mix.

If we're going by marketability and recognisability I can also tell you there's a lot more Toad merchandise than Waluigi. I've been looking. Toad is going to be more recognisable. He also appeals to both boys and girls which is a plus with his cutesy design.

It's not inconsistent, because I clearly stated that "some basic moves" is just fine. What I said was that Toad's moveset would have too many "basic moves," unless we start getting really goofy."

It's not a case of inconsistency, but rather a case of scale.

King Dedede throws his henchmen at opponents. Wario bites down on people's heads, farts and rides a motorcycle into people. Peach attacks people with her backside, throws turnips at them, hits them with frying pans and uses Toad to deflect attacks. Yoshi throws his unborn children at his enemies. Game and Watch turns into a giant octopus as his Final Smash. Pikachu used to be able to make his opponents skeletons appear when he electrocuted them. Sonic can spawn and drop springs on his opponents from above. Mario fights with a cape and an overgrown water pistol. Luigi's running attack, his side + B, his bizarre Final Smash.

Smash Bros. is a goofy game already. All Mario characters have a level of goofiness to them. Waluigi is the goofiest character you could possibly support since you just KNOW he's going to be wackier than Wario(and rightly so). Why couldn't Toad join for being a little goofy?

I never said he doesn't have moveset potential. In fact, in the very post you replied to, I differentiated between moveset potential types. I said he is severely lacking in the two which, imo, matter most. To make matters even more complicated, I'm gonna go ahead and add a 5th one.
1. Theoretical potential. A box of corn flakes can have this, so it's not "potential" in the sense that it's a scale you can measure.
2. Practical potential. Anything with arms and legs can punch and kick. Almost every single can do this, so it matters very little to separate characters by moveset potential. This should not be considered. This is why toad's headbutt can't matter much, because anything with a head can headbutt.
3. Borderline potential. Examples: Toad is a mushroom, therefore mushroom moves, spores, throwing mushroom items, etc. In one game, he used an item that all playable characters could use, but the other characters are not using in Smash atm. (Ice ball from NSMBWiiU)
4. Personal potential: Things he actually did in game or things that actually have to do with him. Toad has very little of this, mostly from a long time ago.
5. Iconic moveset. Toad has none of this, at all.

1. OK; please stop using a box of cornflakes as an example, I honestly think it makes it harder for people to take you seriously. A box of cornflakes has no potential as a fighter; it cannot move on it's own; it's contents are in no way dangerous and comparing any character to this seems disrespectful. I'd prefer Nintendog or Diskun, as stupid a suggestion as they are being used as this example.

2. Toad's head is huge, and he's been shown to have speed and power; a headbutt from his head, especially since Sakurai has given him spore effects when he gets hit, will hurt more than a headbutt from someone like...I dunno; Pikachu.

3. The same as Ness and Lucas. Mario and Luigi are barely scraping the top layer of Mario powerups and Peach won't use them until SM3DW, which may or may not be a deciding factor for Toad. I'm honestly leaning towards 'will not', but it's something to bare in mind. Toad is the ONLY character shown to use Mario power ups that could feasibly use them at this point.

4. Whilst I understand a game being too new to pull things from, I don't understand why a game from yesteryear doesn't count when it comes to Toad. Are we going to tell Dixie (and K. Rool) to get lost because the Donkey Kong franchise was dead for a while and neither of these characters have appeared in a mainstream DK game until Tropical Freeze?

5. Nor did Falcon, nor did Peach, nor did the Space animals(Although yes; we'll let Fox get away with it I guess). Hell, Ness and Lucas don't even use their own iconic moves; instead borrowing from their buddies.
Yes, I read your point regarding these characters, but it's still worth pointing out that this isn't a big thing. Plus; Sakurai's already added spores as Toad's thing and the sports spinoffs have him using mushrooms for special attacks. Or flame kicks in the case of the Strikers games. That's still more than Falcon had going for him.

Ideally, a character should have something iconic in their moveset (Peach does not, but she had to be in the game due to other factors, so she's an exception,) plenty of personal potential (Fox lacked this, but he had to be in the game. He had 1 move: his laser, and some borderline potential (Fox using a reflector because he's high-tech. Captain falcon's falcon punch. Peach having feminine mannersisms) Practical potential, which exists for everything that can move, can be used to fill the gaps where it doesn't matter (pummel) or where it's needed to balance or finish off the moveset (EX: Peach needed some moves, so she used her butt. In an Isaac moveset I made, I gave him a few basic attacks so not everything was Psynergy or Djinn based, which is over-the-top. For Peach, it was needed to finish, and for Isaac, it was needed to balance)

I actually agree with this point. Like 100%

I just wish it applied to more Smashers.

Marth for example who just uses variants of sword slashes; yes he did it in his game, but god damn if Marth doesn't have the most boring moveset(at least Roy TRIED to spice things up by setting his sword on fire). Falco and Wolf having varients of Fox's moves. Ness and Lucas with their stolen moves. Falcon. Ganondorf. Zelda stealing her powers from Link. Toon Link; who could of been an original character with some of the dozens of alt weapons Link uses.

Toad's most iconic things have been discussed; poison mushroom, golden mushroom, Sakurai's spores addition, him being the item guy, his ability to run up walls in Wario's Woods, his power and speed, his cowardly nature despite these skills and his use of various mushrooms within the spinoff games. This puts him at least on the same level as all the above. Zelda should of used more of her light magic rather than borrowing Link's power ups if Toad isn't allowed to use the Mario Bros. powers.
At least he actually DOES use them in a game or four.

Factors that make it an exception:
1. First-game. Test-run. Limited roster, focusing on All-Stars. Must reach all target audiences (EX: Metroid fans, Pokemon Fans, Star Fox fans,) without necessarily appeasing those who'd, say, rather play as Ridley than Samus.
2. Huge lack of funds
3. Only 12 slots to represent all of Nintendo. (A result of #2)

Actually do agree. On all of these. I know this isn't aimed at me, but I've written this much, may as well continue.

Exceptions:
Jigglypuff: Hard to make sense of. Maybe just because Pokemon is huge.. but yeah, I've said before on this board that it would have been ideal if we got Meowth or Pit in SSB64 (given the context of what we got in Melee.)
Ness: PAL developer's "bias"/"footprint."
C. Falcon: Again, weird. F-Zero was decent size, but not gigantic. Maybe it was to fill the niche. It might also be an homage to the original plans, for a basic fighting game with basic fighters.
Luigi: Mario is the big franchise. Mario & Luigi is the classic battle of siblings. I'm sure any of us who grew up with Mario identified more with one or hte other (myself Luigi,) and since this game is a "Party" game (mario Kart is a "Party Racing" game, smash is a "Party fighting" game,) the target audience was families and friends/kids.

Actually do totally agree on Puff. Even back then I found her inclusion kind of bizarre since Meowth was the villain.
Ness and Falcon I agree on. Frankly I remember expecting Wario and Diddy back then.
Luigi. Luigi's actually my joint second favourite Mario character alongside Toad and after Yoshi. I did however find it odd that Bowser wasn't considered before Luigi since he was more important in the franchise. I just figured Luigi was easier to programme, much like Puff was in place of Meowth.

TO SUMMARIZE:

• Toad has enough to work with, even more than some previous smashers, using attacks that he's used in the past and not stolen off team mates or associates.
• His past shouldn't be ignored just because it's from older games. Especially since Nintendo appears to be reviving that past.
• He could be goofy, but not as goofy as Wario, Luigi or Waluigi. Arguably even Yoshi.
• What's wrong with goofy anyway? Smash Bros. IS goofy.
• Toad is worldy reknown and anyone who knows of Waluigi SHOULD know of Toad. They should also know Toad can fight, because it's been shown in new games as well.
• Meowth should of been in Smash64. This has nothing to do with Toad. I just agree with it.

Congratulations; you've made me write out the longest post I've ever made on Smashboards. Give yourself a pat on the back.

 

[EddyBearr]

TO SUMMARIZE:

• Toad has enough to work with, even more than some previous smashers, using attacks that he's used in the past and not stolen off team mates or associates.
• His past shouldn't be ignored just because it's from older games. Especially since Nintendo appears to be reviving that past.
• He could be goofy, but not as goofy as Wario, Luigi or Waluigi. Arguably even Yoshi.
• What's wrong with goofy anyway? Smash Bros. IS goofy.
• Toad is worldy reknown and anyone who knows of Waluigi SHOULD know of Toad. They should also know Toad can fight, because it's been shown in new games as well.
• Meowth should of been in Smash64. This has nothing to do with Toad. I just agree with it.

Congratulations; you've made me write out the longest post I've ever made on Smashboards. Give yourself a pat on the back.

I'm happy I've gotten discussion to be very long-winded, filled to the brim with nuance, information, and variables, and more involved. Better than repeating "Wario's woods plus spores" as the entirety of each comment for 10 pages (hyperbole.)

Gonna try to shorten things up.
Gonna respond to paragraphs with hyphens, first.

-I said I tend to group Mario and it's spin-offs together. DK has differentiated too hard to group with Mario.

-Which is why I don't say that Luigi's speed is something personal to him. You're kinda just helping show that "Toad's increased speed" doesn't really work as a personal trait, given the context of inconsistency.

-Quite legit. Good for Daisy, she's better than I thought.

--I don't cherry pick it. I give a game from 1995 less value than a game from 2008. The target audience largely doesn't remember it as well, so it translates less effectively into a "good game for today's audience." I don't disregard info, I value it and compare it to how valuable other info is. Not all info is created equal, even if of the same topic.
--For my age, I've played at least a mario game a year since I became 8 years old. That's a Mario fan. It's not a "Mario fanboy," or someone Mario obsessed, but I do like Mario quite a bit. I'm a "fan."
--I've seen Toad kick butt in some sports games. The problem is: All he really has to do is kick a ball, or check an opponent.. It's nothing like Link destroying Ganon in a game. It's something that Koopa Troopa can do too.

-I've explained what I mean by "goofy" below.

--1. I would, but people actually support Diskun and etc.. maybe I'll use a "Chu chu" from LoZ:MM?
--2. Speed & power value to Toad mentioned above. It's not as relevant as Toad's "the same" in NSMBWiiU
--3. Mario, Luigi, and Peach get a pass no matter what factor comes up. They aren't examples of the rule not mattering (we know exceptions can exist to the rule, the question is if Toad deserves to be excepted [unless, like Berserker did, you argue it doesn't matter, which I would just call counter-evidentiary.]) Ness is developer's bias, and I think Lucas is going to be cut. Compiling reasons (though, for me, the biggest two are "Franchise doesn't deserve 2" and "They're basically the same thing, at least in a game with such huge differences between characters, even in the same franchise.")
--4. Not all dormancy is created equal. Dormancy of uniqueness from 20 years ago matters less than dormancy of uniqueness from just a few years.
--5. Peach, Ness, Fox get a pass. C. Falcon I've admitted it weird, but maybe it's the "basic fighter" (need more evidence, too open-ended.) Falco is a disappointment (and even Sakurai showed that with his remaking of him in Brawl,) and Wolf created the most disastrous franchise, which is why talk of Wolf getting cut exists (and why I actually think he will get cut. In fact, there lack of personal moveset only compiles to their clone problem, because it's gonna be quite hard to "declone" Falco and Wolf and have them still be "Falco" and "Wolf." So, in other words, your examples of the rule "not being that important" are either extraordinary exceptions (Peach, Fox, Ness,) or things that require more evidence (we dunno how Star Fox is gonna look in SSB4, Mother too) to come to a solid conclusion. C. Falcon needs more evidence to come to a bad conclusion.

-I doubt how "iconic" Toad's supposed Iconic moves. I would just call them (mostly) borderline. There are many Mario fans (myself included) who focus on the big titles, not the sports spin-offs. A character can get off with just borderline moves, if that character needs to be in and doesn't have to prove any moveset potential because the other merits are so overpowering. I don't think this applies to Toad. Toad using Spores like he does with peach's special is ultra-borderline.

-Personally, I think Mario vs Bowser is less of a great battle than Mario vs Luigi. One sibling being "the bad guy".. It's easier to give kids an equal footing, so they don't feel "The other person had what I like!" Basically, Mario vs Luigi > Mario vs Bowser, in terms of multiplayer.



Bullet point respones:

1. No doubt, but the problem is that it's mostly "borderline" moves, and entirely lacking any iconic.
2. His past isn't ignored. His distant past is valued less than him today. I tend to not ignore any factors.
3. You're misinterpreting what I mean by goofy. By goofy when I spoke of Toad, I meant it was "weird." "Something didn't seem right." Luigi's moveset is very goofy, but that's because Luigi is a very goofy guy. Toad is kinda weird, but the attacks he uses wouldn't elicit a response of "oh man, that is SO Toad!" It would elicit a response of, "That's kinda...weird."
4. Goofiness is acceptable if it's pure fun and fits in the context. EX: Goofy (Disney) acting Goofy is perfect. Super serious Vegeta acting Goofy would be terrible.
5. I'd actually argue that Toad is more well-known, but not by much at all. Then again, Koopa Troopa is also superrr well known, same with Dry Bones. This is a given with the Mario Franchise.
6. That's right!

 

[Bowserlick]

Updated Toad Moveset

A quick grappler with powerful throws. Toad is fast, has good rolls, an average side step, and moves with decent to incredible knockback that lack high damage. His jumps are quick, but short (just like a toad). But with his powerful throws, Toad doesn't need his enemies to be sky in high in damage to take them out of the ring.

Mechanic
Crouch: When crouching, the circles on Toad's mushroom head will begin to flash. A jump out of this state will cause Toad to jump straight up with vertical prowess.

Specials
B Spore Flow: Spores begin to flow from Toad's head. Running and jumping around leaves a wake of spores that quickly fade. Walking through the spores give damage to the enemy. Cannot attack in this condition. A press of A or B will end the flowing spores with slight lag before an attack can be performed.

Up B Magic Carpet: A magic carpet appears under Toad and he grabs the front edge. His face is a look of shock. He can freely travel in the air for several seconds. He can perform one air dodge while on his carpet. However, a landed hit on Toad will not cancel the move, but rather would knock him back (although he would only be knocked back half as far when on carpet).

Side B Golden Mushroom(Ground): Takes out a Golden Mushroom and then zooms the length of Fire Fox, can travel up walls. If he hits an opponent, both the opponent and him are knocked back.

Side B Golden Mushroom(Air): Takes out a Golden Mushroom and zooms down diagonally. When he hits the ground he will start running if he has any length left on his special.

Down B Pluck(Ground): Plucks out a Pow Block. Can be thrown. Does little damage if hits an enemy, but sends the enemy downwards a bit with stun, and rolls off. If it hits the ground, a shockwave emerges.

*So if the enemy sees the block coming and tries to jump, the block can hit the enemy, send the enemy back down, hit the floor and create an earthquake for KO potential.

Down B Pluck(Air): Reaches down. If he grabs an opponent, he will hold him above his head. Throws at a diagonal trajectory with a press of A.

Ground Moves
A: Closes eyes, leans back, and throws two quick slaps forward.
A, repeated: Closes eyes, leans back, throws two quick slaps forward, and then slaps in a blur-like fashion.

Dash A: Trips over feet, and bounces off the ground twice as he screams. Both hits knocks opponents away.

Toward A: Lunges in air, head forwards. Lands on stomach after attack, then does a push up back to his feet.

Up A: Jumps slightly upwards, character bounces off his mushroom hat. Good for juggling.

Down A: When crouched, puts one foot forward and slides a small distance. If the opponent has high damage in relation to their weight, they may trip over Toad and land on their back.

Toward Smash: Skids forward a little with his shoes and pushes his enemy as he screams like a girl. Hit opponent flies away in a forward trajectory. Good knockback, low damage.

Down Smash: Flips onto his head and spins with boots sticking out at the side. Can move left to right when doing this move. The more charge, the more movement. Racks up damage. Last spin knocks away.

Smash Up: Plucks a flashing Mario Brothers 2 bomb from the ground and chucks it into the air.

Aerial Moves
Up A: Aerial headbutt, similar to DK's

Down A: Claps shoes together, points toes downward, and spins like a drill. First part hits downward, twirl does damage.

Back A: Turns around in a curled position and rapidly kicks with his boots five times. Last hit has decent knockback.

Forward A: Leans forward, so his whole body is parallel to the floor and pushes. Good knockback, low damage.

Neutral A: Faces screen, does a jig with his boots as his body rotates 360 degrees.

Throws
A: Shin kicks.

Toward Throw and Back Throw: Swings opponent around by their feet. Can move from side to side while spinning. A press of B or A will cause Toad to let go, throwing the opponent. The more spins, the further the enemy goes.

Down Throw: Leaps on top of opponent's head and kicks off. Leave enemy briefly stunned with stars over head if their percentage is high enough, but propels Toad upwards.

Up Throw: Lies down on back and bench presses the opponent upwards into the air as they kick and windmill their arms during the stun.

 

[EddyBearr]

Updated Toad Moveset

Two quick questions/requests:

1. Why did you choose the attacks you did? For each attack, tell me why that attack was chosen. What the source for the move was.
2. After providing a list, would you be willing to let me make a thread doing a thorough analysis of it (in comparison to a moveset I had for a different character) in order to rain on the Toad Parade? This is assuming, of course, I can, and you answering #1 doesn't completely reverse everything I thought I knew about Toad.

 

[Bowserlick]

Sure, it may take a bit of time.

 

[EddyBearr]

Sure, it may take a bit of time.

The more imagery, the better. Any Toad move derived from a game would ideally have a picture, gif, or etc of him doing it.

Looking forward to it. In a perfect world, I'd become a raging Toad supporter after it. In the world I'm anticipating, I'm gonna slice Toad in half with a Clay Spire.

 

[Bowserlick]

Updated Toad Moveset
Explanations in lavender

A quick grappler with powerful throws. Toad is fast, has good rolls, an average side step, and moves with decent to incredible knockback that lack high damage. His jumps are quick, but short (just like a toad). But with his powerful throws, Toad doesn't need his enemies to be sky in high in damage to take them out of the ring.

Toad is the fastest and strongest of the characters in Mario Bros 2. And a good deal of this moveset takes from items and abilities in the game which all characters could use. However, the speed and strength aspect was truly an individual trait of Toad's. As well as the short jumps. This seems to be returning in the newest Mario game. Speed (at least in terms of acceleration) has also been attributed to Toad in the Mario Kart games.


Mechanic
Crouch: When crouching, the circles on Toad's mushroom head will begin to flash. A jump out of this state will cause Toad to jump straight up with vertical prowess.

All characters in SMB2 could do this. However, this was the most useful to Toad because he lacked vertical height more than all the other characters.


Specials
B Spore Flow: Spores begin to flow from Toad's head. Running and jumping around leaves a wake of spores that quickly fade. Walking through the spores give damage to the enemy. Cannot attack in this condition. A press of A or B will end the flowing spores with slight lag before an attack can be performed.

The B move is a nod to Peach's B move and the fact that Toad is a mushroom. Because spores are not actually associated with Toad in his other games, I made this the only spore move. This move combined the Smash Brothers reference to his role as a spore shield with his prowess in covering ground. I think it also squares up with his cowardly nature.

Up B Magic Carpet: A magic carpet appears under Toad and he grabs the front edge. His face is a look of shock. He can freely travel in the air for several seconds. He can perform one air dodge while on his carpet. However, a landed hit on Toad will not cancel the move, but rather would knock him back (although he would only be knocked back half as far when on carpet).

Again this is from SMB2. I did not want to use the jump charge for a special. I wanted it to remain as a mechanic. Plus, I think this move is fitting because it allows Toad a decent recovery to counterbalance his lousy jumps. Yet, on the downside he cannot inflict damage with it. *Plus Toad kinda looks like a cartoon genie with his outfit so the carpet seems to match.

Side B Golden Mushroom(Ground): Takes out a Golden Mushroom and then zooms the length of Fire Fox, can travel up walls. If he hits an opponent, both the opponent and him are knocked back.

Side B Golden Mushroom(Air): Takes out a Golden Mushroom and zooms down diagonally. When he hits the ground he will start running if he has any length left on his special.

This is taken from his Mariokart Double Dash special. Allows him to move even faster. This move is specific to Toad, so it was important to include. It also re-enforces his speed theme in the moveset.

Down B Pluck(Ground): Plucks out a Pow Block. Can be thrown. Does little damage if hits an enemy, but sends the enemy downwards a bit with stun, and rolls off. If it hits the ground, a shockwave emerges.

*So if the enemy sees the block coming and tries to jump, the block can hit the enemy, send the enemy back down, hit the floor and create an earthquake for KO potential.

Down B Pluck(Air): Reaches down. If he grabs an opponent, he will hold him above his head. Throws at a diagonal trajectory with a press of A.

This is a staple from SMB2. Yet I do think it especially fits Toad. He was the character that could pluck items and enemies the fastest because he had the most strength. If the Mariokart re-enforces his speed aspect, this re-enforces his strength aspect.

Ground Moves
A: Closes eyes, leans back, and throws two quick slaps forward.
A, repeated: Closes eyes, leans back, throws two quick slaps forward, and then slaps in a blur-like fashion.
In games where Toad is not playable, Toad and toads are usually portrayed as cowards.

Dash A: Trips over feet, and bounces off the ground twice as he screams. Both hits knocks opponents away.
Again, this fits into Toad's unwillingness to fight.

Toward A: Lunges in air, head forwards. Lands on stomach after attack, then does a push up back to his feet.
Can't deny that Toad as three main bodyparts to work with. The giant head, little hands and his shoes. This is filler, but takes advantage of his largest body part for attacking.

Up A: Jumps slightly upwards, character bounces off his mushroom hat. Good for juggling.
Same point as above. Also, from a gameplay standup this move sets-up for aerial A and Up Smash.

Down A: When crouched, puts one foot forward and slides a small distance. If the opponent has high damage in relation to their weight, they may trip over Toad and land on their back.
Again filler. But I think it is a good visual and takes advantage of Toad's small stature. * Also, a theme of this moveset is that Toad can deliver high Knockback with some moves, but they do not cause much damage. So Toad's moves are split into damaging moves that can't KO well and moves that can KO well, but cannot do much damage. So, if the opponent is high in damage Toad can put them in an unfortunate situation to setup a KOing throw or move.

Toward Smash: Skids forward a little with his shoes and pushes his enemy as he screams like a girl. Hit opponent flies away in a forward trajectory. Good knockback, low damage.
References Toad's cowardly nature as well as his hidden upper body strength.

Down Smash: Flips onto his head and spins with boots sticking out at the side. Can move left to right when doing this move. The more charge, the more movement. Racks up damage. Last spin knocks away.
Filler. Allows Toad to rack up damage. Creative use of his noggin.

Smash Up: Plucks a flashing Mario Brothers 2 bomb from the ground and chucks it into the air.
Reference to SBM2(Mouser fight). Gives Toad a KOing Up Smash. I didn't want all his attacks that target an aerial opponent above him to use his head. Also Toad is the best character at plucking.

Aerial Moves
Up A: Aerial headbutt, similar to DK's
Filler, uses big head.

Down A: Claps shoes together, points toes downward, and spins like a drill. First part hits downward, twirl does damage.
Uses one of Toad's three attacking points (Head, arms, boots). Racks up damage. Filler.

Back A: Turns around in a curled position and rapidly kicks with his boots five times. Last hit has decent knockback.
Same as above.

Forward A: Leans forward, so his whole body is parallel to the floor and pushes. Good knockback, low damage.
Upper body strength reference and kinda rides the cowardly theme. Keeping the enemy away from him.

Neutral A: Faces screen, does a jig with his boots as his body rotates 360 degrees.
I have to get creative with his little boots. He doesn't have legs. Plus, doesn't it seem that Toad would jig?

Throws
A: Shin kicks.
A coward might go for the shin.

Toward Throw and Back Throw: Swings opponent around by their feet. Can move from side to side while spinning. A press of B or A will cause Toad to let go, throwing the opponent. The more spins, the further the enemy goes.
References Mario, Luigi, and Wario's spin throws. But Toad as the potential to throw the enemy even further since has has the upper body strength. (I think even a comment on a Smash trophy mentions Toad's hidden strength).

Down Throw: Leaps on top of opponent's head and kicks off. Leave enemy briefly stunned with stars over head if their percentage is high enough, but propels Toad upwards.
Sets up a plucking situation.

Up Throw: Lies down on back and bench presses the opponent upwards into the air as they kick and windmill their arms during the stun.
Upper Body strength. Bench Press. Makes some sense. Also, references his power.


*********************I am done. Off to get my head buzzed. Have fun*************************

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'm happy I've gotten discussion to be very long-winded, filled to the brim with nuance, information, and variables, and more involved. Better than repeating "Wario's woods plus spores" as the entirety of each comment for 10 pages (hyperbole.)

Gonna try to shorten things up.
Gonna respond to paragraphs with hyphens, first.

-I said I tend to group Mario and it's spin-offs together. DK has differentiated too hard to group with Mario.

-Which is why I don't say that Luigi's speed is something personal to him. You're kinda just helping show that "Toad's increased speed" doesn't really work as a personal trait, given the context of inconsistency.

I...errr...I never said you did group DK with them.

As for the speed thing; it isn't what we associate with Luigi; it's his superior jump. A jump that debuted in SMB2. Toad's always been a fast character in any spinoff that he's appeared in that has different stats for characters. That trait for Toad is like the jump is for Luigi. My point is just because one or two games have Luigi act the same as Mario, it doesn't mean Luigi's special trait isn't his ability to jump higher than his brother.

--I don't cherry pick it. I give a game from 1995 less value than a game from 2008. The target audience largely doesn't remember it as well, so it translates less effectively into a "good game for today's audience." I don't disregard info, I value it and compare it to how valuable other info is. Not all info is created equal, even if of the same topic.

A game which gave Peach her floating ability and her turnip pull. A game which gave Luigi his trademark jump. This games value regarding Smash actually far outstrips something like Mario Sunshine which only gave Mario a move that no one wanted, replacing the far more loved Mario Tornado. I am aware this isn't the game you were referring to, but we've yet to see what affect Galaxy has/will have on Smash 4.
Regardless SMB2 has a lot more Smash value than most other Mario games because it actually tried to showcase differences between each playable Mario character, whilst NSMB and it's ilk have not. It's been used in the past to define Peach and Luigi and therefore is extremely valuable.

--1. I would, but people actually support Diskun and etc.. maybe I'll use a "Chu chu" from LoZ:MM?
--2. Speed & power value to Toad mentioned above. It's not as relevant as Toad's "the same" in NSMBWiiU

1. Fair enough. Chu Chu works.
2. It's as relevent to Toad as being able to float is to Peach, or having a superior jump is to Luigi. All of which debuted in SMB2. So this game is relevant to these characters.

--3. Mario, Luigi, and Peach get a pass no matter what factor comes up. They aren't examples of the rule not mattering (we know exceptions can exist to the rule, the question is if Toad deserves to be excepted [unless, like Berserker did, you argue it doesn't matter, which I would just call counter-evidentiary.]) Ness is developer's bias, and I think Lucas is going to be cut. Compiling reasons (though, for me, the biggest two are "Franchise doesn't deserve 2" and "They're basically the same thing, at least in a game with such huge differences between characters, even in the same franchise.")
--4. Not all dormancy is created equal. Dormancy of uniqueness from 20 years ago matters less than dormancy of uniqueness from just a few years.
--5. Peach, Ness, Fox get a pass. C. Falcon I've admitted it weird, but maybe it's the "basic fighter" (need more evidence, too open-ended.) Falco is a disappointment (and even Sakurai showed that with his remaking of him in Brawl,) and Wolf created the most disastrous franchise, which is why talk of Wolf getting cut exists (and why I actually think he will get cut. In fact, there lack of personal moveset only compiles to their clone problem, because it's gonna be quite hard to "declone" Falco and Wolf and have them still be "Falco" and "Wolf." So, in other words, your examples of the rule "not being that important" are either extraordinary exceptions (Peach, Fox, Ness,) or things that require more evidence (we dunno how Star Fox is gonna look in SSB4, Mother too) to come to a solid conclusion. C. Falcon needs more evidence to come to a bad conclusion.

3. I'm not saying they don't get a free pass; what I'm saying is there's a lot of things within Mario that the brothers and the princess don't touch on, particularly power up wise, which is half the fun in the Mario games. I'm asking if they don't touch on these then why NOT have Toad expand the huge potential from the Marioverse?
4. I agree. It's one of the reasons I can't see F-Zero ever getting a new character. Mario is about as popular as you get however, and we've previously had 5 Mario characters in Melee, I can see them at least returning to this number. No, I'm not counting DK, Wario or Yoshi as this as they are not within the context of Smash Bros.
5. I understand Peach and Fox, but why does Ness get a pass on not using his own moves? He certainly had enough to work with.
Falcon I agree with; too many variables. Falco and Wolf also.
Although if I'm honest; no character should get a free pass in these areas. They've been around decades; and even if it's borderline as you suggest, they should pull their moves from their own games.

-I doubt how "iconic" Toad's supposed Iconic moves. I would just call them (mostly) borderline. There are many Mario fans (myself included) who focus on the big titles, not the sports spin-offs. A character can get off with just borderline moves, if that character needs to be in and doesn't have to prove any moveset potential because the other merits are so overpowering. I don't think this applies to Toad. Toad using Spores like he does with peach's special is ultra-borderline.

Honestly the spores make more sense on Toad than they do as part of Peach's moveset. He basically made up a move for Toad so that he could make up a move for Peach. What, even?

Sometimes a character even having iconic moves doesn't mean they're going to get used:
I don't really see Luigi's iconic moves as Luigi cyclone or his torpedo move. Poltergust is iconic yet is no where to be seen. A green fireball is borderline for me, since his fireballs have never been green in the main games(at least as far as I can remember) but it's a bit of a push.
The hot mess that is Ganondorf. I think 95% of Smash fans agree that there's no excuse as to why Ganondorf wasn't given his iconic attacks.
Just...why, Sakurai?

Bullet point respones:

1. No doubt, but the problem is that it's mostly "borderline" moves, and entirely lacking any iconic.
2. His past isn't ignored. His distant past is valued less than him today. I tend to not ignore any factors.
3. You're misinterpreting what I mean by goofy. By goofy when I spoke of Toad, I meant it was "weird." "Something didn't seem right." Luigi's moveset is very goofy, but that's because Luigi is a very goofy guy. Toad is kinda weird, but the attacks he uses wouldn't elicit a response of "oh man, that is SO Toad!" It would elicit a response of, "That's kinda...weird."
4. Goofiness is acceptable if it's pure fun and fits in the context. EX: Goofy (Disney) acting Goofy is perfect. Super serious Vegeta acting Goofy would be terrible.
5. I'd actually argue that Toad is more well-known, but not by much at all. Then again, Koopa Troopa is also superrr well known, same with Dry Bones. This is a given with the Mario Franchise.
6. That's right!

1. Alright, many here disagree, but fine.
2. His distant past is what helped define Peach and Luigi. It should define Toad as well. Since it's helped those two out I feel it should be valued above any Mario game where both Mario brothers play the exact same.
3. I felt Luigi's torpedo move was weird. I suspect I'm not alone. The run was fine. The torpedo was just 'wut?'
4. Clearly you haven't seen Vegeta in the latest two movies. He's extremely goofy. Because he plays such a straight face all the time when he acts a little silly it's genuinely far funnier than when say; Krillin does it, because we know it's killing Vegeta inside to act so ridiculous. Comedy is pain. This isn't really relevent, but I'd recommend watching "Battle of the Gods" and "Son Goku and Friends Returns".
5. Toad's more recognised than Koopa Troopa even if it's not by much. I'm certain he's more recognised than Dry Bones. Difference is Toad's also been playable in the main Mario games.
6. LOOKS LIKE YOSHIANDTOAD IS BLASTING OFF AGAIN.

@Bowserlick: Take up the challenge. Me and Eddy can probably do this for all eternity.

Or until the game comes out.

Or until one of us gets bored.

Third option is most likely.

 

[EddyBearr]

I...errr...I never said you did group DK with them.

Just saying for the sake of saying.

As for the speed thing; it isn't what we associate with Luigi; it's his superior jump. A jump that debuted in SMB2. Toad's always been a fast character in any spinoff that he's appeared in that has different stats for characters. That trait for Toad is like the jump is for Luigi. My point is just because one or two games have Luigi act the same as Mario, it doesn't mean Luigi's special trait isn't his ability to jump higher than his brother.

While it explains where Luigi jumps higher, there's a huge problem here. There's a difference between trying to declone a clone who has to be in the game, and using a borderline example (an old example,) and trying to add a completely new character, while using the most borderline option (A super old game at this point)

A game which gave Peach her floating ability and her turnip pull. A game which gave Luigi his trademark jump. This games value regarding Smash actually far outstrips something like Mario Sunshine which only gave Mario a move that no one wanted, replacing the far more loved Mario Tornado. I am aware this isn't the game you were referring to, but we've yet to see what affect Galaxy has/will have on Smash 4.

I really don't think you can say that, especially since Mario is a veteran. Mario in SSB64 was defined from Mario in SM64 (and some things from other games.) Mario in SSBM was defined by mario in SSB64. Mario in SSBB was defined by Mario in SSBM (except Fludd added on.)

Regardless SMB2 has a lot more Smash value than most other Mario games because it actually tried to showcase differences between each playable Mario character, whilst NSMB and it's ilk have not. It's been used in the past to define Peach and Luigi and therefore is extremely valuable.

That's pushing it superbly, because +2 speed -2 jump +2 power, isn't exactly a noteworthy difference. It's something you can justify using in a character, but it such small peas that it doesn't help a character get in at all, because it's not a unique characteristic.
Similarly, every Mario game has set out differences in characters (Mario vs Luigi only recently.) Every Mario game going back showed that Bowser was the "big slow spiky" fire breather.

With Toad, you're looking for very small things (stats in a really old game) and saying that is enough of a "unique thing" to justify him being a character.

I am not saying you can't use it for Toad. I'm saying that it's not big enough to make him have good "moveset potential." It's something small he can use and justify, but it's nothing so big, so iconic, so characteristic, and so unique, that makes moveset a strength for him. Indeed, his moveset potential is still so small, that it hurts his chances.

2. It's as relevent to Toad as being able to float is to Peach, or having a superior jump is to Luigi. All of which debuted in SMB2. So this game is relevant to these characters.

I agree, and I'd say that Peach floating and Luigi jumping higher is scraping a lower part of the barrel for unique character traits. The difference is, it was justified because they had to be in the game, and they had to have a moveset. Toad has not been justified. Toad has not been excused to push all the way back to "Wario's woods" for inspiration.
The fact that SMB2 is ancient, and the new game might be too new, only makes it worse for Toad, because this potential went even further in the movepool.

3. I'm not saying they don't get a free pass; what I'm saying is there's a lot of things within Mario that the brothers and the princess don't touch on, particularly power up wise, which is half the fun in the Mario games. I'm asking if they don't touch on these then why NOT have Toad expand the huge potential from the Marioverse?

I've acknowledged that it can work and can be an option. What I am saying is that having to stoop so low hurts their moveset potential.

You don't need to convince me that Toad can be "smaller and stronger." You need to convince me that Toad should be given an excuse like Luigi and Peach did.

4. I agree. It's one of the reasons I can't see F-Zero ever getting a new character. Mario is about as popular as you get however, and we've previously had 5 Mario characters in Melee, I can see them at least returning to this number. No, I'm not counting DK, Wario or Yoshi as this as they are not within the context of Smash Bros.

I could see 6 working as well.

5. I understand Peach and Fox, but why does Ness get a pass on not using his own moves? He certainly had enough to work with.

Only thing I could thing of is PAL wanting to put "A little bit of all their characters" into Ness. Other than that, I can't tell you.

Although if I'm honest; no character should get a free pass in these areas. They've been around decades; and even if it's borderline as you suggest, they should pull their moves from their own games.

When I say "free pass," I don't mean "It's not a factor." I'm simply referring to their other factors getting them into the game without needing to go further.

For instance, if 100% is perfect, and 60% is required, then we might be able to say that Pikachu got all the way up to the 90%'s, and maybe Luigi got up to like 70% (just an example, idk what I'd grade them at.)

Honestly the spores make more sense on Toad than they do as part of Peach's moveset. He basically made up a move for Toad so that he could make up a move for Peach. What, even?

Toad has regularly been a "guard" for Peach.

Sometimes a character even having iconic moves doesn't mean they're going to get used:
I don't really see Luigi's iconic moves as Luigi cyclone or his torpedo move. Poltergust is iconic yet is no where to be seen. A green fireball is borderline for me, since his fireballs have never been green in the main games(at least as far as I can remember) but it's a bit of a push.
The hot mess that is Ganondorf. I think 95% of Smash fans agree that there's no excuse as to why Ganondorf wasn't given his iconic attacks.
Just...why, Sakurai?

I don't have many major disagreements. Perhaps some plausible explanations:
1. G-Dorf: Sakurai said that Ganondorf getting in was "lucky." He said he was a last minute clone.
2. Luigi not getting his vacuum in SSBB might have been due to Space Emissary. It's widely speculated and hoped-for, especially with Luigi's Mansion 2 and the Luigi's Mansion game in NintendoLand, that Luigi will get his Poltergeist.

I truly think this Smash game is going to be he defining game of the series. The first one was broke, the second one was Clone heavy because Sakurai's weird, and the third one was Space Emissary'd.

2. His distant past is what helped define Peach and Luigi. It should define Toad as well. Since it's helped those two out I feel it should be valued above any Mario game where both Mario brothers play the exact same.

If Toad gets in, based on what I've seen, those are his best options, and 100% should get used. Unfortunately, those options are very sub-par. Toad's character potential is not going to come from Moveset potential (unlike Isaac). I need to be convinced that Toad's other factors, such was appeal, how iconic he is, how he would "seem to work as a fighter," how his franchise overall is doing, and etc would get him up to "60%" with "moveset potential" hurting him to an extent.

3. I felt Luigi's torpedo move was weird. I suspect I'm not alone. The run was fine. The torpedo was just 'wut?'

100% agree. Sakurai did like clones at the time though, and the misfire is fun. I think we can agree it "ended up working out," but the grounds for using it as a move is really questionable.
That is unless, of course, Sakurai had the foresight to predict that "it would work out," just like Falcon Punch worked out. If that's the case, Sakurai is genius.

4. Clearly you haven't seen Vegeta in the latest two movies. He's extremely goofy. Because he plays such a straight face all the time when he acts a little silly it's genuinely far funnier than when say; Krillin does it, because we know it's killing Vegeta inside to act so ridiculous. Comedy is pain. This isn't really relevent, but I'd recommend watching "Battle of the Gods" and "Son Goku and Friends Returns".

Vegeta for Space Emissary 2.

5. Toad's more recognised than Koopa Troopa even if it's not by much. I'm certain he's more recognised than Dry Bones. Difference is Toad's also been playable in the main Mario games.

Agreed. Toad > Koopa Troopa in almost all factors. Koopa Troopa > Toad in fighter potential (by a longshot I might say, mostly due to color gimmicks.)

6. LOOKS LIKE YOSHIANDTOAD IS BLASTING OFF AGAIN.

@Bowserlick: Take up the challenge. Me and Eddy can probably do this for all eternity.

Or until the game comes out.

Or until one of us gets bored.

Third option is most likely.

Fite me irl ill half-flat u 10-0 go to NOTHIN!!

 

[YoshiandToad]

Just saying for the sake of saying.


While it explains where Luigi jumps higher, there's a huge problem here. There's a difference between trying to declone a clone who has to be in the game, and using a borderline example (an old example,) and trying to add a completely new character, while using the most borderline option (A super old game at this point)

Again, age of the game doesn't matter, and you have no real argument as to why it should. Just saying it doesn't isn't the same as it not being important. Especially since it's been used to make Luigi's larger jump and Peach's floating abilities canon. Toad is fast and strong, and that's an established fact. This is not a spinoff non canon game, this is officially recognised by Nintendo and Sakurai himself since it's even stated in Toad's trophy information about his power, and Super Mario 3D World is once again making Toad the fastest fella in Mario.

I really don't think you can say that, especially since Mario is a veteran. Mario in SSB64 was defined from Mario in SM64 (and some things from other games.) Mario in SSBM was defined by mario in SSB64. Mario in SSBB was defined by Mario in SSBM (except Fludd added on.)

I can and I did. Mario is the all around character. This has been established in all Mario games. Melee added Super Mario World's Cape and Brawl added Super Mario Sunshine's FLUDD.
Super Mario Bros. 2 meanwhile established canon abilities for Peach, Luigi and Toad and was the first time differences between the Mario characters was established.

It is supremely important, and not just to Toad; to Peach and Luigi too.

That's pushing it superbly, because +2 speed -2 jump +2 power, isn't exactly a noteworthy difference. It's something you can justify using in a character, but it such small peas that it doesn't help a character get in at all, because it's not a unique characteristic.
Similarly, every Mario game has set out differences in characters (Mario vs Luigi only recently.) Every Mario game going back showed that Bowser was the "big slow spiky" fire breather.

Except it isn't pushing it. Stats matter in this game. Why do you think Marth was more popular than Roy? Why do you think Captain Falcon was more popular than Ganondorf? Toad's super strength allows him to pick up enemies and carry them above his head DK style. A DK grab with superior speed? That will mess players up.

That said, I agree stats alone shouldn't aid a character. Toad was the fourth most wanted Mario newcomer after Bowser(in), Peach(in) and Wario(in). Being the most requested character from the most popular franchise is kind of a big deal.

With Toad, you're looking for very small things (stats in a really old game) and saying that is enough of a "unique thing" to justify him being a character.

I am not saying you can't use it for Toad. I'm saying that it's not big enough to make him have good "moveset potential." It's something small he can use and justify, but it's nothing so big, so iconic, so characteristic, and so unique, that makes moveset a strength for him. Indeed, his moveset potential is still so small, that it hurts his chances.

Again, that really old game defined Luigi and Peach's unique characteristics as it did Toad's. Not sure why you're so against it. Perhaps because it's counter productive to your point?

I think Toad's possible moveset potential has been covered everywhere else, including the spores since between Smash and Sports Mix this seems to be a unique ability the toads have. Toad by this point has used ice flowers, mushroom power ups and even turnips as much as Bowser Jr. has used his trademark Magic Paintbrush; aka, it appeared in a single main game and a bunch of spinoffs. If we're counting the magic paintbrush, then *ahem* brushing aside Toad's use of poison mushroom, spores or golden mushroom is unfair bias.

Diddy Kong throws banana peels. Why can't Toad use items from the games that he uses on a regular basis?

I agree, and I'd say that Peach floating and Luigi jumping higher is scraping a lower part of the barrel for unique character traits. The difference is, it was justified because they had to be in the game, and they had to have a moveset. Toad has not been justified. Toad has not been excused to push all the way back to "Wario's woods" for inspiration.
The fact that SMB2 is ancient, and the new game might be too new, only makes it worse for Toad, because this potential went even further in the movepool.

Actually I don't think being able to float or jump higher is scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of Smash Bros; a game which relies on movement and recovery.

I don't know whether you've noticed recently but Toad is being pushed quite a lot by Nintendo. Obviously 3DWorld may be too new, but Nintendo obviously thinks enough of the character to keep throwing him in playable roles. There are other characters that could fit the role, but they choose Toad. Perhaps because he's vastly different from the Mario Brothers, or perhaps because they realise he's often well received. Except on Smashboards apparently.

I've acknowledged that it can work and can be an option. What I am saying is that having to stoop so low hurts their moveset potential.

Again, less has been used for movesets in the past. Toad at least has enough history to draw from to create a unique moveset.

You don't need to convince me that Toad can be "smaller and stronger." You need to convince me that Toad should be given an excuse like Luigi and Peach did.

Most popular Mario character requested for Smash, not currently in Smash. Mario is the most popular franchise and casuals and gamers like it alike.

Not including some kind of Mario character would be pretty stupid considering it's importance and popularity. You could argue no Mario character was added in Brawl, but as you already stated you classify Wario as a Mario character.

I could see 6 working as well.

Only thing I could thing of is PAL wanting to put "A little bit of all their characters" into Ness. Other than that, I can't tell you.

No disagreements to be found here.

When I say "free pass," I don't mean "It's not a factor." I'm simply referring to their other factors getting them into the game without needing to go further.

For instance, if 100% is perfect, and 60% is required, then we might be able to say that Pikachu got all the way up to the 90%'s, and maybe Luigi got up to like 70% (just an example, idk what I'd grade them at.)

Not sure what those made up stats are supposed to indicate to be honest.

Toad has regularly been a "guard" for Peach.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. GET OFF THE STAGE.

If that's the reason then THAT'S scraping the bottom of the character barrel if Peach doesn't have enough on her own she has to rely on a lame joke to get a moveset.

I don't have many major disagreements. Perhaps some plausible explanations:
1. G-Dorf: Sakurai said that Ganondorf getting in was "lucky." He said he was a last minute clone.
2. Luigi not getting his vacuum in SSBB might have been due to Space Emissary. It's widely speculated and hoped-for, especially with Luigi's Mansion 2 and the Luigi's Mansion game in NintendoLand, that Luigi will get his Poltergeist.

Why would the SSE stop Luigi from using his vacuum? It let Mario use his one time item. Not sure what you mean here.

If Toad gets in, based on what I've seen, those are his best options, and 100% should get used. Unfortunately, those options are very sub-par. Toad's character potential is not going to come from Moveset potential (unlike Isaac). I need to be convinced that Toad's other factors, such was appeal, how iconic he is, how he would "seem to work as a fighter," how his franchise overall is doing, and etc would get him up to "60%" with "moveset potential" hurting him to an extent.

His appeal and iconic status:

Spoiler

From Wikipedia:
Since his debut in Super Mario Bros., Toad has been met with mostly positive reception. As a character who appears frequently in the series, Toad is considered to be one of the major Mario franchise characters.[40] He has appeared in much of the Mario merchandise in products ranging from toys to plushies and keychains,[41] and is featured in Nintendo's board games such as being on the protagonist side in a Mario themed chess set[42] and being a purchasable character in a Nintendo-themed monopoly game. In Animal Crossing: City Folk, Toad's hat is available after getting 3000 points in Tom Nook's Point Tracking system.[43] The American Club Nintendo website currently offers a special reward featuring Toad and some other major Mario characters in a folder set reward named as the "Toad & Friends Set with Bookmarks".[44] The quote repeated by the Toads in Super Mario Bros., "Thank you Mario! But our Princess is in another castle!", was ranked one of the most repeated video game quotes.[45] Toad makes a cameo appearance in the Wii U version of Scribblenauts Unlimitedas a guest character from Nintendo's Super Mario series.[46] A costume of Toad is also one of the exclusive Nintendo character costumes available to be equipped to various characters in the Wii U version of Tekken Tag Tournament 2.[47]
Toad ranked in the seventh slot onGameDaily's top 10 Nintendo characters that deserve their own games list; the site explained that he has a strong appeal that Nintendo has yet to tap into.[48]GameDaily also listed the "neglected guy" on its list of top 25 video game archetypes, listing Toad as an example.[49]Toad is listed as number two in the most neglected Mario Bros. characters list as he has been described by the site to have been ignored by Nintendo for quite a while due to his lack of starring roles in the more recent games.[50]IGNeditorMatt Casamassinacriticized Nintendo for including the two generic Toads over more notable characters (including Toad himself) in theMarioseries forNew Super Mario Bros. Wii, arguing that the developers were being lazy to not include other characters because the Toads were easier to make.[6]IGN also listed Toad as one of the top 10 characters needing a spin-off.[51]In anOriconpoll conducted inJapanfrom 2008, Toad was voted as the eighth most popular video game character in Japan.[52]Another poll (of over 1000 votes) conducted in Japan by NintendoWorldReport in concern to Japan's favorite Mario Kart racers listed Toad as the second most favorite Mario Kart racer in the country (only being beaten by Yoshi).[53]Toad has also been credited for being one of the celebrated characters in the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Super Mario Bros. games.[54]MTV, when commenting on the wackiness ofSuper Mario 2(Super Mario Bros. 2), called Toad "so awesome".[55]UGO.comlisted Toad on their list of "The Cutest Video Game Characters," stating "Once you get over his misleading name, you’ll find Toad to be quite the adorable mushroom."[56]

Gameplay wise: Bowserlick's idea of a speedy grappler that can run circles around characters but with poor recovery and light weight makes him an ideal high risk, high reward playstyle character. With his speed he could easily get into other fighters faces and be a persistent threat even if he didn't have a projectile.
Not sure if you've ever played it, but think of Toad like Scout from Team Fortress 2 without the double jump; he has the power and the speed and excels at close range combat but also easy to kill if you manage to land a decent hit.
Can have a counter, can have a fantastic grab game. I wouldn't particularly want him to have a great recovery allowing for balance of Toad and stopping him from being broken.

Not sure what that random percentage is for again. It doesn't seem to be telling us anything. 60% of what?

100% agree. Sakurai did like clones at the time though, and the misfire is fun. I think we can agree it "ended up working out," but the grounds for using it as a move is really questionable.
That is unless, of course, Sakurai had the foresight to predict that "it would work out," just like Falcon Punch worked out. If that's the case, Sakurai is genius.

Vegeta for Space Emissary 2.

Agreed. Toad > Koopa Troopa in almost all factors. Koopa Troopa > Toad in fighter potential (by a longshot I might say, mostly due to color gimmicks.)

"It would work out" is kind of a lame argument. I could of just said Toad would work out by that logic rather than attempt to point out Toad's merits and importance to the Mario series and thus Nintendo.

I disagree on Koopa Troopa having more potential than Toad, since his proposed moves are as subjective(if not more) as you claim Toad's are. We have never seen a Koopa Troopa's shell alter colour and ability within the games, or even the spinoffs.

Fite me irl ill half-flat u 10-0 go to NOTHIN!!

I will fight you on the Peach and Delfino beaches. I will fight you on the Pilotwings landing strip. I will fight you on the Stardust Fields and Fortune Street. I will fight you on the Desert Hills. I will never surrender.

And if, which for a moment I do not believe, my love of Toad or others here should falter, then the Toad parade both here and around the world, beloved with the mushroom man, would carry on the struggle, until, in Sakurai's good time, Smash Bros., with all it's ability to bring joy and wonder, steps forth to the rescue and liberates Toad from Peach B move to playable.

-WinsToad Churchill.

 

[Arcadenik]

Koopa Troopa's shell changed its colors only in Super Mario World. He cannot have that trait in Smash because the game is too old. Since Toad's traits are back in Super Mario 3D World and that game is relevant and recent, he can have his traits.

 

[Gene]

Since Toad is the fastest runner in Super Mario 3d World does that make him Sonic?

 

[YoshiandToad]

Since Toad is the fastest runner in Super Mario 3d World does that make him Sonic?

Well he is BLUE now. HMMMM.

 

[Arcadenik]

I can see it now.... Picture it, a new SSB4 trailer with Sonic and Captain Falcon having a foot race... They are tied so far... They are getting closer to the finish line... Then suddenly Toad speeds past them and wins the race... Then they zoom to Toad and it reads "Toad muscles the race"... Hinting on his superhuman strength and speed.

 

[EddyBearr]

Again, age of the game doesn't matter, and you have no real argument as to why it should. Just saying it doesn't isn't the same as it not being important. Especially since it's been used to make Luigi's larger jump and Peach's floating abilities canon. Toad is fast and strong, and that's an established fact. This is not a spinoff non canon game, this is officially recognised by Nintendo and Sakurai himself since it's even stated in Toad's trophy information about his power, and Super Mario 3D World is once again making Toad the fastest fella in Mario.

I have one exceedingly obvious argument as to why it should: It increases the chance a customer will recognize moves.

To use myself as an example again, when I saw that Mario used the same dash attack and downsmash as from SM64 (or when I realized it,) my level of respect for the game and developer's went up significantly. It makes me look at Smash bros and say, "dang. This is a masterpiece." It makes me have more faith in the official creation, and less faith in "inspired works" like "Air Dash Online." This directly translates into more revenue because less interest in competition = more interest in your own.

It of course matters, and it can of course be used, but it's simply not as stellar as Toad being fast.

Again, with SM3DW, it's two assumptions. 1: His speed/power is repeated (it can always change,) and 2: Sakurai didn't make up his mind before it was announced. Many little assumptions as well, not worth listing.

I can and I did. Mario is the all around character. This has been established in all Mario games. Melee added Super Mario World's Cape and Brawl added Super Mario Sunshine's FLUDD.
Super Mario Bros. 2 meanwhile established canon abilities for Peach, Luigi and Toad and was the first time differences between the Mario characters was established.

Mario getting his cape in Brawl is an example not of the cape being just as important as recent information, but rather an example of older information being a viable option. Why did Sakurai pick FLUDD as opposed to any of his power-ups (and there are so many) from older games? Partially because it was more recent, thus easier for players to get excited about it.

It is supremely important, and not just to Toad; to Peach and Luigi too.

I'd call "iconic moves" "supremely important." I'd call personal moves" a "good job, Sakurai!" I'd call borderline, "not bad, Sakurai. That's works pretty well." Generic/practical: "Meh, whatever." Theoretical: "wtf? Dumb."

I think you're over-emphasizing how valuable "+2 speed +2 strength" is in an old game, exceedingly heavily, just to make it seem like Toad really has something amazing going for him. He doesn't. He has an option that can work, and make folks say "not bad."

Except it isn't pushing it. Stats matter in this game. Why do you think Marth was more popular than Roy? Why do you think Captain Falcon was more popular than Ganondorf? Toad's super strength allows him to pick up enemies and carry them above his head DK style. A DK grab with superior speed? That will mess players up.

Of course stats matter in this game, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about whether or not his +2speed/etc stats give him "good moveset potential." I'd just flat out call that nonsense. It's something viable, something that can work, and something that's way better than "let's make him slow because derp," but it's nothing like Isaac's "spire" or etc.

That said, I agree stats alone shouldn't aid a character. Toad was the fourth most wanted Mario newcomer after Bowser(in), Peach(in) and Wario(in). Being the most requested character from the most popular franchise is kind of a big deal.

You're living in the past. Toad was top interest in 2010 - to early 2012, but the market which has dominated since mid-2012 and all of 2013, aka the fan demand during the time in which Sakurai has been working on characters (he said specifically he was doing nothing with SSB4 until Kid Icarus was done. That he was dedicated himself to KI:U) has shown something far different.

Late 2012: Waluigi (588), Bowser Jr. (551), Toad (337)
2013/current: Bowser Jr. (721) Waluigi (588) Toad (411)

Not only is Toad not the "most wanted Mario Newcomer" (atm) but he's 3rd, by a significant margin. If you include Geno and Paper Mario, he's 4th in both he two most recent polls.

Above that, I'd say it's intuitive to say that casuals are more likely to find this poll or SmashBoards after SSB4 was announced as planned than during mid-2010 or 2011.

Again, that really old game defined Luigi and Peach's unique characteristics as it did Toad's. Not sure why you're so against it. Perhaps because it's counter productive to your point?

I'm not against it. I said that if Toad gets in, then they should absolutely go into his character. I've said, however, that these stats mean far less than recent info, not just for Toad, but also for Peach and Luigi. I'm asking if Toad has other factor's that add enough to him to give him a "passing grade" like Peach and Luigi did, despite his pretty poor moveset potential.

I think Toad's possible moveset potential has been covered everywhere else, including the spores since between Smash and Sports Mix this seems to be a unique ability the toads have. Toad by this point has used ice flowers, mushroom power ups and even turnips as much as Bowser Jr. has used his trademark Magic Paintbrush; aka, it appeared in a single main game and a bunch of spinoffs. If we're counting the magic paintbrush, then *ahem* brushing aside Toad's use of poison mushroom, spores or golden mushroom is unfair bias.

Yes, but I've said over-and-over: most of it is borderline or practical. Very little of it is personal/just toad, and absolutely none of it is iconic in the same way as FLUDD, Peanut Popgun, or Bowser's Fire. Above all that, the only things that are personal/just Toad are:
1. Some character stats form an old game. "110% speed" is nothing like Sonic's "34h37479839i24932% speed. It's not all that special, it's just a slight boost that you really have to focus on to realize very much, let alone haveit stuck with you.
2. Wario's Woods. Ain't nobody know what wario's woods is, and it was 30 years ago.

Toad's speed isn't even as big a factor to his character DK's speed. DK's speed is very well known, because he's bigger, faster, and stronger too. This sticks with DK for folks, since a heavyweight being moderately fast is counter-intuitive. Toad doesn't even have that.

Diddy Kong throws banana peels. Why can't Toad use items from the games that he uses on a regular basis?

I hate repeating myself. I've said he can. I've said it's better if it's more personal than that. Diddy Kong's dash attack is from DK64, and I could easily list more. For DK64 players, Diddy Kong's jetpack & peanut gun are iconic of him.

Actually I don't think being able to float or jump higher is scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of Smash Bros; a game which relies on movement and recovery.

It's not about playstyle. It obviously would be a huge factor in a match between M2K and Mango.
But it really isn't about playstyle. Whether diddy kong's dash attack lasted 60 frames or 80 frames, while this has a gargantuan effect on his playstyle, it has almost no effect on folks looking at Diddy Kong's dash attack and saying, "DK64! Nice!"

I don't know whether you've noticed recently but Toad is being pushed quite a lot by Nintendo. Obviously 3DWorld may be too new, but Nintendo obviously thinks enough of the character to keep throwing him in playable roles. There are other characters that could fit the role, but they choose Toad. Perhaps because he's vastly different from the Mario Brothers, or perhaps because they realise he's often well received. Except on Smashboards apparently.

Nintendo has also been pushing Bowser Jr. as well. And I think their choosing Toad as an homage to the fact that Toad would be the next playable character. He's the next "iconic good-guy" that's strictly mario (EX: Yoshi branched out.) Koopa Troopa, Shy Guy.. Can't be trusted. To be honest, I think Toad is only in NSMBWiiU because "it works, it's the best option, and we need to find 2 more players to fit this 4-player game." With SM3DW, it might just be an homage to roots, and I don't think they're bringing back the old game just because it has Toad, or that even it's much of a factor.

Again, less has been used for movesets in the past. Toad at least has enough history to draw from to create a unique moveset.

Less than has been used for extraordinary exceptions.

I'll ask again: What makes Toad an extraordinary exception?

Most popular Mario character requested for Smash, not currently in Smash. Mario is the most popular franchise and casuals and gamers like it alike.

Bowser Jr. is* Toad is not the most popular. You're using outdated information. Even Waluigi outpaces him atm (in terms of wanting them in Smash.) Folks definitely "like" Toad more than Waluigi, but not necessarily as a Smash character.

Not including some kind of Mario character would be pretty stupid considering it's importance and popularity. You could argue no Mario character was added in Brawl, but as you already stated you classify Wario as a Mario character.

This is why I think Bowser Jr. is quite likely, and that Waluigi is 50-50.

Not sure what those made up stats are supposed to indicate to be honest.

Imagine you're taking a class, and you need to pass the class. 30% of your grade is lab work, 50% is exams, 10% is quizzes, and 10% is homework. You must get 60% to pass.Now imagine if Smash characters must get 60% out of 100% possible to pass. (This is super oversimplified.)
People wanting you in is like 30%. Moveset potential is 30%. Bringing something unique to Smash is 20%. Helping to make the roster look good when its all put together is 20%.

Toad has decent support, so let's give him a 20% (Mewtwo probably like 27%.)
Toad's moveset potential is pretty horrendous. Probably like 5-10% tops.
Toad's uniqueness, because he's lacking a truly unique trait

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. GET OFF THE STAGE.

If that's the reason then THAT'S scraping the bottom of the character barrel if Peach doesn't have enough on her own she has to rely on a lame joke to get a moveset.

I actually completely agree. Peach is Peach, so she was an exception. She "gets a pass" on getting like 15% on lab work because she got 45% from tests, 10% from quizzes, and 10% on homework.

Why would the SSE stop Luigi from using his vacuum? It let Mario use his one time item. Not sure what you mean here.

SSE took up so much time. Like I said, I think SSB4 will be the defining smash game for what traits matter.

His appeal and iconic status:

I have never denied it. Unfortunately, Bowser Jr is bigger, and Waluigi is bigger as a Smash prospect. Koopa Troopa is also quite popular nowadays, but nowhere near Toad.

Gameplay wise: Bowserlick's idea of a speedy grappler that can run circles around characters but with poor recovery and light weight makes him an ideal high risk, high reward playstyle character. With his speed he could easily get into other fighters faces and be a persistent threat even if he didn't have a projectile.
Not sure if you've ever played it, but think of Toad like Scout from Team Fortress 2 without the double jump; he has the power and the speed and excels at close range combat but also easy to kill if you manage to land a decent hit.
Can have a counter, can have a fantastic grab game. I wouldn't particularly want him to have a great recovery allowing for balance of Toad and stopping him from being broken.

We're not trying to please Mew2King and Axe. We're trying to please Semi-casual players. You can make any character a 'high-risk, high-reward" character. You can change the frames, hitboxes, lag time, knockback, and etc. for any character. Toad's justification is hardly much of anything, nothing like the electric type being fast (always, with many fast attacks learned, many references, etc.)

"It would work out" is kind of a lame argument. I could of just said Toad would work out by that logic rather than attempt to point out Toad's merits and importance to the Mario series and thus Nintendo.

I know. I wasn't really trying to say anything, just throwing out alternate possibilities.
Anything can work out, which makes it never be an argument. I wasn't hoping to make it one.

I disagree on Koopa Troopa having more potential than Toad, since his proposed moves are as subjective(if not more) as you claim Toad's are. We have never seen a Koopa Troopa's shell alter colour and ability within the games, or even the spinoffs.

Have...have you never played Super Mario World? Koopa Troopa regularly leaves his shell, flies with capes of yellow and flashing colors, hops into different shells to change his behavior, kicks [shells], and etc. Blue shell makes him behave like a red shell would, but Blue has been associated due to Yoshi with flying, red shell with fire. Green shell is "basic" shell and he's mindless with it. He hops into yellow shell, he starts flashing colors, is almost entirely impervious, and is "Super strong." Simultaneously, due to Yoshi, it's associated with extremely heavy weight and stomping.

This is all just from one game, there's probably more in different games. This is more than Toad has ever done, based on what you've provided for me. The reason it's more than Toad has ever done is because this is a Koopa Troopa thing. You don't see Goombas doing this, or Bob-Ombs. With almost everything Toad has done, you can also see Mario or Luigi do it, or almost any other character.

Koopa Troopa's shell changed its colors only in Super Mario World. He cannot have that trait in Smash because the game is too old. Since Toad's traits are back in Super Mario 3D World and that game is relevant and recent, he can have his traits.

SMW has been remade in memorable history. SM3DW has not, and may be too new. Above that, SMW isn't as old as SMB2.

I agree that Koopa's moveset potential isn't as solid due to age. It's just simply not nearly as bad as Toad's.

 

[Arcadenik]

SMW has been remade in memorable history. SM3DW has not, and may be too new. Above that, SMW isn't as old as SMB2.

I agree that Koopa's moveset potential isn't as solid due to age. It's just simply not nearly as bad as Toad's.

SMB2 was remade too... Super Mario All-Stars for the SNES (1993), Super Mario Advance for the GBA (2001), and Super Mario All-Stars 25th Anniversary for the Wii (2010).

It had more ports than Super Mario World did... Virtual Console for the Wii (2007), for the 3DS (2012), and for the Wii U (2013). Super Mario World is only missing the 3DS port.

 

[Pacack]

That ridiculously beautiful argument for Toad.

Well done, sir! Well done! I could not have possibly hoped to say it better myself.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I have one exceedingly obvious argument as to why it should: It increases the chance a customer will recognize moves.

To use myself as an example again, when I saw that Mario used the same dash attack and downsmash as from SM64 (or when I realized it,) my level of respect for the game and developer's went up significantly. It makes me look at Smash bros and say, "dang. This is a masterpiece." It makes me have more faith in the official creation, and less faith in "inspired works" like "Air Dash Online." This directly translates into more revenue because less interest in competition = more interest in your own.

Know what my first Mario game was? SMB2. I remember freaking out when Peach was given her floating ability and the veg pluck. Although it always struck me as odd since she was canonically the worst at pulling up veggies.

Either way; subjective to what you grew up with at best.

Again, with SM3DW, it's two assumptions. 1: His speed/power is repeated (it can always change,) and 2: Sakurai didn't make up his mind before it was announced. Many little assumptions as well, not worth listing.

1. Was already stated to be true at E3. Faster speed, crappier jumps.
2. I'm fairly sure that Nintendo would be capable of telling Sakurai what was happening in their biggest franchise. Again, this is an assumption, but it'd be an assumption to suggest he didn't as well. Neither of us will get anywhere with this.

Mario getting his cape in Brawl is an example not of the cape being just as important as recent information, but rather an example of older information being a viable option. Why did Sakurai pick FLUDD as opposed to any of his power-ups (and there are so many) from older games? Partially because it was more recent, thus easier for players to get excited about it.

I'm guessing you meant cape in Melee. FLUDD wasn't greated with enjoyment at all. A lot of people wondered why they replaced the arguably more iconic spin with a one time gimmick. Then they questioned it even more when Poltergust wasn't revealed for Luigi.

I'd call "iconic moves" "supremely important." I'd call personal moves" a "good job, Sakurai!" I'd call borderline, "not bad, Sakurai. That's works pretty well." Generic/practical: "Meh, whatever." Theoretical: "wtf? Dumb."

I think you're over-emphasizing how valuable "+2 speed +2 strength" is in an old game, exceedingly heavily, just to make it seem like Toad really has something amazing going for him. He doesn't. He has an option that can work, and make folks say "not bad."

Fair enough, perhaps I am. He's still had the largest impact on the series over the years.

Of course stats matter in this game, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about whether or not his +2speed/etc stats give him "good moveset potential." I'd just flat out call that nonsense. It's something viable, something that can work, and something that's way better than "let's make him slow because derp," but it's nothing like Isaac's "spire" or etc.

Of course Isaac has more moveset potential; he's the protagonist in a RPG with psynergy powers.

Is he more important that Toad?
Maybe. He's the main character on an unrepped franchise and has tons of moveset potential.

But if that point about games being too old=missed target audience(an argument which I find weak considering Mario is for all ages, and I'm pretty sure older fans will still be buying Smash and Mario into and past their primes) then Isaac is ****ed with this logic, or at the very least these young gamers may be used to Matthew more than Isaac.

You're living in the past. Toad was top interest in 2010 - to early 2012, but the market which has dominated since mid-2012 and all of 2013, aka the fan demand during the time in which Sakurai has been working on characters (he said specifically he was doing nothing with SSB4 until Kid Icarus was done. That he was dedicated himself to KI:U) has shown something far different.

Late 2012: Waluigi (588), Bowser Jr. (551), Toad (337)
2013/current: Bowser Jr. (721) Waluigi (588) Toad (411)

Not only is Toad not the "most wanted Mario Newcomer" (atm) but he's 3rd, by a significant margin. If you include Geno and Paper Mario, he's 4th in both he two most recent polls.

Above that, I'd say it's intuitive to say that casuals are more likely to find this poll or SmashBoards after SSB4 was announced as planned than during mid-2010 or 2011.

The fact Waluigi was outdoing Bowser Jr at ANY point makes me suspicious. It smacks of L Block syndrome over at GameFAQS. Although I find it equally bizarre he didn't receive a single additional vote after late 2012. That's odd. Very odd. As much as I know people dislike him, that he didn't receive a single additional vote between late 2012 and 2013 strikes me as peculiar. Even Diskun's gained several fans this year.

On a side note; I don't think casuals will be voting on any polls. Casual would indicate someone who isn't obsessed enough to join this crazy message board.

I'm not against it. I said that if Toad gets in, then they should absolutely go into his character. I've said, however, that these stats mean far less than recent info, not just for Toad, but also for Peach and Luigi. I'm asking if Toad has other factor's that add enough to him to give him a "passing grade" like Peach and Luigi did, despite his pretty poor moveset potential.

Fair enough.

Yes, but I've said over-and-over: most of it is borderline or practical. Very little of it is personal/just toad, and absolutely none of it is iconic in the same way as FLUDD, Peanut Popgun, or Bowser's Fire. Above all that, the only things that are personal/just Toad are:
1. Some character stats form an old game. "110% speed" is nothing like Sonic's "34h37479839i24932% speed. It's not all that special, it's just a slight boost that you really have to focus on to realize very much, let alone haveit stuck with you.
2. Wario's Woods. Ain't nobody know what wario's woods is, and it was 30 years ago.

FLUDD was used in one game. That's hardly a core part of Mario. It's hardly fireballs or a hammer(which weirdly never got included despite Mario using this a lot more), and Bowser's fire is part of his genetics. Since spores is now a thing, and it is thanks to two games now technically spores are part of Toad's genetics.

1. Also the new game
2. Available on Virtual Console. Also not from 30 years ago. Mario's not even 30 yet.

Toad's speed isn't even as big a factor to his character DK's speed. DK's speed is very well known, because he's bigger, faster, and stronger too. This sticks with DK for folks, since a heavyweight being moderately fast is counter-intuitive. Toad doesn't even have that.

It's the opposite actually. Toad being so strong despite being a small and fast character. DK is big, strong and surprisingly fast. Toad is tiny, fast and surprisingly strong.

I hate repeating myself. I've said he can. I've said it's better if it's more personal than that. Diddy Kong's dash attack is from DK64, and I could easily list more. For DK64 players, Diddy Kong's jetpack & peanut gun are iconic of him.

Then for anyone who played Mario Kart, the golden/poison mushroom is iconic to Toad.
To anyone who played SMBWii the propeller cap is often associate with Toad.

It's not about playstyle. It obviously would be a huge factor in a match between M2K and Mango.
But it really isn't about playstyle. Whether diddy kong's dash attack lasted 60 frames or 80 frames, while this has a gargantuan effect on his playstyle, it has almost no effect on folks looking at Diddy Kong's dash attack and saying, "DK64! Nice!"

So it's subjective again and depends on what you grew up with.

Nintendo has also been pushing Bowser Jr. as well. And I think their choosing Toad as an homage to the fact that Toad would be the next playable character. He's the next "iconic good-guy" that's strictly mario (EX: Yoshi branched out.) Koopa Troopa, Shy Guy.. Can't be trusted. To be honest, I think Toad is only in NSMBWiiU because "it works, it's the best option, and we need to find 2 more players to fit this 4-player game." With SM3DW, it might just be an homage to roots, and I don't think they're bringing back the old game just because it has Toad, or that even it's much of a factor.

Bowser Jr. got bundled in with his (former) brothers and sister as a boss in NSMBWii and onwards. He's only as important as Kamek at best within these games. I don't call lumping him with his 8 (former) siblings pushing him forward and there's no sign of him, at least yet, in Mario 3D world either. Toad meanwhile is being pushed forwards as a protagonist.

Bowser Jr may be more popular on these boards, but Toad trumps him in importance of late.

That said, Bowser Jr. has at least been important until recently so I can see why he has the support.

Less than has been used for extraordinary exceptions.

I'll ask again: What makes Toad an extraordinary exception?

Bowser Jr. is* Toad is not the most popular. You're using outdated information. Even Waluigi outpaces him atm (in terms of wanting them in Smash.) Folks definitely "like" Toad more than Waluigi, but not necessarily as a Smash character.

This is why I think Bowser Jr. is quite likely, and that Waluigi is 50-50.

Fair enough, Toad support was stronger pre-brawl.

I agree Bowser Jr is quite likely. I just don't think he's as important to the Mario series as Toad.

Imagine you're taking a class, and you need to pass the class. 30% of your grade is lab work, 50% is exams, 10% is quizzes, and 10% is homework. You must get 60% to pass.Now imagine if Smash characters must get 60% out of 100% possible to pass. (This is super oversimplified.)
People wanting you in is like 30%. Moveset potential is 30%. Bringing something unique to Smash is 20%. Helping to make the roster look good when its all put together is 20%.

Toad has decent support, so let's give him a 20% (Mewtwo probably like 27%.)
Toad's moveset potential is pretty horrendous. Probably like 5-10% tops.
Toad's uniqueness, because he's lacking a truly unique trait.

I'd put Mewtwo higher than that if I'm honest. Everyone wants Mewtwo back. However this percentage amount whilst seemingly reasonable isn't based on anything. Smash selection is slightly more unusual than that:

For example; Lucas.
Was Lucas really wanted by many people? Did he bring anything unique moveset wise to Smash? Was he THAT much more unique than Ness?

I actually completely agree. Peach is Peach, so she was an exception. She "gets a pass" on getting like 15% on lab work because she got 45% from tests, 10% from quizzes, and 10% on homework.

Yup. Zelda too.

SSE took up so much time. Like I said, I think SSB4 will be the defining smash game for what traits matter.

Actually do agree now I understand what you meant.

I have never denied it. Unfortunately, Bowser Jr is bigger, and Waluigi is bigger as a Smash prospect. Koopa Troopa is also quite popular nowadays, but nowhere near Toad.

Bowser Jr, fine. Waluigi is arguable(really...not a single vote this whole year?)

We're not trying to please Mew2King and Axe. We're trying to please Semi-casual players. You can make any character a 'high-risk, high-reward" character. You can change the frames, hitboxes, lag time, knockback, and etc. for any character. Toad's justification is hardly much of anything, nothing like the electric type being fast (always, with many fast attacks learned, many references, etc.)

Toad's justification is he's fast because he is. Does he need anything more? The games have stated he is. I don't see people questioning why Sonic is fast despite being based on an animal people often run over in their cars due to their slow speed and poor green cross code skills.

Have...have you never played Super Mario World? Koopa Troopa regularly leaves his shell, flies with capes of yellow and flashing colors, hops into different shells to change his behavior, kicks [shells], and etc. Blue shell makes him behave like a red shell would, but Blue has been associated due to Yoshi with flying, red shell with fire. Green shell is "basic" shell and he's mindless with it. He hops into yellow shell, he starts flashing colors, is almost entirely impervious, and is "Super strong." Simultaneously, due to Yoshi, it's associated with extremely heavy weight and stomping.

This is all just from one game, there's probably more in different games. This is more than Toad has ever done, based on what you've provided for me. The reason it's more than Toad has ever done is because this is a Koopa Troopa thing. You don't see Goombas doing this, or Bob-Ombs. With almost everything Toad has done, you can also see Mario or Luigi do it, or almost any other character.

An interesting trait indeed. Sadly I, and most people had forgotten this, and the powers are more associated with Yoshi's skills or Mario Kart power ups. Also Nintendo hasn't brought it back since Mario World. One game. Even Toad's spores have been used in more than two games.

SMW has been remade in memorable history. SM3DW has not, and may be too new. Above that, SMW isn't as old as SMB2.

I agree that Koopa's moveset potential isn't as solid due to age. It's just simply not nearly as bad as Toad's.

SMB2 has been remade a lot in memorable history. Did you not own a Game Boy Advance? Or the virtual console? Heck it was even alongside Super Mario World as a demo on the pointless Masterpiece section in Brawl.

Also I'm not really sure why I'm trying to convince YOU that Toad is worthy of a position. You seem to already have made up your mind about him anyway nor do you have any impact on the final game. Likewise you're unlikely to change my stance on Toad which I've had since SSB64 so it's not like either of us are actually going to suddenly turn around and go
"BY JOVE, HE'S GOT A POINT! PERHAPS MY REASONING IS INCORRECT ON WHETHER THE MIGHTY MUSHROOM MAN SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE PLAYABLE."

Why am I doing this aside from kicks?
Probably kicks.

I'll admit one thing; this thread's got a lot more active since you arrived.

Although my social life is getting eaten up doing this thrice a day, so I may have to argue with you only once every couple of days from here on out. This is in no ways me giving in.

Maybe reply to Bowserlick's moveset in the mean time if you haven't whilst I was typing this out.

Well done, sir! Well done! I could not have possibly hoped to say it better myself.

Thank you Pacack, but I'm fairly sure anyone here could. They're just not stupid enough to waste the time getting involved in hour replies each day!

 

[Pacack]

Thank you Pacack, but I'm fairly sure anyone here could. They're just not stupid enough to waste the time getting involved in hour replies each day!

No, I genuinely am not sure if I could make as good an argument for Toad as you have. Be sure to check the Debatemania when Toad's up. You'll be a big part of our team (I'm planning on joining as well)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wow.

Are you guys writing a novel?

 

[StupendousMike]

Above that, SMW isn't as old as SMB2.

I just want to point out that Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario World were only released 2 1/2 years apart, so it's a pretty ridiculous argument to state anything from World has an advantage of any kind because it "isn't as old."

Besides, who cares? That's like saying the next batch of Star Wars flicks should draw more from Phantom Menace than Empire Strikes Back because Phantom Menace "isn't as old."

And while I'm on the subject, Super Mario Bros. 2 may be an old game now, but it's still Super Mario Bros. 2. It's a really famous game.

 

[Pacack]

Wow.

Are you guys writing a novel?

Two, actually.

Criticisms and Double Standards by EddyBear
and
Counterarguments and Reasonable Debates by YoshiandToad

 

[Bowserlick]

One of the main draws of SMB2 is being recycled in the newest Mario game. The ability to choose between characters with different abilities. Luigi's paddle jump and Peach's ability to float come from this game and are going to be present in the new Smash Brothers game.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Wow.

Are you guys writing a novel?

Apparently we are. A novel that doesn't really have a story arc since it's two people babbling endlessly about the same few points on a character they'd either want or not want in a video game.

I also just want to say for the record that whilst I personally dislike Bowser Jr(Replaced the Koopalings I grew up with so personal bias) I can certainly understand him being a reasonable choice. I'd prefer Toad, because I feel the third most playable protagonist in the Mario main games is more important than the main minion of the big bad. But that's a personal thing and I don't expect everyone to feel the same.

Hell, I think all the Mario choices are acceptable and understandable(Except Geno...I just...I just don't GET Geno) and if this was the Roster Prediction thread I probably wouldn't be pro-Toading it up as much as I am currently, but this is HIS thread after all. That and I'm pretty excited for Mario 3D World.

That said I don't mind the long winded rants; at least it gives the Toad thread a boost.

Before I forget; Bowserlick I liked your moveset a lot. Really neat idea with the Pow Block, especially since a stun ability like that would aid your theoretical Toad into getting up in the enemies faces.

 

[Pacack]

This is relevant.

Spoiler

Shows how Nintendo's been promoting Toad recently; as one of the big Mario characters.

I'm not saying it has any effect on Sakurai's decision making, but he did include X and Y stuff, so he might've been informed that Toad is the "cat's pajamas" right now.

 

[Bowserlick]

The thing about SMB2 is that it defined "major traits" in Mario, Luigi, and Peach.

Mario's all around stats came from this game.

Luigi's high jump (and I think bad traction) came from this game. And in the new Smash Luigi will even do the paddle animation with his legs.

Peach's float ability came from this game.

And now the newest Mario game is re-enforcing these traits.

 

[EddyBearr]

Know what my first Mario game was? SMB2. I remember freaking out when Peach was given her floating ability and the veg pluck. Although it always struck me as odd since she was canonically the worst at pulling up veggies.

Either way; subjective to what you grew up with at best.

And I'd be willing to bet that most of the target audience is quite a bit younger than you. (My first was SMW, btw)

1. Was already stated to be true at E3. Faster speed, crappier jumps.
2. I'm fairly sure that Nintendo would be capable of telling Sakurai what was happening in their biggest franchise. Again, this is an assumption, but it'd be an assumption to suggest he didn't as well. Neither of us will get anywhere with this.

I'm guessing you meant cape in Melee. FLUDD wasn't greated with enjoyment at all. A lot of people wondered why they replaced the arguably more iconic spin with a one time gimmick. Then they questioned it even more when Poltergust wasn't revealed for Luigi.

I don't truly think you can argue his spin is more iconic for any demographic except "serious smash fans."
I do think it was a mistake to not give Luigi the Poltergust.
I know competitive players (for competitive reasons) were disappointed with the spin being replaced, but I don't know about more casual players. Personally, as someone I guess you could say borderline, I'm happier that he has FLUDD now, but the fact that FLUDD doesn't have hover nozzle when not on the ground is truly disappointing (for recovery reasons.)

Fair enough, perhaps I am. He's still had the largest impact on the series over the years.

I'm assuming when you mean impact when comparing the "3 possible reps." I'd agree. I'm not sure how I'd agree in regards to the last decade, though, as Bowser Jr. might beat him in this time slot.

Of course Isaac has more moveset potential; he's the protagonist in a RPG with psynergy powers.

yep.

Is he more important that Toad?
Maybe. He's the main character on an unrepped franchise and has tons of moveset potential.

Personally, I think so. For context, if it was late 2015, and Golden Sun still did nothing, I'd probably say no.

But if that point about games being too old=missed target audience(an argument which I find weak considering Mario is for all ages, and I'm pretty sure older fans will still be buying Smash and Mario into and past their primes) then Isaac is ****ed with this logic, or at the very least these young gamers may be used to Matthew more than Isaac.

Depends how young. The "core gamer" subgroup, which is pretty much always the target audience, is a little bit older than the 12-14 year olds who are happy to see Yoshi or "swords." I guess you could say mid teens to mid twenties. Considering Golden Sun is an "early-mid 2000's" and "semi-current" game, it's still just fine.

The fact Waluigi was outdoing Bowser Jr at ANY point makes me suspicious. It smacks of L Block syndrome over at GameFAQS. Although I find it equally bizarre he didn't receive a single additional vote after late 2012. That's odd. Very odd. As much as I know people dislike him, that he didn't receive a single additional vote between late 2012 and 2013 strikes me as peculiar. Even Diskun's gained several fans this year.

On a side note; I don't think casuals will be voting on any polls. Casual would indicate someone who isn't obsessed enough to join this crazy message board.

Core gamers might take polls, though. EX: Sharing the poll to friends on facebook, a few take the poll. Core gamers are who we wanna please.

Each time frame, the poll is re-done. Waluigi just happened to get the same amount of votes, he didn't "not get any more votes" because all previous votes were thrown away. I truly doubt the same folks took the test. I think it's just a weird coincidence.

Do note, though, that until very recently, Bowser Jr. was relegated to "one-time baddie + racing sometimes," while Waluigi has been a consisten "spin-off" character without break, so until recently, Bowser Jr was getting ignored.

FLUDD was used in one game. That's hardly a core part of Mario. It's hardly fireballs or a hammer(which weirdly never got included despite Mario using this a lot more), and Bowser's fire is part of his genetics. Since spores is now a thing, and it is thanks to two games now technically spores are part of Toad's genetics.

One game which was pretty defining for the core audience in 2007, and still pretty important today. Fireballs and hammer are more used, but they're older, lesser "experienced" by fans.

1. Also the new game
2. Available on Virtual Console. Also not from 30 years ago. Mario's not even 30 yet.

1. Assuming it carries on (that could change,) and assuming the new game matters whatsoever.
2. Pretty much everything is on Virtual console, so I don't think we can really call that relevant. As far as I know, Virtual Console is a way for folks to play what they grew up with again (at least, that's how folks use it.)

It's the opposite actually. Toad being so strong despite being a small and fast character. DK is big, strong and surprisingly fast. Toad is tiny, fast and surprisingly strong.

That has nothing to do with my point. I was saying that "DK being surprisingly fast" is more memorable / easier to connect (most familiar with DK or DK rap are aware of it, no need to research) than "Toad being surprisingly strong." In other words, take as much being surprisingly fast has to do with DK's "moveset potential," make it not nearly as effective, and that's what Toad's got.

Then for anyone who played Mario Kart, the golden/poison mushroom is iconic to Toad.
To anyone who played SMBWii the propeller cap is often associate with Toad.

I think you're really looking for any excuse to say Toad has something "iconic." Iconic is "kirby eating enemies" and "multiple jumps." I really don't think a "Mario Kart Special" is all that iconic. Personal, usually. I don't think a Giant Bowser Shell is "iconic" to either Bowser, and I don't think "protective hearts" are iconic to Peach.

So it's subjective again and depends on what you grew up with.

And what do you think most potential customers grew up with? Most of them are 10-22/23 years old.

Bowser Jr. got bundled in with his (former) brothers and sister as a boss in NSMBWii and onwards. He's only as important as Kamek at best within these games. I don't call lumping him with his 8 (former) siblings pushing him forward and there's no sign of him, at least yet, in Mario 3D world either. Toad meanwhile is being pushed forwards as a protagonist.

Bowser Jr'srole has been "secondary antagonist." His siblings are area bosses. There's honestly a pretty huge difference. It's like saying "King Boo" in Luigi's Mansion is "lumped in with all the random portrait ghosts."

Toad is being pushed forward as a "3rd and 4th" protagonist, with differing colors. To be honest, his role comes off not as much as "I'm playing as the one and only Toad" as "I'm playing as a replacement character since I can't be Mario or Luigi." At least, that's what I kinda felt like playing NSMBWiiU (I don't really have anything against Toad. I'm against his inclusion solely because I'm fore characters who I think are more warranted.)

Bowser Jr may be more popular on these boards, but Toad trumps him in importance of late.

3 & 4th protagonist, who only comes up if you have more than 2 players, and who may (as it did with me) come off as a "stand-in's stand-in" is hardly more important than the secondary antagonist that you always face, even if playing alone or with two people.

That said, Bowser Jr. has at least been important until recently so I can see why he has the support.

Bowser Jr. was unimportant between brawl and recently. His role has been gaining significant ground. For a long while, Bowser Jr. was just "in some spin-offs."

I agree Bowser Jr is quite likely. I just don't think he's as important to the Mario series as Toad.

He's not. They're both decently important, but Toad is more important. Toad has the advantage here, but Bowser Jr. has the advantage in most places, hence why he comes out on top.



I'd put Mewtwo higher than that if I'm honest. Everyone wants Mewtwo back. However this percentage amount whilst seemingly reasonable isn't based on anything. Smash selection is slightly more unusual than that:

For example; Lucas.
Was Lucas really wanted by many people? Did he bring anything unique moveset wise to Smash? Was he THAT much more unique than Ness?



Yup. Zelda too.


Actually do agree now I understand what you meant.



Bowser Jr, fine. Waluigi is arguable(really...not a single vote this whole year?)

Toad's justification is he's fast because he is. Does he need anything more? The games have stated he is. I don't see people questioning why Sonic is fast despite being based on an animal people often run over in their cars due to their slow speed and poor green cross code skills.

You're not getting my point. I'm talking about his justification for having that trait in Smash Bros. People see Pikachu's speed in Smash Bros, and anyone who knows Pokemon knows immediately: Electric-type. People see Toad being fast, I don't think they're gonna know immediately: SMB2 and sentence in a trophy.
In other words, Toad's being fast is hardly as appealing as a personal trait as Pikachu being fast, or DK being fast.

An interesting trait indeed. Sadly I, and most people had forgotten this, and the powers are more associated with Yoshi's skills or Mario Kart power ups. Also Nintendo hasn't brought it back since Mario World. One game. Even Toad's spores have been used in more than two games.

I'd be willing to bet a very significant sum of money that more folks have forgotten about Toad's pre-SNES traits than those who have forgotten Koopa Troopas Snes & onwards traits. Simultaneously, since you're counting smash bros, then the red vs green shell dichotomy in smash bros, "follows around vs mindlessly goes forward off ledge" is directly from Koopa's SMW traits, so it's been in multiple games.

SMB2 has been remade a lot in memorable history. Did you not own a Game Boy Advance? Or the virtual console? Heck it was even alongside Super Mario World as a demo on the pointless Masterpiece section in Brawl.

Everything is on the virtual console.
And tbh, no. Those things usually aren't too big. I feel dumb now for giving SMW a boost for being re-made.

Also I'm not really sure why I'm trying to convince YOU that Toad is worthy of a position. You seem to already have made up your mind about him anyway nor do you have any impact on the final game. Likewise you're unlikely to change my stance on Toad which I've had since SSB64 so it's not like either of us are actually going to suddenly turn around and go
"BY JOVE, HE'S GOT A POINT! PERHAPS MY REASONING IS INCORRECT ON WHETHER THE MIGHTY MUSHROOM MAN SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE PLAYABLE."

You seem to be getting kind of emotional. I'm doing this because I enjoy discussion, and I enjoy debating things.
Also, it's kinda petty that you implied that I've "made up my mind." I've already stated that I've learned things from this discussion, and given Toad a few bumps up. I think what's more likely is that a "YoshiAndToad" is holding a bit more perception bias than some ol' teddy bear.

Thank you Pacack, but I'm fairly sure anyone here could. They're just not stupid enough to waste the time getting involved in hour replies each day!

^___^

 

[EddyBearr]

Hate to double post, but it's hard to quote someone new with an edit.

Two, actually.

Criticisms and Double Standards by EddyBear
and
Counterarguments and Reasonable Debates by YoshiandToad

If you're so overtly convinced that I've put forth a double standard at any point in this thread, then come at me and show me. Not only would I personally enjoy having more capable discussions if such a massive flaw is present, but I'm also kind of tickled at the idea of you not being able to show me anything that I can't explain through high levels of discrimination and nuance. In other words, come at me bro. Simply saying I've got some major flaw in my arguments without even pointing it out is pretty absurd, and screams more of a wish for a person to be incorrect than any deduction through objective observation.

I just want to point out that Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario World were only released 2 1/2 years apart, so it's a pretty ridiculous argument to state anything from World has an advantage of any kind because it "isn't as old."

Besides, who cares? That's like saying the next batch of Star Wars flicks should draw more from Phantom Menace than Empire Strikes Back because Phantom Menace "isn't as old."

And while I'm on the subject, Super Mario Bros. 2 may be an old game now, but it's still Super Mario Bros. 2. It's a really famous game.

My bad on SMW.
I think the Star Wars comparison is a false analogy, as the "target audience" for movies, especially star wars movies, has a target audience with an age-range of many, many more years than a "Nintendo Spin-off game." A Star Wars video game should probably take more from Phantom Menace, but not a movie.

 

[Pacack]

If you're so overtly convinced that I've put forth a double standard at any point in this thread, then come at me and show me. Not only would I personally enjoy having more capable discussions if such a massive flaw is present, but I'm also kind of tickled at the idea of you not being able to show me anything that I can't explain through high levels of discrimination and nuance. In other words, come at me bro. Simply saying I've got some major flaw in my arguments without even pointing it out is pretty absurd, and screams more of a wish for a person to be incorrect than any deduction through objective observation.

I'll post later. I'm officially doing schoolwork right now. In other words; challenge accepted.