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TO Handbook: PM me your Skype name to join the Handbook Skype Chat! Looking for DBAs

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
I looked over the form. It seems really good, but I have to wonder what you hope to get out of it. Is it just for pre registration? If so then it is fine the way it is. Is it for demographical information? Then maybe a question on age and location could be good. I usually ask location on my registration sheets because it gives another way to seperate players of similiar skill and those who are likely to hang out and play against each other all of the time. Is it to find out what new and old players look for in an event? If so I would add a question like, "What would wow you if done/offered/provided at this tournament?."

With how short it is I can really seeing the registration form as being a bit multi purpose.

EDIT: There isn't a way to send out a mass pm to anyone in the tournament organizer group?
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
^Anyone know how to do that? I'd love to PM everyone in the TO group to see if they're interested.

The goal is to improve new player acquisition/retention, not demographic info (who cares, right?). It's super short so people will actually complete it (if offered / mandated), and if you haven't gone yet, I wonder how to say that new players would know what would "wow" them.

Asking in retrospect is much better IMO, especially if we tried something new and said "how did you like it?"
 

Seraphiel

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
11
Location
Massachusetts, USA
It seems Oficial Tournaments and Friendly Tournaments are two separate things. If someone is willing to put together a tournament for a bunch of local people from the community getting together for some fun, to compare skills, and walk away with some prize money, more power to them. It seems to be a completely different animal when people expect a quality venue with a well organized system that attracts the best players around through hard-work and well-planned advertising. If you walk into a tournament with any expectations of performance on the part of the TO at all, you should expect to be exchanging something for that good or service.
Perhaps we need to develop a common tournament delineation for which type it will be; sort of like going from Amatuer Tourney's to the pro circuit.
In either case your actions should be governed by transparency and a dedication to helping the community grow.

Speaking of an official national circuit. As of now it seems that larger tournaments pop up wherever they may, but wouldn't it benefit the community to organize the system and interconnect them like an actual sporting league or even MTG. Each state, city, or area would determine its best players and send them to regionals, and from there to the nationals? Sponsorship and seeding would be faciliated, players could have more defined goals, and any number of other advantages. With an Official Cicuit Comittee and some standardization and regulation, at least for these tournaments, rankings would not have to be determined by volunteer collection of miscellaneous data, heresay, and legend. Does this already exist in some way?
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
To the extent that it exists, all it involves is national tournies creating 'circuits' where they advertise at regionals and maybe give some money to people there to get good players to go to a national that may be out of reach. Right now nothing is standardized and happens on the fly. I'd love to see a committee that raises funds for a group of tournies within a large regional zone all working up to one large national ran by the committee. I think though, having one committee to run say all of American tournies would create to much of a divide due to distance.
 

Syrensilly

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
42
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I am a bit late, I just found this thread. ;) I have seen a lot of really good ideas posted. On the venue fees, I usually do basically enough to cover the electricity etc. $1 for online pre-reg and $3 at the door. I try to offer a little incentive to pre-register online so I can have some kind of headcount. Then there is the fee to enter the event, usually about $7 that goes directly to the player prize pot which I do a 60/30/10 split per event. I get the lucky job of hosting tourneys for whatever game I have enough people interested in playing. I just ran my 1st tourney using the unity ruleset and smashboards in November. I was asked to host another. I have set it up for April.

I have found that listening to constructive criticism from the players is very helpful. I originally planned on running my tourney on the 5 nice flat screen LCD TV's that the venue owner had bought. Some of the players expressed concern about lag, so I remained flexible and allowed them to bring in their setups. As TO I was willing to admit that I don't know every in and out of the game. I talked to Technical_Chase a lot, and he also attended (played rather well) and helped me learn some little things I didn't know. I think that listening to the players and being flexible on the fine details is what made people want me to host another tourney at my venue. I had 28 turnout from all over Michigan for the November one, and my local guy is saying this one should be bigger.

I am also trying to offer pizza really cheap later in the day to help people not have to go driving for food. We also have a lot of fast food places nearby, but if I can keep people in the building, there's less chance of people not showing for a match. The venue has random drinks and snacks available, so hopefully I can cut down on people not here when they should be. This did bring up a good point I had overlooked, what is an acceptable amount of time to be late for a set? This place is good sized, but not so much that anyone should miss a call more than once (I can even call out the door to the smokers). I haven't had a problem with having to DQ anyone for not showing up, however as you get more people, these things do happen.

If we do manage to go past venue closing time (2am on a Saturday-I really hope not) it isn't a big deal to keep the place open a little longer. Personally I would rather stay a little longer than have people leave without finishing a tournament.

My big flaw...advertising... this time I am going to do a much better job of getting the word out to all the colleges here. I had contacts at one, so I got flyers, but I missed a lot of possible players by not getting the others. I am also hoping this will help boost the scene here for casual play.

I think it would be great to have some kind of basic handbook of what works and what doesn't that can be handed to someone that has never run a tourney before. Every event is different, but there are some basics that should be stuck with.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
I am really excited about this project. As of now we have like 4 stickies on tournament organization and various threads that come and go that discuss different ideas. It would be good to condense everything into one thread or eBook that details and describes the entire process. As of now there really are no publications on hosting video game/eSport tournaments. I really think we can end with a comprehensive guide that could be useful for not just smash.

I came up with an idea for a table of contents
  1. Preface
  2. Introduction
    What is a tournament
    What is a tournament organizers
    Who comes to events
  3. Getting started
    The community and you. Your role as TO
  4. Venue
    where to find one
    How to look
    What to look for
    negotiations
    saving the date
  5. Pricing
    Understanding that money is involved
    Pricing Analysis
    Discounts
  6. Rules
    Rulesets
    General rules of the event
  7. advertising
    Smashboards
    Allisbrawl
    Flyers
    Other websites-Reddit, shoryuken, 8wayrun, twitter, facebook
  8. preparations
    What you will need
    Interacting with potential attendees
  9. Night of
  10. Day of
  11. Brackets
    Single Elimination
    Double Elimination
    Swiss
    Round Robin
  12. Tio
  13. The event
  14. Follow up
    Survey
    Results
  15. side events

It needs a little work but I think it is a good start. I think if we can get some kind of place of collaboration we can get to work on filling in these sections and creating a solid handbook.

I also think with the handbook we need to establish a set of tools for Tournament Organizers to use.
  1. Pre registration form
  2. Tio tournament organizer
  3. Printable pre made brackets
  4. Tournament item checklist
  5. Tournament planning checklist
  6. Registration sheet templates
  7. Flyer templates
  8. List of tournament websites
  9. Follow up survey
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
Is anyone reading this thread willing to datamine and collect all the suggestions that have been made? I'd love to work together to figure out what a next step looks like as far as creating categories, major pain points, and possible solutions.

Right now to have the best immediate results, I might have NorCal as a region start using surveys for pre-registration and after-tourney surveys for feedback. It will be easier to get my small region to follow this system than for the whole community. Anyone who wants to work with their region to start collecting feedback as well, please go for it.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
I pmed Bionic about the whole spreading the word about this project. It seems to have turned out that the old TO group has been removed. I asked if there was anyway to see who used to be part of the group before it was axed. So I eagerly await his response. I can do some data mining on suggestions. Help would be appreciated. Someone to help organized it would be more appreciated.
 

PieDisliker

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
1,579
Location
Utica, NY
NNID
PieDisliker
I'm hosting a local tournament for brawl and melee and I'm thinking about having an optional survey for people to take. If you want to give me some suggestions on what to put on it or if you want me to share my results feel free to say so.

I'm new to being a TO but I think it'll help out with my own tourney and maybe it'll help you guys as well.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
This thread is amazing.

How can I ensure pools finish on time?
^this. I was wondering about bets practices in terms of schedulnig. If you do doubles and singles and only have say 10 hours, which would you do first or would you mix them inbetween eachother. I'm asking anybody on ow the usually run the events.

Also, just wanted to bring attention to the ssbpd.com smash database. Save your tio files and upload them to the site, there's a threa din melee discussion about itan dhtye'r elooking to take in tournament results and rank players and archive results.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
Suggestions so far Tournaments
1. Running Pools regardless of size
2. Amateur Bracket
3. Discounts for setups
4. Out of State Discounts
5. Driver Discounts
6. Pre Registrations
7. Cash Box
8. Paper signup sheets
9. Tournament emailing list
10. Facebook page
11. Twitter account
12. Stream Account
13. Multi game side events
14. Helpers
15. Labeling setups using Tio and paper brackets
16. Dress Rehearsal the night before
17. Collecting phone numbers
18. DQing methodically
19. Legal disclaimer to avoid liability
20. Don’t charge 10 dollars for doubles
21. Follow up Survey to improve
22. Tournament checklist
23. Try to pay top 5
24. Pool captains
25. Pay your staff but after the job is done and only a flat fee not a percent
26. Collect CRTs

That is a short list of what has been suggested so far. I have collected all of the suggestion post and made brief summaries. I am going through them now.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
10,449
Location
I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
I disagree with a lot of this stuff.

Pools for a local are silly. Run 5-7 rounds of swiss to seed into a top 4, 8, or 16 for smaller tournies. This is not hard for small tournies and eliminates bad pool creation from the equation.

Amateur Bracket is overrated. It's a concept that works for big money events like the old MLGs and stuff, but again, at the local level, it leads to bull**** where you can make more from missing the bracket than making it.

Setup discounts work for me, but OoS and Driver Discounts are questionable.

Pre-reg for a local is silly.

idc about all the social media stuff, I suppose it's fine to have those as best practices to give smash more visibility.

Dunno what you mean with multi-game side events or why they should be a best practice.

Dress Rehearsal isn't the right term. You're not going to bring everyone to the venue and go through the motions with them the night before, it's more about thinking about how you're going to set up the signups and the venue layout, etc.

Not sure what Doubles cost has to do with best practices. This varies from region to region how much people care about it and it's silly to make the cost a best practice IMO.

Paying top 5 isn't a good practice either. Instead this should be something along the lines of a chart mapping payout %s to topX for a turnout of Y. Again I just don't like the idea of having absolute numbers in best practices, this should be based on how many people turn out.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
Amateur Bracket is overrated. It's a concept that works for big money events like the old MLGs and stuff, but again, at the local level, it leads to bull**** where you can make more from missing the bracket than making it.
Here in Florida, we run amateur bracket at many of our events and we either make an additional buy-in that allows them to go ~$0 net (including the regular and amateur bracket) or we run the bracket for pure pride (this was used at the last tournament that I assisted with, and it was a considerable success).
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
my response to mogwai and metalmonster

i agree with mogwai's general point -- best practices aren't necessarily a "do this, do that". the point of the handbook is to allow TOs to find out what will work for his tournament series, and what has and hasn't worked in the past.

so, "amateur bracket" should be an option, and here are the times it has and hasn't worked well. if i ran a tournament, my personal idea for amateur bracket is that an extra $1 to enter is sweet and there's incentive for people to enter, but the money shouldn't go to the winner, it should go to the pot or towards venue.

also wrt paying out top 5, again having a "do this" handbook isn't as effective as "here is what has worked -- top 5 works with 50 people regionals" so on and so forth. variable rules are really good.

also, i think national tournament guidelines are being neglected here. who has gotten good hotel deals in the past? did you have to negotiate? has anyone talked to a travel agent in the past? can they do anything for us?
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
I think Mogwai is right about amateur bracket, they simply shouldn't pay out, I mean if your an average player able to make it to brackets but not in the money then who's to stop you from paying 10$ to enter singles, lose in pools, another 1$ to enter amateur and then then turn a profit in the end.
I think it's a great idea to let 'amateurs' play more, enjoy the scene and get some practice in but I personally think it would be better to have it as a free entry to anyone who lost in pools and winner gets free drinks or else 1$ entry and winner just gets refunded the 11$ they spent entering singles and amateur bracket with the rest going to venue.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
I disagree with a lot of this stuff.

Pools for a local are silly. Run 5-7 rounds of swiss to seed into a top 4, 8, or 16 for smaller tournies. This is not hard for small tournies and eliminates bad pool creation from the equation.

Amateur Bracket is overrated. It's a concept that works for big money events like the old MLGs and stuff, but again, at the local level, it leads to bull**** where you can make more from missing the bracket than making it.

Setup discounts work for me, but OoS and Driver Discounts are questionable.

Pre-reg for a local is silly.

idc about all the social media stuff, I suppose it's fine to have those as best practices to give smash more visibility.

Dunno what you mean with multi-game side events or why they should be a best practice.

Dress Rehearsal isn't the right term. You're not going to bring everyone to the venue and go through the motions with them the night before, it's more about thinking about how you're going to set up the signups and the venue layout, etc.

Not sure what Doubles cost has to do with best practices. This varies from region to region how much people care about it and it's silly to make the cost a best practice IMO.

Paying top 5 isn't a good practice either. Instead this should be something along the lines of a chart mapping payout %s to topX for a turnout of Y. Again I just don't like the idea of having absolute numbers in best practices, this should be based on how many people turn out.
Most of the issue has to do with the poor title choice. Really that list is what has been suggested. I was keeping my own personal list of what I felt were best practices and just added what others have said to it before posting it here. It really is just a list of suggestions.

You seem to really like the tournament card game style of tournaments. Running swiss to get top 8,16 so on seems like a good idea especially if you want to efficiently use time and resources. I think if you are trying to use pools as strictly seeding and trying to get as many players into bracket as you can pools might be the better choice. Also you mentioned that you would only have to run 5-7 rounds of swiss to create a top # bracket. From the magic tournaments I have been to they seem to run 5 rounds and that seems to give them a solid top 8 more often than not. I kind of see fewer rounds as a disadvantage especially if I have the time, resources, and I want to give new players the most matches possible for their money. On the other hand the advantage of swiss seems to be that the new players will eventually play others around their skill level.

As a tournament I don't like that swiss somewhat lacks a finals match. I also don't like that you can win before the last round, which in turn can skew other players results. If smash was a single game this wouldn't be a huge issue but since their are so many more smash events, I can't penalize players for saving their resources when they have already won one event. I have also heard that towards the middle swiss can get inaccurate. I also like that elimination brackets give places which from what I have seen can be pretty important. New players love to see where they wond up especially if they didn't get last.

Dress Rehearsal is a bad name but it is all I could think of.

Amateur brackets as they are now, in my opinion are bad. I think nationals should have pro, semi pro, and amateur brackets. Pro would be those who advance, amateur would be those that lost all or won only one match in pools. Semi pro would then be left as everyone else. My reasoning is that to a true amateur there is no difference between going two and out to a pro or two and out to a semi pro. In my opinion amateur brackets really need to be comprised of only amateurs. They like playing against people of their own skill level.

By multi game side events, I simply mean non smash side events. It is arguable that this isn't a best practice. I do feel however it is something we should strive for since it would give us exposure, make a more attractive to sponsors, and could help with growth.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
10,449
Location
I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
You seem to really like the tournament card game style of tournaments. Running swiss to get top 8,16 so on seems like a good idea especially if you want to efficiently use time and resources. I think if you are trying to use pools as strictly seeding and trying to get as many players into bracket as you can pools might be the better choice. Also you mentioned that you would only have to run 5-7 rounds of swiss to create a top # bracket. From the magic tournaments I have been to they seem to run 5 rounds and that seems to give them a solid top 8 more often than not. I kind of see fewer rounds as a disadvantage especially if I have the time, resources, and I want to give new players the most matches possible for their money. On the other hand the advantage of swiss seems to be that the new players will eventually play others around their skill level.

As a tournament I don't like that swiss somewhat lacks a finals match. I also don't like that you can win before the last round, which in turn can skew other players results. If smash was a single game this wouldn't be a huge issue but since their are so many more smash events, I can't penalize players for saving their resources when they have already won one event. I have also heard that towards the middle swiss can get inaccurate. I also like that elimination brackets give places which from what I have seen can be pretty important. New players love to see where they wond up especially if they didn't get last.
For something like an FNM, they'll run a flat 4 rounds of swiss. For a pre-release, they'll run a flat 4 or 5 rounds of swiss. These are the casual tournies, where typically they're doing prizes for everyone who's X-0 or Y-1. For PTQs though, you run 5 rounds for 17-32 players, 6 rounds for 33-64 players, 7 rounds for 65-128 players, etc (source: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtgcom/protour/barcelona12-qualifiers), and following swiss you cut to a top 8, where you play a single elimination bracket. As far as I'm concerned, Swiss is strictly superior to Pools as a preliminary round to determine seeding. Each round is re-seeding the players and as such, you don't get bull**** death pools that screw people out of bracket.

And I dunno where you're coming from with towards the middle swiss can get inaccurate. It's superior to both pools and a randomly seeded bracket of all players for determining, well, basically all positions. A well seeded bracket would yield more accurate middle results, but that's irrelevant because the whole reason we do pools is because we can't do well seeded brackets without a prelim round. As for later rounds mattering, that's really no different from what's going on in pools right now. Top seed can be locked up pretty quickly in pools at which point a player could throw a match to help a friend out. This sort of gaming the system is just part of these systems, there's really no way around it unless players consider getting the highest seed possible relevant.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
One of the things I always thought would be useful is a average percentage of those who say they are coming but don't show up (no shows). I think that such a percentage would give TOs a good idea of how many people to perdict at any given event thus allowing them to make better decisions with hotel and venue financing. I think if the form is adopted we should ask TOs to record how many of those who filled it out didn't show up. From there we could keep track of the percentage of no shows in the different regions as well as a national percentage.
 

*Cam*

Smash Lord
Joined
May 18, 2010
Messages
1,426
Location
State College, PA
One of the things I always thought would be useful is a average percentage of those who say they are coming but don't show up (no shows). I think that such a percentage would give TOs a good idea of how many people to perdict at any given event thus allowing them to make better decisions with hotel and venue financing. I think if the form is adopted we should ask TOs to record how many of those who filled it out didn't show up. From there we could keep track of the percentage of no shows in the different regions as well as a national percentage.
This is a really good idea. I think it's worth looking into. I'm willing to bet it will vary depending on the size of the tournament too.
 

OkamiBW

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
2,051
Location
20 miles south of Irvine, SoCal
First of all...here's my tournaments thread: **Tournaments Hosted by OkamiBW**

I'm interested in what people think about Swiss too. Has anyone tried it?
Swiss
I've ran it twice using Mantis, which is the program used to run Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments. People didn't really like it. Pools is nicer on time at least Imo. If you have to wait for one match every round, it's horrible. Conversely, with pools, if you're waiting on a match for each pool...well, at least it's all at the same time. Plus, you can have specific people run single pools, which helps reduce strain of having to roll the bracket every round.

Texting Matches
I may try this at the next tournament I host right before NYTE.

Tournies By Hand
I really like the idea of this. I think I may buy 5 poster boards and use 4 for pools and a fifth for the bracket. This would be mad sick if it runs smoothly.

Methods I Use
Host Brawl As Well As Melee
This not only joins the community and gives a more enjoyable turnout for the venue, but it increases the amount of players for both games. For awhile, I was hosting Melee-only tournaments with only about 16-20 players or so each. First tournament I hosted with Brawl as well got 30 entrants for Melee.

Charge $4/team for Doubles
It's really hard to not enter when the price you have to pay to enter doubles is $2. It's like the cost of a large drink at a fast food restaurant. Last tournament, Silly Kyle and I got $20 in total for winning 1st, but it was enjoyable and a good warm-up for singles. You probably don't have to charge this little, but the way I see it...you're there to play Melee...not make bank.

Doubles RR
Every single tournament I've ran has been a round robin. The least amount of teams we've had is 9, so that means every team gets at least 8 games. That's great for a $2 entrance fee. There's pretty much no reason why anyone shouldn't enter doubles. And as long as you're on your toes, time shouldn't be an issue. This could start being troublesome when you have more than 12 or so teams though.

Free Venue
Lucky for me, I haven't had to pay a dime for the venue I've got (TV Lounge in the Student Union at University of Arizona). The only thing that deters people from ever going is gas money. *shrugs* This can be hard though if you can't find a good sized venue for free. Oh...and, the venue I use comes with 4 CRT's. :)

Other Thoughts
The only other thing I can think of that might be useful for those short on time is really enforcing a no friendlies rule until all pools have finished. Hm...and make sure you have your good players teach the worse players rather than just playing friendlies with other good players. I remember thinking it was mad cool to sit down with Kira or Zhu or whoever and learn what I could from people who at least make it seem like they genuinely believe you have potential.

~BW

:037:
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
For something like an FNM, they'll run a flat 4 rounds of swiss. For a pre-release, they'll run a flat 4 or 5 rounds of swiss. These are the casual tournies, where typically they're doing prizes for everyone who's X-0 or Y-1. For PTQs though, you run 5 rounds for 17-32 players, 6 rounds for 33-64 players, 7 rounds for 65-128 players, etc (source: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtgcom/protour/barcelona12-qualifiers), and following swiss you cut to a top 8, where you play a single elimination bracket. As far as I'm concerned, Swiss is strictly superior to Pools as a preliminary round to determine seeding. Each round is re-seeding the players and as such, you don't get bull**** death pools that screw people out of bracket.

And I dunno where you're coming from with towards the middle swiss can get inaccurate. It's superior to both pools and a randomly seeded bracket of all players for determining, well, basically all positions. A well seeded bracket would yield more accurate middle results, but that's irrelevant because the whole reason we do pools is because we can't do well seeded brackets without a prelim round. As for later rounds mattering, that's really no different from what's going on in pools right now. Top seed can be locked up pretty quickly in pools at which point a player could throw a match to help a friend out. This sort of gaming the system is just part of these systems, there's really no way around it unless players consider getting the highest seed possible relevant.
Overly personal posting..
Swiss is way better than pools. Way better. I went to three consecutive prereleases of Magic the Gathering (2 prereleases and the release event, actually). That means I played a trading card game in which the cards I was allowed to use was given to me randomly and then I drew random cards. I researched a butt ton of general drafting strategy and Scars of Mirrodin cards. Even after using a deck of random characters and then fighting with random creatures, all of which could trip, Swiss was accurate enough to confirm the results of my last 3 sealed prereleases (2/3 were top 8s) and determined that I was among the top 8 players there all 3 times. I played 5 or six matches. There were at least 25-30 people.

I went to a Brawl tournament this past weekend using pools. I played the same number of matches. I won 3/5 games, losing to the player who went on win the tournament, losing to the player who went on to make 9th, and beating the player who went on to make 7th. That wasn't good enough for top 15. I went on to win amateur bracket without losing a game.

I can't *prove* that I ought to have been in brackets. But that's -exactly- the point, pools has players play rather arbitrarily selected games instead of having the -right- players playing the -right- games. Pools sees the best player win his first two games and then says, "You know what. You know what would really help us figure out whether this guy is good? If we pitted him against the guy whose lost every game so far". It doesn't effectively use the matches it has to gather information. Swiss puts the guy who's won 2 games against someone else who's won 2 games so far. So he gets more accurately seeded when he, in all probability, goes on to get a good ranking. Meanwhile the guy who lost 2 games plays three other losers, and come to find out the system realizes he's the best of the losers and should squeak into the top group. (I say group instead of 15 because I would love for swiss to be used all the way down to top 8 or 4 even.)

After a swiss smash tournament, I'd be more likely to be able to point at multiple players with similar performance to me that I had beaten and then complain. Except at that point, I wouldn't be complaining, I would be placed correctly like every single Swiss MtG tournament I've played since I pulled my first sealed card, a rare Djinn of Wishes of my favorite color, and promptly set it aside because my research into other sealed formats told me it'd be hard to win with blue without at least 2 additional blue flyers.

(the one sealed prerelease that I did not top 8, I made tons of terrible decisions. I'm terrible at draft and have had nothing but success with draft results accurately putting me amongst the worst players in the Swiss)
 

PieDisliker

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
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Location
Utica, NY
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PieDisliker
Just wanted to let you guys know that I ran my tourney with pools for singles and no doubles, and I have to say that it improved both quality and effeciency of the tourney. $10 went to singles for the pot, while the same people would've made more money through doubles and everyone would've had to sacrifice more money to pay for (imo) a similar experience that could come free. I don't regret choosing pools > doubles at all. Running both I think might end up making the tourney run late.

Also, the discount on venue fee for bringing setups is AMAZING. Nobody complained about not getting to play friendlies and I barely had to kick anyone off for a tourney match because we had plenty of setups around. I recommend it for every tournament.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Just wanted to let you guys know that I ran my tourney with pools for singles and no doubles, and I have to say that it improved both quality and effeciency of the tourney. $10 went to singles for the pot, while the same people would've made more money through doubles and everyone would've had to sacrifice more money to pay for (imo) a similar experience that could come free. I don't regret choosing pools > doubles at all. Running both I think might end up making the tourney run late.

Also, the discount on venue fee for bringing setups is AMAZING. Nobody complained about not getting to play friendlies and I barely had to kick anyone off for a tourney match because we had plenty of setups around. I recommend it for every tournament.
It's not difficult to run doubles bracket + singles pools + singles bracket for 30 people or less within 7 hours, provided that you have a handful of set-ups. Set-ups are always important.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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teams is more important to some players/regions than others. i see no use in mandating it for regions with players who really don't care, and i think prioritizing more singles and singles pools over teams is an amazing idea (and by extension, substituting any event over another, again, for regions/players that prefer it)
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
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Mar 13, 2008
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It's not difficult to run doubles bracket + singles pools + singles bracket for 30 people or less within 7 hours, provided that you have a handful of set-ups. Set-ups are always important.
It's a tradeoff, it depends on how popular each event is. You could run a dozen tournaments of single elim in a day, but single elimination has fewer games and less accurate results. Cutting doubles leads to better pool sizes (or more rounds of swiss is what it ought to be) for more playing and more consistent results. But you lose doubles.

There are regions that are really into doubles but I think having doubles at every tournament is a peculiarity that developed out of Melee having a fun and similar doubles format. Brawl doubles is not as fun or popular, but cutting a program is always harder than adding something new so it sticks around. No one even -thinks- of bothering with a basic tier list for doubles.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Brawl doubles is not as fun or popular, but cutting a program is always harder than adding something new so it sticks around. No one even -thinks- of bothering with a basic tier list for doubles.
All of this is wrong. Other than the concept of keeping one event being easier than adding something new.
 

Pinkie Pie

Smash Journeyman
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Scar, sorry if this has been asked before, but what exactly is the point of the survey in the OP? Will that download straight to programs like tio? It seems like we could streamline the process and just integrate the feature into TO programs.


Amateur Bracket is overrated. It's a concept that works for big money events like the old MLGs and stuff, but again, at the local level, it leads to bull**** where you can make more from missing the bracket than making it.
It depends on how you run the amateur bracket. In the tournaments I've run with them, I have received overwhelmingly positive feedback. The amateur bracket doesn't take any money out of the pot and is mostly for pride. I've been able to provide prizes out of pocket (box of Thin Mints and an OG NES stick) that are like participation awards, but much much cooler. For smaller tournament of 20-30 people, I have pools and use those results to seed the regular and the amateur bracket. We've been able to attract more players and it keeps new players engaged instead of just getting ***** like most people at their first tourney.

This thread is amazing.

How can I ensure pools finish on time?
^this. I was wondering about bets practices in terms of schedulnig. If you do doubles and singles and only have say 10 hours, which would you do first or would you mix them inbetween eachother. I'm asking anybody on ow the usually run the events.

Also, just wanted to bring attention to the ssbpd.com smash database. Save your tio files and upload them to the site, there's a threa din melee discussion about itan dhtye'r elooking to take in tournament results and rank players and archive results.

I'll preface with saying I'm a new TO for Smash, but am very familiar with running events in general. I have only run 3 tournaments so far, but every single one of them ran exactly on schedule (by schedule, I don't mean the posted schedule, but my adjusted schedule to account for Smasher-time. So when I say singles starts at 1pm, I know they'll start at 2pm).

Your number one weapon is your own responsibleness and conscientiousness. This means YOU know what time it is and when matches should be happening. I've seen a lot of TOs just hanging out playing friendlies and giving no ****s. You need to make sure that when you expect a match to be played out, you follow up and call it out and actually get a response from the related parties. You CANNOT count on smashers to be responsible for their matches and actually check the bracket. **** no.

Your second weapon is your designated assistants. People you trust to help you call matches, follow up on sets, enforce the rules. For pools, this means a pool leader - not necessarily the number 1 seed in the pool, but the one you know will record the sets and deliver them to you. This also means making your expectations clear to your pool leaders (none of this, "durr, I thought you were going to come up and take my pool sheet, that's why we've been playing friendlies for the last hour, hurr durr"). And even after all that, you can still only rely on YOU. Go around to check on the status of pools every half hour to hour. You can't trust anyone.

Scheduling: I have been setting the following schedule for 20-30 man tournies:
1 hour for when venue opens and friendlies
30 min for registration
2 hours for doubles
30 min for last minute singles reg (to be started during finals of doubles)
1.5 hours for pools
30 min designated food break
3-4 hours for singles

Using this framework, the schedule I posted was (venue closed at 9:00pm, so I had to start things early):
Schedule:
11:00AM Doubles registration and friendlies
12:00PM Doubles start
2:30PM Singles registration
3:00PM Singles Start

Hope this helps.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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PinkiePie ideally yes we could have a database to store this information. The more automation on this front, the more successful the project will be. TIO is the default tournament organizer for SSBM, so I assume I'd have to work with Neal to get the ball rolling, but I'm not sure how much time / desire he has. I haven't reached out yet, but I'd love to delegate that task to someone else, I'm happy to talk about the overall vision with someone who wants to grab the torch.
 

Pinkie Pie

Smash Journeyman
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If I can, I'd love to help out both in general and with this database task. I don't have any programming or technical knowledge, so I'm not sure if I can help here. I also don't have any rep outside of Texas and tri-state, but I'm certainly a dedicated and responsible Smasher. Let me know how I can help.

Automation is very good, but the key will be consolidation and standardization. The ssbpd has gained a lot of popularity, in part because it's easy and operates within the established framework of using tio. For any player database you want to develop, it will have to be compatible with the ssbpd and tio. IMHO.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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Anyone who wants to get involved in a skype chat for this ping me your skype name and we can talk about it / develop the idea :)
 

bertbusdriver

Smash Ace
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Just got back from SMYM a few hours ago. Venue didn't open until 10AM, and we got 33 teams and 85 singles done before midnight. As a first time TO(granted I had a ****ton of help today too), this thread was a godsend.

I'll have a few thoughts to share about the experience within the next few days. For now, I gotta catch up on hw I've skipped to plan the tournament...
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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I'm really excited to hear that this thread is helping so many TOs even in its current form. I'm excited to continue to invest in it and turn it into an even stronger resource for both new and established TOs.

And if anyone is interested in joining a skype chat to talk about TO best practices, share ideas, and ultimately create new technology or frameworks that TOs can leverage, PM me your Skype name and I'll add you to the group!
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
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I feel dumb but what is DBA? Database administrator?

Anyway, I would be happy to join the chat. I have tried contacting the ambassadors to see if they are willing to get involved with the project. I haven't quite gotten anything back yet. I am still hoping though.

I may look into working on some surveys. Maybe we can survey the general smash populace and see if there is some information to be found. Still working on write ups and segments of information that could be used in the handbook. A lot of information on this site, it is just so scattered.

The Smash Database is amazing. It needs way more support. With the Elo rating system we can use it to test our rulesets and learn more about the community. Before hand stages were picked based on perception and opinion. I feel with a reliable elo rating system we can now test stages for their actual legitimacy. It will be tough and probably be resisted but once the data is collected we will have a more reliable and agreed upon ruleset and stage list. My idea is to use a 95% confidence in order to determine which stages are "neutral" and then a 75-90% confidence in order to determine which stages are counterpicks.

I always get people asking why we don't play on this stage. I usually respond cause it is broken (Like they will understand that). No we will be able to say that on this stage the lower ranked player is overcome the higher ranked player 35% of the time thus making it banned for competitive play because the desire of competition should always be proving who the best player is. Thus the goal should be to create an environment in which we maximize this and minimize upsets (unless warranted). I mean one of your first Brawl threads Scar you mentioned your theory on what competitiveness meant. I believe you said it is the innate property of an activity to reward the better participant.

EDIT: I finally got all the survey info I received into one tournament document. I was finally able to throw out like 50 papers.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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The SSBPD is a separate project but will need TO support if it ever gets to the point where we're recording set details like characters and stage.
 

♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡

Anti-Illuminati
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,863
One thing that should be applied to all tournaments, big or small, is paying the fees in advance to a bank account if possible.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
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I am pretty sure the brawl community already records characters at the very least the characters used in the top 8. It might be a start to have the melee community do the same if they haven't done so already. As for stages I don't think either community has really been recording the usage. I know the brawl MLG events recorded stages. I am sure that data is around here somewhere. I wonder if Melee MLGs kept track of stages used.

I like the idea of pre registration at any event. It really helps the TO out, especially in the case of lessening their financial risk. I am not sure what players will think of it though.
 
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