To everyone involved in AL's smash scene

[DanGR]

Guys, I'm kinda curious about what you guys think about the "Meta ban hype" and all, whatever you may think about it... if you think there is any... or if you don't really care...

An MK didn't win the last two national tourneys, and he's not really taking as many top spots in tourneys around the world that I thought he would about a year ago. A lot of people are beginning to pick him up though, like me. (I'm picking him up to fight him.)

My position: I'm not exactly pushing for a ban, though I really wouldn't mind if he was banned. He's got no bad matchups- only those which the Meta Knight player doesn't know.
He sucks the fun out of the game, and turns both new and veteran players away from it. He's a disease that is naturally unhealthy for a growing smash scene.

I'm sort of frustrated at the matchup (Oli-MK) when I study video and frame data and stuff and hear about the best Olis getting 3 stocked by average MK players that can dair camp. I can't do anything. I feel helpless, like Janitor against Olimar, apparently. I tried other toons, tested out a LOT of stuff, as well as study their frame data in hopes of finding some new stuff. They all have too many holes. It seems sort of hopeless to take a lot of time out of my Oli to play a character besides Meta Knight. That and he feels so easy and simple. It's never frustrating to fight anyone because I've got soooo many options everywhere against everyone.

Anyways... uh, AL is cool cuz we don't have a lot of MKs right? >_> I'm beginning to use him. I don't really give a crud about my rep as a non-MK user anymore. It's pretty clear to me that I'll never really be well known for being a good Oli user anyways, so w/e.

Pro-ban side: I'm helping you out.
Anti-ban side: You've got nothing to worry about, right?

Since I can't exactly make a poll like a moderator can and I like discussion, I thought I'd just ask you guys in this thread.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I've been pretty vocal about how I think its ******** to ban Metaknight.

This is just one of the reasons people don't take the Brawl community seriously (which, in my theory reflects on the fact that the Brawl community doesn't take Brawl seriously). For example, how many Brawl players that are/were involved seriously with any other competitive community are pushing for a MK ban? Very few.

That's because competitive communities traditionally use banishment as a last resort. We don't ban, we do our best to find a way around it. Banning an entire character from tournament play is probably the most drastic ban you can make in a game.

Saying things like "he has no bad match ups" is a terrible point to make. As my M2K-quoting sig points out, every fighting game ever made has a best character that has few or no bad matchups. That's what happens when you have a game with more than one unique character. If you take Metaknight out of Brawl, then several characters in the game will lose "their bad matchup". It's inevitable. I point again to Melee-Sheik, who has no "bad matchups". She has about as much trouble with Fox as MK does with Snake or Diddy, and that's IT. She WRECKS everyone else. But the melee community had/has WAY more discipline than the Brawl community (again, I think because they take their game more seriously).

And insinuating that because YOUR character gets wrecked in a matchup, that character should be banned is even more shaky an argument. That's like melee pikachus calling for a sheik ban. Or snake players calling for an Olimar ban. ;-P (honestly I think snake vs olimar is worse than olimar vs MK)

And one thing I want to point out is that this community is confusing a couple of douchebags playing gay with a character being ban-worthy. As much as we preach "there's no such thing as honorable play/play to win" in this community...in all honesty, we're full of ****. Imagine if every fox player in melee played like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCVT9GNMgZ

That would suck the fun out of the game, and people might even have called for a ban. But again, melee players seemed to actually like having fun with they play, so they generally didn't play like that. That's also why the melee community banned Peach Bomber stalling and Rising Pound stalling. They were techniques that were no where near unstoppable, but they were gay and ruined the entire smash experience. This is why I'm so flabbergasted that there's even a question as to why planking should be legal or not. The Brawl community is ****ing ********.

On top of those general points, MK isn't THAT BAD. I start to take people seriously about banning him and then I watch them play and they're doing a bunch of dumb **** that clearly shows that they don't know the match up at all. I'm seriously considering working on a video called "How to Beat Metaknight" because people don't seem to understand basic points like "Tornado has very little winddown lag" or "shuttle loop has a huge hitbox". Seriously Brawl community, learn MK's moveset and then get back to me...here's a hint: all his moves have huge hitboxes and little windown lag. Stop trying to dash grab him from across the screen after he misses a move, IT WILL NEVER WORK. Also, he's better in the air than you. Don't chase him in the air, wtf. I mean, literally show me a video where a person who was better than his opponent lost simply because it was MK. I've never seen it. It's always that either the MK was the better player or the person didn't know wtf he was doing. *shrugs* I do good against MK with all of the characters that are considered close matchups like snake/diddy/wario...I usually beat George's MK with Snake, and I rarely get to fight Will_'s MK because he's able to wreck me with his DK lol..and I do okay in the matchup with like Sheik and some other characters. Like it's not even a big deal to me, it's just another character in my view. Granted I don't play olimar, but death matchups happen in all the smash games. You knew it would happen before you picked up the game.

 

[_Keno_]

He sucks the fun out of the game, and turns both new and veteran players away from it. He's a disease that is naturally unhealthy for a growing smash scene.

These are my views on MK too, so you can count me as pro-ban.

However, I do not mind playing MK players myself, which is why even at places that have MK banned, I inform my opponent that I allow MK to be played against me.

 

[Duchock]

This is my primary argument against Meta-Knight. It's one of the videos from the "Best vids of each character" thread. If this is skillful MK playing, oi vay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QiUTSw7wEg

He's no fun to watch for me, I don't really have fun playing him, and also the things that DanGR mentioned (driving away players, etc), but that's just my opinion. Personal opinion shouldn't sway the decision to ban (i.e. an organizers/BRoomers who're biased against MK, but a general attending populace who doesn't support the ban). Popular opinion should be the deciding factor.


I think the hype is spawned from the thought that "if we're gonna do it, now's the time." The model of unbanned-MK has been tested for almost a year and a half now, so there's a feeling that there's enough development to estimate what a world would be without it and the effects that MK has had on the game and community. It's kinda like o. Sagat. Some tourney's banned him, some countries banned him, others were like "you're a **** if you pick him." At least that's my understanding. And I think MK has fallen into the same category. I think it'll stay this way for a while at least.

 

[Pika_Cam]

I'm pro-ban myself. It's not necessarily because I hate playing against MK but because lots of people pick him up to just to use the most broken character in the game. Then, the rest of us get frustrated and start picking up Metaknight just to deal with all the other MKs running around. I'm not going to pick him up though. I don't have any respect for myself when I win matches using him.

I went to an MK banned tournament and had a lot more fun because there was a larger variety of characters being used, and it wasn't guaranteed that a Metaknight would be in the Grand Finals.

 

[theONEjanitor]

This is my primary argument against Meta-Knight. It's one of the videos from the "Best vids of each character" thread. If this is skillful MK playing, oi vay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QiUTSw7wEg

.

So ban him because his matches are boring?

KK

 

[Duchock]

So ban him because his matches are boring?

KK

I'm not talking about upholding a Platonistic world of absolute perfects and morality in banning him; I'm talking about keeping a game appealing to the masses. In my opinion, Banning Meta Knight is less of a question of "lol he's overpowered let's ban him" while ignoring that someone else will take his place. It's more of a question about what will help keep competitive Brawl alive, people enjoy playing it and attending tournaments. The fact that people perceive him as overpowered leads people to believe that banning him will make Brawl fun again. If banning Meta Knight is the extreme people see to keep people playing Brawl, then they'll do just that. I don't want a part in that kind of decision, but I wouldn't be mad if he did end up getting banned for whatever reason.


Case in point: I don't care about banning MK because I don't 1) play him or 2) have a losing problem against him (I lose against plenty of other things to be worry about MK). But there's an argument for either side. I just end up playing devil's advocate.

 

[nice1]

learn the match up and continue playing the game. either that or get a character specifically for mk

 

[Sandtru27]

learn the match up and continue playing the game. either that or get a character specifically for mk

lol get owned

nice1 holding it down

 

[nice1]

i'll admit i mean when i first seen how mk really was at fast 1 i really wanted him banned but when i saw how ally can beat mk's i was like ok the tornado can be stopped. i learn how to angle my shield and nade camp. its just a matter of hitting a wall and learning the match-up. right now my wall is D3 and getting around waddle dees. reflex brother stomps me with D3 but i'll learn the match-up soon and get better at it. all it really takes is playing the match up over and over and exploiting tactics and then ur good to go

 

[Fuego Fox]

Mk shouldnt be banned




Learn how to beat him if you play smarter then your opponent you can win

I beat an Mk at a tourney recently with fox there is a certain way to use your char aainst everyone

A Char has never been banned in smash and never will be

Lol at the thought that you can pick up MK and be really good at brawl

Mk gives scrubs wings
but doesnt make them flyyyy

 

[DanGR]

Lol at the thought that you can pick up MK and be really good at brawl

Are you blind?

 

[Xeedoc]

I think M2K sandbagged to make MK less "ban-worthy"

That's what I think.

 

[DanGR]

He wouldn't. He doesn't.

 

[Will_]

I almost wish brawl didn't exist so I could still say "Meta Knight is my favorite video game character" and not get spit upon.

I'm not entirely sure banning mk will help the community grow. If there were a concrete way to show that it would then I'd probably pull for it. Until then it just seems like a pandora's box to me.

 

[DanGR]

I hear yah bro. /sorry

 

[Fuego Fox]

Are you blind?

Its all about a players skill and how well he knows the matchups

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

oli vs mk not THAT bad i took seibrik to last stock high percent

ill say what i said before

living in alabama doesnt provide proper matchup experience to effectively choose a stance on the matter, imho

 

[Pika_Cam]

oli vs mk not THAT bad i took seibrik to last stock high percent

ill say what i said before

living in alabama doesnt provide proper matchup experience to effectively choose a stance on the matter, imho

Please don't tell me it's another Florida elitist come to tell us that we don't know s**t because we don't live in a crowded state. I can't tell you how sick I get of people using the "I live in a tough region" excuse. Look, we're discussing whether or not we should ban MK in our state tournaments or not. Therefore, I think we have a right to choose a stance on the matter, seeing as how it will be directly affecting us.

Next thing you know, they'll be telling us we can't choose whether or not to have pizza at our tournaments because we don't live in Italy. Ridiculous!

And FYI, a very competitive smash scene has grown in AL recently. People from TN, GA, and MS have been joining us not to mention all the up and coming homegrown players. We have quite a diverse cast at our tourneys with plenty of Metaknights, Snakes, Warios, Falcos, Diddys, D3s and whatever else you can think of.

 

[I SEE YOU]

I don't think mk should be banned. I was getting sick of him at one point and wanted him banned, but then attempted to pick up other characters specifically for him. First i learned yoshi and had a lot of fun attempting to beat the best character in the game with a character that was considered sub par by most. After doing this i went back to D3 because overall he is a better character and the match up is not that bad. My biggest complaint about mk used to be tornado, but once you learn to angle your shield up (at least as a heavy character) tornado is no longer a big problem. I have the most success against mks when i camp. As boring as that may be it works : / I dont think we should ban mk in our tournaments because we don't have a mk problem here. Our tournaments have a variety of ppl placing and the only mk that is typically at the top is that ***** with an underscore that plays dk xD

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

Ok, then who are your "unbeatable" and worth banning-for metaknight players?

 

[CRASHiC]

Erm. . . . Seibrik on a road trip?

 

[Sandtru27]

Erm. . . . Seibrik on a road trip?

dude why don't you just blow him already and every other smash "celeb" that you meat ride

--

but for real lol at AL thinking about banning MK

how does that help your region grow? besides rewarding *****ing

NO OTHER REGION BANS MK

why do you think it'd be a good idea for you to do it?

you only lose from it if any of you ***s decide to travel (***s referring only to non-cool members of AL smiz-mo)

MK is significantly better than any other char in the game... but that doesn't mean ****... and has happened in a lot of games before

random kids can't pick up MK and do well with him

there's still some skill

and i'll **** any AL MK cause i'm a jerk

RARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ***g0tz

 

[CRASHiC]

You just mad cause I won't ride your ****.

 

[Sandtru27]

yea that must be it

i've never **** talked people who meat ride me.... oh wait... i have

 

[_Keno_]

Yes Sandtru, the fact that most large tournaments keep MK unbanned would be pretty bad for AL if we banned MK.

Also, I'm seeing that most of the anti-ban voters are posting about how to beat MK, and that we should just have secondaries and not whine about the match-up, while most pro-ban people don't really mind facing MKs, they just want more growth, fun, and/or diversity.

Also, whether or not MK is banned, it will still be up to whoever the TO is to ban him...

 

[Sandtru27]

yesssssss, anagram peachesssssss

idk, lol

there's not gonna be as much growth if you're not learning the matchup (edit: which is arguably gonna be one of the most important matchups to know when/if you dudes travel)

fun is relative... i would've quit this ****ty game a long time ago if Wario wasn't in it (every other char. can blow me)

diversity is based on individual choices, if you ban MK... i think it's foolish to not think you'll see an influx in snake/d3/whoever players; either way, diversity isn't gonna be there if players choose to use the "best" characters... and who can blame them?

i'm a beast

is reflex still considered AL?

nice1 is cool

 

[Duchock]

but for real lol at AL thinking about banning MK

This was a thread (for AL people) to discuss MK banning as a subject, not to discuss banning MK in tournaments in AL. I guess in the strictest literal sense, yes, we are thinking about banning MK. Banning MK in Alabama would only really affect one, maybe two people and wouldn't affect tournies in a major way.


Trolls are the reason I'm glad I live in Alabama -_-



But I'd really like Munkus' opinion on this, even though I'm pretty sure I already know what he'll say.

 

[Sandtru27]

you should become a lawyer

but you'd be bad at it

if the effect of banning is truly that small

why do it, dumbo-ck?

 

[CRASHiC]

Oh i meant to say that banning it was a scrub thing to do. Basically it homed in at a extremely high rate of speed, knocking out your stones. Since the area was so inclosed people thought it was cheap. A well versed player could grab you out of it though. They banned certain items too. Hense why the community is so small anhd ridiculous when it comes to making up rules.

Every ban you make is going to exclude someone. Banning Metaknight will exclude people who either love Metaknight or who look upon banning Metaknight. Banning MK could hurt your the growth of your community just as much as it can grow it.

 

[DanGR]

oli vs mk not THAT bad i took seibrik to last stock high percent

ill say what i said before

living in alabama doesnt provide proper matchup experience to effectively choose a stance on the matter, imho

Ok, then. Let’s use your logic.

Florida doesn't have any decent Oli players (except you) for Meta Knight players to fight against. In return you don't have good matchup experience against Metas that know the matchup because there are none. Therefore, you don't have proper matchup experience to effectively choose a stance either.

The logic of pretty much every other notable Olimar player that knows the matchup (and the few Meta Knight players that know the matchup really well as well) tells me that Meta Knight ***** him really badly.

The only problem with Alabama is that too many of us wanna be "cool" and not use a good character because he's good. Everyone just wants to choose characters they liked in games that came out six years ago, which is all good and fine, but they’re usually not good characters, which kinda sucks for players like me that wanna, you know, get really good at this game.

Then again, maybe you’re right and I just do suck.

This was a thread (for AL people) to discuss MK banning as a subject, not to discuss banning MK in tournaments in AL.

This^

We would never ban Meta Knight. For one, we'd be screwed at out of state tourneys. And two, our TOs are hard set against banning him. It's never going to happen, and I didn't suggest that we do ban him. I was just bringing up the subject because I was interested in what my fellow players thought about it. I gave my opinion (whatever it's worth), and I wanted others' too. That's it. It's nothing for random Florida players to get upset about.

 

[KOkingpin]

I enjoy MetaKnight now.

In Brawl+.
Just give in and stop play a game that was never meant to be a competitive game. And Play one that was created by the people who want a competitive game.

Lets face it Brawl promoted Camping over all else, we all know this. You can only be aggressive if you can hit the shield and run out. (that not being aggressive btw). Competitive wise brawl is not, i repeat, Is Not a fun game. Its boring to watch as duchock says. And if a single character can centralize a meta game so much then its bad. Needless to say you all know my stand on metaknight ban. but he not banned in my series anymore cause i dont play brawl and i dont care about its development anymore. And dont talk about melee shiek being over powered because she has a horrible matchup against fox. Melee's match up scheme had a triangle of power with inserts all around.

All and all brawl is pretty much a bad game. But if you like it than more power to you. The only reason I would enter in one is cause it was free lol. But if you wanna MM in Brawl+ hit me up. I'll take your money.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Yes Sandtru, the fact that most large tournaments keep MK unbanned would be pretty bad for AL if we banned MK.

Also, I'm seeing that most of the anti-ban voters are posting about how to beat MK, and that we should just have secondaries and not whine about the match-up, while most pro-ban people don't really mind facing MKs, they just want more growth, fun, and/or diversity.

if that's the case, then we should be discussing how to convince people to not play like asshooles. Banning a character doesn't remove the douche from the person. This is the main point that you all are missing.

Do you people realize how gay a person can be with snake? Seriously. I don't play that way, primarily because it's not fun for me, personally (and because I lack patience). Do you guys realize how gay Wario can be? Why aren't we discussing banishment of Wario? Seriously, someone answer that. Wario camping is just as stupid if not stupider than MK camping. Do you realize how retardedly gay a ROB can be? Do you realize how gay an olimar player can be. Olimar has one of the most ******** camping games in Brawl. Why aren't we discussing banishment of Olimar?

How come we didn't ban Jigglypuff and IC's in melee. Seriously, NOBODY likes to fight jigglypuff or Ice Climbers. It's pretty much not fun to fight those characters at a tournament level. How come we didn't ban Peach/Samus dittos in melee? They are boring as ****. As mentioned before Fox can be awesomely ******** as well in melee.

This is just a huge bandwagon that has spiraled to the point where people just shout BAN MK without even thinking about what they are saying and why they actually want him banned. I mean if people actually made decent arguments about it, that would be one thing.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

Then again, maybe you’re right and I just do suck.

tldr

10char

 

[Master Raven]

I really don't think fun factor should ever be a criteria for banning anything in a competitive environment.

 

[Duchock]

I really don't think fun factor should ever be a criteria for banning anything in a competitive environment.

That is a good point. I didn't mean for my point to turn into "ban him cause it's boring," but in retrospect, that seems to be what it started off as. Competitive doesn't have to = exciting some of the time. Just look at golf... I would try to make a metaphor between Smash and Golf, but I'll spare ya'll the trouble of reading it.

 

[PolMex23]

oli vs mk not THAT bad i took seibrik to last stock high percent

ill say what i said before

living in alabama doesnt provide proper matchup experience to effectively choose a stance on the matter, imho

Cuz seib is dumb an plays a style which allows everyone to have a chance to beat him

Lets face it Brawl promoted Camping over all else, we all know this. You can only be aggressive if you can hit the shield and run out. (that not being aggressive btw). Competitive wise brawl is not, i repeat, Is Not a fun game. Its boring to watch as duchock says. And if a single character can centralize a meta game so much then its bad. Needless to say you all know my stand on metaknight ban. but he not banned in my series anymore cause i dont play brawl and i dont care about its development anymore. And dont talk about melee shiek being over powered because she has a horrible matchup against fox. Melee's match up scheme had a triangle of power with inserts all around.

.

truuu

Yo the fact is this. If you want to have a chance against every Mk player learn to play Snake,Wario,(Falco(gotta be so amazing) and Mk vs Mk. If not you wont get top anything.

Why? Mk played as a campy an punish base only style will beat every character in brawl except those 4.

Street Fighter 4 is garbage. MvC 2 has more lee way than Brawl, along with CvS2 and 3rd strike.

Melee is such a better game, way more balanced. But, Mk is just a horrible thing.

Along with Mk D3 is also a joke. (agrro Mks are fun to fight against. the others not so much)

 

[Sandtru27]

lol Tommy beat seibrik's MK in tourney with Ike

i just always find that hilarious

don't act like wario is super good; he's okay

 

[BigLøu]

We should just ban every chacrter that isnt luigi and wario

i got ya gmoney

 

[Sandtru27]

We should just ban every chacrter that isnt luigi and wario

fix'dddddddddddddddddddddddddd