To everyone involved in AL's smash scene

[Pika_Cam]

That's like...every internet argument in existence.

One thing I don't understand is why the mk ban issue is heating up now. If anything, genesis results should have cooled it down.

It probably would have if three of the top four weren't mk players.

 

[Will_]

That's a perception problem. 3 of top 8 were mk. Shortening it to top 4 is just as easy as viewing only snake's placement.

i.e. there are no mk's in the #1 spot.

 

[Pika_Cam]

That's a perception problem. 3 of top 8 were mk. Shortening it to top 4 is just as easy as viewing only snake's placement.

i.e. there are no mk's in the #1 spot.

True, I'm not trying be deceptive or anything. I'm just pointing out that spots #2, #3, and #4 were all occupied by the top MK players, which makes me think that Ally is one of the only non MK players that can stand up to the top MKs.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Well, I went into some detail earlier, although I don't know if you caught that post. I'll be happy to go into some of his safe options, but first let me reiterate some of the points I made earlier.

1) He has an unusually easy time planking, while still avoiding breaking any edge grab limits. He is also at an advantage on the ledge whereas most characters are at a disadvantage.

As mentioned, planking as a stalling manuever is banned. So this is kind of like saying "ice climbers are broken in melee because they can freeze glitch you".
Stalling has always been banned and tournaments that don't completely ban planking are run by stupid TO's and as such, they're rule set should not be considered when discussing MK bans.

2) He breaks edgehogging on stages where he can glide under the bottom and grab the other edge if he misses.

Pit and Rob can do this just as easily.

3) His recovery is phenomenal. He has five midair jumps, 2 glides, and all 4 special moves that have excellent recovery potential.

Ok, he's a good character. We know this already. Dedede's grab is phenomenal. Snake's tilts are phenomenal. Wario's shield pressuring is phenomenal.

4) He has no bad matchups and no bad stages. Counterpicking is part of brawl whether you'll admit it or not. It's there to balance the set in case one person feels they could do better with a different matchup if they lost the first round. Counterpicking has been part of smash tournaments since the first game. Although precedent in other games may be different than this, we should rely on precedent from our own series first. When a MK goes into a set, that player has a guarantee that they will have at worst an even matchup and will not play on any unfavorable stages. No other character in the game has that luxury.

Counterpicking is IN smash. But its baseless to say that it's what holds the game together. That's just something pro-ban people made up to have another thing to say in their argument, it has no foundation to it. It's the same as saying up-b's were made for recovery so using momentum canceling breaks the game. Again. 64 Pikachu. No counterpicks. No bad matchups. Same series.

Now then, the reason I say Metaknight has lots of safe options is because he has tons of virtually lagless high priority moves. He can cancel the lag from his shuttle loop, tornado, and drill rush, which all have lots of priority and lots of knockback where shuttle loop is concerned. He has a super fast and long range down smash. 4 of his aerials are lagless and high priority, where nair has some lag. His down and forward tilt are fast with priority and range for the ftilt. He has glide attacks from the glide and shuttle loop that will knock you back too far to shield grab AND can be comboed into down smash. My point is that MK has an abnormal amount of safe moves that aren't punishable except when the player screws up.

All of those moves can be punished. You can block d-smash, as well as all of his aerials and punish them with pretty much any quick move (at least one of which every character in the game has) you want. You can shield grab glide attack. You can punish tornado as well. Drill rush is a bad move to use as attack BECAUSE of how easily its punished. apparently you can cancel it on platforms or something but I've never seen any one use that. Last hit of f-tilt is extremely punishable. D-tilt is a frame trap but several characters have frame traps.
Learn the game.

The question isn't whether Metaknight is beatable. Metaknight is obviously beatable as displayed by great players like Ally. The question is whether MK ruins certain aspects of the game enough to ban him. Think about everything in the game that we ban. We ban items. We don't ban items because you can't win with items turned on. We ban items because they detract from what the majority of players believe should be the focus of the game. We ban stages. Just like items, stages can take away from what we believe to be important in the game. We ban stalling. We ban stalling because it takes away from the fighting, which is what we perceive to be the most important aspect of brawl. It takes skill to use items effectively, do well on banned stages, and it even takes skill to stall. It takes skill to use Metaknight at mid and high level of play, but he decreases the quality of the game because he detracts from other aspects we deem important: mindgames, spacing, tech skill, etc. He decreases the importance of these aspects just as items or a funky stage would.

Since this argument isn't supported by any facts, I could respond similarly, No he doesn't.

It's actually completely ******** to say that MK detracts from mindgames/spacing/tech skill. It's probably the most ridiculous of all the pro ban arguments.

 

[theONEjanitor]

It probably would have if three of the top four weren't mk players.

5 or 6 of the top 10 in herb2 melee results were falco players

 

[Will_]

True, I'm not trying be deceptive or anything. I'm just pointing out that spots #2, #3, and #4 were all occupied by the top MK players, which makes me think that Ally is one of the only non MK players that can stand up to the top MKs.

Good point. I can't think of much that can beat the top mk's aside from top snakes and possibly top diddys. Then again, that's how it should be when the best players pick the best characters, but I do see the discouragement that creates.

 

[theONEjanitor]

True, I'm not trying be deceptive or anything. I'm just pointing out that spots #2, #3, and #4 were all occupied by the top MK players, which makes me think that Ally is one of the only non MK players that can stand up to the top MKs.

There's nothing wrong with that.
it's like that in every competitive community for everything ever made that ever was or will be competitive.

The best basketball player who shoots normally will always beat the best basketball player who shoots backwards. because its the BEST way to shoot. maybe we should ban the best way to shoot the basketball.

 

[Pika_Cam]

T1J, honestly I'm tired of debating this. I've been doing so for the past few days and it's utterly pointless. The SBR will never have the 2/3 vote they need to ban MK, and they won't listen to the fourth poll in favor of banning him. Considering they won't ban him nationwide, I don't think we should ban him in our state for reasons I've stated several times. If our players travel OOS, they will be inexperienced in the MK matchup and will be at a disadvantage.

 

[Sandtru27]

pika cam you sound like such a *****

stop whining and play or don't play lolololol

 

[Winnar]

Janitor your sig is all kinds of bawwww

Srsly what's up with that

 

[Pika_Cam]

pika cam you sound like such a *****

stop whining and play or don't play lolololol

Ok, seriously, **** this community. I'm out.

 

[_Keno_]

Ok, seriously, **** this community. I'm out.

Don't worry, that guy is just a complete *******. That is all he has been doing since this thread was made.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Janitor your sig is all kinds of bawwww

Srsly what's up with that

The brawl community is lame, and because of that the game's going nowhere. It's a sad story really.
even if MK doesn't get banned everyone will still have this mindset where they say lul MK = auto win lul you can only win with MK lul its okay if I lose to MK because he's broken lul and tournaments in general will just turn into a joke and they kind of already are. and this whole things is based on a. brawl players not understanding that competitive communities don't work by banning things you don't know how to deal with and b. brawl players falling into BARLW LAWL mindset and not taking the game seriously so instead of actually learning decent strats, people learn how to stall the game and do stupid infinites and that's why no one is really good at this game except a few people <3 reflex <3 kismet <3 lou <3 will because there's nothing useful on smashboards except a bunch of people saying MK has unpunishable moves and everyone else saying "LOL NEW INFINITE ON ROB"...deadly cycle i guess

and it sad story because brawl is a good game.

 

[Winnar]

The brawl community is lame, and because of that the game's going nowhere. It's a sad story really.
even if MK doesn't get banned everyone will still have this mindset where they say lul MK = auto win lul you can only win with MK lul its okay if I lose to MK because he's broken lul and tournaments in general will just turn into a joke and they kind of already are. and this whole things is based on a. brawl players not understanding that competitive communities don't work by banning things you don't know how to deal with and b. brawl players falling into BARLW LAWL mindset and not taking the game seriously so instead of actually learning decent strats, people learn how to stall the game and do stupid infinites and that's why no one is really good at this game except a few people <3 reflex <3 kismet <3 lou <3 will because there's nothing useful on smashboards except a bunch of people saying MK has unpunishable moves and everyone else saying "LOL NEW INFINITE ON ROB"...deadly cycle i guess

and it sad story because brawl is a good game.

Well on the plus side the AL smash community is pretty cool IMO :D

You've got your whole apartment, Cheap, ofc Will and reflex as well as the awesome GA people who come down to the occasional tournament.

And once Jeff, Robert, and I come we'll be cool too :D

Also there's Moogle who is doles out the wisdoms with his kupos and such.

Also scourge is awesome for his many upsets as Bowser...

Woah there are too many to name :O AL is awesome :D

I dunno, focus on the cool people because the not cool aren't worth worrying over :D They're not the ones who are going to ruin Brawl because Brawl's not going to change. The source code is all there on your disk so you can do with it as you will. Plus you and George run most of the AL tournaments so it's not like a nationwide MK ban would have much effect here. Even if SBR said you should ban MK at tournaments it's not like they could or would want to enforce it. It's ultimately the TO's choice whether to have items on or off, which stages to ban or not, which events/side-events to run or not run. Everyone in AL who is pro-MK ban has also stated that they are not opposed to MK legal tournaments, they just would prefer MK banned so it's not even a terribly big deal to them.

Besides come on Brawl's not so much serious business :D

I talk forever sometimes sorry ;-;

 

[munkus beaver]

I got no mention in that post, this community sucks, I'm never coming back ever, see you guys at TSC5

 

[Winnar]

I got no mention in that post, this community sucks, I'm never coming back ever, see you guys at TSC5

TCS6*

munkus is awesome*

okay happy geez you're such a woman

Next time...

 

[Sandtru27]

Don't worry, that guy is just a complete *******. That is all he has been doing since this thread was made.

lol i just hate when people ***** and moan over MK

i mean get over yourself

MK is mad good with no clear bad matchups but it isn't like that hasn't happened in other games

he's still beatable so put up or shut up and leave

it's not like this game is good anyways lol

</3

pretty sure no one here even knows if i'm credible LOLOL

edit: besides, game communities are a dime a dozen and EVERY single one has problems

brawl community would be better if more people were chill and didn't whine over things they find somehow unfair

don't make brawl into what it's not... it's fun but it's not a great competitive game so don't go through all these dumb lengths to get a more "balanced" game

accept things as they are, for this case

 

[Winnar]

edit: besides, game communities are a dime a dozen and EVERY single one has problems

brawl community would be better if more people were chill and didn't whine over things they find somehow unfair

don't make brawl into what it's not... it's fun but it's not a great competitive game so don't go through all these dumb lengths to get a more "balanced" game

accept things as they are, for this case

Dude.

Sandtru speaking truth and wisdom.

You so crazay.

Mindgames leading people on like that only to turn it around.

 

[Handorin]

I'm proban on MK because I bet M2K would quit brawl and focus on Melee more.

 

[Duchock]

I'm proban on MK because I bet M2K would quit brawl and focus on Melee more.

Good reason.

 

[Winnar]

I'm proban on MK because I bet M2K would quit brawl and focus on Melee more.

...

oh snap

 

[DanGR]

One thing I don't understand is why the mk ban issue is heating up now. If anything, genesis results should have cooled it down.

Second post in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903

The rest of you guys, no. I'm not arguing/debating anymore. I'll let what actually happens in Alabama do the talking. If nothing happens? Ok, I was wrong.

 

[Sandtru27]

Dan...GR, holding it down for just dealing, i see

edit: handorin, lol

edit: winnar, it's just that i don't care to take things that don't matter seriously

it's just a game at the end of the day

people take things how they like

i simply make jokes, whether or not they're funny

i think if i cared like some other people who play this game... i would've quit or punched MYSELF in the face a long time ago hahahahhah it's all a joke

 

[munkus beaver]

Second post in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903

I stopped reading that when the statistic used was "Look at the top four placement!"

Yes when you engineer stats, they will say whatever you want them to say.

 

[Winnar]

Second post in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903

The rest of you guys, no. I'm not arguing/debating anymore. I'll let what actually happens in Alabama do the talking. If nothing happens? Ok, I was wrong.

Because of your avatar I totally thought you were Will_

XD

 

[DanGR]

Munkus, you stopped reading before the important part. 3 Meta Knight players placing in the top 4 isn't very significant at all when you look at what else was mentioned. If you do read the rest of it and nothing else in the post makes you raise a brow, then fine; whatever. I don't really care if you change you mind. I just thought I'd link Will_ to what I thought was a very good explanation of why many people are still upset over MK, "even after Genesis".

Because of your avatar I totally thought you were Will_

XD

Lol, me too. I thought I was Will_ when I saw one of my earlier posts the day after I changed it. He had a similar looking avatar at one point in time...

 

[munkus beaver]

I stopped reading it because it's clearly biased information and the value judgments that it places are thus bogus. I'm not going to waste my time trying to sift between fact, psuedo-fact, opinion, and skewed data.

I think, it is my opinion and belief, that trying to ban MK is both futile and foolish. A waste of time and energy. The Snake paradox still stands.

 

[BigLøu]

wtf is a snake paradox.

 

[_Keno_]

wtf is a snake paradox.

I was wondering this, but I thought it may be common knowledge and I would look dumb. :embarrass

But I would either say its

A. Snake has a good match-up vs Metaknight, so Metaknight can be countered.

or

B. Once metaknight gets banned, snake will dominate the scene.

Neither are true though.

 

[Sandtru27]

duh Lou... it means that you can't kill Ocelot in MGS3

 

[Winnar]

I was wondering this, but I thought it may be common knowledge and I would look dumb. :embarrass

But I would either say its

A. Snake has a good match-up vs Metaknight, so Metaknight can be countered.

or

B. Once metaknight gets banned, snake will dominate the scene.

Neither are true though.

Munkus's snake paradox is that he believes that mediocre players can pick up snake easier than metaknight, that snake will propel mediocre players farther in placings than metaknight will.

I'm not completely sure if there's enough (or any) substantiating evidence for that claim, though >_>

It also doesn't really...have much to do with the MK ban I don't think...

 

[munkus beaver]

The Paradox: Pushing to ban MK when the best player in the world is a Snake.

Snake does well against MK. A snake player has consistently beat the top MK players (see Genesis). Snake has been easier for people in this region to pick up as an alternate than any other character. Snake was SS tier up until M2K represented MK early on and many of the other top players followed suit.

The "Snake Paradox" is that Snake can, and does, beat MK and will completely dominate the tourney scene if MK's knees are broken. The snake paradox nullifies most every pro MK ban statement about how he changes the metagame because Snake defines the CP metagame just as much as MK does.

 

[Handorin]

Doesn't D3 do really well against Snake though?

/brawl ignorance

 

[munkus beaver]

D3 does really well against Snake. Falco does really well against D3. Paper rock scissors double blind pick whoever picks right wins!

 

[BigLøu]

Now im not pro-ban or anything munkus, but doesnt that mean that snake would have a matchup that snake mains would have to worry about, thus not dominate the scene?(snake and mk is pretty much even, but i would give the advantage to mk.

 

[Will_]

Lol, me too. I thought I was Will_ when I saw one of my earlier posts the day after I changed it. He had a similar looking avatar at one point in time...

lol which one was that?

I'm thinking of changing it again since nobody likes angry jessie.

 

[munkus beaver]

Now im not pro-ban or anything munkus, but doesnt that mean that snake would have a matchup that snake mains would have to worry about, thus not dominate the scene?(snake and mk is pretty much even, but i would give the advantage to mk.

They would just switch to Falco to handle DDD.

Look, if MK got banned I would bet dollars to donuts that all the MK mains who are just out for picking the 'best character' will go for Snake and his tourney representation will shoot up to such absurd lengths that it will dwarf everyone else.


And if you are of the opinion that MK has any even matchups, then you can't support the pro-ban movement with a straight face without riding the short bus. Here's a soundbite for you: If MK is beatable, he's not bannable.

 

[DanGR]

lol which one was that?

I'm thinking of changing it again since nobody likes angry jessie.

I remember someone in AL/surrounding areas with an avatar of MK using his down taunt. I thought it was you. Maybe it was Nintendoboyyy's avatar...

 

[Winnar]

I remember someone in AL/surrounding areas with an avatar of MK using his down taunt. I thought it was you. Maybe it was Nintendoboyyy's avatar...

I dunno, it just seems like a Will avatar XD

 

[theONEjanitor]

They would just switch to Falco to handle DDD.

Look, if MK got banned I would bet dollars to donuts that all the MK mains who are just out for picking the 'best character' will go for Snake and his tourney representation will shoot up to such absurd lengths that it will dwarf everyone else.


And if you are of the opinion that MK has any even matchups, then you can't support the pro-ban movement with a straight face without riding the short bus. Here's a soundbite for you: If MK is beatable, he's not bannable.

no munkus you've got it all wrong
this community thinks
"everyone plays this character" is a good reason to ban him

what? no of course he's not broken. Akuma in super turbo was broken, he's not THAT good. What? oh no of course he has SOME difficult matchups, sure. what? well of course he can be BEATEN. don't be silly. yes, he should be banned. why?

and then this is where the absurdity and fabricated stats/attributes come in.

*rolleyes*