To all the Smashers that have chosen not to wavedash, etc...

[SirroMinus1]

stop playing good is thats what your saying?

 

[JohnPants]

Well, if it has to be "legitimate", then nintendo could just publicly endorse the advance techs. Then no one would feel like it's wrong to use them, right? This time around they'll just probably outline them in the instruction booklet so they don't seem like this big mysterious secret anymore.

EDIT: lol bold

Perhaps, but you have to admit that these techniques are often pretty complex and unwieldy...you wouldn't want to put "double jump cancel fast fall l-cancel"ing into the instruction manual. However, if they chose to take the "basic" (normal) techniques in Melee and change them up and add more to Brawl (again, I'll use modifiable B-moves as an example), I would certainly prefer that.

But that's just how I play. I prefer to learn how to better utilize the techniques the developers intentionally put in the game than learn how to double jump cancel fast fall l-cancel. It's just my preference though, and it's hard to argue against the advanced techniques...I'm just trying to explain why I personally don't enjoy going that deep into the game.

It's not as black and white as hacks or cheating, there is no right or wrong. Which is why this is pointless

 

[red stone]

I don't like being cheap, personally, but I'm all for mindgames. That's one of my favorite aspects of the original Smash, and more so in Melee.

what happens when they are one and the same

 

[greenblob]

Nintendo practically said, "We want you to play the way you want, discover new things, and make the game better than we originally made it," when they made Melee. Z-canceling, a glitch, turned into L-canceling, edgehogging is recognized as an official tactic, and much more depth was added in general.

Besides, I consider it dishonorable to not do your best and use advanced techniques. In fact, I'd call that sandbagging.

 

[TastelessRamen]

I dunno, I've been playing Melee since the day it came out, my friends play a few times a week...I'd say we're all very skilled at the game, definitely not "casual". I don't think it's right to assume that just because I, for example, choose not to use advanced techniques that that instantly implies that I'm not an advanced player.



Haha, well, you may be right...I really have no way of knowing. But there is something to be said about mindgames, which I would say is one my favorite aspects of the game. I still think I could pull my weight around, but again, I have no way of knowing. I would definitely not cry if I lost, as I would expect to.

Just to let you know, if you don't use advanced techniques, you are casual. Why are you casual? Because any player worth his salt who knows them will completely obliterate you.

Hey, if you play basketball and refuse to learn how to dunk because it's "dishonourable." you can't expect your opponent to agree not to do it as well. If he is good at dunking, it's completely ridiculous to say you want to have a competitive match, but to make it fair he can't dunk. He's going to dunk because he can, and he's going to beat you mercilessly.

By the way, even if he didn't dunk, he'd probably win. HIs familiarity with the advanced facets of the game makes him better at the basic ones as well. Same goes for Smash. Ken will beat you l-cancel and wavedash or not... badly.

And let's face it, the real reason you don't use advanced techs is for the same reason most people don't dunk. You can't.

 

[Revven]

Here's the way I see it: You play your way and I play mine. If you win, great! I could care less as long as I was a decent opponent without using too many adv. techs. Unlike you, I actually try to use some of them and others I succeed in perfectly using. Advance Techs. aren't just exploits or wavedashing, there's teching and also short hopping. Oh and GASP shuffling is a combination of L-Canceling and Short Hopping which are totally fair in the way you'd be playing.

Me? I short hop, tech, wall jump (who doesn't? lol), edgeguard, edgehog (though I never do it right, I at least try), L-Cancel, and...I know how to wavedash but I don't know when to use it effectively or when I should use it. Point is, most of the techs I use either were apparent in the first game or first appeared here and are still used in fair play. I don't compete for money, but, I at least try to win. I have the competitive spirit but I don't compete.

My point is, advance techs are actually used in your "honor" code. You use them all the time and you don't even realize it. "What adv techs?" Is what you might be asking. Well, let's see, teching is one! Wall jumping is another (I'm pretty sure anyway), and short hopping is another (I don't see why no one would use this in fair play, it's pretty obvious and pretty easy to do). Though, I do understand your viewpoint, I used to be like that. Thinking I could impress the people that use adv. techs while I don't.

Fact is, I go against someone who does use these techniques, better than me (and even wavedashes) we have really good matches and I've beaten him quite a bit too! But, some times, he comes out on top because he used Fox.

Anyway, I used to be like you but no more. I don't use all Adv. Techs and nobody said you had to use them all to be competitive. At least, use L-Cancel, it makes comboing EASIER.

 

[TastelessRamen]

Perhaps, but you have to admit that these techniques are often pretty complex and unwieldy...you wouldn't want to put "double jump cancel fast fall l-cancel"ing into the instruction manual. However, if they chose to take the "basic" (normal) techniques in Melee and change them up and add more to Brawl (again, I'll use modifiable B-moves as an example), I would certainly prefer that.

But that's just how I play. I prefer to learn how to better utilize the techniques the developers intentionally put in the game than learn how to double jump cancel fast fall l-cancel. It's just my preference though, and it's hard to argue against the advanced techniques...I'm just trying to explain why I personally don't enjoy going that deep into the game.

It's not as black and white as hacks or cheating, there is no right or wrong. Which is why this is pointless

I hope you also realize that every single thing in the game was intended to be there besides wavedashing.

L-cancelling was put in on purpose (it was in the first one too), fast fall was put in on purpose, a short hop was too.

The only thing in the game at all, that perhaps was not intended is wavedashing.
So if you want to play the game, "As the developers intended." You should be doing everything but wavedashing.

How's that?

PS. Sorry for double post.

 

[Tank McCannon]

But that's just how I play. I prefer to learn how to better utilize the techniques the developers intentionally put in the game than learn how to double jump cancel fast fall l-cancel.

You do realize that advanced techniques are just combinations of other techniques that the developers intentionally put in the game, right?

 

[JohnPants]

Isn't it interesting that the original poster here is the same guy who conducted that annoying demo hoax.

Understand, wave-dashing, L-cancelling(which WAS intended to be in the game btw), shffling, ect...

These are things that keep the game interesting for advanced players, and allow the level of technical skill possible to continue to challenge people who have mastered other aspects of the game.

They make the game better, I would've gotten bored long ago if it weren't for them. If you're not doing them, and you're not bored by now, than you probably haven't mastered other techniques like advanced smashers have.

ONce you learn how to do these techniques you will see how much depth and replay they add to the game. They make the game ; deeper, more engaging, more interesting, more tactical, more strategical, more skill based, in short... BETTER

You have some good points in there, but I don't agree there is a point that you cross where you "master" the basic techniques and then become bored...at least not for me. That's not how I look at it...even if I kick some *** at utilizing the air dodge, there's always a better way to use it. You can always get better, even if you don't look elsewhere for depth, and that's what's kept me engaged during my Melee matches, even after 6 years of not wavedashing, etc.

But Klowne also makes a good point that perhaps I just don't like very technical fighters. One of the main aspects of Smash Bros that I've always liked is that while it's, technically, very basic compared to Street Fighter 3, for example, it allows for much more improvisation because of how it's set up. I think that learning techniques and memorizing combos that sound like they should be from a 2D fighter isn't what I'm looking for in Smash, and that's one of the reasons I choose not to.

But honestly, I'm getting pretty confused and muddled on where on stand on each aspect of this topic. By now I've probably said some stuff that I actually don't agree with and should probably drop the topic.

It's been fun though, I'll be back

 

[JohnPants]

Ramen, I'll say that I'm perfectly fine with fast fall, short hop, and L-canceling. I use those techniques, but...honestly, it's hard for me to think in detail on this topic anymore.

The original point was to ask specifically why you would ignore Brawl if they chose to not include wavedashing. That's all. And now I've spent far too much time not finding that out.

I know I've probably contradicted myself somewhere around here and my points haven't been the best, but can you really blame me? It's hard to keep track of everything in this cluster****. :D

But I will say that I personally think memorizing hitboxes and frame info is a bit excessive. So hah!

Cheers guys, gotta go

 

[Timat the Slayer]

Last I checked, L cancel was meant to be in the game... and in theory, the wave dash was never an exploit, or glitch, just a result of their physics engine and character specific traction/momentum...

Plus, stuff like Teching, DI, Ledge Canceling, short hops, are also implemented into the game on purpose, so one way or another, they are all legitimate 'techniques' that can be used by all players... I mean, if they programmed it INTO the game, and EVERY CHARACTER can do it...well, obviously it isn't a glitch, cause only certain characters would be able to do it.

Case in point. Super Wave Dash. Only Samus can do it, and it is..kinda a glitch. ((ok, ok, technically yoshi can do it to, but nobody cares about him >_> ))

As far as edge hogging, and chain grabs, well...those aren't really 'techs' so I can see how they can 'offend someone's morales', but, people have gotten so used to doing it, it just doesn't matter anymore.

..What was this topic about again? Oh, right. As far as these things being in brawl, I can say, it honestly doesn't matter. One way or another, new things will be created, some things will be forgotten, others will be replaced, it doesn't matter what they add in or add out, because it'll still have something gay, or even more gay.

Your morales won't change how other people play they're game, so really...you just have to accept what comes out of it. End of story. ::Shrug::

 

[Armagopalypse]

Wavedashing....no wavedashing, does it really matter. In the end if the devs decide to put it in people will use it, and if they don't people won't. I honestly doubt that people won't buy Brawl because there is no wavedashing (or any other advanced tech for that matter), since no one else will be able to use it either!

Now, on a personal note, I never even knew what an "advanced tech" was up to a few weeks ago when I joined this forum. Like others have said, I only really play against one other guy who doesn't even own a Gamecube, and we only pull out Melee like once every few months when we're bored. So I won't have a seizure if advanced techs aren't in Brawl. Actually, I'll feel better since I won't have to endure getting killed time and time again by advanced techers.

 

[Zink]

I simply don't understand this. You aren't playing the game to look pretty, or to be honorable, or to conform to an arbitrary set of rules, you're playing to win. That's all there is to it, and anyone who does not take full advantage of the game in this way is by definition a scrub.
Also, have fun fighting a decent Falco if you won't edgehog him cuz you just removed his only weakness.

Hm.. actually, back when Dylan was.. um.. how should i put this.. more radical, i tried to argue something sort of similar to that, my main point was:

good times, good times.

 

[Klowne]

good times, good times.

The dylan era: so much drama it carried over to other boards that weren't even themed around smash

 

[Xanderous]

Refusing to wavedash when playing Smash is a lot like refusing to dunk if you're playing basketball. The developers didn't know people could jump up and drop the ball in the basket, but it worked and now people do it.

If you refuse, you're intentionally limiting yourself, and if you ask me, that's more dishonorable than anything else.

 

[PurpleStuff]

That's actually a bit a contradiction; edgehogging was actually something the devs put in. They even give you a bonus for doing it and everything.


On topic, I never used any techniques like wavedashing and L-cancelling because i was quite isolated. and now its just too late for that.

Owned. That's all there is to it. Owned.

 

[SmashChu]

lol good luck online.

Dude, could I barrow your crystal ball?

 

[Armagopalypse]

Honestly, I don't think that someone who doesn't use advanced techs will get owned too often at all. I'm going to venture to say that most people who play Smash Bros. are "casual" players, as in someone who just always played Smash with their friends now and then, did what they could, and if you starting saying stuff like wavedashing and edgehogging to them it'd sound like a foreign language. Basically, a lot of people don't even know what an advanced tech is. So, sure, the people who do use them will have an advantage, and eventually they might catch on and start using a few techs themselves. But a lot of people will either learn about them once online starts, or never use them in their life.

 

[red stone]

Dude, could I barrow your crystal ball?

no, but you can borrow my quija board

 

[Armagopalypse]

no, but you can borrow my quija board

Wow, you actually spelled that right. For that you get a cookie.

In the end, I think the only advanced tech in danger of getting booted is wavedashing.

 

[JohnPants]

Now that I've had time to think about it, wavedashing is probably the only technique I would say I feel "strongly against", if any of you actually care. As if that matters. This is a game.

Let's all just be excited about Brawl together. I can't wait! Pokemon Trainer still gives me a warm feeling inside.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Last I checked, L cancel was meant to be in the game... and in theory, the wave dash was never an exploit, or glitch, just a result of their physics engine and character specific traction/momentum...

Plus, stuff like Teching, DI, Ledge Canceling, short hops, are also implemented into the game on purpose, so one way or another, they are all legitimate 'techniques' that can be used by all players... I mean, if they programmed it INTO the game, and EVERY CHARACTER can do it...well, obviously it isn't a glitch, cause only certain characters would be able to do it.

Case in point. Super Wave Dash. Only Samus can do it, and it is..kinda a glitch. ((ok, ok, technically yoshi can do it to, but nobody cares about him >_> ))

As far as edge hogging, and chain grabs, well...those aren't really 'techs' so I can see how they can 'offend someone's morales', but, people have gotten so used to doing it, it just doesn't matter anymore.

..What was this topic about again? Oh, right. As far as these things being in brawl, I can say, it honestly doesn't matter. One way or another, new things will be created, some things will be forgotten, others will be replaced, it doesn't matter what they add in or add out, because it'll still have something gay, or even more gay.

Your morales won't change how other people play they're game, so really...you just have to accept what comes out of it. End of story. ::Shrug::

This is true. First off L-cancel was even in the first game. How could short-hop be a glitch?. A character cant jump shorter just because you pressed the button lighter, it was obviously programmed. WD isnt a glitch. Its just jumping and doging. There is no going through walls, or killing people in one kill, its just jumping and dodging, making i look like your are sliding fast. I can tell you that brawl will end up having more of this "glitches" that melee had, so really you might whine more in brawl, Seeing how they have added footstool jumps, gliding and other crazy things we still dont know about.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

*begins to cry*

I hate you all. Why are there SOOOO MANY WAVEDASHING THREADS?!?!?!?!

PLEASE, ENOUGH!!!

 

[PurpleStuff]

Now that I've had time to think about it, wavedashing is probably the only technique I would say I feel "strongly against", if any of you actually care. As if that matters. This is a game.

Let's all just be excited about Brawl together. I can't wait! Pokemon Trainer still gives me a warm feeling inside.

Yeah! Let's all just be excited about Brawl together!

But on the way, let's make a topic or two about how I hope it's not exciting for "insane" players who compete too hard. While I'm at it, let me tell those players that what they think is "exciting" is not really exciting, and while they "think" they are having fun, they are really just deluding themselves and being cheap man-whores to a game that owns them. But let me tell them that I am better than them along the way. And let me tell them crazy people that they need to play with honor and courage. In fact, I really don't think we should play as Peach, Sheik, Zelda, Jifflypuff?, or any female players that might be in Brawl, because isn't it unethical to hit a woman?

By the way, I'm not actually attacking anyone. And it is impossible to beat me in an argument because I will just half-way cede my point everytime, and contradict myself in every other post! I mean- no, I won't!

 

[Tank McCannon]

Now that I've had time to think about it, wavedashing is probably the only technique I would say I feel "strongly against", if any of you actually care. As if that matters. This is a game.

Let's all just be excited about Brawl together. I can't wait! Pokemon Trainer still gives me a warm feeling inside.

This guy's too nice.

You rock.

 

[FlatSoda]

Whether wavedashing is in or not, you've chosen to do it or not, it won't stop the way certain people play.

the arguements are pointless, let people play the way they want to.

 

[Mckillyou]

I know how to wavedash, I just dont. I do L-Cancel and Crouch Cancel though, with the occasional edgehog. And, by the way, edgehogging IS meant to be in the game, considering that if you read the in game section describing how to get different bonuses, there are bonuses for edgehogging. And thats exactly what it calls it.

 

[JohnPants]

Yeah! Let's all just be excited about Brawl together!

But on the way, let's make a topic or two about how I hope it's not exciting for "insane" players who compete too hard. While I'm at it, let me tell those players that what they think is "exciting" is not really exciting, and while they "think" they are having fun, they are really just deluding themselves and being cheap man-whores to a game that owns them. But let me tell them that I am better than them along the way. And let me tell them crazy people that they need to play with honor and courage. In fact, I really don't think we should play as Peach, Sheik, Zelda, Jifflypuff?, or any female players that might be in Brawl, because isn't it unethical to hit a woman?

By the way, I'm not actually attacking anyone. And it is impossible to beat me in an argument because I will just half-way cede my point everytime, and contradict myself in every other post! I mean- no, I won't!

Ouch, I guess I asked for that, letting my guard down and all...

But I still think my basic feeling on the matter has merit. Hopefully you can glean the intent off of my many replies in this mess. Or just answer my original question. Or just move on.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

WhoTF plays a game "as it was meant to be played"? On top of that, who even knows how the creator "wants the game played"? Choosing not to use advanced techniques is just fine, but you forfeit the right to whine and complain when you are annihilated in competitive play (not that we'd let you do that anyway).

 

[ksadkiller]

why does everyone think the developers didnt mean to put wavedash in? a wavedash is just a really fast airdodge into the ground. and the developers made the choice to have the character slide instead of stopping or whatever. wavedash is not a glitch and maybe the developers didnt think it'd be such an essential part of some peoples strategy, but it's not like they didnt wanna put it in there.

now lcancel is a different story

 

[Tanea]

well i say play like you like i do some avd. techs but not all of them i know what the creator is talking about and also what the other people are talikng about .
if someone played a person that used avd.techs the most likely will loose but when avd.tech become band
then the person that learned to play with outthem would win


ha that's an idea they can have a special melee or brawl to where you can't use avd. techs what do you guys think

 

[Adi]

No, in fact L-cancel is most definetely intended considering Z-cancelling was in Smash64 and they nerfed it for Melee.

well i say play like you like i do some avd. techs but not all of them i know what the creator is talking about and also what the other people are talikng about .
if someone played a person that used avd.techs the most likely will loose but when avd.tech become band
then the person that learned to play with outthem would win


ha that's an idea they can have a special melee or brawl to where you can't use avd. techs what do you guys think

This is one of the dumbest posts in the history of smashboards.

 

[PPNY]

I think we are making this a bigger deal then it is suppose to be guys. I mean, is it really important to be fighting with eachother about the fact: Will wave dashing be in or not?

Okay advance techniqes are not playing cowardly or cheating. If two people know how to wave dash, shuffle and all that other stuff, why wouldent they use it against eachother? They are playing the game the way they like too, and if that is somehow against the unwritten code of Smash Bros...then we need to wright down a new code.

Honestly, im not very good at wavedashing myself. Im practicing at it, and im trying my best to learn all the other techniques. I have two friends, who love to one on one matchs with me, no items, on tourny levels and such, and we have great fun going all out.

Then I have my other friends, and inculding the two above, that love to do four player matchs, any kind of rules if we want to. I dont wave dash against them because most of my friends dont know how and I just like to play around their skill level so everyone has fun. Not saying I can beat all of them with my eyes shut. My friends are all very good players ^^.

Anyways the point is, Brawl will have wavedashing or it wont. If it has wavedashing...cool, then everyone will buy it. If it dosent have wavedashing...then non wavedashers will buy it, wavedashers who dont really care will buy it, and people who are obssesed with wavedashing probably wont. Thats their choice and if you dont like it, who cares, its not your place to tell them they are fools or idoits.

I guess ill get flammed, but eh. Sometimes having an opinon can be a B**** -_-.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

I think I am beginning to see a pattern here. basically, people that dont play with people that use advanced techs, dont use advance techs. I play with about 5 or 6 people. Its competitive and quite intense, but not super serious or for money or anything. Infact, I had a little tourney last night with 8 people and we had a blast! None of us used advanced techs nor could we if we tried. And quite truthfully, if I were to now have someone to play who did use those advanced tactics and stuff, I would try to beat him without doing the same thing, just to prove I didnt need that stuff to win.

But, If I were to start wavedashing and L-canceling and stuff like that, it just wouldnt be fun and it wouldnt be fair to everybody else. I would probably win, yes, but at the same time I would

A. get everyone pissed at me
B. have no one want to play with me any more.

Everyone would just call it cheap (which it would be, because I would be the only one doing it).

Whats the fun in that?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

PPNY, I think you might have said it all.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

Then I have my other friends, and inculding the two above, that love to do four player matchs, any kind of rules if we want to. I dont wave dash against them because most of my friends dont know how and I just like to play around their skill level so everyone has fun. Not saying I can beat all of them with my eyes shut. My friends are all very good players ^^.

Thats similar to what I do. Except that I cant wavedash, but if I could then I still wouldnt use it against my casual friends.

 

[Adi]

/sigh, for the love of god can all of you guys stop using throwing around the word wavedash as a synonym for advanced techniques, it's about to make my head explode =/

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Sorry Adi...I won't do it again...

<_<

Man, that's embarassing, being told on the internet...Ouch.

 

[PPNY]

Its okay Ogre Deity Link. I still think your a good person :D.

 

[raymanbud714]

Personally i don't like wave dashing and all those other techniques but i have tried one match with wave dashing... i didnt bother practicing it tho because i didnt like it