Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Sovereign]

Rubiss that video is by Nethy Shadowclaw, according to the account name.

Also, why is it that Greninja's Nair doesn't have much landing lag, but if you use it off stage... you're dead?

 

[Prometheus_98]

I probably should not be here, but oh well. I get an adrenaline rush when I play fox because his fast speed and the fact he dies so easily makes the whole match super intense. Bu then I like wario for his dance around, frame traps, and all around awkwardness. I heard greninja was pretty interesting, with a bait and punish kind of style like wario, but hes also fast( like fox), but I really don't wanna get invested into another character if their potential isn't higher than who I'm currently using. Can he handle a majority of the match ups? I don't mind like a few 7-3's because that's what pockets are for.

 

[Prometheus_98]

The reason for this^^^ is most likley because nair is active for so long. On stage you have the ground to lessen the amount of time you're doing it. Off stage, there's nothing to stop you, so you have to wait out the whole move.

 

[Sovereign]

I probably should not be here, but oh well. I get an adrenaline rush when I play fox because his fast speed and the fact he dies so easily makes the whole match super intense. Bu then I like wario for his dance around, frame traps, and all around awkwardness. I heard greninja was pretty interesting, with a bait and punish kind of style like wario, but hes also fast( like fox), but I really don't wanna get invested into another character if their potential isn't higher than who I'm currently using. Can he handle a majority of the match ups? I don't mind like a few 7-3's because that's what pockets are for.

Greninja actually has a good MU ratio across the board. He's only got 2 maybe 3 bad MUs that I would switch to another character for. Outside of that, his potential is among the highest in the game, due to how "on point" you need to be to capitalize on his combos.

 

[free33]

Can someone please explain the physics of the hydro pump? When pump the water up at someone (I go down) it pushes them up. But when I pump down, it still brings them up.

 

[Rubiss]

Can someone please explain the physics of the hydro pump? When pump the water up at someone (I go down) it pushes them up. But when I pump down, it still brings them up.

You push them in the opposite direction you travel. Think of it like this...

Let's say Greninja is on the left and Lucario is on the right. Greninja uses hydropump and moves left. The stream pushes him left but the stream itself travels right. Your opponent, Lucario, is pushed right, the direction of the stream's travel. So with this in mind, if you are going down, the stream is pushing up. If you are going up, the stream is pushing down. That's generally how you want to think about it. Your opponent is going to go in the direction opposite of your input. You hit them with the stream while going diagonal left? They're going diagonal right. Make sense?

Now here is where it gets complicated. Your opponents momentum and DI also affects where they go. Let's say Marth is using his up special and you happen to push him up and right. Marth will go extremely high into the air, as he is going upwards.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I'm pretty sure it just always pushes up and away from Greninja

 

[FullMoon]

Hydro Pump always sends at a 58 degree angle.

 

[ligersandtigons]

so what are some common tips on playing neutral with Greninja?

 

[Ninja Asashin]

Does the nair have any practical use? I can't seem to follow it up with much.

N-air has it's uses. Mainly a good cross-up tool, which follows up with a turn around F-tilt, D-tilt, Jab and Grab.

so what are some common tips on playing neutral with Greninja?

Greninja is a hit and run character.

- Water Shuriken to wall out your opponent and great to rack up damage
- N-air is not safe on shield but is good when you cross-up your opponent which leads to a turn around F-tilt, D-tilt, Jab and Grab
- B-air is not safe on shield but racks up damage
- F-air is safe on shield also a good spacing tool and a kill move

 

[ligersandtigons]

so should my neutral mostly be around spamming water shuriken and running away until i see a clear opening to go for a grab or something?

 

[Ninja Asashin]

so should my neutral mostly be around spamming water shuriken and running away until i see a clear opening to go for a grab or something?

Basically but mainly to predict what your opponent is going to do. By throwing out water shuriken and walling out your opponent gives you a chance to think of what to do next and if you spam water shuriken it gives the opponent time to power shield and approach
you. Greninja's neutral game is pretty much technical and you have to be on your toe and react to your opponent every move and punish your opponent.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Basically but mainly to predict what your opponent is going to do. By throwing out water shuriken and walling out your opponent gives you a chance to think of what to do next and if you spam water shuriken it gives the opponent time to power shield and approach
you. Greninja's neutral game is pretty much technical and you have to be on your toe and react to your opponent every move and punish your opponent.

okay, thanks

any tips for approaching?

 

[Ninja Asashin]

okay, thanks

any tips for approaching?

For approaching

- Dash Attack is pretty good it can lead to Jab
- N-air crossed up leads to a turn around F-tilt, D-tilt, Jab and Grab
- F-air auto canceled
- B-air

 

[ReRaze]

http://youtu.be/iVZ9VVcwlco

how did this Grenjina (@istudying ) cancel his footstool jump like that?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

http://youtu.be/iVZ9VVcwlco

how did this Grenjina (@istudying ) cancel his footstool jump like that?

Platform canceling

 

[ReRaze]

Platform canceling

Wasn't that removed in Smash 4 :o (pls tell me I'm wrong)

so all he did was hold down after the footstool and run off?

 

[free33]

Hey greninjas. So i have been putting some work in on greninja's Uair Spike. The reason I am able to get a Dsmash after it is usually because they miss the tech. but Greninja's Ftilt Jab Locks. Can I jab lock after the Uair Spike? this is a much better option than uncharged Dsmash because it allows me to either 1. charge a smash or 2. shorthop nair into Usmash or 3. use he Ftilt for extra damage, then Utilt and reset anyway. Also, how many times can Ftilt jab reset?

 

[ReRaze]

Hey greninjas. So i have been putting some work in on greninja's Uair Spike. The reason I am able to get a Dsmash after it is usually because they miss the tech. but Greninja's Ftilt Jab Locks. Can I jab lock after the Uair Spike? this is a much better option than uncharged Dsmash because it allows me to either 1. charge a smash or 2. shorthop nair into Usmash or 3. use he Ftilt for extra damage, then Utilt and reset anyway. Also, how many times can Ftilt jab reset?

I'm pretty sure at the percent uair forces a tech, ftilt stops resetting.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I'm pretty sure at the percent uair forces a tech, ftilt stops resetting.

That's correct, however, you can time the FF from U-Air so that they don't bounce by the time the Smash comes out(4th hit I think).

 

[free33]

Is there anything fast enough to jab lock out of the Uair spike?

 

[ReRaze]

Is there anything fast enough to jab lock out of the Uair spike?

Perhaps, fast fall uair (> footstool) > dair spike > footstool > fast fall bair lock/nair to usmash.

 

[Steve.Stone]

So jab locking is when you hit your opponent with a small knockback attack (such as your first jab.) And it forces them to do a regular getup right? And we can do this by doing a fast fall up air spike?

 

[ReRaze]

So jab locking is when you hit your opponent with a small knockback attack (such as your first jab.) And it forces them to do a regular getup right? And we can do this by doing a fast fall up air spike?

Well yes it is hitting by a weak attack such as a jab but....
-Greninja's jab doesn't jab reset
-Greninja jab resets using ftilt (at low percents), dair (low-mid percents) and bair 1st and 2nd hits (all percents). Interestingly his rapid jab also resets but is unusable.
-Fast fall uair spike is used to setup these jab resets by forcing an opponent to tech. Although uair does have spiking properties and could possibly also be used to jab reset on platforms, i'll have to double check. (e.g fast fall uair spike, fall through platform uair). Generally it can be used as a jab reset setup, not as the resetting move itself. (Footstool resets are the way to go though tbh)

 

[Steve.Stone]

Oh so that's how the footstool --> Nair --> down air works, because down air can reset? And are you saying footstool can reset just by itself?

 

[ReRaze]

Oh so that's how the footstool --> Nair --> down air works, because down air can reset? And are you saying footstool can reset just by itself?

yep thats how it works because dair resets. also I should mention that all spikes can reset too if they are weak enough.

Footstools can't reset themselves but opponents can't tech footstools.

 

[Steve.Stone]

oooooooooooooooooooo. I get it now. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't have the DLC yet so can anybody tell me how to escape Bayonetta's ladder combos using side b and Witch Twist? I know you Shadow Sneak but I need to know the direction to escape each and what the timing is.

 

[HoSmash4]

What are greninja's weaknesses?

 

[Guimartgon]

What are greninja's weaknesses?

Even though he has amazing footsies his frame data lacks a fast reliable aerial, this makes it hard to face rushdown characters like sheik or fox, or just characters with a similar speed and frame data like sonic. That is his biggest weakness. That and somewhat of a lack of a general safe neutral game. Fair is his only true safe on shield aerial. Nair is somewhat safe but you need to either hit with the most outwards part of it on the corner of their shield(therefore you would be barely missing if your opponent didn't shield or you can try to cross them up and make it hard to punish but still punishable with fast ftilts/fsmashes like pikachu's.

So yeah, not having a great tool to win the neutral unlike most top tiers and not being able to do hit and run with many tools makes it so that you have to have great footsies with the frog and play a very cautious game until you find an opening. Greninja does have an amazing advantageous state since his moves flow extremely well, he is a really good juggler and is really good at applying pressure to cornered foes thanks to his amazing speed.

 

[BuffGreninja]

Basically, there was a time where I tried to main Greninja and had the c-stick set to tilts/attack and I realized two things:

Firstly, the command for hydro-pump works entirely different than any other up specials.
With other characters, if you input a perfect diagonal (45%) in an upwards direction you're guaranteed to get your up special.
The exception to this is Greninja where a perfect diagonal input will result in your side special instead.

This is a bit of a problem because I've grown quite used to how up specials work in the series so it seems weird that I have to unlearn it for just one character.
Also because it's resulted in accidental KOs.

One could say that this exists to 'nerf' Hydro Pump's recovery by making it difficult to angle immediately, but by this reasoning, other attacks that would benefit from being angled in such a way (teleports, PK Thunder, Agility) should posses the same irregular input.

The second thing is that if you input a perfect a perfect diagonal in any direction with a stick set to attack you will get a jab instead of any directional attack.
You can even get a jab while walking (but not running).

Also the commands will still come out wrong if you use air attacks.
I've had a few situations where, I've tried to perform a dive kick only to get a nair (and punished).

I get that the term used while changing controls is called 'attack,' but getting a neutral from a directional input just seems so unintuitive.
On top of that, it seems like getting angled tilts with the stick is impossible for some reason.

I've tested this with both the Gamecube and classic controllers.
I have no idea if this effects High-Capacity Pump or Single-Shot Pump.

Is it just my game or has anyone else experienced this?

EDIT: Just noting that I'm aware that the issue with the tilts are not Greninja exclusive.

 

[ShadowKing]

How should I put these OK so Greninja is a technical character like Fox and (tbh)Mewtwo from melee.My reasoning is that Greninja has more options in moves like his side b if you hold it longer in you go farther.So out of all of these he's technical not broken or werid.Just takes tons of learning

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Basically, there was a time where I tried to main Greninja and had the c-stick set to tilts/attack and I realized two things:

Firstly, the command for hydro-pump works entirely different than any other up specials.
With other characters, if you input a perfect diagonal (45%) in an upwards direction you're guaranteed to get your up special.
The exception to this is Greninja where a perfect diagonal input will result in your side special instead.

This is a bit of a problem because I've grown quite used to how up specials work in the series so it seems weird that I have to unlearn it for just one character.
Also because it's resulted in accidental KOs.

One could say that this exists to 'nerf' Hydro Pump's recovery by making it difficult to angle immediately, but by this reasoning, other attacks that would benefit from being angled in such a way (teleports, PK Thunder, Agility) should posses the same irregular input.

I feel this. Hydro Pump has some BS built into it (like how you go horizontally into a ledge and you die), but it's jsut what it is.

The second thing is that if you input a perfect a perfect diagonal in any direction with a stick set to attack you will get a jab instead of any directional attack.
You can even get a jab while walking (but not running).

Also the commands will still come out wrong if you use air attacks.
I've had a few situations where, I've tried to perform a dive kick only to get a nair (and punished).

You just gotta get used to this. It's got its uses and it makes doing some inputs a little easier once you lab it out a little bit. It does this for all characters, btw.

I get that the term used while changing controls is called 'attack,' but getting a neutral from a directional input just seems so unintuitive.
On top of that, it seems like getting angled tilts with the stick is impossible for some reason.

I've tested this with both the Gamecube and classic controllers.
I have no idea if this effects High-Capacity Pump or Single-Shot Pump.

Is it just my game or has anyone else experienced this?

You totally can. With Fox, you can do a side tilt with the c-stick and then press an angle down/forward the same direction and you'll get the angle. I do it all the time.

 

[Megamang]

You should take this to the Greninja character discussion, this area isn't for that kind of thing. I'll go ahead and tell you though, this has been known for a long time. I presumed it has something to do with the was Shadow Sneak starts instantaneously but still allows you to do other inputs. Like what you said, other teleports would benefit from instant diagonal angling. But shadow sneak is truly unique in having a hidden startup that is cancelable and allows you to do other movements.


It isn't an attempt to nerf greninja btw, its more than likely an error. Just learn to input slightly differently if you want to make it work. Every character has niche input differences. If they wanted to nerf him they'd probably start with the glitch that allows him to escape combos no one else can.

 

[BuffGreninja]

I feel this. Hydro Pump has some BS built into it (like how you go horizontally into a ledge and you die), but it's jsut what it is.

I'll go ahead and tell you though, this has been known for a long time. I presumed it has something to do with the was Shadow Sneak starts instantaneously but still allows you to do other inputs. Like what you said, other teleports would benefit from instant diagonal angling. But shadow sneak is truly unique in having a hidden startup that is cancelable and allows you to do other movements.

Mhm.
I guess I'm a little annoyed since Greninja seems to have an arbitrary element to his up special, and it feels like it should have been addressed/patched.

It does this for all characters, btw.

I know, but I guess I didn't specify it correctly in the OP.

You totally can. With Fox, you can do a side tilt with the c-stick and then press an angle down/forward the same direction and you'll get the angle. I do it all the time.

Ah, my mistake. I haven't used it too much while it's been set to tilt, so I wasn't sure.

 

[Machii]

I am pretty sure that Pikachu's quick attack has the same issue as greninjas triple jump; though, I wouldn't consider it an issue myself. Comparatively, Greninja's TJ is much easier to direct than Pikachu's, as it provides more of a buffer between the initiated input and the follow up input required to direct it. I am going to assume that you play with tap jump. I would recommend using anything other than the stick to jump.

 

[Ninja Asashin]

For me, Greninja can get a lot off of Hydro Pump and tilt stick. Greninja can mix-up his Hydro Pump to throw off his opponent while getting back to the stage, it is also good on stage for movement opinions and it can set-up for different things. Since, Greninja slides after landing on stage he can move his opponent right where he wants them then slides under them and get a fully charge Usmash sweetspot or not. With that Greninja still has one thing with Hydro Pump that most of us don't like which is when he try's to recover he sometimes hit his head on the side of the stage which put him in hard fall and SD. The reason for that is there is a small part of his hitbox and ledge with doesn't connect and cause him to hit the stage instead of snapping to the ledge. Also tilt stick is just better for Greninja and many character. It's easier to get his tilts out then with smash stick or with the analog stick and the A button. His Uair, Bair and Fair feels a lot better with tilt stick.

 

[BuffGreninja]

I am pretty sure that Pikachu's quick attack has the same issue as greninjas triple jump; though, I wouldn't consider it an issue myself. Comparatively, Greninja's TJ is much easier to direct than Pikachu's, as it provides more of a buffer between the initiated input and the follow up input required to direct it. I am going to assume that you play with tap jump. I would recommend using anything other than the stick to jump.

From what I tested Pikachu's recovery follows the same input for other up specials, unlike Greninja.
Also, how would tap jump affect the input for up special?

 

[free33]

hey guys what do you think is the viability of jab cancel into perfect pivot up tilt? would it work? if it does, it could be a very useful combo starter and maybe a kill confirm mixup with jab cancel-PP Utilt-Uair. thoughts? or does it just not work with the frame data? i feel like even if they airdodge, you could probably use the landing lag to get the utilt anyway. the only way out i see if it doesn't really work is a quick aerial like a mario nair.

 

[Machii]

From what I tested Pikachu's recovery follows the same input for other up specials, unlike Greninja.
Also, how would tap jump affect the input for up special?

I use Gren's TJ from short hop a lot.