Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Lavani]

Dair does more damage, halts your momentum so you don't need to worry about timing your fastfall/attack, and the rebound puts you in perfect position to soft nair which leads into pretty much whatever you'd need it to.

Bair requires a specific hitbox to lock as well, but at higher percents it does let you lock for an fsmash kill. I don't think it's ever more rewarding than dair aside from that.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Footstool>D-Air is a guaranteed lock at the ground at the right percent. B-Air locking is much more situational and hard to do. Dair locks result in a decent combo with good damage output, while a bair lock can result in a stock.

 

[ItzzGaming]

Side B seems to have a lot of ending lag for me, and half the time I try to use it I end up getting punished. I think I should use it less often since I've been using it once every 10 or so seconds but eh. I also don't know any killing moves for him (my aim is terrible with Dair and I almost always end up killing myself >.>'). Would back throw work for that as well as fsmash/usmash?

 

[BigHairyFart]

F-Smash/U-Smash are Greninja's go-to kill moves. SS is a good kill move, but only if you almost never use it. By using it just once or twice, your opponent will always have SS in the back of their mind as an option you have. You do not want this. If you never use it, then the opponent will likely completely forget about it, which means you have a very fast, very strong kill move with outstanding range at your disposal that they will never see coming because it's never been a threat until that point.

As the name implies, you gotta be sneaky with it.

EDIT: U-Air is also a fantastic kill move, and U-Throw kills around 170ish no rage

 

[Enigma227]

I was looking at greninja combo videos and I was curious as to why, during footstool combos, people use Dair mainly to jab reset. The problem I've found with Dair is that it only resets for a smallish percent range (compared to other moves). The first and second hits of Bair on the other hand reset for a much longer percent range. It's a bit more difficult to hit with but is possible. Is this difference in difficulty the only reason?

EDIT: oh and also, with Bair, you are already on the ground after they are locked. With Dair, you go flying into the air for a bit, which lessens the amount of time you can "prepare" the next part of the combo, whether it be nair, a charged Fsmash, dtilt, or something else.

The point of is that you don't need to reset at higher percents, once you get good enough at the early percent you should be able to convert from your footstool combos to dairs and up airs and just juggle them until a killing percent. No need for back airs

 

[TDK]

Hey there, new Greninja main. I've noticed that Greninja doesn't have too many garunteed combos off of throws, but D-Tilt has extreme combo potential, including into a sweetspotted up smash as a kill setup. Is this just opponent's DI?

 

[Blaziking17]

Hey there, new Greninja main. I've noticed that Greninja doesn't have too many garunteed combos off of throws, but D-Tilt has extreme combo potential, including into a sweetspotted up smash as a kill setup. Is this just opponent's DI?

Most of the time, yes. Typically, Dtilt into USmash works at 60-120% (Search the Greninja True Combo thread for more details)
I would watch how the opponent is DI'ing first after the Dtilt.
Greninja doesn't have many strings off of throws, but he has a few setups into a grab. For instance, one of my favorites starting from 0% is Sweet SHFFNair -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Ftilt or FSmash.
I'd say Dthrow and UpThrow have better combo potential than the others. Idk about anyone else, but I just use Forward and Back Throws just to either move opponents away from me or move them offstage.

 

[ItzzGaming]

Aight, after playing with the frog for a couple days I realized I suck at both of these
-Grabbing successfully
-Edgeguarding
-Short hopping

I think the first and last one come down to practice more but any tips for edge guarding other than hydro pump shenanigans? I've just been using up smash when they're coming from the air :/

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Aight, after playing with the frog for a couple days I realized I suck at both of these
-Grabbing successfully
-Edgeguarding
-Short hopping

I think the first and last one come down to practice more but any tips for edge guarding other than hydro pump shenanigans? I've just been using up smash when they're coming from the air :/

If they're coming in low (especially on stages you can go under) run-off B-air can be really good due to it's speed and ability to stage spike. If they come in high or try to re-grab the ledge, D-smash covers the ledge well and has decent reach. Short hop Shadow Sneak is also a good tool if they're far out still due to its high KB and hard to predict range. I'd also argue that WS is really good as it has good range, is very safe, and at full charge will hit almost any character hanging from the ledge.

 

[Rubiss]

I am having a rather difficult time with Sheik as Greninja. I often get out camped with needles and have trouble punishing anything she does. Along with that I have issues edge-guarding her.

I am not sure what, if any, out of shield options Greninja has versus Sheik. I've been using tilts, mostly dtilt and utilt, but her jab often beats it when I try. I do most of my damage with little pokes, grabs and shadow sneak. I am finding it hard to combo Sheik as well. I don't follow up with uair due to vanish. Many times I've been thrown or knocked into vanish while in hitstun.

Substitution is something I want to use more, but the startup lag seems a bit unforgiving when paired off against Sheik's frame data.

I am not sure how to approach this match up. I tend to play aggressively, despite camping with shurikens at times.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I am having a rather difficult time with Sheik as Greninja. I often get out camped with needles and have trouble punishing anything she does. Along with that I have issues edge-guarding her.

I am not sure what, if any, out of shield options Greninja has versus Sheik. I've been using tilts, mostly dtilt and utilt, but her jab often beats it when I try. I do most of my damage with little pokes, grabs and shadow sneak. I am finding it hard to combo Sheik as well. I don't follow up with uair due to vanish. Many times I've been thrown or knocked into vanish while in hitstun.

Substitution is something I want to use more, but the startup lag seems a bit unforgiving when paired off against Sheik's frame data.

I am not sure how to approach this match up. I tend to play aggressively, despite camping with shurikens at times.

Sheik is considered to be Greninja's worst matchup, so there isn't much people can say to help. However, here's a couple things just going off of your post.

1: Jab is your fastest OoS option for an attack, but even that is pretty slow, so if you do get caught in shield you're likely better off just getting away.

2: U-air is probably one of your safest options in the air due to its speed and disjoint, and shouldn't be getting you hit by vanish unless you are chasing Sheik way to far into kill range.

3: Substitute is really not very useful against Sheik. All of her attacks have very low ending lag, meaning she can usually just shield it.

 

[Rubiss]

Sheik often combos me into vanish during hitstun (like 80-90%) for fairly early kills. I am not chasing her off of the edge, as it's impossible to gimp her. I'll try using jab more often. I wish Greninja had better OOS options. Substitute, I'm learning, is useless against Sheik. I just feel as though this matchup is utterly hopeless. It feels as though Sheik beats Greninja in every way.

 

[Cold_Ninja_Emperor]

what is the base of greninja combo i would like to learned more about this charactere so i could main him perfect and also what is greninja flaws ? and do someone know how to do a running shadow sneak

 

[Rubiss]

Running Shadow Sneak was patched out and no longer works. As for learning more about Greninja, try...

http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...read-s3-week-6-yoshi-bowser-12-28-1-4.369356/
http://smashboards.com/threads/myst...tion-at-thread-updated-12-29-15-1-1-3.368764/
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/

 

[Cold_Ninja_Emperor]

that what i thought ( that running shadows sneak was patched out) thanks for the help

 

[Sovereign]

Hello Greninja boards!

I have a quick question on preference and the most widely considered control schemes for maximizing (combo) consistency with Greninja. I've been grinding out the timing for a lot of things like SHFFNair - FootStool on Pikachu, to commit it to muscle memory, but I'm wondering if there's another way that's a bit more comfortable, beyond the default control scheme.

 

[free33]

Hey greninjas. so I have never seen any greninja make use of RAR back air. It looks like it would combo well out of Nair and Down tilt, and maybe even down throw, but nobody ever does it. Does it not combo? i would test it myself but i suck at RAR.

 

[Steve.Stone]

I've done back airs out of down titls and throws at higher percentages but they weren't RAR, just from a standing position. Doing it out of Nair would probably work at higher percentages.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Hello Greninja boards!

I have a quick question on preference and the most widely considered control schemes for maximizing (combo) consistency with Greninja. I've been grinding out the timing for a lot of things like SHFFNair - FootStool on Pikachu, to commit it to muscle memory, but I'm wondering if there's another way that's a bit more comfortable, beyond the default control scheme.

L/R set to Special and C-Stick set to tilts for C-Bouncing Water Shuriken.

 

[Sovereign]

L/R set to Special and C-Stick set to tilts for C-Bouncing Water Shuriken.

Is "C-Bouncing" something that can be found in the AT thread? I've known of Wave-Bouncing using the C-stick (set as Specials), but this term is new. And I'll give the L/R set to Special a try. I've been watching a lot of iStudying, Techei, Venia, and PhazeX3R0 to get an insight on how he should be played, and have seen a style range just as wide as his combos, which gets me hyped to think that Greninja isn't isolated to a single paradigm.

I'm going to be making an appearance on the boards a little more often, as I'm making the switch from ZSS to him. He's more fun, more rewarding, and as stated before, isn't restricted to a single style.

 

[11volt]

Something that might be pretty simple is confusing me.

One time, I was fighting a Greninja and as he hit me with a fully charged shuriken, he was able to run dash out of it (almost running with it) and follow up from the final hit. This was in 1.11 but I don't recall anything with his shurikens being changed over the updates since then.

It could be that I am missing something silly, but I really want to know how it works.

 

[Steve.Stone]

If you get the timing right it is possible to grab people right before/as soon as the final hit hits them.

 

[11volt]

If you get the timing right it is possible to grab people right before/as soon as the final hit hits them.

Do you dash out of it? What is the timing?

 

[Insightful]

What inputs do you use to move and Nair consistently without doing fair?

 

[Steve.Stone]

Do you dash out of it? What is the timing?

You're talking about throwing a fully charged shuriken and then grabbing the opponent as they're trapped in it right? Just run up towards them as soon as the move ends and you can move again, it is really hard to do consistently and probably factors in opponents size, DI, damage. I know it's easier to do with heavy characters like Ike and Bowser.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Is "C-Bouncing" something that can be found in the AT thread? I've known of Wave-Bouncing using the C-stick (set as Specials), but this term is new. And I'll give the L/R set to Special a try. I've been watching a lot of iStudying, Techei, Venia, and PhazeX3R0 to get an insight on how he should be played, and have seen a style range just as wide as his combos, which gets me hyped to think that Greninja isn't isolated to a single paradigm.

I'm going to be making an appearance on the boards a little more often, as I'm making the switch from ZSS to him. He's more fun, more rewarding, and as stated before, isn't restricted to a single style.

It was called 'C-Bouncing' over on the Sheik boards(the ones who discovered it). It basically is a grounded wavebounce that involves setting C-Stick to tilts.

C-Bounce Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-tech-c-bounce.409439/

Ignore anything mentioned as INC(Instant Needle Cancel), that is Sheik-only, but we can do the C-Bounce. It's good because you can dash at your opponent, then fade back while charging a shuriken, or if your running away you can reverse a shuriken without closing the gap between you and your opponent(what a normal B-Reverse would do).

 

[Sovereign]

Nice! Thanks for the info. I'll definitely have to lab this up, and figure out the best ways to make it work for me.

 

[LazyFrogRobot MKII]

Any tips for practicing nairs/dairs/anything into footstools? How'd you guys grind it out to embed the muscle memory into your head? Did you practice on random shmucks in online/locals or grind it out in the comboratory in training? Any combo/tutorial videos that helped you guys be able to do these setups at will?

I'm trying to find a way to start, but I'm having difficulty doing so, and would appreciate it greatly if I learned how someone else was able to immerse themselves with greninja's more advanced combos.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Do it in training against a CPU set to 'Control'. Start with someone not super light/super heavy or too floaty/too fast-fall-y. Mario or Yoshi would be good. Find a video of some cool footstool combo you like and focus on only that combo. Do it step by step.

Example: N-Air>FS>D-Air>WS>N-Air>FS>D-Ar>WS>N-Air>Running U-Smash

Looks intimidating at first but like I said, do it in steps. Start by just landing N-Air>FS until you can do it consistently. Then add the D-Air lock, then the Water Shuriken, and so on. That's what I did, and I've actually landed it in tournament multiple times. Once you feel comfortable with the technique of it, start applying it in matches against lvl 7-8 CPUs(emulating actual tournament matches). And I don't mean do nothing but that combo against the CPU, just play the match normally, but go for it when you can. At this point, you've mastered the technical part, so now you need to learn how to practically start it against an active opponent. Once you feel like you've 'mastered' it feel free to start grinding a new string in the same way.

 

[Twisted_Jokerr]

Question, on the Nair>Footstool part. Whats the spacing/timing to get the footstool. I mash jump but i just get regular jumps. Any tips to get it consistently?

 

[BigHairyFart]

You have to be moving into them during the nair, and I hold forward until I actually leave the ground, then return the stick to neutral. Mashing jump is really the only option.

 

[Twisted Jokerr]

hmm. alright. Do i have to fastfall?

 

[BigHairyFart]

No, the Water Shruiken IMMEDIATELY after the footstool stalls you just so that you are perfectly set up for another N-Air without fast falling.

 

[Twisted_Jokerr]

I meant the first nair. The nair that starts the combo.

 

[Sovereign]

Yes. You need to sweetspot it. The closer you are to Frame Canceling it, the easier it'll be to nail the following footstool.

At higher percents, you'll want to aim for the sourspot.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Okay, what's a frame cancel? it seems anytime a new tech is discovered, it goes unheard of for like months, then everybody(except for me) knows about it like it's basic tech.

 

[Rubiss]

Okay, what's a frame cancel? it seems anytime a new tech is discovered, it goes unheard of for like months, then everybody(except for me) knows about it like it's basic tech.

Some aerials auto-cancel when they hit the ground mid-animation. For Nair, if you look at Greninja's frame data it autocancels on frames 1-9, 40>. Basically if you hit the ground while doing Nair during those frames, it will auto-cancel and you will be able to react quickly. If you Nair too late, you'll be caught in end-lag and won't be able to get the FS (foot stool) in time.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Some aerials auto-cancel when they hit the ground mid-animation. For Nair, if you look at Greninja's frame data it autocancels on frames 1-9, 40>. Basically if you hit the ground while doing Nair during those frames, it will auto-cancel and you will be able to react quickly. If you Nair too late, you'll be caught in end-lag and won't be able to get the FS (foot stool) in time.

Greninja's Nair comes out on frame 12, and ends on frame 16, so he can't possibly autocancel from a shorthop AND hit the opponent

 

[Rubiss]

Greninja's Nair comes out on frame 12, and ends on frame 16, so he can't possibly autocancel from a shorthop AND hit the opponent

You can. People do it all the time. Nair true combos into dtilt and ftilt according to training mode. You have enough time to not only attack, but dash grab (not sure if true though) but footstool as well. Here. This is a video from.... a user. If I remember, I will edit this post with their name. Anyways, take a look at these 12 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtE-rYc8toU&t=19s

It is very possible to hit an opponent from a frame cancelled Nair. Unless I am misunderstanding what are you asking?

 

[BigHairyFart]

You can. People do it all the time. Nair true combos into dtilt and ftilt according to training mode. You have enough time to not only attack, but dash grab (not sure if true though) but footstool as well. Here. This is a video from.... a user. If I remember, I will edit this post with their name. Anyways, take a look at these 12 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtE-rYc8toU&t=19s

It is very possible to hit an opponent from a frame cancelled Nair. Unless I am misunderstanding what are you asking?

That's not an autocancel, nor is it a frame cancel, that's just N-Air having not much landing lag to begin with. Additionally, I've managed to find out more about 'frame cancelling'. It's basically landing just so that your landing lag and hitlag happen at the same time, rather than one after the other.