Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

Megamang

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Even though gren has mediocre OoS, your shield is your best friend. Dont challenge divekick, or bayo near the top in general. (Divekick combos still work on gren). Fair will get witch timed if youre predictable, use empty hops and lots of grabs to discourage WT.
 

Guimartgon

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Hmmm I played the best :4peach: in CO about a month ago on winners finals of my pool at a major. Nonetheless I lost. I then played our #5 Ranked player in friendlies cause he has a Peach too. From there I learned that Peach is actually scary as heck. She is a pretty good defensive character that can create a wall of strong hitboxes, namely Bair Fair and specially Nair (it's essentially lagless). She has average speed too. Essentially Peach's hitboxes will outvalue most of:4greninja:'s. So don't get hit, I found a very keep away hit and run style to be most effective. Space Fair to beat her on Air-Air situations when you get the chance and harass her with shurikens. If she stays afloat for too long and too close to you consider crouching and then utilt(if you have your Cstick set to tilts) to call her out since your tongue is a disjoint.
 

Katuro117

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Hi! Is there a thread related to Hydro Pump gimping? I kinda wanna try making a thread that tries to figure out how hard it is to gimp other characters with it. Asking so I don't go through the effort of posting findings when it already exists.
 

Guimartgon

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Can you guys give me constructive criticism on my Greninja?
Here's a recording from a tourney set I recently done: https://plus.google.com/114257724909279999129/posts/Np8amRxeUtQ
Well there's a long way to go. Playing with a GC controller will always be better than a 3DS imo but I understand if you can't afford a wiiU.
Anyways, you dropped some combos so I'd suggest working on those since every time you get a Nair you really want to squeeze as much damage as you can. There's a pretty basic Greninja combo thread in these boards to help you out. You also lack KO setups since you try to kill via Dair --> Fair/Bair a little too much and that's very risky. Some of the basic KO setups are:
Sourspot Nair(the one that does 6%) into Usmash. Down Tilt into Fair/ Usmash. Utilt --> Uair. There's plenty of other KO setups that can be found in the Greninja Kill Setup thread.

Now onto some more neutral game thing. I think you could use Shurikens more, against a big somewhat slow character as bowser in Final Destination, where he doesn't have any platforms to traverse, Shurikens are a godsend that will make Bowser have to fight really hard to get those grabs. You also don't use Greninja's Forward Air at all, which is by far his best spacing tool and can help keep people away from you while also dealing a ton of damage, having combo potential and being a sweet kill move. You lack some of the more basic tech skill, most notably short hopping. Short Hop Nair and Short Hop Fair are amazing and it's way harder to find an opening to get Full hop nair than short hop. You rely on Spotdodging a lot too and people will be punishing that at higher levels of play but for now I think you should concentrate on getting a better grasp of the character.
 

free33

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any tips on the cloud matchup? specifically for the neutral. He seems to just outrange me up close and in the air. His nair is too fast for my fair, and although I think I should just wait and bait in shield (cuz he can't really get much off grab), he seems too safe and I often get out ranged by a retreating nair, fair, or an ftilt. Should I be playing more of a campy game? due to greninja's poor oos options, how often should I be in shield in the neutral? Thanks!
 
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JesseMcCloud

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any tips on the cloud matchup? specifically for the neutral. He seems to just outrange me cup close and in the air. His nair is too fast for my fair, and although I think I should just wait and bait in shield cuz he can't really get much off grab), he seems to safe and I often get out ranged by a retreating nair, fair, or an ftilt. Should I be playing more of a campy game? due to greninja's poor oos options, how often should I be in shield in the neutral? Thanks!
I main Cloud, but I don't have too much experience in the matchup.
what I can tell you is that Clouds typically play better defensively, so use your superior agility to play defensively, poking him with shuriken when he limit charges. Once he has to approach, try to land the falling nair into footstool, if you can. If he slides, shield and grab.
 

free33

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Hey guys another question. after seeing this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYgX1-3MYF0 I was wondering if greninja had any moves that incorporate the Z-axis. The ones i could think of were Fair, Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash and shurikens. do these have any use? has anyone tested greninja's moves for going into the Z axis? could have some use in specific matchups (cloud, ness, etc.)
 

Megamang

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I believe f-smash's deadzone is a Z-axis issue, which means you could use it closer at Duck Hunt. Thats all I got.
 

E.D.N.D.N

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I use Fair a lot. It's reallllly hard to land, but it does great damage, can kill early, and is pretty much 0 risk. If you've conditioned them to buffer an imput and know they will getup as soon as they can, you can get it somewhat consistently (maybe 1 in 5) but guessing wrong isn't a big deal as it's safe on shield. When I'm guarding the ledge I switch off between trying to Dtilt the roll, fast fall uair the jump, grab/fair the neutral getup, shield and grab the attack, or ledge trump.
 
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Gonna reask since it wasn't answered too well.

How do you guys play the Peach match up? In neutral and footsies, especially.
I haven't played the best Peach (she was good regardless and knocked me out of Losers the first time I played her) but I found that it's better to just let her approach rather than taking the initiative yourself without focusing too much on punishing her landings. Her Nair is pretty much a great "get off me" move for just about any situation related to the air especially when landing.
If you can't calm the ants in your pants just approach her when she's in air with some Fairs or Bairs and punish her landings with shuriken. Basically just keep her in the air since her landing options (other than Nair) are slim to none.
She's super lightweight too, so keep that in mind if you land anything that usually leads to a string (be it a 2 hit string or longer) you might want to find out at what percentage up throw kills too. I've been relying on the usual 150% but I feel like she could die to it earlier.
 

BigHairyFart

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Opinions on the Cloud and Rosa MU?
Check the MU thread, IIRC someone thoroughly talked about Cloud there(I know I talked some on it). I find it 55:45 or 50:40 our favor, mostly because shurikens outrange everything Cloud has except Blade Beam which it just trades with(or beats if charged). We can also SSHC out of jab, Cross Slash, and D-Smash(?)

Rosa is tricky, but it got better with our recent Fair, Bair, and DA buff because it's now safer to smack Luma away with those. Rosa is also super light and dies way early, and Hydro Pumping her recovery is extremely effective(and hilarious). I'd say either 50:50 or 55:45 our favor.
 

C0rvus

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Would you guys say Greninja is good at footsies? I am concerned about his poor out of shield abilities, but if anything playing him would help me curb my defensive habits. I have been told by a friend that I should find 1 character and focus on them, so I figure Greninja is an option since I think he's quite good and can be defensive or apply pressure pretty effectively.
 

C0rvus

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So he basically has to rely mostly on defensive play? I suppose his moves don't really lend themselves to whiff punishing...
Thanks for answering. I'll consider that.
 

BigHairyFart

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Whiff punishing is actually one of his strong suits, since you can get a LOT of damage out of a nair. You just have to be defensive since Nair is a ****ty approach option.
 

AngelicWolf1

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Gonna reask since it wasn't answered too well.

How do you guys play the Peach match up? In neutral and footsies, especially.
I actually use Peach as a secondary and I have a little bit that I think I can contribute. You kinda have to play patiently against Peach, because if you're too aggressive, she will punish you for your over aggressiveness. Use shurikens when you can and go for trick approaches. She has a few OoS options, such as U-smash & up-B, but more advanced Peachs know to stay in shield and chill because they can't afford to fish or throw attacks out. In neutral, they focus on being hard to hit, with a mix of Smash thrown turnips, QFR (a movement technique that combines Float with Peach's dash dance) short-hop air dodges and once they get in, unlike Greninja, Peach focuses on staying in your face in order to get a shield break, and instead of just using a smash attack, Peach can possibly go for a Z-drop turnip footstool setup that can deal quite a bit of damage so it's a matter of evading Peach and being more tricky to approach than Peach. Peach has footstool combos that she can perform off of turnip throws, especially Z-drops, D-tilt and D-throw and if you're not careful, you can easily eat a good 40 to 50%. Neither of you will be fishing much because it's not good for you. In essence, play smart and patient. Peach can't afford to take too much damage and some Peach players know that they shouldn't float too much because it leaves them vulnerable. When Peach recovers she will most likely recover low because if she fights her way on stage she's going to eat too much damage. Hope this helps.
 
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So I've been playing Greninja for a while, and I decided I want to work on a secondary. I've narrowed it down to either ZSS or Mewtwo, and I was wondering which of those do you guys think complements Greninja better? As in, do better with his bad MUs, do better just in general, those kind of questions. To me, they both play similar to different aspects of Greninja's playstyle, being the defensive play with Mewtwo and punish game with ZSS. I just like both of them so much, but I only want to work on one and I just can't decide, so I was hoping for some guidance here. Thanks!
 

C0rvus

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Mewtwo sounds like a better choice in my opinion, if only because Mewtwo has a good Sheik matchup. However, ZSS has a strong Sonic matchup. Kind of a tough call. Perhaps try both of them, but since I am ignorant of Mewtwo's Sonic matchup, I cannot strongly recommend one over the other.
 

BigHairyFart

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Don't take anything seen on For Glory as being a true setup, literally anyone can make a cool combo video on For Glory. It might be a true setup at certain %s, but probably wouldn't last long before it becomes escapable.
 

eclipsis17

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Uptilt to FS is absolutely guaranteed and at a fairly wide range of percentages. Just because it doesn't work at every percent doesn't make it not a viable set up.

How about you don't dismiss things as For Glory shenanigans and actually lab it for yourself?

To answer the original question, try around 20% - 60% although it is highly character dependent as to which end of the range they fall near. Typically any lower and the footstool isn't guaranteed, any higher and they get out of tumble before they hit the ground.
 

BigHairyFart

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Uptilt to FS is absolutely guaranteed and at a fairly wide range of percentages. Just because it doesn't work at every percent doesn't make it not a viable set up.

How about you don't dismiss things as For Glory shenanigans and actually lab it for yourself?

To answer the original question, try around 20% - 60% although it is highly character dependent as to which end of the range they fall near. Typically any lower and the footstool isn't guaranteed, any higher and they get out of tumble before they hit the ground.
Well excuse me for not having access to my game right now, and thank you for the polite response :)
 

free33

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another question. is sourspot dair->footstool->dair spike confirmed on some characters? I feel like it would be, and i've been labbing it on ike for the past few minutes. It seems to be a very good setup. but the timing to hit the spike is very strict. It seems to be good even if you hit the sourspot, because then you can just Fastfall up air spike back onto the stage and continue from there. Anyway, this combo seems legit, and seems like a stylish way to end stocks early (around 60-70% depending on the character?) at the ledge.It seems like it definitely is easier on wider characters. If it is viable, when does the sourspot dair into footstool become confirmed?
 
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Hello, I have been maining Greninja for quite some time now, but I have come to a bit of a block. My tech skill is not the greatest. In fact, I am completely incapable of utilizing footstool combos or even perfect pivots. I am worried that this will hold me back as the meta progresses. Should I invest in a character with lower skill requirements, or stick with Greninja and find a way around this problem? Also, I play on 3ds because I'm too broke to get a wiiU, which makes this much harder to figure out.
 
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free33

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Hello, I have been maining Greninja for quite some time now, but I have come to a bit of a block. My tech skill is not the greatest. In fact, I am completely incapable of utilizing footstool combos or even perfect pivots. I am worried that this will hold me back as the meta progresses. Should I invest in a character with lower skill requirements, or stick with Greninja and find a way around this problem? Also, I play on 3ds because I'm too broke to get a wiiU, which makes this much harder to figure out.
use who you enjoy. I would try out combos that don't require precise footstools. work on Uair spikss, Uair spikes->SH dair spike combos, etc. the majority of people get by without footstool combos and perfect pivots. greninja is not inherently reliant on them either. He simply has a more deep combo game than most characters. Don't be turned away because you cannot master all that a character has to offer. I myself am in the same situation, where despite hours of practice, i cannot get Nair-Footstool down. instead, i learn other combos. Some footstool combos are easier, such as sourspot or sweetspot dair-> footstool or Utilt -> footstool. You could try those. But if you do not feel greninja is the character for you, then switch.
 
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use who you enjoy. I would try out combos that don't require precise footstools. work on Uair spikss, Uair spikes->SH dair spike combos, etc. the majority of people get by without footstool combos and perfect pivots. greninja is not inherently reliant on them either. He simply has a more deep combo game than most characters. Don't be turned away because you cannot master all that a character has to offer. I myself am in the same situation, where despite hours of practice, i cannot get Nair-Footstool down. instead, i learn other combos. Some footstool combos are easier, such as sourspot or sweetspot dair-> footstool or Utilt -> footstool. You could try those. But if you do not feel greninja is the character for you, then switch.
Thank you for the advice, it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't get it. I often get discouraged when I hear P2P with Gibus refer to footstool combos as being standard Greninja combos. I think that I will keep using Greninja, and I'll just have to compensate for not having those techniques by refining my reads and 50/50s.
 

BigHairyFart

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another question. is sourspot dair->footstool->dair spike confirmed on some characters? I feel like it would be, and i've been labbing it on ike for the past few minutes. It seems to be a very good setup. but the timing to hit the spike is very strict. It seems to be good even if you hit the sourspot, because then you can just Fastfall up air spike back onto the stage and continue from there. Anyway, this combo seems legit, and seems like a stylish way to end stocks early (around 60-70% depending on the character?) at the ledge.It seems like it definitely is easier on wider characters. If it is viable, when does the sourspot dair into footstool become confirmed?
Yes, sour dair>FS is true at certain percents, though if you mean going for FS>dair spike offstage, it can be true depending on the character. I doubt it works on everyone, but if you're going to use it offstage use caution, since if you miss you could easily SD.
 

Guimartgon

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Yes, sour dair>FS is true at certain percents, though if you mean going for FS>dair spike offstage, it can be true depending on the character. I doubt it works on everyone, but if you're going to use it offstage use caution, since if you miss you could easily SD.
Really? I thought FS Dair was true in all characters, maybe not on WFT? I've been trying to use FS as an OOS option since Greninja gets jab, sometimes Dtilt and not much more in terms of punish OOS.
 

BigHairyFart

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Really? I thought FS Dair was true in all characters, maybe not on WFT? I've been trying to use FS as an OOS option since Greninja gets jab, sometimes Dtilt and not much more in terms of punish OOS.
FS>Dair is probably true on everyone, though some characters might not grant you the spike every time. I was just saying that offstage dair is risky in general.
 

free33

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What are Greninja's best OoS options?
This is one of the weaker points in his game. The fastest is Jab at frame 3. None of his specials really help oos. You can use dtilt at frame 5 or dash attack at frame 7, but jab is fastest. His standing grab is frame 11, which is late relative to most, which doesn't help. People are currently researching footstool oos, which can combo into dair and possibly fast fall bair. The first two hits of bair combo into buffer turnaround dtilt and jab, both of which can be kill confirms. So this option is very viable at high percents. Dair is probably Greninja's most rewarding combo tool outside of low percents, so footstool oos is overall looking like a very good option if you can get it down. But at low percents you should probably just jab. If you want the grab, do jab 1 and 2 into grab. Good luck!
 
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Guimartgon

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What are Greninja's best OoS options?
As Free very well explained, the frog lacks in the OOS department by quite a bit, that's why you will probably hear Greninja mains about retraining their shield usage, since you're much better off maneuvering around your opponents hitboxes and using that as your chance to land a nair conversion rather than block. You still need your shield obviously, but if you think you can outspace your opponent and punish him in some other way, I'd rather go with that.
 
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