Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Halcy0n]

So I've decided to secondary Greninja, anything I should know?

 

[BigHairyFart]

So I've decided to secondary Greninja, anything I should know?

Don't ever do anything unsafe. Greninja is a punish character, don't be the aggressor in a match.

 

[Guimartgon]

So let's talk combo game:
As many of you probably know, there's a good amount of percents where Nair FS Dair locks work but then you can't follow up with Nair Usmash because your opponent is at too high of a %. I was practicing footstools on Corrin at 10%[where after the lock Nair Usmash doesn't sweetspot] and after the first lock I have issues landing sour nair to go for a second lock because Corrin's too tall. Nair --> FS --> Dair --> Nair --> Sour Usmash does 41%. I'm trying to mess around with Nair --> FS --> Dair --> PP Utilt--> Bair but sadly that's also 41%. I can't seem to get Corrin with the later part of utilt which would combo into usmash for a nice 53% combo.(I'm hitting with the very tip of Utilt, getting the early angle that leads to Bair, it can also connect into Usmash but I can't get it to true combo). Nair into Dash Attack Fair is not true but if it connects it's a 51% combo. Or you can try to go for the sweetspot Nair lock at a higher% (29%) which i do not know if it's true.

What are your guys' follow ups on those situations?

 

[Halcy0n]

Don't ever do anything unsafe. Greninja is a punish character, don't be the aggressor in a match.

So I should try a bait and punish playstyle with Greninja?

 

[BigHairyFart]

Kinda. The best way to describe it is hit and run, which kinda means the same thing. Use his mobility to slip in and out quickly

 

[luke_atyeo]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

 

[free33]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

hydro pump always sends the opponent at a 58 degree angle.

 

[young grasshopper]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

Sometimes shadow sneaking out of a multi-hit move can get you punished even harder.

 

[Guimartgon]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

May sounds dumb but: Nair is frame 12, stop acting as if it was a quick move, 4 frames of active hitbox makes it seem that way it's not.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

What are some ways Greninja can pressure people on platforms? Up-tilt doesn't shark through them unless I'm mistaken, and falling uair doesn't have much reward.

 

[BigHairyFart]

usmash or empty hops

 

[Guimartgon]

Greninja's pressure game on platforms is actually fairly weak tbh. Although on BF Utilt will shark them.

 

[Nameless Pariah]

What are some ways Greninja can pressure people on platforms? Up-tilt doesn't shark through them unless I'm mistaken, and falling uair doesn't have much reward.

uairing them from underneath scares them for some reason and is unpunishable

it doesn't really whittle away at their shield but it will if they just stay there and keep holding shield

 

[free33]

What are some ways Greninja can pressure people on platforms? Up-tilt doesn't shark through them unless I'm mistaken, and falling uair doesn't have much reward.

up tilt sharks bf platforms, cross up shield with bair, and fastfall uair actually does have use. at higher percents, when it puts them in tumble (when it starts forcing them to tech when you uair spike them) it actually trips them when they are standing on the platform, allowing for a bair, another uair, a fair, or you can read their getup with a shadow sneak. Also I believe that when an opponent is lying on the ground, you can get the strong hit of an up smash through the platform. I am not sure how viable this is, but you can lab it and see if this works fast enough. I actually find fastfall uair to be a lot more useful than people think.

 

[free33]

Hy guys question time. how viable is dtilt as a footstool setup? I was just labbing it, and it seems pretty solid. i mean, it's technically faster than Fair and Usmash, so does it work in a competitive setting?

 

[Nameless Pariah]

Hy guys question time. how viable is dtilt as a footstool setup? I was just labbing it, and it seems pretty solid. i mean, it's technically faster than Fair and Usmash, so does it work in a competitive setting?

Wish I could tell you :T

I don't lab enough and am still trying to learn the percentages for jab->-jan->-footstool

 

[eclipsis17]

Hy guys question time. how viable is dtilt as a footstool setup? I was just labbing it, and it seems pretty solid. i mean, it's technically faster than Fair and Usmash, so does it work in a competitive setting?

Dtilt footstool works consistently if you land a close sliding dtilt. You can set this up by empty hopping away and drifting back in, and then landing turn around dtilt. A close sliding Dtilt works at earlier percents than strong nair.

I'm not sure about high percents but probably not worth the risk when you can just upsmash.
It might work at midpercents as long as you can follow their drift after the footstool and weak nair or Bair lock or something. I tend to just go for pp utilt into falling upair strings since nothing really seems very guaranteed at mid percents off of dtilt.

 

[Megamang]

Im working on some dtilt followup optimizations. JC usmash is usually optimal if you can hit it. If they airdodge, you can dtilt their landing and repeat, but you want to end with a fsmash when possible. Doing this at the ledge is powerful.

If you're coming from the corner, SS backstab is a strong, but painfully precise, option following the dtilt.

Sometimes i just charge a shurikan after the dtilt, its safe... if youre like, under a bf platform, you can hold centre stage instead of going out i guess.


What about the universal safe escape, jump away? This is where im still defining my game. Im working with finding a good way to nail hydro pump. This will put them in an offstage, jumpless position, and is pretty damn safe itself.

This is just a post of random thoughts ive had trying to optimize dtilt followups.

To get the close dtilt ive been enjoying crossup nair or empty hops.

Let me know if any optimizations are apparent, my greninja is still young.

 

[BigHairyFart]

If they jump away from D-Tilt you can F-Air them.

 

[Megamang]

Cant they airdodge that fairly reliably?

 

[BigHairyFart]

Cant they airdodge that fairly reliably?

Can't we read airdodges fairly reliably?

 

[Setekh]

What stages are best for Greninja? My thoughts were Town & City and Smashville since Greninja benefits from smller blast zones and likes killing off the top. Also, the platforms assist in recovering and extending combos which Greninja sometimes has difficulty doing imo.

Thoughts?...

 

[free33]

Dtilt footstool works consistently if you land a close sliding dtilt. You can set this up by empty hopping away and drifting back in, and then landing turn around dtilt. A close sliding Dtilt works at earlier percents than strong nair.

I'm not sure about high percents but probably not worth the risk when you can just upsmash.
It might work at midpercents as long as you can follow their drift after the footstool and weak nair or Bair lock or something. I tend to just go for pp utilt into falling upair strings since nothing really seems very guaranteed at mid percents off of dtilt.

RAR bair or buffer turnaround bair is guaranteed, i'm just not good at it.

 

[BigHairyFart]

What stages are best for Greninja? My thoughts were Town & City and Smashville since Greninja benefits from smller blast zones and likes killing off the top. Also, the platforms assist in recovering and extending combos which Greninja sometimes has difficulty doing imo.

Thoughts?...

Town & City and Final Destination are our best stages, with Lylat Cruise and Battlefield being our worst two. This is a generalization of course, but my point remains. If choosing between T&C & FD consider which stage is worse for your enemy. Pretty much every other stage I didn't mention doesn't do much for or against us. Whenever I get taken to Lylat/BF I usually switch off to Mewtwo.

 

[free33]

Hey guys I want to ask about some situational battlefield strats. So when the opponent is on the platform, Greninja is regarded as not having too many options to pressure platforms as most characters. I wanted to ask about fastfall Uair as a setup. When you ffuair an opponent on a platform, I believe they are put into a trip. This is untechable, and greninjas I see usually follow up with a bair or Uair. However I had a few other ideas. First, jump up and read their getup with a shadow sneak. Nobody is ever prepared to buffer a getup in this situation, and we could easily jump and shadow sneak. The hitbox can easily hit rolls on a platform, especially if the opponent is not centered. The second is upsmash. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when an opponent is lying on a platform, not standing, the tipper hit connects. I have hit the tipper through the platform multiple times, but never really thought about it. But this seems like a viable setup. Any opinions? Or am I just damn wrong about something?

 

[Megamang]

Can't we read airdodges fairly reliably?

In a bo3 2 stock set, its hard to be sure of the opponents habits quickly.
Yes, greninja can punish airdodges well, which is what you were going for i think. But im talking about a situation where they jump + AD after dtilt. I guess fair is very low risk here, quickly FFing to the ground puts you in an advantage situation.

I was looking for something that says 'if you jump away this option hurts really bad'. I first started looking for it when reading DunnoBro's very extensive optimizations on the Mario boards. Uthrow is optimal for Mario at certain percent ranges; if they jump away FH DJ Fludd puts them in a horrific position. I want something like this for greninja.

So, ive been working on dashing under their jump, HPing into the ground and shooting a small jet of water at them. If it hits them as they jump, they fly into the stratosphere and are in a very bad situation. I guess this answers my question.... but im looking for something that covers lots of options. I know you can look at any option, and greninja being faster in the air means he can catch up and punish, but im looking for multiple option coverage rather than going for hard reads, since id rather be consistent in the situation i get advantage. Something really safe that hard punishes one option (HP down) is nice here, since you collect info on your opponents habits while being unpunishable.

So im looking for anything im missing, like a different HP angle or something clever with holding a SS charge, FH WS charge (good on slower chars offstage), etc.

Top tiers keep accelerating partly because hyper competitive players all put their heads together. Ryu players, for example, get PMs about certain parts of their game where a certain option is strictly superior. I know the frog is option rich enough to do this too, so if anyone wants to help me with it, point me to a metagame thread i might have missed, or shoot me a PM, id love it. Gren has actually been getting good results so its a good time to use that momentum.

free33 like this kinda stuff!

I like SH fair, it hits at foot level so you can FF down and be safe, it can shield poke, and it is safer and as damaging as SS.

Riskier and more rewarding, you can jump to the side of the plat and dair past, hitting a roll or shield but falling past if they dont get hit. Platform drop aerial will hit, but at dair SS or dair fair percents, risk/reward is slightly in your favor.

---

Watching Ally and Zenyou, i was noticing they both like standing grab ->jab if the opponent spotdodge. It also works vs rolls at the ledge, and if you get neither reaction you obviously dont jab. Well, i checked my trusty kuroganehammer, and noticed a happy surprise. Greninja's standing grab has 5 less recovery frames.

The initial grabbox is a little slower, but once it comes out functionally its better than Mario's jab tactic. If they spotdodge too close, a dtilt probably works well since itd hit when marios jab hits.

 

[Megamang]

Little more research ive done:

Ftilt can be untechable! This is quite nice, i find it to be a solid poke against non disjoint characters. This kinda ends up with the same issue as before, di up and jumping is the best option for them.

My best thought for this, if you know its gonna happen, is SH HP towards then diagonal down. So you close the gap quickly, then hopefully get a little jet in while they jump.

Jumping away is almost always the best and safeist escape. It is doing huge things for the Mario metagame that he can punish it at all, even if its just positional. If these dont seem too strong, just know jumping away is an option that really really works except vs limit charging, water blasting top tiers, so taking advantage from our frankly disgusting dashgrab game will pay dividends.

Edit: delayed double jump charge water shurikan is decent for uthrow followups if they insist on being safe.

 

[SJMistery]

People, I am having problems with Falco. Any tips regarding strengths, weaknesses, strategies, etc. to beat him?

 

[young grasshopper]

People, I am having problems with Falco. Any tips regarding strengths, weaknesses, strategies, etc. to beat him?

I haven't played in a while, but both Greninja and Falco are former mains of mine, so I do know a little bit about this matchup. Falco is rather horrible at approaching, and Greninja's keep away game can be great if you have the patience. Falco can reflect your shurikens, but he doesn't get as much reward from reflecting small shurikens as you do from throwing them, so he usually has to shield, jump, or take the hit (but fully charged shurikens at high percent can be risky). If Falco gets in on you and starts a combo, you're going to regret it, so play it safe and only go in when YOU have the advantage. As for getting the kill, his recovery can be rather exploitable if you force him to recover low. Hydro pump is really good for gimps. Since Falco is a fastfaller, he should be pretty easy to get kill confirms on, although the jab jab smash mixup probably won't be quite as effective. Hope this helps.

 

[Heracr055]

Does Greninja gain range from performing a roll-cancelled grab? I know certain characters such as Mac benefit from it, but with Greninja I can't tell if the difference is negligible.

 

[SJMistery]

You won't gain much, and it is never worth the bigger delay of the standing grab.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

So, I've been looking for a reliable co-main/secondary. Thus far I've turned to or. I'll admit, I'm leaning more towards or , as my seems rather inconsistent. That being said, a friend told me I shouldn't just cut the character off my list, as inconsistencies can be fixed over enough time and practice. Regardless, I'd like to get some experienced players of each character to give me their thoughts on who would be the best pick MU wise, as someone who plays /. How well does the ninja frog cover their bad MU's? I have also heard the playstyle is more hit and run, rather than rushdown, like I've been playing him as. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SJMistery]

Well, I think they cover each other pretty well, but there are some dudes like C. Falcon that theoretically beat both. Kinda the main reason I went with Corrin alonside Lucina as my secondaries.

 

[free33]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8YlKDZ8lLJRRojTHqvwrhuGLlc-xiy1s This is my playlist of the five games I uploaded from playing with MegamanLeo, the best megaman in SoCal. After playing him and a few other decent megaman players, I've realized how terrible I am at the matchup. Could I get some advice as to what I'm doing wrong? This is definitely not my best showing, but this is where my weaknesses are most apparent I believe.

 

[Sterling729]

Hey guys, I came into the Smash 4 scene a month ago, and chose Greninja as my main. I'm wondering, when initiating a combo, is it better to either bait the opponent with water shurikens, or roll around the oppoenent before dash attack, or down tilt? That's at least what I find. When I run straight towards my opponent, I find its way too easily punishable.

 

[Pixel_]

Hey guys, I came into the Smash 4 scene a month ago, and chose Greninja as my main. I'm wondering, when initiating a combo, is it better to either bait the opponent with water shurikens, or roll around the oppoenent before dash attack, or down tilt? That's at least what I find. When I run straight towards my opponent, I find its way too easily punishable.

Instead of focusing on starting a combo, you should focus on playing the neutral. The greninja discord has a good screenshot of how greninja plays in the neutral:

 

[Fephoenix]

I looked around this part of the forums for about 5 minutes, and I already see people wanting shrunken lag to be buffed. I want to ask, how are people getting around this? It seems to me as if it already has a pretty short frame lag, and is a pretty spammable move. To me, it's just kind of annoying since another player always keeps spamming shurikens as Greninja and I can't get around it to punish fast enough.

 

[SJMistery]

Because the hitbox becomes flatter with the charge level, and literally every single short hop can beat the fully charged variant that seems designed specifically to be used for the 2 frame punish and nothing else.


If the shurikens are too fast and safe agaist you, that means you have a pretty bad connection... I know that feel bro, I simply don't stand a chance against spammers either. My game slows down to a crawl against things like Spindash or Charge Shot spamming.

 

[Fephoenix]

Because the hitbox becomes flatter with the charge level, and literally every single short hop can beat the fully charged variant that seems designed specifically to be used for the 2 frame punish and nothing else.


If the shurikens are too fast and safe agaist you, that means you have a pretty bad connection... I know that feel bro, I simply don't stand a chance against spammers either. My game slows down to a crawl against things like Spindash or Charge Shot spamming.

It's probably more I press the shield button too early and air dodge landing lag hits me tbh XD But thanks. I'll try that, because I have short hopped over them before, but the next shuriken always got me.

 

[SJMistery]

Don't be afraid to shield and rush past the shurikens. Even the fully charged variant, just like every single other attack in Greninja's movepool, does negligible shield damage and has just enough endlag to give you time to aproach, and they are easy to punish on shield with a quick tilt or smash if mispaced.