tiers

[aeghrur]

No wonder I suck with Sonic, lol.

 

[Kinzer]

^^

We all suck with Sonic, yet we still kick a**

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Oh yes Boxob does. Just can't admit it.



KASR. Fail. Not "1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000". "Over 9000."

that joke is overuse dude. And I came up with that in 5 mins.

 

[Tenki]

Whoa! I wasn't expecting all that. lol, thanks TenkTenk. I def should do some reading up on his specials.. though I do think the best way to figure out all the little suicide traps is to go head and kill myself a couple hundred more times XD.

DaKid..!! I did do some research!!.... A.. bits... and watched vids and stuff.... and... other stuff ;_;.

mwahaha.

Just don't overuse the cancels.
Well actually, if you overuse them, it opens up a different set of reactions for you to punish. But I'll leave that for another thread... >:l

Anyway, yeah. I'm expecting cooler things from your next videos.

Scan, learn, use.

Spoiler

10mechasonics

 

[Chis]

Yeah, it's used like over 9,000 times.

 

[Anther]

Kidsies =x

 

[memphis_chains]

i'm confused at the point of this thread at this point.

 

[Chis]

i'm confused at the point of this thread at this point.

Who are you?

 

[memphis_chains]

pissed off at everyone here for being ********

 

[Kinzer]

Haha, so what did you do to get banned Memphis?

 

[Chis]

Oh I see now...

10noonegotthejoke

 

[memphis_chains]

too much steak

 

[Napilopez]

Anther, about your Sonic just some general notes

First of all, I love your usage of Nair, you put it to use more effectively than probably any other Sonic I've seen. Your good playerness skizzles show.

One basic thing you need to work on IMO, is your usage of homing attack. You usually got punished for whiffing it. Learn the area and angles it works best on. For the best info on this check out this vid, starting from about 6 mins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c . Note that HA tracks the back of opponents, not the front or center. If you know to use it right, then you should only be whiffing it no more than 1 or 2 out of every 5 or so =P

Also, don't go for running grabs, I can't think of a situation where this would be better than a shield cancelled run grab, except for the cg on Ness. By shield cancelling a run, you actually have the about the same grabbing distance as a running grab, because Sonic slides as he shields, helping you move forward. its great for getting through certain defenses, because you protect with your shield, then go in for the grab.

Can't think of anything else that hasnt been mentioned.

Oh wait, you might wanna think about working on dash dance pivots. It allows Sonic to stay in motion constantly, and it would definately help you in usig Sonic as a marth counter. Sonic already messes up his Zoning and spacing tons, this would just make it so much harder. basically, just learn the mechanics of his foxtrot, its ultra aversatile.


Lol I think Sonic is a good snake counter as well, although you don't need that seeing as you main Pika XD.

 

[memphis_chains]

anther, you and i should have a conversation sometime.

i admit everything you need is one these boards, but its kinda scattered.

 

[Tenki]

Oh I see now...

10noonegotthejoke

I got it. It was kinda lame.

lol@ your Brawl FC
you have 9001 (over 9000) and 1337 in it.

There's no way that can be right.

Anther, about your Sonic just some general notes

First of all, I love your usage of Nair, you put it to use more effectively than probably any other Sonic I've seen. Your good playerness skizzles show.

One basic thing you need to work on IMO, is your usage of homing attack. You usually got punished for whiffing it. Learn the area and angles it works best on. For the best info on this check out this vid, starting from about 6 mins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c . Note that HA tracks the back of opponents, not the front or center. If you know to use it right, then you should only be whiffing it no more than 1 or 2 out of every 5 or so =P

Also, don't go for running grabs, I can't think of a situation where this would be better than a shield cancelled run grab, except for the cg on Ness. By shield cancelling a run, you actually have the about the same grabbing distance as a running grab, because Sonic slides as he shields, helping you move forward. its great for getting through certain defenses, because you protect with your shield, then go in for the grab.

Can't think of anything else that hasnt been mentioned.

Oh wait, you might wanna think about working on dash dance pivots. It allows Sonic to stay in motion constantly, and it would definately help you in usig Sonic as a marth counter. Sonic already messes up his Zoning and spacing tons, this would just make it so much harder. basically, just learn the mechanics of his foxtrot, its ultra aversatile.


Lol I think Sonic is a good snake counter as well, although you don't need that seeing as you main Pika XD.

Napi- his HA's were all in range, but the main problem was it was usually too low.

Ay, that note on running grab is true. It's fortunate that alot of his opponents go for shields more than anything, but most of my opponents go to spotdodge, and dashgrab has horrible miss-lag.

He doesn't really need the mid-range motion of dd pivots, since he handles close range behaviors pretty well.

I like how he uses side-B just right so he lands it on the stage at the apex of the jump. But then, I kinda don't like that it's a side-B, because it forces you to go into a roll lol.


Speaking of N-air, I was wondering if anyone's ever stagespiked someone on the ledge with it. You know, rising N-air starts faster than a rising B-air from a spring.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm not sure, doesn't Nair send opponents in the direction you were facing before you initiated the Nair and the way you face after the lag animations are done?

If that's true, a Nair stage spike should theoritically be possible.

 

[Tenki]

I'm not sure if its direction/strength is good enough for a stage spike though.

because a rising N-air that passes through your opponent and rises above the ledge while setting up for a near-lagless ledge-punishment (probably ledge attack, if they're trying to edgehog you over 100%) sounds more hardcore than a B-air that floats by the edge, killing you if they're still in invincibility frames and edgehog with ledge attack.

 

[Kinzer]

So it kind of works like a magnet/repellant? Let me explain what I mean by magnet/repellant:

Although Nair doesn't have a vacuum effect nor does it attarct anybody to get into it, but you're saying that opponents go flying out the same way they came in? This means that if an opponent got hit by Sonic from...oh let's say, their front. They're gonig to fly back...and vice versa, saying if they get hit from behind, they get shoved forward?

Wait, Nair can possible score star K.O.s as well?

I'm so confused.

 

[Tenki]

So it kind of works like a magnet/repellant? Let me explain what I mean by magnet/repellant:

Although Nair doesn't have a vacuum effect nor does it attarct anybody to get into it, but you're saying that opponents go flying out the same way they came in? This means that if an opponent got hit by Sonic from...oh let's say, their front. They're gonig to fly back...and vice versa, saying if they get hit from behind, they get shoved forward?

Wait, Nair can possible score star K.O.s as well?

I'm so confused.

err, only horizontally speaking, and relative to Sonic.

So if you're on the left side of Sonic, you fly up and left. If you're on the right side of Sonic during the N-air, you fly up and right.

And I guess it could star KO if they DI'd upwards and started off at like, spring max height at a high enough %.

 

[Mmac]

Guys, stop working together! Fight about Yoshi some more!

 

[Kinzer]

Hehe, only if you agree to some Wi-Fi lulzy matches with me will I fight about Yoshi.

The only good Yoshi I've ever fought was Naucitos, and it lagged very bad.

Psst, I probably could've won had it not lagged so much, and maybe now that my game is so much better now than it was when that match was arranged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZ2GaPVW4c

inspirational music is inspiring, I feel like I can take on any opponent head on (except Wario and G&W, god I hate those matchups with Sonic.)

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol why is mmac here, we didnt even namedrop him

 

[Chis]

I got it. It was kinda lame.

lol@ your Brawl FC
you have 9001 (over 9000) and 1337 in it.

There's no way that can be right.

Actually you're wrong Tenki. I was talking about the post before that. I edited and posted again about how no one would get the joke. My friend code is old news.

 

[Tenki]

Actually you're wrong Tenki. I was talking about the post before that. I edited and posted again about how no one would get the joke. My friend code is old news.

the joke wasn't "who are you?" when memphis_chains appeared?


and the "there's no way that can be right" was part of the over9000 transcript. >_>

because that's what I was talking about..

 

[Chis]

Yes. And I know the transcript. I feel we've killed this joke some what.

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, the 'who are you?' was kinda lame.

 

[Chis]

And that's why I said no one would get it.

Tier lists are about how well players can cope in the meta game with a character. Even winning low tier tourneys will higher his rank. So this doesn't help. If you want him low start losing.

Saying he's bad but owning with him seems counter productive.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it doesnt matter if you win if you emphasize the fact that you are just a better player

like X, hes the best player in his area but he loses to a better character.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I knew this was coming.
Knew it.
I hate you all.

As for the whole Yoshi being easy business, it's either 45:55 or 40:60 in Yoshi's favour, I've found.

In fact, Sonic's match-ups against the higher low tiers aren't great.

Lucas 50:50
Ness 55:45
Mario 45:55/40:60
Pokémon Trainer 55:45
Samus 50:50
Yoshi 45:55/40:60
Sonic O NOES.
Jigglypuff 40:60 probably, maybe 45:55
Ganondorf 65:35
Link 60:40
Captain Falcon 60:40

Low tier tournaments obviously bring some of the best players into their own, because it gives them chance to shine, instead of getting ****ed over by ***gots using Metaknight and tornadoing 300 times every match.
Low tiers generally don't have anything destructive in their tool box. Nothing they can really pick the opponent apart with, they're more about skill.

Are we really talking about tiers again? o_0

like X, hes the best player in his area but he loses to a better character.

This happens all the time and I genuinely agree with you, however.

 

[Levitas]

Super ultra late reply, but I forgot about this thread, and don't particularly like being called out on some rather valid points.

Sonic is not a rushdown character. Just because he's fast? No.

Anther's Sonic is terrible. If Anther was what SP was basing Sonic's qualities on, then SP is severely mistaken.

Punisher = rushdown in this case. Sonic camps out of range of the opponent, waits for a mistake, and races in. Unless you're saying that he uses his fast tilts/other moves to punish missed attacks by the opponent, in which case you're actually talking about lucas and not sonic. Now the fact that when I said rushdown, you assumed I was talking about NOT playing smart isn't my problem, that's all you.

Anther may not take advantage of everything has to offer, but saying he's bad is funny. I see you've already had this discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

What the hell's with you people and character match ups that you have to argue your point any time your main's name is mentioned.

Ness icon =/= maining ness. I don't main ness. For that matter, I made a valid point using ness as an illustration. If you have a problem with me coming to "your" part of the boards and saying stuff, then something's wrong here.

@that guy trying to defend ness,
lol. all sonic players are amazing, and im not even joking about that, this is because the people who play sonic badly, quit playing sonic. so they dont count anymore...

The argument against ness was a differently stated "all ness players are bad". Good call. And I'm the one who's getting called out for disputing that argument.

2) His Sonic is not good. Show documented evidence of him placing well by using Sonic throughout the whole tournament.

Of course. Because it makes sense to use your secondary who is much worse than your main through an entire tournament.


Feel free to point out other valid arguments I've made and decide they're wrong because you feel like it again.

 

[Chis]

No the problem is going off topic and trying to make this into a thread which this is not Levitas.

 

[Levitas]

This thread is made on bad assumptions and has some really flawed statements in the first post.

Now I got called out from like 5 people for pointing out flaws in said first post. I want to fix bad logic. All of these points (aside from the anther one, which got really offtopic when I wasn't here) pertain directly to sonic vs low tiers.

So if I'm talking about sonic vs low tiers, and using logic while doing so, does that mean I'm off topic?

 

[memphis_chains]

what where the wrong assumptions in the first post?

 

[Levitas]

The one that gave me the biggest problem was dismissing Ness on the basis that you won't be fighting a top level one.

Although dismissing lucas without even giving a reason and dismissing the SBR's sonic knowledge entirely was also present.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Although dismissing lucas without even giving a reason

If you mean the match-up, it's because none of them have a significant advantage over the other. It's dead neutral.

and dismissing the SBR's sonic knowledge entirely was also present.

Where?
....
WHERE?!
Seriously, when I see a SBR'er talking about Sonic, it's completely and totally wrong.
For example, the latest thing I've seen is in the Tier List thread. Overswarm was talking about the Pika Sonic match-up, saying that Pika ftilting leaves Sonic useless.
Completely neglecting the fact that Sonic's ftilt outranges it >_>

Now I love Overswarm and all..

But the SBR, it's quite apparent, know nothing on Sonic. It's often bias and silly presumptions that get in the way of logic. "oh hai, Sonic has no range lololol, so the opponents attacks all outrange Sonic lets not test or anything lololololol"
With that example up there, and there's 2324235452 more, it's pretty unrefutable.

I dread to see their write up in the "Weekly Character Discussion."
0_o

 

[memphis_chains]

sbr is being dumb

i have talked to more than a few, they barely have any idea. i talk to ankoku also, levi, you can ask him about it.

EDIT - i'm not questioning ankoku's intelligence by any means, but i do talk to him a lot about certain topics

everyone is being so narrow minded

 

[ROOOOY!]

I can accept the stupid information and choose to ignore it.
But the people who actually listen to them for Sonic information are just going to be massively misinformed, and that's the thing that bugs me.
I like how they ignore Sonic mains too.
It's like
"I've used Sonic once and I know your character better than you do lol simply because of my status"

It's pretty immature really.

 

[memphis_chains]

exactly.

it really pathetic

 

[Levitas]

memphis chains, I've known ankoku in person since we started college. I'm not entirely sure what you are implying, he's generally not close minded at all about these things.

As a member of the melee ness boards, I'm no stranger to character main stigma. Nobody in melee listened to anything you said following the word Ness, but that was mostly due to exaggerations about how good he was. I'm assuming something similar happened here. Brawl came out, all the sonic people played sonic, used the wrong moves, said that sonic sucked and had low priority. A few people stuck around, and insisted that his priority isn't that bad, and that sonic is feasible competitively (I consider that to be an exaggeration, honestly, as bad as that sounds), and the people who were disappointed by sonic and dropped him immediately said "no way".

Exaggerations that the sonic boards have been doing more recently that would contribute to the stigma would be such things as saying "sonic ***** low tier" when he's got a lot of even matchups in low tier, or saying "lucas isn't a problem" when it's dead even.

 

[memphis_chains]

i was just saying that he understands more, nothing bad