platinum kirby
Smash Apprentice
Wall of Text, sorry. Worth a read though. BTW, I was trying to list both lists one next to another but forgot that spaces aren't counted as characters, thus the weird list at the beginning of the post.
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Tiers? (Include an explaination)
- Thread starter Nero
- Start date
D
Deleted member
Guest
All right, fine, it was my first post so now I know. *writes down notes*
It was my first post so naturally I wouldn't know how to fully analyze every use of a move there possibly is. You, sir, are obviously very experienced, and I hope to learn to analyze like that.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Well Smash has also been around for a few years now with a lot of people debating...
...I think.
...I think.
Some people utilize some aspects of a character better than others. >_> I tend to go for the characters that have a balance between speed, priority, and strength or characters that can go into zero-death combos.
I'm weak at utilizing projectiles (other than spamming in a free for all or Pichu in SSBM :D) and can't play a good link or Mario even. >_>
Anyways, you're missing Luigi on that list. <_<
I'm weak at utilizing projectiles (other than spamming in a free for all or Pichu in SSBM :D) and can't play a good link or Mario even. >_>
Anyways, you're missing Luigi on that list. <_<
platinum kirby
Smash Apprentice
Oh ****, I did, I'm so very sorry.
Luigi: Best (tied) combo finisher in the game, UpB. Great up-close pressure strings. Dash->Uair. Sliding F-smash. Good Up and Down smash. quick Neutral A that, like Mario, leads to a throw if cancelled right. good throw. Decent fireball game. Good recovery distance. versatile DownB (combo finisher, dash-throw interrupter). Somehow easier to DI with than many other characters, though this is biased. Fairly strong aerials.
Cons: Below average weight, too high short hop, floaty when in mid-air , easy to edgeguard.
BTW, Samus can perform a waterdowned (sp?) super dash, like jiggz. Works wonders when i comes to edge guarding.
Luigi: Best (tied) combo finisher in the game, UpB. Great up-close pressure strings. Dash->Uair. Sliding F-smash. Good Up and Down smash. quick Neutral A that, like Mario, leads to a throw if cancelled right. good throw. Decent fireball game. Good recovery distance. versatile DownB (combo finisher, dash-throw interrupter). Somehow easier to DI with than many other characters, though this is biased. Fairly strong aerials.
Cons: Below average weight, too high short hop, floaty when in mid-air , easy to edgeguard.
BTW, Samus can perform a waterdowned (sp?) super dash, like jiggz. Works wonders when i comes to edge guarding.
M3tr01D
Smash Lord
PK, you ever use a shsl with fox? if you get it to the point just above a gun cancel it can combo into a lot of moves, including up smash, grabs, and a fair. I think this added fact might be enough to put him above ness on the tier list. It shoots quite a bit quicker then the shdl because there's only one of it, and as soon as you see the laser shoot out you can start advancing for a move. Try it out sometime 
platinum kirby
Smash Apprentice
They're definitely not the greatest of all projectiles but they're fairly useful. Slightly better than Pika's and much better than Samus' charge shot.
Thx for the advice M3tr01d. I'll try that later today. I really don't know what to say. This was the list moogle and some others agreed upon a year ago. but yes, Fox is too beastly. The thing is, is Fire Fox harder to edge-guard than PK Comet? IMHO, no.
Thx for the advice M3tr01d. I'll try that later today. I really don't know what to say. This was the list moogle and some others agreed upon a year ago. but yes, Fox is too beastly. The thing is, is Fire Fox harder to edge-guard than PK Comet? IMHO, no.
moogle
Smash Ace
The way I see it:
Pikachu, Kirby, (Ness/Fox/Falcon), (Mario/Jiggly), (Yoshi/DK/Luigi), Samus, Link
The ones I grouped together in parentheses, I think, are almost equal, and they should always be consecutive within one tier (i.e. don't split these groups across 2 tiers). They can also be rearranged if you so desire, for example, (Fox/Ness/Falcon).
If you don't like my groupings, you can argue with me.
Now, decide where you want the tier gaps to be... they can go any place I've put a comma. You want 5 tiers?
Top
Pikachu
Kirby
High
Ness
Fox
Falcon
Middle
Mario
Jiggly
Low
Yoshi
DK
Luigi
Bottom
Samus
Link
However, I personally like my 3 tier list.
Top
Pikachu
Kirby
Middle
Ness
Fox
Falcon
Mario
Jiggly
Yoshi
DK
Luigi
Bottom
Samus
Link
Pikachu, Kirby, (Ness/Fox/Falcon), (Mario/Jiggly), (Yoshi/DK/Luigi), Samus, Link
The ones I grouped together in parentheses, I think, are almost equal, and they should always be consecutive within one tier (i.e. don't split these groups across 2 tiers). They can also be rearranged if you so desire, for example, (Fox/Ness/Falcon).
If you don't like my groupings, you can argue with me.
Now, decide where you want the tier gaps to be... they can go any place I've put a comma. You want 5 tiers?
Top
Pikachu
Kirby
High
Ness
Fox
Falcon
Middle
Mario
Jiggly
Low
Yoshi
DK
Luigi
Bottom
Samus
Link
However, I personally like my 3 tier list.
Top
Pikachu
Kirby
Middle
Ness
Fox
Falcon
Mario
Jiggly
Yoshi
DK
Luigi
Bottom
Samus
Link
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
The argument that Link is better than Samus is because of his ridiculous projectible game right? Expect his recovery is just so bad...
Sigh at Link's recovery.
Sigh at Link's recovery.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
Well guessing that allot of this game is built around 0-death combos, link dosent have to get comboed to death like other characters. Like, if you combo a pika, it has to be something-death or else his ridiculous recovery with destroy your smile. With link, you only need to get him far away from the edge. That's why the link has to work harder. But samus is technically lower but all because of the way this game is played, I dont think it would be right to put him up any higher. Poor link.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I know...*tear* If they just made his 2nd jump a bit higher, and his Up-b a bit less...I dunno the word, maybe stumpy...
He's so fun to play though.
O well. I like Samus because you can mindgame people lying on the ground with your mad grab range!
Well. If you miss you're screwed.
STILL!!!
O well. Bottom tier is too cool.
He's so fun to play though.
O well. I like Samus because you can mindgame people lying on the ground with your mad grab range!
Well. If you miss you're screwed.
STILL!!!
O well. Bottom tier is too cool.
Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
well pikas recovery wont destroy your smile that much if you get enough damage to put pika far away; as his recovery becomes more and more predictalble... basicly that's how his recovery works.
closer= hard, far = easy, low = easy, high = hard (except maybe a good egg aiming yoshi).
You can guess the diagonals from this I guess.
the further he is the less options he will have. He will have 2 options if he is far away; ledge or ground. I know this because I like to use fumi's trick with the egg cancel. It usually solves my edguarding problem.
and yes I counter a pika with a yoshi...
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
IMO you need to state what your tier list is based off of. Heres my list which is based purely off character potential portrayed by top players.
Top
Pikachu (Isai)
Fox (Isai)
Kirby (too good)
High
Mario (Red Mario - Japan)
Yoshi (Sossy - Japan -- Yoshi has UNBELIEVABLE potential, but hes just insanely hard to master)
Falcon (Isai and Johnny)
Middle
Link (Isai)
Samus (Josuke - Japan -- From what I've heard he could be top 3 in Japan)
DK (Amasawa - Japan)
Jigglypuff (Takamitsu - Japan, PK possibly but I haven't seen it)
Luigi (Takamitsu - Japan)
Ness (Isai -- Hes at the bottom because the best Ness I've seen is Isai and he says Ness is his worst character. However, I've heard that PK and a Japan player have very good Ness' but I can't comment because I haven't seen them.)
Now don't go crazy on me, remember that this list is based solely off character potential portrayed by top players. This basically means that if you took the best player of each character you would get a list looking somewhat like this(IMO). The Japanese players and Platinum Kirby(PK) are based off what I've seen from video, and what I've heard from Isai and KESHIKI(let me know if I have something off).
Top
Pikachu (Isai)
Fox (Isai)
Kirby (too good)
High
Mario (Red Mario - Japan)
Yoshi (Sossy - Japan -- Yoshi has UNBELIEVABLE potential, but hes just insanely hard to master)
Falcon (Isai and Johnny)
Middle
Link (Isai)
Samus (Josuke - Japan -- From what I've heard he could be top 3 in Japan)
DK (Amasawa - Japan)
Jigglypuff (Takamitsu - Japan, PK possibly but I haven't seen it)
Luigi (Takamitsu - Japan)
Ness (Isai -- Hes at the bottom because the best Ness I've seen is Isai and he says Ness is his worst character. However, I've heard that PK and a Japan player have very good Ness' but I can't comment because I haven't seen them.)
Now don't go crazy on me, remember that this list is based solely off character potential portrayed by top players. This basically means that if you took the best player of each character you would get a list looking somewhat like this(IMO). The Japanese players and Platinum Kirby(PK) are based off what I've seen from video, and what I've heard from Isai and KESHIKI(let me know if I have something off).
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
aw what about my falcon? xP
_kSo_
Smash Master
ok, first off, Link is always low tier no matter 1v1 or ffa. his jump and speed quite obviously obliterate him being usable whatsoever. Granted, he is a lot
of fun to use =] but he is simply terrible.
A tier - Pikachu, Fox, Capt. Falcon, Kirby, [Jigglypuff]*
B tier - [Ness]*, Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Luigi
C tier - Link, Samus
*Ness and Jigglypuff may be seen as interchangable
Pikachu is basically the perfect fighting machine: great agility, powerful attacks, high priority moves, immense juggling potential, and quite frankly can
get back from any distance because his jump is so killer. Only downer is that he dies easily because he is so light
Fox may be seen as S tier becuase of some of his more advanced qualities. His short jump is tighter than pikachu's making it easier to space. He can run
faster than pikachu, making his dance dash more effective, his juggling capabilities are also very good, and quite frankly, there is a use for every single
one of his moves. The huge disadvantage fox has is that hi UP + B is predictable and is a low priority move. However, he does have one of the most effective
edge guarding attacks in the game (down + A ; his split sends you to the side and down, making it the hardest to recover from)
Captain Falcon is my favorite character. Mainly because of his Z2D (zero% to death) capabilities is what makes him so much better than he may seem. First of
all he has many weaknesses, including a terrible up + B (great for combo finishers, terrible for getting back to the stage) and no use for falcon kick
whatsoever. His roll is terrible as well, but his speed makes up for it. CF's attacks are slower than foxes, which gives fox a bit of an edge on the
attacking part. But with a spike (meteor smash), he increases his capabilites greatly. However, CF does not have any notably good edge guarding moves.
Jigglypuff and ness both may be able to be considered high tier, however ness's slow speed and jigglypuff's slow speed both put them at a disadvantage.
Jigglypuff if my second best character so of course im going to give him the benifit of the doubt, but as you all know jigglypuff dies very very easily.
Jigglypuff has really good Z2D combos, but so does ness. ness has high priority moves, and the best spike in the game (highest priority out of all the
spikes, most powerful) without sleep, (down + B) jigglypuff does not have many other Z2D combos either. Her headbutt (up+A) is as powerful as mario or
luigi's
Mario has a spike, however it is hard to pull off. He has been the most rounded character in every game he has been in. Self-explanatory
Donkey Kong is slow and big, but he is also powerful. His backwards throw is the best in the game, and his roll is also very good for a big guy. He has 2
spikes, one of them (forward + A in the air) sends you flying downwards at an angle which is also very good. He has almost as much horizontal air time as
jigglypuff does, but he is very predictable. big punch (B) is hard to hit just like falcon punch.
Yoshi is playable, however his none-existent 3rd jump makes him a difficult character to handle. His down+A spiral kicks is the most damaging attack in the
game. And his weak up+A is also an excellent juggle. He has many powerful attacks in his arsenal however he sacrifices speed for it.
Luigi has combos and powerful finishers. his jump is very high, but it also makes his short jump higher than usual which may be used to his advantage or it
may put him at a disadvantage.
Link is very powerful, and has some great attacks. He is very low in the tier list simply because his speed is terrible, his roll is terrible, and his jump
is TERRIBLE.
Samus - lowest tier...self explanatory...msg me if you want to argue about it
of fun to use =] but he is simply terrible.
A tier - Pikachu, Fox, Capt. Falcon, Kirby, [Jigglypuff]*
B tier - [Ness]*, Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Luigi
C tier - Link, Samus
*Ness and Jigglypuff may be seen as interchangable
Pikachu is basically the perfect fighting machine: great agility, powerful attacks, high priority moves, immense juggling potential, and quite frankly can
get back from any distance because his jump is so killer. Only downer is that he dies easily because he is so light
Fox may be seen as S tier becuase of some of his more advanced qualities. His short jump is tighter than pikachu's making it easier to space. He can run
faster than pikachu, making his dance dash more effective, his juggling capabilities are also very good, and quite frankly, there is a use for every single
one of his moves. The huge disadvantage fox has is that hi UP + B is predictable and is a low priority move. However, he does have one of the most effective
edge guarding attacks in the game (down + A ; his split sends you to the side and down, making it the hardest to recover from)
Captain Falcon is my favorite character. Mainly because of his Z2D (zero% to death) capabilities is what makes him so much better than he may seem. First of
all he has many weaknesses, including a terrible up + B (great for combo finishers, terrible for getting back to the stage) and no use for falcon kick
whatsoever. His roll is terrible as well, but his speed makes up for it. CF's attacks are slower than foxes, which gives fox a bit of an edge on the
attacking part. But with a spike (meteor smash), he increases his capabilites greatly. However, CF does not have any notably good edge guarding moves.
Jigglypuff and ness both may be able to be considered high tier, however ness's slow speed and jigglypuff's slow speed both put them at a disadvantage.
Jigglypuff if my second best character so of course im going to give him the benifit of the doubt, but as you all know jigglypuff dies very very easily.
Jigglypuff has really good Z2D combos, but so does ness. ness has high priority moves, and the best spike in the game (highest priority out of all the
spikes, most powerful) without sleep, (down + B) jigglypuff does not have many other Z2D combos either. Her headbutt (up+A) is as powerful as mario or
luigi's
Mario has a spike, however it is hard to pull off. He has been the most rounded character in every game he has been in. Self-explanatory
Donkey Kong is slow and big, but he is also powerful. His backwards throw is the best in the game, and his roll is also very good for a big guy. He has 2
spikes, one of them (forward + A in the air) sends you flying downwards at an angle which is also very good. He has almost as much horizontal air time as
jigglypuff does, but he is very predictable. big punch (B) is hard to hit just like falcon punch.
Yoshi is playable, however his none-existent 3rd jump makes him a difficult character to handle. His down+A spiral kicks is the most damaging attack in the
game. And his weak up+A is also an excellent juggle. He has many powerful attacks in his arsenal however he sacrifices speed for it.
Luigi has combos and powerful finishers. his jump is very high, but it also makes his short jump higher than usual which may be used to his advantage or it
may put him at a disadvantage.
Link is very powerful, and has some great attacks. He is very low in the tier list simply because his speed is terrible, his roll is terrible, and his jump
is TERRIBLE.
Samus - lowest tier...self explanatory...msg me if you want to argue about it
rokimomi
Smash Lord
^ Im thinkin yoshi is being put lower because of his good points???!?!?
He has very good 02D combos as well and parry. And double jump.
He has very good 02D combos as well and parry. And double jump.
_kSo_
Smash Master
nah hes lower kuz of his speed. Speed is very important in this game, however the parry is an excellent ability. by that point in the post i got bored and stopped thinking properly lol. good point though lol
platinum kirby
Smash Apprentice
Some good reasons....lack of high level competition, from what I can infer. And doesn't have terrible speed....in fact, he can move much faster than most characters (excluding running speed of course). Ness doesn't have 02D combos except for DJC shield breaking Jigglypuff >_>... I posted the accepted (to certain point) tier list, and I listed reasons in a post located some posts before these....
_kSo_
Smash Master
haha yes i did
the parry that yoshi has is indeed good, but it lasts a very short amount of time, and not as effective as one would think. however, if this is used right, you are right, yoshi could very well have been placed in the upper B tier
SmashThugZ
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Messages
- 422
Link isn't terrible
It's just more difficult to stay alive with him, that's all
But yah, overall, Link is the least, I'd say, in competitive play, since basically one throw can kill him
It's just more difficult to stay alive with him, that's all
But yah, overall, Link is the least, I'd say, in competitive play, since basically one throw can kill him
ant-d
Smash Lord
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Nobody has any opinions on my new groundbreaking tier list? Come on, I need some attention...
IMO you need to state what your tier list is based off of. Heres my list which is based purely off character potential portrayed by top players.
Top
Pikachu (Isai)
Fox (Isai)
Kirby (too good)
High
Mario (Red Mario - Japan)
Yoshi (Sossy - Japan -- Yoshi has UNBELIEVABLE potential, but hes just insanely hard to master)
Falcon (Isai and Johnny)
Middle
Link (Isai)
Samus (Josuke - Japan -- From what I've heard he could be top 3 in Japan)
DK (Amasawa - Japan)
Jigglypuff (Takamitsu - Japan, PK possibly but I haven't seen it)
Luigi (Takamitsu - Japan)
Ness (Isai -- Hes at the bottom because the best Ness I've seen is Isai and he says Ness is his worst character. However, I've heard that PK and a Japan player have very good Ness' but I can't comment because I haven't seen them.)
Now don't go crazy on me, remember that this list is based solely off character potential portrayed by top players. This basically means that if you took the best player of each character you would get a list looking somewhat like this(IMO). The Japanese players and Platinum Kirby(PK) are based off what I've seen from video, and what I've heard from Isai and KESHIKI(let me know if I have something off).
IMO you need to state what your tier list is based off of. Heres my list which is based purely off character potential portrayed by top players.
Top
Pikachu (Isai)
Fox (Isai)
Kirby (too good)
High
Mario (Red Mario - Japan)
Yoshi (Sossy - Japan -- Yoshi has UNBELIEVABLE potential, but hes just insanely hard to master)
Falcon (Isai and Johnny)
Middle
Link (Isai)
Samus (Josuke - Japan -- From what I've heard he could be top 3 in Japan)
DK (Amasawa - Japan)
Jigglypuff (Takamitsu - Japan, PK possibly but I haven't seen it)
Luigi (Takamitsu - Japan)
Ness (Isai -- Hes at the bottom because the best Ness I've seen is Isai and he says Ness is his worst character. However, I've heard that PK and a Japan player have very good Ness' but I can't comment because I haven't seen them.)
Now don't go crazy on me, remember that this list is based solely off character potential portrayed by top players. This basically means that if you took the best player of each character you would get a list looking somewhat like this(IMO). The Japanese players and Platinum Kirby(PK) are based off what I've seen from video, and what I've heard from Isai and KESHIKI(let me know if I have something off).
Sensei
Smash Lord
your list attributes to your madness. somebody should update the first post with the current tier list btw.
ant-d
Smash Lord
Yes it does.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
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- 4,781
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Notice how your list is based entirely on Isai and a bunch of Japanese players instead of actual tactics used. If we based SSBM on that, Marth would be top by a long shot.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Wait, so you're saying some of the best players for each characters don't use legit tactics in gameplay?
Your post doesn't make much sense to me.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
Just wonderin, why dont you ever do these things in training mode?
ant-d
Smash Lord
The numbers get in the way.
Training mode is needed by human players so they can reset character positions if they make a mistake and to see if their combo works by viewing the hit counter.
I need none of those.
It is impossible to control 2P in training mode. I can check, by controlling 2P, to see if a combo will truly work in battle. The combo meter cannot do this.
Also, it could be misleading if I use training mode, as people may assume I did the combo in real-time.
Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
XD hah! so your not human =O
ant-d
Smash Lord
Ness can kill some characters with two hits on Dreamland...
He can also kill many characters with F-air/N-air DJC across the stage into a D-air or Throw.
He can also kill many characters with F-air/N-air DJC across the stage into a D-air or Throw.
platinum kirby
Smash Apprentice
tier list by PK and other experts:
Top
Pika
Kirby
Ness*
High
Fox
c. Falcon
Middle
Jigglypuff
Mario
Yoshi
Low
DK
Luigi
Bottom
Samus
Link
*Sometimes regarded as high because of his easy to intercept comeback.
I'll gladly debate the reasons behind this solid tier list.
Isai's tier list:
Slightly better than everyone
Pika
Great
The Rest
O.O
Top
Pika
Kirby
Ness*
High
Fox
c. Falcon
Middle
Jigglypuff
Mario
Yoshi
Low
DK
Luigi
Bottom
Samus
Link
*Sometimes regarded as high because of his easy to intercept comeback.
I'll gladly debate the reasons behind this solid tier list.
Isai's tier list:
Slightly better than everyone
Pika
Great
The Rest
O.O
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
This is kinda late, but whatever.
I'm saying that the SSB scene is much larger than the amazingly small group you defined. You put Ness at the bottom solely due to Isai, without considering other Ness players who might play Ness better than him.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Doesn't it seem a little strange that none of the top players in the United States or Japan(the 2 biggest smash64 regions in the world) main Ness? You'd think if Ness were top tier like most people think, there would someone out there with a dominant Ness, but there isn't. If you put the best Ness player in the world(whomever it is) up against any of those players in my list I seriously doubt they'd come up with many wins. I firmly believe Ness' position as dead last in my tier list is justified.
just like that one basketball player who practiced on his backyard hoop and was better than Michael Jordan at his prime.
Mekanos
Smash Cadet
Fox surely is at #1 in all circumstances. But it doesn't differ much from some char's, like Pika. This is if you play almost at frame perfect..
I don't think Kirby should be rated at top. Pika is better than Kirby; because of his mobility he can easily avoid Kirby. Plus, kirby's moves are predictible, learn your opponent playing style and make counters. Jiggly isn't very good also, it's only good if you get hit by his drill (which will eventually get into a combo). But that can easily be avoided.
Link could be one of the best also, if your timing would be near perfect. But recovery is the problem.
So, my list:
1. Fox
2. Pikachu
2. C. Falcon
3. Kirby
3. Luigi
3. Mario
3. Samus
3. Link
4. Ness
4. Yoshi
4. DK
4. Jigglypuff
Altho, DK can be tricky with his throws. So like I said, if you play near frame prefect, it can be avoided.
I don't think Kirby should be rated at top. Pika is better than Kirby; because of his mobility he can easily avoid Kirby. Plus, kirby's moves are predictible, learn your opponent playing style and make counters. Jiggly isn't very good also, it's only good if you get hit by his drill (which will eventually get into a combo). But that can easily be avoided.
Link could be one of the best also, if your timing would be near perfect. But recovery is the problem.
So, my list:
1. Fox
2. Pikachu
2. C. Falcon
3. Kirby
3. Luigi
3. Mario
3. Samus
3. Link
4. Ness
4. Yoshi
4. DK
4. Jigglypuff
Altho, DK can be tricky with his throws. So like I said, if you play near frame prefect, it can be avoided.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
^ Jiggs owns most of the people in 3rd cuz of her combos. They're too easy and too effective to make her in ur fourth or last section.
Mekanos
Smash Cadet
Yea I know Jiggly can be very good. I know moogle plays Jiggly and is very deadly with it. From zero to death combo's etc. But I think if you would play every char at almost perfect timing, Jiggly would fall back because of his fragileness and mobility.
It's actually hard to put an char at the bottom, it makes the char look bad and there are always some good points that other chars don't have. So I would say, the char's at No.4 are in no particular order.
It's actually hard to put an char at the bottom, it makes the char look bad and there are always some good points that other chars don't have. So I would say, the char's at No.4 are in no particular order.