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Tiers? (Include an explaination)

platinum kirby

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
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128
Location
Mexico City
Fabrian, one of the most important reasons why Samus is regarded as bottom (sometimes low) tier is because of her lack of combo ability. She has hands down the worst combo ability and roll, too. And DK is low, IMHO perhaps even middle.

And Luigi over Jiggz? WTF. Yeah, sure. Better match-ups and comeback will always have Mario above Yoshi.

IDK, IMO Link would be AT LEAST middle tier if he had a decent comeback...too powerful.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
392
Location
Montreal D.D.O
Fabrian, one of the most important reasons why Samus is regarded as bottom (sometimes low) tier is because of her lack of combo ability. She has hands down the worst combo ability and roll, too. And DK is low, IMHO perhaps even middle.

And Luigi over Jiggz? WTF. Yeah, sure. Better match-ups and comeback will always have Mario above Yoshi.

IDK, IMO Link would be AT LEAST middle tier if he had a decent comeback...too powerful.
uh plz dont put words in my mouth that I never said... I just said she could combo never said she was great and should be placed high. I know all of the things you stated don't think I'm new at this... I've started to play this competitively almost as long as you.

Luigi over jiggs for a good reason luigi is hard to get with jiggs when he's jumping around. and he is light which is bad for being comboed. also he can kill her in 3 moves literally I tested recently. I don't like luigi as much yeah I'd never play against a good luigi with jigglypuff... I have other reasons why but I'm bored and i have one more statement and i want to go grab a yogurt... yes a yougurt...:psycho:

Yoshi over mario, mario over yoshi? hmm tough tough... to me they are aqual but mario has few killing moves and his fire spam isn't something yoshis should worry about. The only thing here though is that through all my years of playing yoshi, mario is the only one that i've been able to combo something else in the air apart from the drill without faint hitting.
Also yoshis are harder to take down. usually they start becoming easy to take down at 120+ some go till 250 if they know what moves you can take damage.

Mario on the other hand can combo yoshi well even though he should watch out for the egg trap which consists of canceling the egg throw it works but it only increases egg throwing speed by like 2/3 of the normal time and it's dangerous... really dangerous so only pros used it... well wtv mario can rack up damage on yoshi (basicly thats what mario does don't deny that I don't want to explain myself) and the up smash is to be watched out for as yoshis get caught up in it. Marios moves though in themselves have nothing special; used in the right way though they can make easy kills.
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2005
Messages
1,345
Location
Olympia, WA
Fabrian since you play on kaillera and clearly know so many advanced tricks that no one else does lets play. I'd love to see your super unbelievable skills in person.

What's a nick that you usually play on and we can get a game sometime? Metroid is mine.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
392
Location
Montreal D.D.O
What is the egg trap? Never watched many yoshi's play.
It's basicly egg throw canceling into a drill that can lead into a spike.

I gave it the name but not many yoshis use it because it's really hard to do i only know 2 yoshis that used it and it was far from perfect... I'm currently trying to get it to be really effective as on keyboard it's really hard to perform. I learned a trick though that in teams it lets you shoot yoshi's egg low.

Fabrian since you play on kaillera and clearly know so many advanced tricks that no one else does lets play. I'd love to see your super unbelievable skills in person.

What's a nick that you usually play on and we can get a game sometime? Metroid is mine.
I don't follow anyones techniques and most of the things I do involves a little faint hit... So I know a lot in comboing because I dont like to kill when I play ^^ and basicly that's what i do when im bored...

I've already played you many times ;). My original name was DJMastaKilla all the way back like when kaillera started i switched every day from then cuz i got bored. In tournies I like to enter as DJ-Kila

2 hits? lolololol
lol do you play samus??? Dark Link even made a video with combos with her... well wtv explore samus for a two weeks or so thoroughly you'll see what I mean... I was surprised >.> btw samus can combo light charachters easy.
 

rokimomi

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
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Ann Arbor / Ypsilanti, MI
Samus wasnt meant for combos. Like, playing style would have to be concentrated. Note that I consider a combo for more than...50% lets say. Samus is more about getting hits in when it matters.
 

platinum kirby

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
128
Location
Mexico City
Sigh....First fo all, you've been mentioned several ambiguous (sp?) techniques that you havent proved legit so far.

Second, Those combos were done in the JAPANESE version of SSB. Samus cannot combo like that in the first SSB.

LOL, Mario is the only one you've been able to efficiently combo against? ROFL. Just ROFL.

A character isn't place higher/lower in the tier list just because of one bad match-up. Therefore Luigi>Jiggz=Wrong.

I regard you as a good player, but I'm also a recognized player among most people here, a close friend (well, not close since we live like 1000 km. + away from each other =D ) of Isai and a long time pro.


M3tr01D, he says he's played you. Can you confirm this, and tell me if we should trust him? Thx.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
392
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Montreal D.D.O
Sigh....First fo all, you've been mentioned several ambiguous (sp?) techniques that you havent proved legit so far.

Second, Those combos were done in the JAPANESE version of SSB. Samus cannot combo like that in the first SSB.

LOL, Mario is the only one you've been able to efficiently combo against? ROFL. Just ROFL.

A character isn't place higher/lower in the tier list just because of one bad match-up. Therefore Luigi>Jiggz=Wrong.

I regard you as a good player, but I'm also a recognized player among most people here, a close friend (well, not close since we live like 1000 km. + away from each other =D ) of Isai and a long time pro.


M3tr01D, he says he's played you. Can you confirm this, and tell me if we should trust him? Thx.
I'm workin on getting someone to make me a vid the only old vets that are on now are like meka and sometimes... geez calm down...

no no no >.> mario is the only one light enough for a good hit to fully be comboed with another without landing >.> because he has medium recovery as fox has the worst. Woops I mean weight not recovery.

jigs is good against characters heavier than pika but sucks against a ness because of the priority and that includes marios spam plus priority. Luigi can also punish any bad moves and is good against tall and light character's >.> but sucks against a link and he is weak against a pika. He is also good against himself.

I really do have more than one reason why I say these things... so little time and so much to write cmon give me a break>.>

I know your recognised platinum... You were on gamefaqs a long time ago working on your combo faq and posting a bit... I remember when you had just started it. I'm telling you I'm not new I already know what you guys did in the past. Where'd Johnny run off to though?

sigh metroid if you haven't noticed me you must be blind I make fun of everyone's name. lol jk
 

Nephiros

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
754
Just ****ing stick to a single one for ****'s sake. Y'know, I used to make fun of other peoples name too once so you can never really be sure.
 

platinum kirby

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 15, 2006
Messages
128
Location
Mexico City
Wow Fabrian, I'd never have thought you knew me for so long. I want to emphasize that I do not mean to offend you or to sound rude, even if some of my posts show that. I'm a guy who loves to debate and I'm fairly sure you have something to back up your statements.

And that brings me to yet another reply: IMHO, Jiggly is, if anything slightly better than Ness. Really, the ONLY thing that Jiggly should watch out for is Ness' low DJCs. A blocked DJCed Dair = death. Other than that, Jiggly has the upper hand the majority of the match. Once Jiggly gets the chance to land a throw or a Dair->throw, Ness is dead. In the air, Jiggz' Nair out prioritizes any air-to-air attack Ness does. I don't see how Jiggly could be destroyed by Ness =/


And I don't really get the thing about Yoshi and his combos. Yoshi can easily 70%+ combo any character off an U-tilt with the exception of Kirby and Jiggly.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
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Montreal D.D.O
And I don't really get the thing about Yoshi and his combos. Yoshi can easily 70%+ combo any character off an U-tilt with the exception of Kirby and Jiggly.
It's because I don't like to up tilt so before I choose yoshi I check how many combos I can do on the challengers character choice without that move. Depends on which playing style I want to practice though. Any move that leads to a drill with yoshi I dont use much..
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
Joined
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Olympia, WA
can't really recognize you if you don't give me a nick. sorry I don't memorize every kaillera players crappy playstyle, but if you want me (and others) to know who you are then you have to post a nick.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
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Montreal D.D.O
players do know me >.>... I guess that was supposed to be an insult... sigh wtv
I just don't want players to copy try and copy what I do and then find out I'm playing myself.

Never said I wanted you to know who I am but I wanted you to guess ^^. Those 2 words are different verbs so don't put words in my mouth I never said.
 

SuPeRbOoM

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
4,509
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
players do know me >.>... I guess that was supposed to be an insult... sigh wtv
I just don't want players to copy try and copy what I do and then find out I'm playing myself.

Never said I wanted you to know who I am but I wanted you to guess ^^. Those 2 words are different verbs so don't put words in my mouth I never said.
maybe you just suck, might be doing kaillera good by not having your style of play
 

rokimomi

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
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Ann Arbor / Ypsilanti, MI
Thems fightin words boi. I smell a duel. Take ten paces and SMASH!!!!! Friggin set up battles if you want to prove worth online. Cept me... I suck online. But if you can make it over here, Id be glad to prawn some. Other than that, plz settle disputes of skill online and tell us the results.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
392
Location
Montreal D.D.O
maybe you have chicken, might be doing kaillera good by giving me some.
What are you talking about your not even in this argument, your not supposed to be here shoo shooo!!! Lol seriously though wth? I'm not trying to start a fight keep your hissy fits to yourselves...

Thems fightin words boi. I smell a duel. Take ten paces and SMASH!!!!! Friggin set up battles if you want to prove worth online. Cept me... I suck online. But if you can make it over here, Id be glad to prawn some. Other than that, plz settle disputes of skill online and tell us the results.
You sure that smell you just took in was a duel? You sure you didn't just fart?
lol im just kidding
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Olympia, WA
I just want to see your strategies for luigi that make him top tier that malva and other experts don't know about, I don't get why you won't post a name so I can see them for myself. I enjoy playing ssb and I enjoy getting better, if you know something I don't I'd really like to know, not just "say you know it" then never show anyone.


I make fun of people online all the time, so are you saying that you're me? or are you one of those ixi players that try to make fun of people but really suck?
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Montreal D.D.O
I just want to see your strategies for luigi that make him top tier that malva and other experts don't know about, I don't get why you won't post a name so I can see them for myself. I enjoy playing ssb and I enjoy getting better, if you know something I don't I'd really like to know, not just "say you know it" then never show anyone.


I make fun of people online all the time, so are you saying that you're me? or are you one of those ixi players that try to make fun of people but really suck?
no i don't play much and I'm not part of iXi... I sometimes go on as Naruto Chaos if i see someone on that know like D.link. I usually wont play as Naruto Chaos though. Sometimes I'm Katon too...

and when I said it's obvious I mean I actually put my name up a few times >.>... i never said luigi was top tier i just said over jiggly >.> geez stop exagerating i didn't kill your parents or anything... and metroid i never see you on so calm that yapping clapping yellow plack teeth holding aggresive mouth >.> for a few minutes...
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
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Olympia, WA
The problem with that is that all the characters have counterparts which they do bad against.
C.Falcon its kirby and ness mostly
Yoshi its luigi and jiggly
Kirby its fox... you know what i mean
So then tiers is completely based on personal preference as characters have their counterparts. The reason why we think in ranks from highest to lowest is because of the ability of the players themselfves, who can't keep up (or have a harder time) with the disadvantages of certain characters to be able to consider them to be good ( that or many have not seen any master a less popular character).

Some people make ness look like hes invincible. Some make yoshi look like he has an unlimited star. Some make pika look like he's the best edgeguarding king. Some make kirby look like he's using a gameshark code. Even some who make fox look like he was from Marvel vs Capcom... but not even malva has been able to do great things with all characters in a match.

because tiers are mostly based on personal preference and we have not seen everykind of player in this game yet, I'll say that we should base these rankings more on popularity.

Really though from what I've seen that is what most of you have done anyways.

I have to dig a little bit farther for your luigi comment, I should have that here soon.
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
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I meant that spammable down smash attack with the yo-yo. The only spike that actually affects anything is kirby's down aerial and yoshi's.
And don't worry platinum I came to common terms with you and that last post on the popularity thing you don't need to defend yourself. I just don't want to see another weird tier list that makes people talk on kaillera.

I'm still willing to give a demo of the new things i've seen

Here's you saying you are willing to show unknown techniques. Maybe today if I have time you could show me?

I'll look for the luigi post more later.
 

Fabrian

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
392
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Montreal D.D.O
Here's you talking about tier list being popularity again.
I have to dig a little bit farther for your luigi comment, I should have that here soon.
Here's you saying you are willing to show unknown techniques. Maybe today if I have time you could show me?

I'll look for the luigi post more later.
did you read what you wanted to read or what I said... I've replied 50 times (take that literally and I shall murder you) to most of these >.>...
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
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Olympia, WA
well....... tbh I forgot what position I was trying to argue. ignore those :chuckle: I just kinda quoted some of your posts :dizzy:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
My view on the tiers for SSB:

-High-
C. Falcon
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Kirby

-Middle-
Samus
Pikachu
DK
Ness

-Low-
Yoshi
Mario
Fox
Link

Now, my explanations.

-High Tier-

Captain Falcon has average weight, which is enough to stay alive went hit off the stage, whether in Sector Z or some other place. All of his moves don't take up many frames (except the obvious Falcon Punch), and I find that I can use that to my advantage. I especially think he should be in the high tier because of his ability to string together combos, like the one involving the Forward throw, Up+Smash, and continuous Uair attacks into a Falcon Dive. His Dair attack is useful for either stopping the enemy after they block so that he can grab or something, or using "Z-Canceling" right after hitting an enemy with it so that the enemy is easy range for a Forward Smash, Nair attack, or even a Falcon Punch.

Jigglypuff is the most underestimated character people I have played have ever seen in SSB64, particularly because of her ability to do a Captain-Falcon-like combo, finishing off the opponent with a guaranteed successful Rest in mid-air if you know how to do the combo right. Pound, I find, is often quite annoying for most people and I can use that to my advantage. Even though she is the lightest character, I find that if I can start the Jigglypuff combo, her weight doesn't matter.

Luigi in many ways seems similar to Mario, but I find that I can count on his Super Jump Punch move very often. His Dair attack sets opponents up for an almost guaranteed Super Jump Punch, either if I don't touch the ground while doing it, or I need to Z-Cancel. His Down-Tilt attack is a bit of a bonus, since it's quicker than Mario's and because many people don't expect to see it used.

Kirby is supposedly rated as "cheap" in this game relative to how he is in Melee. Here, he has a Dair attack that is a Meteor Attack AND a combo move to function both as a stopping move for people trying to get back on the stage, and a move that does almost 30% damage if done at the right time. His Smash attacks cover a fairly wide range and his ability to puff up to come back to the stage is a plus.

-Middle Tier-

Samus has a similar style to Captain Falcon, and is, technically, the second heaviest character in the game (minus traction and low falling speed). Her special moves make her easy to use and strong in many ways. Her Screw Attack literally "screws up" any sort of plan to attack from above and her Charge Shot is similar to DK's Giant Punch. Her Dair attack, like Captain Falcon's, sets people up for combos; after one hit at around 60%, the opponent goes straight down helplessly or straight up if hit on the ground. If hit on the ground, Samus can do any move from a Forward Smash to firing a Charge Shot, which makes her all the better to use.

Pikachu has a very wide range in his attacks. His Fair, Uair, and Dair is able to hit people from places they thought they were safe in when they got close to Pikachu. His Fair and Dair are exceedingly strong moves to string into combos, such as a Fair followed by a Forward Smash. Thunder isn't so good, since opponents can hear it a mile away and block in time.

DK is another Captain-Falcon-like combo maker. Moves like his Dair and Hand Slap put opponents in a very awkward position - straight up when hit on the ground - and from there DK can use his Giant Punch or Forward Smash. He's a little bit of a big target, but he makes up for it with his range.

Ness has been made a bit too powerful along with Kirby here. The simplest thing a Ness master could possibly do is to repeatedly hit enemies with Ness's Dair. His Down Smash and Up Smash are exceedingly strong and have great range, but they do take up some time to perform fully. He seems to be about as heavy as Luigi without his low falling speed and traction, but he still flies far when hit, and often times, enemies can see that you're trying to get back onstage when you use PK Thunder, and succeed in Edge Guarding, or the other outcome, you aim improperly and you go in a direction you want to go with PK Thunder.

-Low Tier-

The most obvious disadvantage of Yoshi, is that he has no third jump, which means that an Edge Guarder could easily prevent him from coming back to the stage with one hit. Egg Lay and Egg Throw are not that conventional, Ground Pound being the only move that can effectively fool people when they're trying to hit you from below. His Dair, however, is a great tool to rack up damage, like with Kirby's Dair.

Mario is like Luigi with no ability to do the so-called "Fire Jump Punch". Without that ability, he just seems like a character that only specializes in close-range combat without any sort of strong moves except maybe the Up Smash. His range is noticeably shorter than most of the other characters, and his moves seem to be downgraded from those of Luigi (e.g. Luigi Cyclone to Mario Tornado). His Back Throw is his most useful move, but eventually, people can figure out a way to avoid grabs.

Fox is more speed than power here, but unfortunately, that's not the case with his Fire Fox (i.e. Edge Guarders can see when he's coming). His aerial attacks don't make enemies fly far when he hits them with the moves, and I find that they can often be easily countered. His Down Smash is invaluable, since it's the only thing besides a thrown Star Rod and makes you fly directly sideways, and his Up Smash is his strongest move. Reflect is a joy to use (especially when reflecting Arwing lasers at your opponents), but it doesn't offer the same advantage as in Melee.

Finally, Link. Link has the lowest jump, and his Spin Attack also covers the least vertical range of all recovery moves in the game. Masters of Link can use the Boomerang and Bombs to confuse and annoy enemies, but it isn't long before they charge their way through to Link. His throws are very strong, but they are offset by the fact that he needs to use the Hookshot to grab them, which is slow to start. His Forward Smash and Fair both deal 20% on the first hit, which is quite strong, but unfortunately, many of his other attacks take up a lot of frames even after the attack is finished, leaving Link wide open for most of the fight.
 
D

Deleted member

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I don't play well as Fox, and neither does my friend. And I did look at some of Fox's other moves. And for some of the characters, the reason I only mentioned one specific move is because most of their other moves don't seem so significant.
 

rokimomi

Smash Lord
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Ann Arbor / Ypsilanti, MI
Well look again. Another thing is that the fact fox's moves dont hit people "far" is the reason he's so deadly. He has many 0-death combos. Although not as easy as CF or jiggly's, it does rank him very high. And although the shine isnt that good, its still good.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Well, all right, fine. I simply voiced my opinion. I didn't mean that it would apply to other people as well.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Thanks. Just getting used to voicing my own opinions. I did expect some challenges to them.
 

ant-d

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
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London, England
Realise that the tier list isn't just opinion. The things you posted are not accurate at all.

I mean if you don't know the game it seems stupid to comment.

Pikachu: Such as a Fair followed by a Forward Smash
DK is another Captain-Falcon-like combo maker
Fox is more speed than power here. Reflect is a joy to use
No mention of JC Shine...

Really, it's funny to read such nonsense.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Realise that the tier list isn't just opinion. The things you posted are not accurate at all.

I mean if you don't know the game it seems stupid to comment.



No mention of JC Shine...

Really, it's funny to read such nonsense.
I do know the game. This is simply the way that I see it. Melee I might not know too well since I'm getting used to hearing the terms, but 64 I've been playing since 2000.

And I did get a look at the generally accepted tier list for SSB. I'd think the reason this thread still exists even though there is such a list is for people to voice their own opinions.
 

platinum kirby

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
128
Location
Mexico City
Man, such an erratic (sp?) tier list, AGAIN. Docile, I'd like to counter some of your statements, and I say some because you did mention some good points, and other points were valid for other things but tier list placement. I'd like to rewrite the commonly accepted tier list again, and compare it to yours.

Top High

Pikachu C. Falcon
Kirby Jigglypuff
Ness* Luigi
Kirby
High
Middle
Fox
C. Falcon Samus
Pikachu
Middle DK
Ness
Jigglypuff
Mario Low
Yoshi
Yoshi
Low Mario
Fox
DK Link
Luigi

Bottom

Samus
Link

Okay. first, lets analyze your high (top/high) tier.

C. Falcon:

- CF doesn't have average weight, he's the 3rd heaviest character in the game. If that wasn't enough, he's also got the WORST recovery hit in the game, thus he's prone to the longest. high damaging combos in the game. This is one of the most solid reasons why he's never been placed on the top tier.

- His combo ability is indeed the main reason, along with his running speed and throw game/range, why he's placed high. Dair isn't exactly something to emphasize on since it isn't THAT important when playing with Falcon.

- You forgot to mention that he's arguably the easiest character to edge-guard. That alone should represent sufficient reason to not place him in the TOP TIER.


Jigglypuff

- You point out her versatile combo ability, which is great, for sure. This is IMO the one and only reason why she got bumped so high in a few years.

- You failed to mention her great horizontal recovery and her amazing anti-edgeguard Nair.

- And then you hit the spot when you mention her weight. You must take into consideration that while she has really good hit-recovery speed, she's still the lightest character inthe game. Luigi, Mario, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, all can kill her with 0%-death combos. Not to mention she has some BAD match ups (SAMUS, Mario and Luigi). Against Fox she has a slight disadvantage too, since it's easier for Fox to land a combo starter first. Against Ness, even match in which she should NEVER, ever blocked a low DJCed attack.

- In short, her combo ability doesn't 100% make up for her weight (and hit-box, and range), which keeps her from being high or top tier.


Luigi

-Yet again, you say good things about his good points. UpB is underrated by some and overrated by many. While deadly, there aren't many situations where you can land a clean UpB, besides combos.

- Combos. While he's got plenty of killer ones, and has overall many ways to land them, he suffers from this horrible disease: slow aerial movement and not short enough short hop. It is VERY hard for hit to short hop (SH) -> Dair short characters, whom happen to be the ones in the top tier. And he has more bad matchups than good ones. He pretty much has the upper hand against Falcon, Yoshi, DK and Jigglypuff. Not too good for someone who you recognize as a high tier character.

- You also forgot to mention his average running speed, the fact that he is easy to edge-guard and that his floatiness gives him problems when fighting faster character in th air (except perhaps for Falcon). Enough downsides to prevent him from being praised as top tier. Oh, he's also the 3rd or 4th lighstest character O.O


Kirby

- You point out his Dair, but not for the good reasons. Rather than damage (which is high), Dair feared because of it's high priority, being a combo starter, and yes, being a fantastic spike.

- You should've said more about his combo ability. He has several starters, high damage (even killer) combos against ALL the crew and his game revolves around comboing most fo the time.

- His 2nd best recovery isn't a "plus", it's a strong reason why he's top tier. You also failed to mention he can be and excellent edge-guarder.

- His smash attacks, while great, are hardly regarded as important when explaning his placement in the list nowadays.



Now, let's continue with your Middle Tier

Samus


- Ugh....first, she isn't the 2nd heaviest character. She's the fourth lightest. Are you telling me she's heavier than Link or DK? WTF.

- Second. her special attacks aren't particularly notorious, except for Screw Attack, an attack that has an invincible start-up, but which can also be escaped of with good DI easily.

- Her Dair is one of her strongest attacks, true, but it hardly sets ups combos. If you knew the game, you'd know that Samus has the worst combo ability in the game, being able to pull off a decent combo after the opponent has been severely damaged, and only by means of her Dair. That doesn't seem worth middle tier if you ask me.

- Her charge shot is only useful every once in a while, and even though she has charge cancelling and different tricks with her tiny charge shots, it's still a move that doesn't shine and isn't one of her best.


Pikachu


- You failed to mention U-smash, U-tilt, Neutral A, Bair, Nair, Extended quick attack, best recovery in the game, arguably best edge-guarding tactics in the game, most versatile combo ability , the fact that he's a small hit box and thathe's got, arguably, the best throw range in the game as well as one of the strongest throws.

- Thunder should only be used as a combo finisher.


DK

- He's not a combo maker. he can only make good combos in certain stages and they're fairly situational.

- Hand Slap is only effective when used every once in a while. It's hardly a main weapon since it can be avoided easily and leaves him opento attacks.

- Giant Punch is only good as a combo finisher, when you get a BIG opening, or when you do Full Charge Giant Punch Cancelling, to create mind games.

- Yes, he's a big target. He's got the worst vertical recovery and he's fairly easy to edge-guard. In a game where the capability of coming back to the stage is pivotal, this is a huge downside. Oh, he's also got the third worst hit-recovery and is prone to long, damaging combos.

Ness

- You say you've been playing since 2000 and you don't mention Double Jump Cancelling, which, along with his throws and good combos, make him top (high*) tier.

- And repeated Dairs can be escaped from with teching by a four year old, with the exception of the situation where you're being struck towards a small platform. Even so, that's a very old tactic that doesn't apply to the tier list.

- His smashes are good but not the source of his offensive game.

- You do talk about how easy it is to interrupt his PK thunder, but while this is very true and a valid argument to downgrade him to high tier, it's still plausible to learn to do it from Maximum distance and aim it properly towards the edge to avoid edge-guarding as much as possible.



And last, your Low Tier



Yoshi

- You don't abuse/exploit Yoshi's specials, at all. He's granted a lot of resistance during his second jump, so he isn't that easy to edge-guard.

- You don't know a thing about Yoshi. He can use Parrying, DJC and has a great combo ability too. More on this later.


Mario

- Mario is played in a very different way than Luigi. His super jump punch is a combo finisher, as well as a quick tool to escape incoming attacks.

- Mario's game revolves around short hopped attacks, which prove much more annoying, efficient and comboing than Luigi's aerial game.

- Mario doesn't need Fire UpB, his Up smash is good enough to scare any character.

- Unlike Luigi, he's got an amazing, annoying fireball-> throw game, which enhances is ways to grab a character. In fact, one of the greatest points of Mario is how versatile his throw game is.

- His Mario Tornado is far better than Luigi's, since it's used in the middle of some combos, and it can be used as a no-matter-the-% spike, since it has a fixed knock-back.




Fox

- Fox is the quickest character in the game, and Fire Fox is indeed easy to interrupt. This, and MAYBE the fact that he's got the 5th worst hit-recovery, is what prevents him from being top tier. Just, otherwise, I'd say he's the best character in the game. He's Top Tier in the japanese version of SSB.

- As mentioned earlier, it is because of the low knockback of his aerial moves that he can do killer combos against EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER. And his aerials DO have priority. Fox has the best short hop game among the whole cast.

His D-smash isn't invaluable. U-smash and short hopped Dair are. Oh, and Neutral A.


-You cannot think of posting a tier list if you don't even know what the characters can do. Fox's Reflector is a pain in the *** when your opponent knows how to reflector cancel. It's much more efficient as an attack than it is as a reflector. Reflecting ARwing shots? Only a crappy player would be hit by those.



Link


- Correct tier placement, some stupid statements.

- His throw isn't considered back because of slow start-up, but because it leaves Link open for along time if he misses.

- Masters of Link (Isai) Use boomerang, bomb, Neutral A, U-tilt, Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, D-smash,F-smash, U-smash, short hops and dash. Link pros use those, too =D.



- MANY agree that if Link had a decent recovery, he'd be AT LEAST middle tier. He's got a monstrous projectile game, great edge-guarding tactics, good combos and several disjointed hit-boxes.



And there, my friend, are a lot of reasons why your tier list is FAR from being accurate.

I'll give you quick notes on why the commonly accepted tier list is, well, commonly accepted.

TOP TIER

PIkachu: One of the best combo abilities in the game. U-air priority. U-tilt priority. Best throw range. Best recovery (extended quick attack). Best edge-guarding tactics. Good running speed. Good SHed attacks. Fairly Quick movement overall. Excellent dash. Great roll. Neutral A->throw.

Cons: below average weight and short range. Bad points that are destroyed by his pros.

Kirby: Again, one of the best combo abilities in the game. U-tilt, best disjointed hitbox in the game. 2nd Best recovery. Short and small. F-smash. Great dash. Great roll. Good running speed. Decent throws. 4 aerial disjointed hit-boxes. Great edge-guarding techniques. Shortest learning curve.

Cons: 2nd lightest character, he kinda lacks range


Ness*: Double Jump Cancelling, which grants him to control his aerial movement at any height, a thing that only Yoshi can do besides him. Very good combo ability. Low DJCed attacks. Ability to break a shield once a single low DCJed attack is blocked. Extended horizontal second jump. Two of the strongest throws in the game. High-priority U-tilt. D-smash and U-smash are disjointed hit-boxes. Strong aerial attacks. Good dash. Good edge-guarding tactics.

Cons: bad running speed, not too good throw range, easy to edgeguard unless PK Comet is performed flawlessly.

* The last statement is what is used as a valid argument that some people use to place him as high tier.


HIGH TIER


Fox: 2nd best running speed. FASTEST character overall. Shine/Reflector cancelling. Only character that can do relatively easy killer combos on all the characters. Infinite Combo against 5 characters. Best short hop game. Short hopped double lasers. Neutral A. Up smash. Great dash and throw range.


Cons: 5th worst hit-recovery, 2nd/3rd easiest character to edge-guard.



C. Falcon: Easy, damaging combos against all the characters. 2nd best throw range. Throw is a combo starter. Up smash. Strong aerials. Good range overall. Extended Falcon Dive on the ground. Best Running Speed. Good short hop. Best dash dance. Best dash.

Cons: Worst hit-recovery, easiest character to edge-guard.


MIDDLE TIER


Jigglypuff: 0%-death off a throw/Dair against the majority of the characters. Can set up a killer combo regardless how damaged the opponent is. Nair is a disjointed hitbox. Best or second Best (I don't remember) horizontal recovery. Good edgeguarder. Good aerial game. U-tilt will out prioritize a lot of aerial attacks when timed right. Back throw has a lot of knockback. SUPER DASH =D.

Cons: lacks range, depends solely on her combos to win most of the time. Lightest character, cannot be shield-broken or she dies.


Mario: Great projectile game. Good recovery. Fireball->throw set ups. SHed Dair-> Uair to start a combo against any character. Some killer combos. Great short hop game. Great smashes. Neutral A->throw combo. Good throw range, good throws. Fairly decent air-to-air attacks. Good roll. DownB spike. Good edgeguarder.


Cons: Average weight, has bad matchups against Pika and Fox. I guess he's middle because he doesn't really has the upper hand against higher ranked character, except perhaps for Kirby and Falcon.


Yoshi: Double Jump Cancelling that benefits from his second jump's resistance. Parrying. U-tilt (high priority, combo starter). High-damage combos against all characters (some killer kombos). Shield-breaking low DJCed Nair. Good dash attack. Good Up and Down smashes. NEUTRAL A. Great edgeguarder.

Cons: Easy to edgeguard once he's been damaged enough. 4th worst hit recovery, prone to long combos. 3rd worst throw. Has some BAD matchups.


LOW TIER

DK: Infinite Throw Trap AKA ITT. Back throw. Aerial throw-> Giant Punch. Full Charge Giant Punch cancelling. Bair (especially after a fast fall). D-tilt. Nice roll, good throw priority. Really good edgeguarder. Invincible UpB frames and priority.

Cons: 3rd worst hit-recovery. Largest target. Easy to edgeguard, worst vertical recovery. SLOW aerial attacks, though this is somehow stage dependant, since you can do some freaking awesome things with his aerials by platform-drop attacking.


Bottom

Samus: Best hit-recovery in the game. UpB invincible start up. Great dash and running speed. Arguably best spike (Dair). One of the strongest aerials (Bair). Great air to air attack (Fair). Bomb mind games. Forward smash. Neutral A. Charge Cancelling. Fairly good recovery. Nice edge-guarding tactics.


Cons: Worst Roll. 2nd worst throw. 4th lightest character. Worst combo ability in the game.


Link: Best (monstrous) projectile game. Decent combo ability (better against heavier dudes). Several disjointed hit-boxes. Good overall speed, extremely efficient short hopped and fast falling attacks. EXCELLENT edgeguarder. Neutral A.


Cons: Worst recovery, 2nd worst hit-recovert, worst throw.



If you want (can) to counter this tier list or reasons, I'll be glad to debate with you.
 
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