Tier List Speculation

[WaffleDinosaur]

How does one beat Ike again? I saw a great Fox lose to a good Ike and started wondering.
My guesses:
Moves have big start-up->focus on interupting.
Weak to cross ups.
Grabs have such reward that you don't want to mess with them->try to play a bit outside dash SH nair range where (I think?) you can shield fairs and react to Quickdraws and interrupt them and don't have to take the grab/aerial/WD mixups.

Just kill him four times

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Yeah that's basically it, although his SH nair goes a really long distance so it might be better to get in his zone even more such that you force him to shield or whiff a grounded move and then punish. You can also asdi down or crouch cancel his nair/etc. as well to punish, and watch out for his jab. It's a very good normal but it still loses to a solid grounded game. As Fox you have a lot of ways to make him commit to crappy options because of dd/running shine/ability to attack relatively safely from different angles in the air. Or you can laser and he has to go rambo by necessity since he loses the camping game, although I'd be inclined to dash dance camp moreso than laser camp.

Crossups are good because his fastest move oos is bair, which iirc is frame 12. On the front of his shield he has nair which is also frame 12 and takes more frames to reach the front of him and grab which has poor range.

eideeiit Also I'm not a Fox or an Ike, but that's my understanding (it's pretty universal counterplay for fast characters, it's just Fox is very good at it).

 

[DMG]

Switch from Fox to Falcon, the MU is significantly easier. I mean there's a pretty decent swarth of characters Ike "should" lose to, but majority of them still reqiure enough of MU knowledge and general intuition from playing. May be a flaw of the players, or the character (I think it's mostly character based, where his limited dynamic flexibility vs stronger characters limits reasonable player choices, making them appear to be somewhat predictable), but I feel like if you sit down and play a decent number of games back to back (like 6 or more serious) with even strong Ike players, your understanding of the character and how to handle it will skyrocket at a rate you wouldn't normally assume.

Some character like Ganon you might "figure out" at a quick rate, and you wouldn't assume that for a character like Ike, but I think it's true IF you're decent enough of a player with a decent enough character. People in theorycraft use his Quickdraw as a blanket band-aid to fix many things or to add depth to his gameplay, but it's way less good in practice. Playing vs the character (with a good main) a relatively decent amount of time, will give you a realistic assessment of when and what QD will accomplish, which then leads to breaking down the other aspects of Ike much simpler and straight forward.

 

[Zach777]

Fox vs Ike is pretty straightforward.

Fox dasd dances outside of Ike's quickdraw range, while not firing any lasers that could get him in trouble. If Ike
gets close , bait out an aerial and punish start pressuring shield(Ike's shield is not great)

Fox has to acknowledge that edgeguarding Ike is complex and dangerous for the fox player if he screws so just play that safe.

Fox also will probably die offstage super easily due to Ike's fair and long lasting moves. I mean like, Fox will die even easier to Ike than to other chars.

All I know of the MU.

EDIT: Other people beat me in answering the question.

 

[Player -0]

to be super fair it's like super spooky for Fox kinda.

My dash dance sucks and I've been trying to work on it but not playing vs. people for extended periods of time really hurts lel.

So:

x____o = Fox is outside of run JC grab range and Ike can't do anything like RAR Bair/etc because Fox is right inside of dash range. Fox is kinda safe from QD on the outside range of his dash dance he gets snagged by QD Attack/QDJC Grab. On the inside range of his dash dance he gets kinda F-Tilt poked (and kinda QD Attack snagged depending on range specifics).

Then you got the rest of the friggen dash dance interaction which is dumb and it's like, hurp de derp Fox dashes away because Ike is like I'ma pretend to JC grab you but surprise I just RAR'ed and Fox was too slow to stuff with Nair and you don't trade with big sword guy so he dashes away some more. Ike is like rah QD attack from air or something and then it's like hurp.

Alternatively Fox runs in and does shine and then is behind Ike and Ike is screwed.

 

[JRC LSS]

Sort of unrelated, but is there any sort of formula to calculate how long it takes to escape a grab based on % / etc? Also, is it true that pummels stale the throw or some weirdness?

Curious if I could whip something up for each character in terms of like, "X pummels at Y % are guaranteed pre-throw".

I don't have an exact formula for you, but I can answer some questions based on some testing I just did. The number of frames until a character escapes a grab scales with percent and can be lowered by mashing. Pummeling, or damage from any other source, will not affect this number. If the character getting grabbed is being pummeled during the time when he would have escaped, then the character will be released only after the pummel animation finishes. As far as I can tell, it is impossible to throw before this escape happens.

Mashing can be control stick movements as well as button presses and both can be done on the same frames for an additive effect (which is why d-pad set to smash is so good). Multiple buttons on the same frame does no more than a single button press. Perfect mashing will break grabs very quickly. For example, to guarantee just one pummel into a throw, you need to get your opponent up to around 180% (with Fox as the grabber).

And yeah, tether characters (not including Yoshi) definitely get screwed over. Mashing counts during the reel-in animation. It's possible for opponents to break out of their grabs before they can even throw.

 

[Player -0]

for a minute I was like, maybe that's why PMDT was trying to remove the awkward max length grab thing from TLink/Link and how they broke Link's grab but then I remembered it paused for a second then teleported person into the grab

so pretty much same time frame.

aka rip Link

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

>last post: October 25

I guess this is what happens when there's no more chance for changes or buffs
the process of constructing tierlists to argue for benefits for your character is no longer necessary

plus things have coalesced enough that discussion is more or less stagnant

I still think charizard is bad btw

 

[ilysm]

Well Sosa did a writeup saying Pit is A-Tier so I figured we should at least have one thing to realistically discuss.

 

[Strong Badam]

Well Sosa did a writeup saying Pit is A-Tier so I figured we should at least have one thing to realistically discuss.

I don't see where he said that Pit is A-Tier here. He says upper mid tier.

 

[Ripple]

I don't see where he said that Pit is A-Tier here. He says upper mid tier.

"if you look at the current PMU tier list id accurately put him in A tier probably right above Falco."

hardly the upper mid most people thought it would be

 

[Player -0]

Sosa doesn't even mention his most broken tool, dat mirror shield.

smh

 

[Strong Badam]

"if you look at the current PMU tier list id accurately put him in A tier probably right above Falco."

hardly the upper mid most people thought it would be

I stand corrected.

Reading is hard.

 

[CORY]

yeah, just take center stage and react, amirite?

 

[ilysm]

Sosa doesn't even mention his most broken tool, dat mirror shield.

smh

If not joke, please explain. I know almost zero about Pit.

 

[Player -0]

has like no endlag. You keep drift/momentum. You can reverse momentum. Has super armor when pulling out. Gets janked out by Bairs/weird stuff (I'm not even completely sure about this part). You can essentially do a SH and have minimal lag because you start putting it away when you land.

like what's a disadvantaged position?


Glide -> Jump -> Shield right through Marth F-Smash kreygasm

 

[Talia of Blue Flames]

Hey everyone, is Ike top tier yet?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Hey everyone, is Ike top tier yet?

no

 

[Player -0]

"of Blue Flames"

mains Ike

who dis. Lordling/Thane person?

 

[Player -0]

wake me up.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

wake me up.

Yep. She's busted. Shoutouts to @mawwwk for making the gify/finding at least half of them.

 

[DrinkingFood]

wake me up.

I hate everything about this

 

[DMG]

I told you all that Trump would make PM great again and did anyone take me seriously? No.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey everyone, is Ike top tier yet?

don juan lordling loves then leaves

 

[_Chrome]

I told you all that Trump would make PM great again and did anyone take me seriously? No.

It's gonna be fantastic - I think you'll like it! #MPMGA

P.S. Zero Suit Samus is crooked; such a nasty woman.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Yung Karp, Professional Theory****poster presents:

End of 2016/1 year since death of PMDT tierlist

based sort of (a lot) on opinions and sort of on matchups, generally trying to forecast tiers rather than describe present situations

characters are ordered within tiers but the order is kinda fuzzy, plus or minus 1.5 places
letter grades are indicative of relative quality, that is the top row and the second have a noticeable gap, same thing between the second row and the rest of the cast
tink is the gatekeeper, if a character is better than tink, they have a clear shot against almost all the characters in the game, if not, they can get gatekept hard by both tink or other characters above them

notes/complaints I've thought of/seen so far:
rob is really low, (probably due to the drop in representation and public complaints about him from oracle/df) but I didn't really feel thaat comfortable putting him anywhere else
mewtwo is kinda the bridge between A tier and 100 tier, higher than most tierlists have him
DK isn't top 15 (because he's not)
olimar is generally higher than most people, but that's because I listen to what steelguttey says about olimar
pit is higher than most put him but that's because he's a good character
someone complained that jiggs was too low
ganon barely saves himself from being bottom tier because a. it makes the list look more like a normal distribution and b. I think he's easier to use than everyone below him, with an rps game that is bound to net him some neutral victories sometimes

also I think sonic has slowly climbed on every tierlist I've ever made

 

[eideeiit]

I like this a lot. Some chars feel a bit too low (most notably Samus), but that's just a thing with PM tier lists. Nutty game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think mewtwo belongs in top tier tbh, maybe a few other characters as well, but mewtwo's going to see a huge jump in realistic potential with the release of the smashbox. Perfectly consistent wavedash lengths and up-b angles will be ridiculous

 

[steelguttey]

olimar is generally higher than most people, but that's because I listen to what steelguttey says about olimar

lmaoo hez gud i swear

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

lmaoo hez gud i swear

don't worry I believe u

 

[Player -0]

Sonic goes up because the back forth is slowly becoming stronger. Combos out of anything furreal too.

 

[Journal]

Do you all agree with the current PMTV tier list, which has Diddy Kong as better than Fox? A lot of the times it seems like Diddy Kong without a banana isn't a top tier, pretty much anyone can learn how to use items, and at least in the head to head if a fox gets a hold of a banana, he goes from an amazing character to an even better one.

 

[Soft Serve]

Do you all agree with the current PMTV tier list, which has Diddy Kong as better than Fox? A lot of the times it seems like Diddy Kong without a banana isn't a top tier, pretty much anyone can learn how to use items, and at least in the head to head if a fox gets a hold of a banana, he goes from an amazing character to an even better one.

I think diddy is better than fox but neither are the best character

some order of MK/Wolf. then diddy/fox/m2 is my top 5

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah i think i'll jump on the mewtwo top 5 train too, i think smashbox legality is kind of inevitable and that's huge for anyone with precision barriers. Mewtwo's already one of the best characters at skewing punish game, so even if you consider his neutral weak (as far as PM characters go) due to his movement being generally slow and/or committed, he doesn't even have to win neutral as much as any other character. With smashbox, things like advanced teleport platform movement, fullhop teleport autocancels, consistent wavedash distances (including the longest one every time), and 100% consistent pivots for his long dash length are all bigger performance buffs than any other character is going to see. I was already seeing a top 10 character in him and this is really going to close what little gap remained.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

yeah i think i'll jump on the mewtwo top 5 train too, i think smashbox legality is kind of inevitable and that's huge for anyone with precision barriers. Mewtwo's already one of the best characters at skewing punish game, so even if you consider his neutral weak (as far as PM characters go) due to his movement being generally slow and/or committed, he doesn't even have to win neutral as much as any other character. With smashbox, things like advanced teleport platform movement, fullhop teleport autocancels, consistent wavedash distances (including the longest one every time), and 100% consistent pivots for his long dash length are all bigger performance buffs than any other character is going to see. I was already seeing a top 10 character in him and this is really going to close what little gap remained.

where do you think rob's location on a tier list is nowadays

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Mewtwo is top 5 and the Smashbox's legality isn't particularly relevant to that notion.

 

[DMG]

Mewtwo has some MU's I'm not too sure about, but the overall meta trends are highly in his favor. Smashbox is overrated and will take awhile for majority of players to grind out if they are seeking some advantage.

Everything points towards exceptionally high barrier of entry and long/difficult learning period (especially if we're talking about performing under actual tourney pressure). Smashbox for $50 and an optional stick for movement = 2000x more Mewtwo lords coming to bracket and being absolute nerds with ledge dash reverse float Bair chain death nonsense.

 

[Deleted member]

idk about top 5 but mewtwo is undeniably top 10.

smash box wont matter tbh. the reason you're losing isn't your control scheme.

 

[InfinityCollision]

You can already do all the important teleport stuff with Kadano-style gate mods. I've been doing my own mods for about a year and a half now.

Smash Box eases access to some intermediary angles, but opening up the 17 degree inputs is far more important for general movement purposes. I'm on the Smash Box hype train, but mostly for ergonomic reasons and eliminating the need to break in+mod a new controller every so often.

Mewtwo has some MU's I'm not too sure about

Such as?

 

[DMG]

M2 seems very solid against the trend of MK Wolf Diddy all getting extremely popular, but a couple odd chars that don't feel so combo-food for him + may have something in neutral that's annoying, like Link or TL. Even if say oddball stuff like Zard hangs around in PM meta, I feel something like that would be a bigger hindrance to Mewtwo viability than the Meta being essentially 6 chars, since the other 5 would likely be extremely tasty for him to to combo to death from fairly minor mistakes (3 spacies, MK, and Diddy)