Mc.Rad
Smash Lord
But isn't that Melee Fox?"I wanna play a character that has polarized matchups and mechanics and only have 5-5s XD"
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But isn't that Melee Fox?"I wanna play a character that has polarized matchups and mechanics and only have 5-5s XD"
I really dont like how some characters have no losing match ups and how some have very few winning match ups. For a game who at one point had balance in its mission statement, im having trouble seeing it at the current patch.It's taking too long though.
PMDT didn't decide yet if they want every character to be viable as solo main or they wanna keep some cancerous design in detriment of having polarized matchups.
What a hard concept to grasp, am I right ?
"I wanna play a character that has polarized matchups and mechanics and only have 5-5s XD"
LmAoOoOoOoOo
No. You wanna get carried by dumb **** and poor decision making.
Oh wow, '14ers.
What is the point of even saying this? Nothing can be accomplished by this post except offending people.However, although really talented, the P:M team isn't as skilled as the team that made Smash.
That... oddly works...if 50/ 50 matchups for everybody then homogenized generally less interesting cast (not that cast isnt often uninteresting even in low tiers)
if diverse interesting cast then some bad matchups
therefore I think the best way to balance it is to do the opposite of what brawl minus did. Give everyone some bad matchups, force everyone to dual main. 41 viable diverse characters can only occur when none of the characters are viable 100 percent of the time
Depends on which gen. There are still Foxes of Pokemon in all of them though.That... oddly works...
**** is this the Pokemon approach put into Smash???
((This may destroy the spacies as we know it))
spacies are already on their way. I dont buy into the statement that they have no bad matchups in the slightest.That... oddly works...
**** is this the Pokemon approach put into Smash???
((This may destroy the spacies as we know it))
Yeah but I've also tried to calculate the MU's needed for each character for them to be all viable, the problem is that there's 312 total matchups in Melee (that's matchups of characters against other characters and mirror matches). Finding how each matchup will work on paper is actually more difficult in reality. Not only that but out of paper I know it will be painful for the P:M team to do that to 41 characters. It kinda makes scene why it's stuck to Melee tiers now...spacies are already on their way. I dont buy into the statement that they have no bad matchups in the slightest.
Just like think of it this way, just imagine for one second attempting to take the top eight of melee and giving them all 50 50 matchups. Just them. Puff has to be equal to falcon who has to be equal to peach who has to be equal to ice climbers who has to equal to shiek.
Impossible right?
THATS JUST EIGHT CHARACTERS
Are we talking about PM or Melee? I feel that Falco definitely has bad MUs right now in PM. Wolf and Fox are uncertain, but likely not many other than Fox beating Wolf. Their speed and conversions gives them enough axes to deal with just about any newly introduced medium IMO.spacies are already on their way. I dont buy into the statement that they have no bad matchups in the slightest.
but trying to 50 50 it is even harder. If you go the melee route youre going to get the melee result, a top 8 and everyone else is "less" viable. Melee balance would work better if fox lost to say, peach, but wrecked falcon. Falcon wrecked marth, but lost to ice climbers. Ect ect. Melee is a rock paper scissors game in the end, no matter how you dress it up. grabs attacks shield. it's in the mechanics. Why not put it in the balancing too? If you are worried about losing at character select just make all star mode a tournament standard.Yeah but I've also tried to calculate the MU's needed for each character for them to be all viable, the problem is that there's 312 total matchups in Melee (that's matchups of characters against other characters and mirror matches). Finding how each matchup will work on paper is actually more difficult in reality. Not only that but out of paper I know it will be painful for the P:M team to do that to 41 characters. It kinda makes scene why it's stuck to Melee tiers now...
But you'll still have characters that are high tier since you choose charicters to cycle out of stock. If you did that you would need to put in more stocks than "high viable" characters and allow it so you can't have the same charicter in your stock (no double foxes).EDIT: after considering honestly all star mode balances the game considerably. All star mode is the key to balancing pm.
THIS I really like this but i dont like the amount of armour they put on bowser...if 50/ 50 matchups for everybody then homogenized generally less interesting cast (not that cast isnt often uninteresting even in low tiers)
if diverse interesting cast then some bad matchups
therefore I think the best way to balance it is to do the opposite of what brawl minus did. Give everyone some bad matchups, force everyone to dual main. 41 viable diverse characters can only occur when none of the characters are viable 100 percent of the time
Exactly, that's why I'm saying that tiers are confusing. I'm probably never touching any tier thread ever again.
I hear people say this a lot, that Falco has bad match ups. He's personally the matchup struggle at the most. Tbh even in Melee I prefer using Sheik against Falco and Marth against Fox but in Project M I don't have any real answers. It's not something I would have any trouble getting on board with but I can't think of any negative match ups off the top of my head. Peach maybe? Roy? Idk. I'm sure there are soft counters to him. I'm just unaware.Are we talking about PM or Melee? I feel that Falco definitely has bad MUs right now in PM. Wolf and Fox are uncertain, but likely not many other than Fox beating Wolf. Their speed and conversions gives them enough axes to deal with just about any newly introduced medium IMO.
if you're talking to me, well I have, many many times, in this thread even. But it's beside my point so whateverif youre gonna say that fox has bad matchups, then list the matchups fox loses. until then dont claim things without backing them up, please. it gets us nowhere
Went ahead and digged it up. But still, you've yet to give good reasoning behind some of these (questionable) counters, other then "I think they beat him, so they do", so do elaborate.samus, i'd argue still mewtwo, bowser (yes, bowser), falcon ROB maybe ike sonic zelda lucario maybe diddy possibly peach and falco
already said I'm making a thread about it. No point derailing here.Went ahead and digged it up. But still, you've yet to give good reasoning behind some of these (questionable) counters, other then "I think they beat him, so they do", so do elaborate.
Also, how would all star mode balance PM? You just randomly concluded that from...what? You mention losing at character select and all of a sudden ASM is the solution to PM balance issues? Surely you have something more solid to base this on?
Bowser ROB Snake Falco Wario Marth GnW Sonic Lucario, maybe D3 (close to even from what I've seen but I don't play the character myself) ... those are just out of the characters I actually understand. in terms of burden of proof, I think the claim that "Fox doesn't lose any matchups" is a lot more extreme than "Fox has a good spread but loses some" anyway, lol. in all cases except Falco and Marth the matchup imbalance is mainly a function of punish disparity, ie the character in question has a much easier time of KO'ing Fox than the other way around, with the imbalance in neutral game being insufficiently slanted in Fox's favor to make up for it. I do think he probably goes even or wins in most of his matchups but not allif youre gonna say that fox has bad matchups, then list the matchups fox loses. until then dont claim things without backing them up, please. it gets us nowhere
PM is a game with many very drastically different characters. the design oddities and specifics of many of these characters lead to certain characters having ridiculously bad (or free) matchups against certain other characters and on certain stages, while remaining otherwise useful (or balanced).Also, how would all star mode balance PM? You just randomly concluded that from...what? You mention losing at character select and all of a sudden ASM is the solution to PM balance issues? Surely you have something more solid to base this on?
this but as I said I'd like to avoid discussing this in this thread since it's not exactly on topic. I'll work on a ruleset for counterpicks and such and have the thread up tonight.
Fair enough regarding ASM being tournament standard, but I didn't ask why you don't think Fox is that good, I asked why the mentioned Fox counters are Fox counters.already said I'm making a thread about it. No point derailing here.
also Edit: If you check the spot you quoted i spent the next like 3 pages explaining why i think fox isn't all that great. I really dont see the point of repeating the argument.
Well in regards to Link, his grab game is very important. Samus already has nair and upb out of shield, and regardless her dash grab has much less endlag than Link's iirc. For Samus, that is the grab you should be using. In the case of Lucas, his game doesn't really consist of grabbing from what I've seen (besides the rare combo with dthrow or the uthrow kill). Yeah, Ivy's tether/grab thing really sucks and Marth's range is kinda busted. But those two are outliers in the grand scheme of grabs. Snake's options out of shield aren't that great anyways (uboos isn't invincible anymore, and his grab is punishable). You make some good points, but while Link's *standing* grab is objectively better than Samus', he as a character is not, evidenced by his lower placement on various tier lists.Okay jumping back in here to center this discussion because holy ****, we got sidetracked.
Let's talk grab speed/reward balance. Currently it seems to be totally skewed in a way that poops on tether grabs, for no real reason. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Link, Tink, Ivysaur, Lucas, and Samus all have slow grabs (>10 frames). This means that they are more or less unable to shieldgrab even mediocre pressure, and are much more punishable on whiff. In return, they gain (supposedly) increased distance.
But let's talk about this. Lucas and Tink don't seem to have any better grab range than Marth or Snake, who both have fast normal grabs. So why do Snake and Marth "get" such a long grab range when they have none of the cons of a tether grab? Clearly it's not because of followups...Snake and Marth have chaingrabs, free sticky settups, and DI mixups/techchase setups. Tink gets especially shafted in this regard because he doesn't have a kill throw or a guaranteed followup throw...at least Lucas gets a kill throw but tbh his grab seems awful except to kill. Additionally, there seems to be a pretty high variance in the tether grabs of startup speed and endlag. Link has a relatively short startup, while Samus has the slowest grab in the game (frame 16), with Ivy not far behind at frame 14. Samus also has an insane amount of endlag. There doesn't seem to be any difference in reward between say, Link's grab and Samus'. If anything, Link has more robust followups and kill setups from grab than Samus does, in addition to an objectively better grab (less startup+endlag).
So let's break it down...do tether grabs have reliably longer grab ranges than the rest of the cast? NO
Do tether grabs come out faster than other grabs? NO, they come out a lot slower
Do tether grab characters have better followups from grabs? NO, there seems to be no association between grab speed and followups from grab
So the real question: why does Link have such a better grab compared to Ivysaur, Samus, or Lucas? Or really: why does Link "need" to have such a better grab to the characters I mentioned?
Also this is totally unrelated to grabs but the PMDT needs to look at Ivysaur's vinewhip sweetspot. Either it should be much stronger and as hard to hit as it is now, or they should make the sweetspot easier to hit. Right now the sourspot right near the sweetspot hits SO OFTEN. It's really frustrating and seems like its not meant to be that hard to aim. There's been some evidence that the vine goes into the z-dimension and makes it harder to hit and the hitboxes unintuitive.
Right so I'll follow up because I do agree that Samus has better projectiles/out of shield options than Link in general. It seems like Ivysaur just gets the worst of every world. Her CC isn't great, her projectiles aren't nearly as good as Samus or even Link, her grab is almost as slow as Samus', and she has no other quick out of shield option. So WHY does her grab need to be so bad? From a design perspective I don't really see why other than "because tether"Well in regards to Link, his grab game is very important. Samus already has nair and upb out of shield, and regardless her dash grab has much less endlag than Link's iirc. For Samus, that is the grab you should be using. In the case of Lucas, his game doesn't really consist of grabbing from what I've seen (besides the rare combo with dthrow or the uthrow kill). Yeah, Ivy's tether/grab thing really sucks and Marth's range is kinda busted. But those two are outliers in the grand scheme of grabs. Snake's options out of shield aren't that great anyways (uboos isn't invincible anymore, and his grab is punishable). You make some good points, but while Link's *standing* grab is objectively better than Samus', he as a character is not, evidenced by his lower placement on various tier lists.
It really sucks that Ivysaur gets shafted, but to my knowledge Marth has the longest grab range, followed by (with a noticable margin) Charizard, Dedede and Roy, then maybe Snake. I wish Snake had a better grab range lol, because it's pretty punishable compared to Marth's and it's attached to a character with a much worse neutral game (which is also why I have no problem with it, even if he did have a better grab than right now).Right so I'll follow up because I do agree that Samus has better projectiles/out of shield options than Link in general. It seems like Ivysaur just gets the worst of every world. Her CC isn't great, her projectiles aren't nearly as good as Samus or even Link, her grab is almost as slow as Samus', and she has no other quick out of shield option. So WHY does her grab need to be so bad? From a design perspective I don't really see why other than "because tether"
Also if you think Marth's grab range is busted I don't see why you don't have a problem with Snake's...AFAIK Snake's grab range is the biggest in the game.
++I didn't even discuss Olimar's weird quasi tether grab but it's one of the least intuitive things about the game at the moment. Someone who plays Olimar can spit the frame data facts at me but for some reason Olimar's grab seems like a weird combination of slow and amazing. It beats spot dodge but is slow and loses to most other defense options.
http://i.imgur.com/Mrzepjz.pngIt really sucks that Ivysaur gets shafted, but to my knowledge Marth has the longest grab range, followed by (with a noticable margin) Charizard, Dedede and Roy, then maybe Snake. I wish Snake had a better grab range lol, because it's pretty punishable compared to Marth's and it's attached to a character with a much worse neutral game (which is also why I have no problem with it, even if he did have a better grab than right now).
I've found that Snake's grab range is quite appropriate for his kit, especially considering the potency of his throws and what he can do out of them. If you're having issues with grabbing shorter characters or characters with sleeping animations closer to the ground remember that his dash grab's grabbox is lower but shorter range compared to his standing grab.It really sucks that Ivysaur gets shafted, but to my knowledge Marth has the longest grab range, followed by (with a noticable margin) Charizard, Dedede and Roy, then maybe Snake. I wish Snake had a better grab range lol, because it's pretty punishable compared to Marth's and it's attached to a character with a much worse neutral game (which is also why I have no problem with it, even if he did have a better grab than right now).
Thank you, good sir.http://i.imgur.com/Mrzepjz.png
credit goes to magus,
All grabs are punishable on whiff.Thank you, good sir.
AlsoStar ☆ : I have no problems with the height of his grab, since the fixed it so that he can grab just about any sleeping/crouched character now. If I do recall though if can be punished easily. Yet I haven't played as Snake since the beta quite a while back (and I can't remember the frame data, RIP).
No duh, but some more so than others... I'll take a look at the frame data when I finish some laps in the pool tonight.All grabs are punishable on whiff.