Tier List Speculation

[nimigoha]

I wonder what percentage of players who main a top Melee character in PM never played that character in Melee.

Like how many people who either mained someone else or started competitive with Brawl/PM have chosen Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Falcon, Peach, or Puff as their main, and aren't using past Melee knowledge or skill to run the show?

As stated many times before, the good Melee players might be skewing tier list results and character impressions but I'd really like to know to what degree the player base of Fox mains is made up of people who picked him up in PM.

 

[GP&B]

How do I keep putting myself in these pointless conversations?..

Side note: What are people trying to get across by saying this kind of remark? It makes you look really pretentious like you think you know any better than the users posting here.

 

[The_NZA]

Speaking of seeing what you want to see, which of these characters does not belong?

View attachment 73400

I have a hard time believing GnW - Marth is 2-8 or GnW - Fox is 3-7.

 

[Narelex]

I have a hard time believing GnW - Marth is 2-8 or GnW - Fox is 3-7.

I believe the metric on the chart is +1=55/45, +2=60/40 +3=anything above that.

 

[The_NZA]

I believe the metric on the chart is +1=55/45, +2=60/40 +3=anything above that.

Thanks for the clarification. In that case, I feel this chart is pretty inaccurate and heaping amounts of conservative from the standpoints of GnW players.

 

[KakuCP9]

Question. How important is G&W's ability to combo using his double jump after Up B in the air cause that honestly sounds kinda bonkers, especially with D-air's silly hit-box. Also how did d-tilt's ridiculous hit-box survive the 3.5/ 3.6 beta purge?

 

[mimgrim]

First assumption, fox gets chain grabbed by the entire cast. Newly relevant characters such as zss and diddy have no such miracle throw and as such have to continuously beat fox in neutral or make tons of hard reads in tech chase situations.

ZSS can chain-grab Fox with Uthrow, actually.

The ignorance on this thread gets to me everytime (not directed at anyone specific)

Funny.

The ignorance you project in your posts get to me every time.

 

[Soft Serve]

What are his bad MUs? Not saying he doesn't have any, I just wanna know

Marth, ike, roy, mk, shiek, tink, link, diddy, fox, wolf, snake, wario, at the very least.

 

[MrLul]

I have a hard time believing GnW - Marth is 2-8 or GnW - Fox is 3-7.

GnW Marth is like 60 or 55 in Marth's favor, GnW Fox is even

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

ZSS can chain-grab Fox with Uthrow, actually.



Funny.

The ignorance you project in your posts get to me every time.

Oh what percent does it begin to chaingrab¿ I was talking about that annoying 0 to 45% range where the struggle is real.

 

[mimgrim]

Oh what percent does it begin to chaingrab¿ I was talking about that annoying 0 to 45% range where the struggle is real.

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-6-zss-discussion.407539/page-3#post-20065306

She can actually start at 0% but the timing is super tight until about 30% or so where it becomes a little easier.

 

[Droß]

Is the GnW up throw -> up B + dair -> double jump nair combo that MrLz was showing during the grand finals of Paragon guaranteed? If so, he basically gets to kill the entire cast wayyy earlier than a lot of other characters can with a consistiency they can only dream of, and all it takes is of a single grab to land in the neutral.

 

[robosteven]

GnW Fox is even

uh-oh

 

[MrLul]

Is the GnW up throw -> up B + dair -> double jump nair combo that MrLz was showing during the grand finals of Paragon guaranteed? If so, he basically gets to kill the entire cast wayyy earlier than a lot of other characters can with a consistiency they can only dream of, and all it takes is of a single grab to land in the neutral.

das not guaranteed at all wtf
you should be asking if up b nair is guaranteed (which it aint)

 

[Tomaster]

Side note: What are people trying to get across by saying this kind of remark? It makes you look really pretentious like you think you know any better than the users posting here.

Edit: forget it... George Carlin was a smart man.

 

[GP&B]

You keep saying that everyone is focused on frame data when that's really not the case, especially not for Gdubs. Things like easy combos out of Up B (usually with KO moves, mind you) that affect almost the entire roster and ambiguous hitbox durations don't take looking at frame data to figure out and these are definitely two of the biggest issues brought up. The point about hitboxes is especially important. You shouldn't need to look at frame data with the exception of understanding IASA's better.

Also:

Im trying to get across that there's no point trying to express an opinion here cuz everyone is so thick headed and can't accept anyone being able to think differently than themselves.

The only reason that you're saying this is because people have vehemently (and from observation of your posts, justifiably) disagreed with your opinion. Having a different opinion doesn't magically excuse you from having to back it up. You need to give it substance. It's not the lack of acceptance, but the need for validity.

 

[DrinkingFood]

In terms of MU spreads no he's the only character with basically no bad MU's. But he isn't infallible he loses to other potent chars like, Lucario, ROB, Diddy, MK, GnW etc. If Fox only played perfectly he probably would be the best, but there's the human element that makes the game fun and dynamic that gets in the way of 20XX.

The gaps between tiers in this game are very small as opposed to melee with the only major differences being between the very top and very bottom.

Not to mention that we still can't fully agree on exactly where everyone should be placed in a tier list since the game is still technically not at its full release yet and receives updates.

fox doesn't lose to ROB anymore lol. ROB lost good punishments on fox in the form of his chain grab, and fox gained good punishments on ROB in the form of uthrow uair which was not possible before
and there's no reason to believe fox loses to GnW, short of knee jerk reaction to lucky losing an unfamiliar matchup, GnW can kinda fraud his way through a lot of characters neutral by suffocating them with hitboxes, which I feel is less potent with MU exp, but fox doesn't even need that when he can nair through bacon and bait out aerials so easily
honestly don't see MK beating fox either given he has no real punishments on fox at low percent
the others I have no opinion on, but still ask you provide some support before making those kind of claims

 

[MagnesD3]

So how do you make Dk, bowser, and Squirtle viable?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

If Meta Knight had Marth's up throw...

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

If Meta Knight had Marth's up throw...

I would be cool with it, Fox needs a counter and it's not like it would be super broken on everyone else, maybe Uthrow Nair would be too good if it was a thing though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think Meta Knight is fine the way he is. Once reaction tech chasing seeps its way into PM, Meta Knight (and other like Squirtle) will have reliable punishes at low percents, which is all Meta Knight is lacking imo in the MU (within reason of course). Up smash is good as long as they don't asdi down and tech the first 2 hits. Dtilt starts popping up in tech chases pretty early. Meta Knights up air is much better v Fox than Marth's (due to jumps and the nature of the move. Just a guess, but I think for up air they keep eating up airs on no di/di in and can be hit by dimensional cape stuff in upper percents. Also, run off jump Nair bodies side b and still lets Mk punish firefox. Recovery is kind of rough, as well as relying on edge guards/gimps for kills, but I wouldn't call this a bad mu by any means.

tl;dr I love where Mk is right now and don't think he needs any changes

*edit* I am may differ from some people's view on Squirtle, but I am optimistic about Squirtle's viability. He has some crazy stuff. Again, sounding like a broken record (it needs to be emphasized), reaction tech chasing makes Squirtle have the potential for top 15. Obviously that's a "character potential" tier list idea rather than a "current meta" tier list idea (which is the common, more relevant style). Squirtle having buuble, which gives Squirtle a potential answer to disjoint, cc, and shields in a pretty safe package is amazing; getting reliable punishes off it ties Squirtle together. Suddenly you can kill floaties out of neutral by "comboing" into an upsmash. You get a consistent combo starter in neutral. Also, bubble incentivizes learning reaction tech chasing (usually only useful on Fox and co, which Squirtle needs it) by consistently setting up tech chases on anybody. Bubble and Squirtle's ability to cross people up and what he gets off it are the 2 things people underate/dont know about Squirtle. That's a big enough of a bomb of an edit for now. If people wanna discuss Squirtle more, I would love that. *edut*

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I wonder what percentage of players who main a top Melee character in PM never played that character in Melee.

Like how many people who either mained someone else or started competitive with Brawl/PM have chosen Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Falcon, Peach, or Puff as their main, and aren't using past Melee knowledge or skill to run the show?

As stated many times before, the good Melee players might be skewing tier list results and character impressions but I'd really like to know to what degree the player base of Fox mains is made up of people who picked him up in PM.

If falcon counts, than fatality is a good example. Outside of him, not many.

 

[Deleted member]

for what its worth, i think marth beats gaw solidly, while sheik loses mildly. sheik could probably do ok with really flawless play but gaw gets much better margin out of punts than the opposite.

 

[MagnesD3]

I think Meta Knight is fine the way he is. Once reaction tech chasing seeps its way into PM, Meta Knight (and other like Squirtle) will have reliable punishes at low percents, which is all Meta Knight is lacking imo in the MU (within reason of course). Up smash is good as long as they don't asdi down and tech the first 2 hits. Dtilt starts popping up in tech chases pretty early. Meta Knights up air is much better v Fox than Marth's (due to jumps and the nature of the move. Just a guess, but I think for up air they keep eating up airs on no di/di in and can be hit by dimensional cape stuff in upper percents. Also, run off jump Nair bodies side b and still lets Mk punish firefox. Recovery is kind of rough, as well as relying on edge guards/gimps for kills, but I wouldn't call this a bad mu by any means.

tl;dr I love where Mk is right now and don't think he needs any changes

*edit* I am may differ from some people's view on Squirtle, but I am optimistic about Squirtle's viability. He has some crazy stuff. Again, sounding like a broken record (it needs to be emphasized), reaction tech chasing makes Squirtle have the potential for top 15. Obviously that's a "character potential" tier list idea rather than a "current meta" tier list idea (which is the common, more relevant style). Squirtle having buuble, which gives Squirtle a potential answer to disjoint, cc, and shields in a pretty safe package is amazing; getting reliable punishes off it ties Squirtle together. Suddenly you can kill floaties out of neutral by "comboing" into an upsmash. You get a consistent combo starter in neutral. Also, bubble incentivizes learning reaction tech chasing (usually only useful on Fox and co, which Squirtle needs it) by consistently setting up tech chases on anybody. Bubble and Squirtle's ability to cross people up and what he gets off it are the 2 things people underate/dont know about Squirtle. That's a big enough of a bomb of an edit for now. If people wanna discuss Squirtle more, I would love that. *edut*

But what about Dk and Boozer

 

[nimigoha]

DK is fine. He has great punishes and an increase to his ability in the neutral game (of which he already has a decent one despite what people say) would make him insane.

Bowser should get a Koopa Klaw Quickdraw to approach and I said that originally as a joke but now I'm not so sure.

 

[MagnesD3]

DK is fine. He has great punishes and an increase to his ability in the neutral game (of which he already has a decent one despite what people say) would make him insane.

Bowser should get a Koopa Klaw Quickdraw to approach and I said that originally as a joke but now I'm not so sure.

When I see someone do something with DK I'll believe you.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

What are his bad MUs? Not saying he doesn't have any, I just wanna know

Marth is hilariously bad for Game&Watch.

Searing_Sorrow said: ↑
MK with great m.u vs tink and link, since when?
Click to expand...
Since Metaknight is fast enough to pressure/corner them extremely quickly. I play the Tink:MK matchup and while Tink can keep him out, it requires a lot of reads on the opponent and dukes. In general, the Links struggle against characters who can pressure well (i.e. Fox, Falco, Wolf) as they lack super quick options up close and have poor options out of shield, and excel against characters who can't (i.e. Puff, Peach, Samus, D.K.). Once characters get by mid-range/Links' projectiles all they need to is dash dance bait a commitment and then punish.

Of course, this is putting it more than a tad simplistically, but I think it gets the general point across.

EDIT: It's not "great," but slightly favourable to reasonably favourable but not extremely difficult for the Tink player. -1 or max -2. I can't really speak to Link unfortunately as I don't play him but I've heard similar things. FYI Tink:Fox is -2 at best and -3 at worst. Super tough MU. Tink's worst IMO (just like Yink in Melee).

@ DrinkingFood I agree with you about Rob. And it's true. MK loses to Fox but only slightly, at least from what I've heard. MK can make it work, but it plays out a little like Sheik with the punishes (i.e. Fox can CC until a certain percent; therefore low percent game is tough), and sorta like Marth with the neutral; dtilt for pokes, dash dances into grabs... it's a little like Sheik too with dash attacks and dsmashes. It's an interesting matchup.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Can't figure out how to fix this post. Whoops

 

[-Maddox-]

How good do you nerds think Yoshi is?

 

[Kneato]

Throwing this out there, what if the characters we consider low tier were given tools or changes specifically meant to deal with fast-fallers/the top tier characters?

The small handful of top tier characters (mostly spacies) are considered so good because they lack any seriously bad matchups. I think most agree that this should be changed, but meaningfully nerfing the spacies would likely change their identity/gameplay and would drum up huge backlash as we've already seen.

However, the low tier characters (Ivy, DDD, Ganon) are already in need of change. Why not fix the spacie matchup problem by making a few of the low tiers directly counter them. We already see a mild version of that with DDD and you could argue DK on a flat stage. But these are hardly losing matchups for the spacies. So why not make them really losing?

I don't claim to be incredibly knowledgeable in terms of game balance and have no idea what kind of effects this would have in practice. Nor do I really know what you could give these characters to beat the spacies (all grabs chain grab, come out on frame 1, and lead into kill moves sounds good).

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

DK is fine. He has great punishes and an increase to his ability in the neutral game (of which he already has a decent one despite what people say) would make him insane.

Bowser should get a Koopa Klaw Quickdraw to approach and I said that originally as a joke but now I'm not so sure.

Ike's QuickDraw is not a good approach option, and I don't see why it would be for Bowser. However it would give Bowser a retrardedly good punishgame.

 

[NWRL]

What if Fox's shine was made crouch cancellable? I know that requires changing the angle from a purely horizontal one and would change how he combos, but it seems like that would tone down his neutral a bit if he was forced to respect an opponent in a crouching position when approaching.

EDIT: I'm not saying we should nerf Fox, just simply putting forth a hypothetical situation

I'm going to PSA this and play around with it.

JK LMAO, Fox's angle on shine is FFFFFE98 in hex I don't know waht the **** is going on

 

[The_NZA]

GnW Marth is like 60 or 55 in Marth's favor, GnW Fox is even

Question -- What would change for GnW if he could only double jump after upb if upb would be done from the ground? It would obviously weaken his recovery options, idk how it would work with upb OOS. Just curious what your feelings on a change like that would be.

 

[Spralwers]

Throwing this out there, what if the characters we consider low tier were given tools or changes specifically meant to deal with fast-fallers/the top tier characters?

This to a non-trivial extent was in 3.02, where pretty much everyone and their mother at the least had a uthrow/dthrow cg on spacies. The issue is that these tools bled into other MUs, polarizing the punish games and sometimes the neutrals too.

JK LMAO, Fox's angle on shine is FFFFFE98 in hex I don't know waht the **** is going on

Signed 32 bit integer. It's -360.

 

[robosteven]

If Meta Knight had Marth's up throw...

...I would never willingly fight an MK ever again.

It's very difficult for me to speculate tiers and viability for certain characters when the only character I have experience playing as gets totally ****ing trashed by like four or five matchups.

So like

I can pretty much solidly place one character on a tier list for this reason alone lol



It's also one of the main reasons I will probably never think of G&W as top tier. Optimal MU experience applied, top level Marth should pretty much never lose to G&W ever. Aside from Fox - Olimar, it comes to mind as one of the freest matchups in the game.

And even then, it's not unwinnable, but it's damn hard.

tl;dr I don't know how good MK is because my only real experience I have fighting him are with Olimar and that MU's hard as hell, and there's no way in hell G&W is top tier for reason of the Marth matchup alone. Every 3.6 tier list posted that has him above A should be disregarded entirely.

This to a non-trivial extent was in 3.02, where pretty much everyone and their mother at the least had a uthrow/dthrow cg on spacies. The issue is that these tools bled into other MUs, polarizing the punish games and sometimes the neutrals too.

Theorizing Olimar changes is really difficult for this very reason, primarily due to how as of right now Pikmin Throw more or less makes or breaks a matchup.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

DK is fine. He has great punishes and an increase to his ability in the neutral game (of which he already has a decent one despite what people say) would make him insane.

Bowser should get a Koopa Klaw Quickdraw to approach and I said that originally as a joke but now I'm not so sure.

What bowser needs is a projectile that eat projectiles (or a form of villagers pocket, maybe in the form of eating it and firing it out as a fire ball)

An approach option.

And a way to limit movement (falcon bowser Mu is stupid 80-20 just because falcon can do whatever he wants)

I think a projectile and a burst movement will fix all of these issues

 

[Droß]

Would Bowser changing out his fire neutral B for a medium speed, large fireball that moves straight through the air make him too suffocating in neutral? (Probably 2-3x Mario fireball size, starts from his mouth, range is maybe 1/3rd to 1/2 Mario's fireball range?)

 

[redbeanjelly]

Is there any consensus on how people feel Pit should be changed/buffed? The most common complaint I've heard is changing Upsmash/Uptilt/Nair so people don't fall out of them as easily, but does the character need anything else to hang with the top tiers?

 

[KiteAF]

Is there any consensus on how people feel Pit should be changed/buffed? The most common complaint I've heard is changing Upsmash/Uptilt/Nair so people don't fall out of them as easily, but does the character need anything else to hang with the top tiers?

Usmash change is prolly all he needs. I'd love another frame of lag trimmed from his dtilt and arrow, and maybe 2 from his ftilt. Maybe some more back throw knockback growth, cuz that throw won't put some people offstage even at like 150%. They could maybe add 2 more frames to down b's cape ability so Pit could get a little more use out of it, although it's pretty strong now. If they want it to get used as an actual reflector more, they could cut even more of its endlag.

Again- usmash is all he needs fixed to make a lot of his game more consistent. He has all the tools he needs, but there's no one really pushing the character.

 

[JOE!]

Bowser B: Fireball
Shoots a large (like, in between Full Aura Sphere and Aura Bomb) projectile that travels a little slower than he runs. Deals 15%~ and can clank/beat most other projectiles. On hit, it sends 90* upwards like when Mario burns his butt on fire.

Bowser Fsmash: Royal Punch

Similar timing to the current Fsmash

But travels about this far (A body length), and is progressively weaker the further it's out with the initial swing being more powerful.