Tier List Speculation

[TheoryofSmaug]

Can somebody give me an in-depth explanation on why people think Fox is the best in the game? I know he is top tier, but he gets chaingrabbed and combo'd extremely hard by the entire cast, a gimpable recovery (and worse in 3.6 due to the sakurai-combo risk gone), and shine not being able to gimp at 0% anymore. Shine is still a great tool, but waveshine can't combo as well and gimping isn't as effectI've, making the MUs like falcon and Ganon less in his favour. I can't see why people still see him as the very best.

This thread aims to look at the viability of characters in an imaginary world where everything is perfectly developed and players don't make mistakes.
Since Fox has the best neutral game, in this perfect world, other characters can't get the grab they need to insta kill Fox, while fox just lasers and stuffs approaches. This is why most people say that Fox is the best in the game, I could argue that other characters are as good, but that's more personal opinion.

 

[Narelex]

Can somebody give me an in-depth explanation on why people think Fox is the best in the game? I know he is top tier, but he gets chaingrabbed and combo'd extremely hard by the entire cast, a gimpable recovery (and worse in 3.6 due to the sakurai-combo risk gone), and shine not being able to gimp at 0% anymore. Shine is still a great tool, but waveshine can't combo as well and gimping isn't as effectI've, making the MUs like falcon and Ganon less in his favour. I can't see why people still see him as the very best.

Punish game isn't how you dictate MU's at the highest level. The ability to convert to your punish game comes out of the Neutral and Fox still has the best neutral. Quick movement with the ability to bait out attacks and then lay a beating on your opponent, Lasers to force your opponent to choose between damage being racked up or having to approach Fox. He also has the Safest shield Pressure in the game through the use of Nair/Drill->Shine. Waveshine's weren't touched so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Shine spikes are still just as effective against falcon/ganon you just might have to shine them an extra time which isn't that difficult considering his speed. Not being able to kill at 0% is a bit like complaining that your Hadoken in streetfighter doesn't 1 shot your opponent.

Ganon and Falcon won't magically have better MU's unless his neutral game is touched.

Overall his speed, the fact his basic gameplan works on the entire cast and the potency of his kill options. Are why most people consider him to be the best in the game. While we're not 100% sure if this is true he's a very likely candidate.

If you lose with Fox you only have yourself to blame. He doesn't have a single MU where he gets beat at the CSS. So it comes down to execution.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Can somebody give me an in-depth explanation on why people think Fox is the best in the game? I know he is top tier, but he gets chaingrabbed and combo'd extremely hard by the entire cast, a gimpable recovery (and worse in 3.6 due to the sakurai-combo risk gone), and shine not being able to gimp at 0% anymore. Shine is still a great tool, but waveshine can't combo as well and gimping isn't as effectI've, making the MUs like falcon and Ganon less in his favour. I can't see why people still see him as the very best.

First assumption, fox gets chain grabbed by the entire cast. Newly relevant characters such as MK and diddy have no such miracle throw and as such have to continuously beat fox in neutral or make tons of hard reads in tech chase situations. Even with such a throw, there are not many scenarios where it is relevant thanks to stage strikes and difficulty in getting the grab.

Statement 2 Fox gets comboed really hard. Made essentially irrelevant since his neutral is fairly dominating thanks to a combination of his speed and his kit, combine that with having reliable vertical finishers, and he doesn't even suffer from trouble killing.To further add to the disparity, characters like roy and bowser are actually a worse weight when compared to the entirety of the cast for being combo food. So in essence you are looking at an easily top 4 neutral with combo potential and reliable kill options. To compound that the idea of being a "glass" cannon is negated, he has access to great defensive options with a good tech roll, item game in certain matchups, his speed, and isn't punished the hardest when he messes up.

Statement 3 Falcon and ganon both still hate the fox matchup, and losing a sak-a-fry combo isn't going to destroy him any more than diddy losing those up b cheese combos from 3.02. Seriously shine nerf was overstated, he can still waveshine carry them easily across the stage, and shined at the ledge is still basically a death sentence on those two characters with edgeplay.

Not very in depth for my post, but sure you will get a ton of response hate if people take the post seriously. There is a reason fox has had so much success compared to the other top tier melee characters.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Punish game isn't how you dictate MU's at the highest level. The ability to convert to your punish game comes out of the Neutral and Fox still has the best neutral. Quick movement with the ability to bait out attacks and then lay a beating on your opponent, Lasers to force your opponent to choose between damage being racked up or having to approach Fox. He also has the Safest shield Pressure in the game through the use of Nair/Drill->Shine. Waveshine's weren't touched so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Shine spikes are still just as effective against falcon/ganon you just might have to shine them an extra time which isn't that difficult considering his speed. Not being able to kill at 0% is a bit like complaining that your Hadoken in streetfighter doesn't 1 shot your opponent.

Ganon and Falcon won't magically have better MU's unless his neutral game is touched.

Overall his speed, the fact his basic gameplan works on the entire cast and the potency of his kill options. Are why most people consider him to be the best in the game. While we're not 100% sure if this is true he's a very likely candidate.

If you lose with Fox you only have yourself to blame. He doesn't have a single MU where he gets beat at the CSS. So it comes down to execution.

I wasn't complaining or trying to prove a point, if you're wondering. I'm still learning PM so I was just wondering.

Wouldn't punish game make some of his MUs hell though? At a perfect level not really, but smash is never gonna reach that perfect level of players. A fox will miss at some point, and being one of the easiest characters to 0-to-death could definitely take a toll on Fox.

Also, I meant waveshine a from Melee to PM. You can't link shines nor combo effectively with shines on stage with PM. I wasn't complaining about his nerfed shine, I was stating it could make some MUs less bad, but you corrected me so nvm

 

[Jonyc128]

I'm feeling pretty much the exact opposite. I find zelda underwhelming but interesting/enjoyable to play against now, while snake is a pain in the *** to fight.

Zelda has multiple good anti air/anti approach options, in kicks/neutral b/ up smash/nair, but they are all punishable if they made the wrong call or it got baited. Dins fire hardly does anything, because if it's placed far away you can just clank it, if she does it while you are still close most characters can just punish her for it, but she doesn't directly benefit from it unless she's close and in a stagger position. I feel like zelda has fair tools to use and play against.

Snake on the other hand feels like garbage to play against unless you have a sword. He actively discorages you from trying to hit him by pulling a grenade, depending on port priority counterplay to him changes, upb has crazy hitboxes and priority and is a combo tool, sticky feels like **** to play against. Like, I don't find it fun trying to wade through mines and grenades and mortars, if any of them hitting I get Tranqd on the tech chase then grabbed, hit by guaranteed upthrow (regrab and uptilt as needed) sticky, then unless you're playing a floaty it's another tech chase. Upair is stronger than fox's. Up b can be shortened at any time while still putting out a hurt box above him, and he can hit himself and up b again or di in and tech the stage, grenades/mortars act as combo breakers, he can di into his own mines to end combos prematurely, it's just not fun to play against.

Zelda is an example of a probably underpowered zoning character that has normal interactions. Snake is a probably pretty ballanced zone/trap character that feels like garbage to play against.

I honestly hate fighting both characters, but I'm not sure which character I hate fighting more between the two of them

EDIT: Also about the Fox being combo'd easily: Unless you have a combo throw ala Marth, Mario or a quick vertical starter ala (Roy MK), you're going to have a hard time keeping Fox in the air given his terminal velocity

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

First assumption, fox gets chain grabbed by the entire cast. Newly relevant characters such as zss and diddy have no such miracle throw and as such have to continuously beat fox in neutral or make tons of hard reads in tech chase situations.

Statement 2 Fox gets comboed really hard. Made essentially irrelevant since his neutral is fairly dominating thanks to a combination of his speed and his kit, combine that with having reliable vertical finishers, and he doesn't even suffer from trouble killing.To further add to the disparity, characters like roy and bowser are actually a worse weight when compared to the entirety of the cast for being combo food. So in essence you are looking at an easily top 4 neutral with combo potential and reliable kill options. To compound that the idea of being a "glass" cannon is negated, he has access to great defensive options with a good tech roll, item game in certain matchups, his speed, and isn't punished the hardest when he messes up.

Statement 3 Falcon and ganon both still hate the fox matchup, and losing a sak-a-fry combo isn't going to destroy him any more than diddy losing those up b cheese combos from 3.02. Seriously shine nerf was overstated, he can still waveshine carry them easily across the stage, and shined at the ledge is still basically a death sentence on those two characters with edgeplay.

Not very in depth for my post, but sure you will get a ton of response hate if people take the post seriously. There is a reason fox has had so much success compared to the other top tier melee characters.

I get what you're saying and agree mostly, but saying Fox doesn't get combo'd because of his neutral is not really irrelevant I don't think. I mean, yeah it's hard to get that combo in, but there will always be a chance, even the gods of melee get combo'd with their better version of fox.

And is wave shining still in PM? I can still pull it off in melee but I can't in PM. Probably just a different timing. Thanks for the response, just wanted to hear good opinions

 

[Narelex]

I wasn't complaining or trying to prove a point, if you're wondering. I'm still learning PM so I was just wondering.

Wouldn't punish game make some of his MUs hell though? At a perfect level not really, but smash is never gonna reach that perfect level of players. A fox will miss at some point, and being one of the easiest characters to 0-to-death could definitely take a toll on Fox.

Also, I meant waveshine a from Melee to PM. You can't link shines nor combo effectively with shines on stage with PM. I wasn't complaining about his nerfed shine, I was stating it could make some MUs less bad, but you corrected me so nvm

Quite a few characters actually have a hard time getting a combo started from 0-40% on fox since not everyone is blessed with a marth-upthrow. The semi-fastfaller category as a whole has a harder time with getting comboed to death then fox does. I'd argue DK is probably the most prone to being 0-deathed in the game due to his size, lack of escape options (Shine) quick fallspeed and an even more linear recovery then Fox's.

Being able to quickly fall to the ground and tech away is a fairly solid defensive option as fox especially since you can shine on wakeup to avoid being punished. The timing will likely feel a tad different for waveshining in the brawl engine it just takes a bit of practice.

Overall I feel Fox's susceptibility to combo's is a bit overstated mostly due to the fact that in melee the characters that have an easier time setting up a a combo on spacies rose higher on the list due to their superior MU spread. Trying to setup a combo on a spacie in melee as a non high tier is extremely difficult.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Quite a few characters actually have a hard time getting a combo started from 0-40% on fox since not everyone is blessed with a marth-upthrow. The semi-fastfaller category as a whole has a harder time with getting comboed to death then fox does. I'd argue DK is probably the most prone to being 0-deathed in the game due to his size, lack of escape options (Shine) quick fallspeed and an even more linear recovery then Fox's.

Being able to quickly fall to the ground and tech away is a fairly solid defensive option as fox especially since you can shine on wakeup to avoid being punished. The timing will likely feel a tad different for waveshining in the brawl engine it just takes a bit of practice.

Overall I feel Fox's susceptibility to combo's is a bit overstated mostly due to the fact that in melee the characters that have an easier time setting up a a combo on spacies rose higher on the list due to their superior MU spread. Trying to setup a combo on a spacie in melee as a non high tier is extremely difficult.

Is it? Okay I didn't know, thanks for telling me. Are there any characters that are on Fox's level or is he way above everyone else?

 

[Narelex]

Is it? Okay I didn't know, thanks for telling me. Are there any characters that are on Fox's level or is he way above everyone else?

In terms of MU spreads no he's the only character with basically no bad MU's. But he isn't infallible he loses to other potent chars like, Lucario, ROB, Diddy, MK, GnW etc. If Fox only played perfectly he probably would be the best, but there's the human element that makes the game fun and dynamic that gets in the way of 20XX.

The gaps between tiers in this game are very small as opposed to melee with the only major differences being between the very top and very bottom.

Not to mention that we still can't fully agree on exactly where everyone should be placed in a tier list since the game is still technically not at its full release yet and receives updates.

 

[nimigoha]

DK's Up B is a combo escape move. Frame 2 and intangible in the air.

And funny that you brought him up because if DK grabs Fox then Fox dies. You just have to be really good at not getting grabbed and you'll beat DK.

 

[Narelex]

DK's Up B is a combo escape move. Frame 2 and intangible in the air.

And funny that you brought him up because if DK grabs Fox then Fox dies. You just have to be really good at not getting grabbed and you'll beat DK.

That loops back to punish games not being the end all be all. Up-b is fast but it doesn't cover below him very well which is where DK tends to be juggled by for example fox or falcon upairs.

 

[nimigoha]

Oh absolutely. I'd say it's a pretty disadvantageous matchup for DK even with his death tough.

And with the intangibility, you can time it so your opponent attacks you from below while you're intangible and the move extends into a hitbox without hitting you. Swords ignore this, but swords tend to ignore a lot of things.

 

[robosteven]

anyone else think G&W needs a major nerf? I might pick him up as a secondary just cuz he's so easy to play and so rewarding.

I felt the need to refer back to this post from early August while reading the post about Zelda as a reminder that "G&W is busted" is not a new thing.

...and also because the post itself is flat-out silly.


okay going back to the hole from which I crawled out of...

 

[Soft Serve]

How tf is dk up b a combo breaker, it's a low knock back multi hit move with no covering hitboxes below/above him, and it commits to purely horizontal movement for a good 2 seconds, and free fall afterwards

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I get what you're saying and agree mostly, but saying Fox doesn't get combo'd because of his neutral is not really irrelevant I don't think. I mean, yeah it's hard to get that combo in, but there will always be a chance, even the gods of melee get combo'd with their better version of fox.

And is wave shining still in PM? I can still pull it off in melee but I can't in PM. Probably just a different timing. Thanks for the response, just wanted to hear good opinions

The only things I know of that are different here:
1) Visual cues
2) Wavedashes take 1 extra frame to complete due to the physics delay

This is for waveshining btw

 

[FreeGamer]

Zelda is an unusual MU to learn, I will grant you. Once you get a feel for what she can/can't get away with, she kinda falls apart. It's what happens when one of your intended strengths is mysteriously absent from your design.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

Can we please stop this

 

[Tomaster]

Can we please stop this

People can have opinions bro.. and it's not unreasonable to think that at all.

Some people are just so attached to frame data that they cant realize it doesnt tell the whole story.

*People think G&W is good based on their experience*
Other people: "nah bruh, frame data shows he's not that good, u just dont know how to deal with him"
*14 year old wins the biggest pm event ever with G&W*
People: "But.. but... but... frame data!"

 

[GP&B]

You are greatly misrepresenting the argument and defending your stance by saying "It's muh opinion."

No ****, dude. That's why you have to substantiate it.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

People can have opinions bro.. and it's not unreasonable to think that at all.

Some people are just so attached to frame data that they cant realize it doesnt tell the whole story.

*people think G&W is good based on their experience*
Other people: "nah bruh, frame data shows he's not that good, u just dont know how to deal with him"
*14 year old wins the biggest pm event ever with G&W*
People: "But.. but... but... frame data!"

Mr. Lz is an incredibly good player, stop invalidating his skill just because he's young.

 

[robosteven]

just because he's dumb as hell, unintuitive to fight against, and won the biggest PM tourney to date doesn't mean he's S tier

 

[Tomaster]

Mr. Lz is an incredibly good player, stop invalidating his skill just because he's young.

That wasnt my point, i know he's good.

just because he's dumb as hell, unintuitive to fight against, and won the biggest PM tourney to date doesn't mean he's S tier

Some people think he is (including myself), just cuz it's not the generally accepted opinion doesnt mean it isnt true. At the end of the day it's up for pmdt to decide..

You are greatly misrepresenting the argument and defending your stance by saying "It's muh opinion."

No ****, dude. That's why you have to substantiate it.

Are you kidding me? Every single reason why g&w is seen as op was listed multiple times on this thread and in so many other places.. u people just refuse to see that cuz he's not fox. People nowadays only see what they wanna see.

The ignorance on this thread gets to me every time (not directed at anyone specific)

 

[Ripple]

People don't accept G&w as S tier because he actually has multiple bad MUs. It's like putting sheik at the top

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

People don't accept G&w as S tier because he actually has multiple bad MUs. It's like putting sheik at the top

What are his bad MUs? Not saying he doesn't have any, I just wanna know

 

[smokebomb12]

What tier would be placed in? He's not terrible and has a good projectile game. Plus he has a Down-throw to up air (or hoo-ha combo). I main the dude so I know his strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Jonyc128]

What are his bad MUs? Not saying he doesn't have any, I just wanna know

I know Link is one of them, according to Lz

 

[Narelex]

What tier would be placed in? He's not terrible and has a good projectile game. Plus he has a Down-throw to up air (or hoo-ha combo). I main the dude so I know his strengths and weaknesses.

Just gonna double check due to the terminology and icon you used. You do know this is the PM tier list discussion yes?

 

[smokebomb12]

.....*Jumps out the window*

 

[KakuCP9]

I was wondering if it is possible to change the title of the thread to "PM character design/viability discussion" because while there are many tier lists posted by people (most of them I avoid), I don't feel like the title represents what really goes on in here.

 

[iPunchKidsz]

GnW and Lucario are both incredibly dumb, but I wouldn't say that the characters are carrying them. The players behind these characters know their characters in and out are using all their options to do well. They're smart players, and you can't attribute all their wins to just character alone

LOL

 

[Kneato]

That wasnt my point, i know he's good.



Some people think he is (including myself), just cuz it's not the generally accepted opinion doesnt mean it isnt true. At the end of the day it's up for pmdt to decide..



Are you kidding me? Every single reason why g&w is seen as op was listed multiple times on this thread and in so many other places.. u people just refuse to see that cuz he's not fox. People nowadays only see what they wanna see.

The ignorance on this thread gets to me everytime (not directed at anyone specific)

Speaking of seeing what you want to see, which of these characters does not belong?

 

[FreeGamer]

I was wondering if it is possible to change the title of the thread to "PM character design/viability discussion" because while there are many tier lists posted by people (most of them I avoid), I don't feel like the title represents what really goes on in here.

You know, I kinda thought someone would make that thread by now. Maybe with a different character up for discussion each week or something.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL

david you ****ing troll lmao

What are his bad MUs? Not saying he doesn't have any, I just wanna know

anything with a sword for starters

 

[Tomaster]

Speaking of seeing what you want to see, which of these characters does not belong?

View attachment 73400

Is that the community mu chart? That's hardly a reference point, unless you think almost all of bowser's matchups are -3.

How do I keep putting myself in these pointless conversations?..
Let pmdt do what they want with G&W.. I don't really care that much.

 

[nimigoha]

Bowser needs a better approach option to be good. Quickdraw Koopa Klaw when.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Speaking of seeing what you want to see, which of these characters does not belong?

View attachment 73400

That chart gets the point across, but a few of those numbers are for lack of a better word, just flat out wrong.
MK vs dk (most characters vs dk) isn't nearly that bad, and those numbers are usually generated by poor theory crafting, or mains begging for their character to receive quality of life buffs.

Marth diddy is not a great matchup for marth on most stages, even at best.

MK with great m.u vs tink and link, since when?

And g&w vs roy is so much better of a matchup than marth vs g&w.

Still does the job of showing why people don't consider g&w o.p though.

 

[CORY]

Still getting aneurisms from misuse of s tier ;x

 

[Kneato]

That chart gets the point across, but a few of those numbers are for lack of a better word, just flat out wrong.
MK vs dk (most characters vs dk) isn't nearly that bad, and those numbers are usually generated by poor theory crafting, or mains begging for their character to receive quality of life buffs.

Marth diddy is not a great matchup for marth on most stages, even at best.

And g&w vs roy is so much better of a matchup than marth vs g&w.

Still does the job of showing why people don't consider g&w o.p though.

You should share your opinions on the MU discussion threads for each character. That's where most of the data came from.

Is that the community mu chart? That's hardly a reference point, unless you think almost all of bowser's matchups are -3.

How do I keep putting myself in these pointless conversations?..
Let pmdt do what they want with G&W.. I don't really care that much.

The community chart is much more accurate than any one person's opinion on all characters, especially those he/she doesn't play.

And yea, it's more reflective of 3.5 right now but its being constantly updated. Most notably MK matchups are being adjusted afaik.

Either way, even minus 100% accuracy, the data can at least strongly suggest that Fox and G&W are not on the same tier.

 

[Narelex]

It took 1000's of man hours to get the MU charts in melee to their current state so its unsurprising that we'll have incorrect data at times. Until we reach the "full" release of PM then I doubt any MU list will be correct. It's why its best to figure out what MU's "You" personally have issues with and improve your own play based on that fact.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[no, stop it vaporeon]