Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

Ah, ok. Thanks! That's an important distinction.

Also, as a certified scrub, I'd like you guys to tear apart the tier list for 3.6 that I put together in like 10 minutes. I tried to list characters based on how they would theoretically perform against the rest of the cast assumed they were played with perfect execution (no tech flubs, etc), given current tech knowledge (no undiscovered techs). I didn't put the effort to sort every character, so it's really just grouped based on what row they're in. DISCLAIMER: My game knowledge is severly lacking overall, so it would be nice to get schooled on a lot of these characters, particularly on the ones in the D, E, and F tiers.

In general, I thought that characters that have moves with less endlag and earlier hitboxes on moves would perform better than those that didn't, mostly due to a theoretically more flexible neutral as well as combos and follow-ups. Those with decent recovery mix-ups were listed higher on average than those that could cover large distances with one or two types of main recovery options (Jiggly, Peach, etc). To some extent, kill power and viability of getting kills was taken into account, but I'm lacking in knowledge in that department as well. Finally, ground mobility was important as well (wavedash distance, dash dance length, running speed).

So yeah, feel free to tear me apart. View attachment 73316

olimar is wayyyy too low

 

[Boiko]

olimar is wayyyy too low

Time to start backing it up with results. No notable Olimars, no representation, no results, low tier placing. Theory crafting only goes so far.

 

[Frost | Odds]

So yeah, feel free to tear me apart. View attachment 73316

In order to launch Project M, you'll need to insert a 2gb SD card containing PM's files prior to your wii booting, and then, from Brawl's menus, select "stage builder".

... I kid, but it just looks like you're maybe not quite at a level of play where trying to build a tier list is a productive use of your time. This honestly looks more like a Brawl tier list than one for PM, so I'm not sure how you plan for it to really spark useful discussion.

 

[Mc.Rad]

In order to launch Project M, you'll need to insert a 2gb SD card containing PM's files prior to your wii booting, and then, from Brawl's menus, select "stage builder".

... I kid, but it just looks like you're maybe not quite at a level of play where trying to build a tier list is a productive use of your time. This honestly looks more like a Brawl tier list than one for PM, so I'm not sure how you plan for it to really spark useful discussion.

Yeah, (even though Ice Climbers are F-Tier here lol) I even think it's kinda lacking, even for I who dosn't have a lot of experience with the game

 

[steelguttey]

Time to start backing it up with results. No notable Olimars, no representation, no results, low tier placing. Theory crafting only goes so far.

3.0 link is just an exception to this rule then? what about 3.0 mk or most "op" 3.0 characters. we knew they were broken tho. im not saying olimar is as good as those characters but this patch has been out for what, a month? less?

no johns tho i gotta start winning i guess

EDIT: after thinking about it this logic also doesnt go anywhere with characters like falco, kirby, peach (pm at evo sort of counts but that tournament had wayyy to many bye's, still had 2 top 8 peaches tho so thats something), samus, zss, squirtle, wolf (this one depends on how much babaganoush plays wolf but) and sonic. thats only the characters i can name off the top of my head but lets be honest. even with 3 pm majors in the past 3 months i still dont think we have enough data to use tournament results as the only base on a tier list.

EDIT2: on the other hand, you have cases like hero of time with link, you and stereo with ness, or poob with dk where they place very well with characters that arent on the higher spectrum of a tier list

 

[mimgrim]

This honestly looks more like a Brawl tier list than one for PM, so I'm not sure how you plan for it to really spark useful discussion.

lol no.

If it was a Brawl tier lists Pit, GnW, Sonic, and Lucas would all be much much lower. Olimar would be S tier (at either 3rd or 4th place) as would Diddy (at 3rd or 4th place like Oli), ICs would be at 2nd best, and Snake, Marth, and Falco would all be around there at the top as well.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/

Learn what a Brawl tier list would look like beyond just MK being placed as best.

 

[Droß]

In order to launch Project M, you'll need to insert a 2gb SD card containing PM's files prior to your wii booting, and then, from Brawl's menus, select "stage builder".

... I kid, but it just looks like you're maybe not quite at a level of play where trying to build a tier list is a productive use of your time. This honestly looks more like a Brawl tier list than one for PM, so I'm not sure how you plan for it to really spark useful discussion.

I definitely agree with you; I'm only just beginning to grind tech and learn follow-ups and grab percentages and matchups on my one character(TM). This stuff takes a while, and because I live in the state with no scene, I don't have an abundance of practice partners outside of weekly tournaments, so I get knowledge where I can. I took a measly 10-15 minutes on this one because it sounded fun, and I wanted people to react with a "Huh? This character is way too high/low." to give hints.

Basically I wanted to see which characters I lacked the most knowledge about, and which I had the best on. It can be hard to remember something you've never thought of before. @_@

 

[Life]

I love playing Pit and I think he's super underrated, but S-tier? Really? On what grounds?

 

[Boiko]

3.0 link is just an exception to this rule then? what about 3.0 mk or most "op" 3.0 characters. we knew they were broken tho. im not saying olimar is as good as those characters but this patch has been out for what, a month? less?

no johns tho i gotta start winning i guess

EDIT: after thinking about it this logic also doesnt go anywhere with characters like falco, kirby, peach (pm at evo sort of counts but that tournament had wayyy to many bye's, still had 2 top 8 peaches tho so thats something), samus, zss, squirtle, wolf (this one depends on how much babaganoush plays wolf but) and sonic. thats only the characters i can name off the top of my head but lets be honest. even with 3 pm majors in the past 3 months i still dont think we have enough data to use tournament results as the only base on a tier list.

EDIT2: on the other hand, you have cases like hero of time with link, you and stereo with ness, or poob with dk where they place very well with characters that arent on the higher spectrum of a tier list

It's not just about placing, it's about exposure. We see high level Peach play with Bladewise, Llod, and Malachi often. We're able to identify her weaknesses and see where she struggles. All of the characters that you mentioned have high level players, Samus: Plup, Falco:Westballz, ZSS:Jason Waterfalls, Wolf:Chillin, besides Sonic, whose tier list placement is widely debated in the first place, and Kirby, and Squirtle, who are played mostly by Tetraflora, Yador, dirtboy, cloudburst, and daftatt, who are all great players, but not quite in the same league as the others.

Don't forget that a Link player in 3.02 beat Frozen, Emukiller, GuruKid, and John Numbers in a single tournament. GuruKid and K9 were both killing it with MK in 3.02. Lucas had Neon and Pink Fresh, Sonic had Wizzy, Mewtwo had Emukiller, Frozen, and M2K, Mario had Gallo and M2K. All top tier characters in 3.02 had representation.

Going beyond that, match up knowledge is still playing an important role in the development of the meta. So there are going to be situations where a lesser player succeeds due to the better player not understanding character traits.

There is no Olimar exposure so it's impossible to say just how good he is without being purely speculative. If you want to reinforce that he's as strong of a character that you're saying he is, you can't just talk about it, you have to show people.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I love playing Pit and I think he's super underrated, but S-tier? Really? On what grounds?

Pit feels like an enigma since there's so few of you. I only remember Gallo and Sharkz off hand atm. Where does he really place in this patch? I wanna say upper mid tier, but I dunno.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

About Sonic as well, his matchups against many top tiers are at least somewhat fleshed out and more well-known than Olimar. This may sound really ignorant, but I'm not sure many people know much of what Olimar can do while people do know that Sonic has a great dash dance, recovery, edgeguards, and chain throws against Spacies.

 

[Mc.Rad]

About Sonic as well, his matchups against many top tiers are at least somewhat fleshed out and more well-known than Olimar. This may sound really ignorant, but I'm not sure many people know much of what Olimar can do while people do know that Sonic has a great dash dance, recovery, edgeguards, and chain throws against Spacies.

Sonic feeds on the tears of space furries

 

[Droß]

I love playing Pit and I think he's super underrated, but S-tier? Really? On what grounds?

Via the way I judged it:

• Recovery: three jumps, glide, Up B that moves fairly quickly and sweetspots well means he has at least decent mix-up potential.
• Grabs and combos: From what I remember in 3.02, he had some stellar follow-up ability off of down throw, up throw, and back throw had decent killing power; I'm not sure if he was nerfed in any of these areas, but a Pit with perfect technical play seems like he specializes in the type of 0 to death combos that deny a lot of interaction within the game, and that makes him extremely dangerous to everyone in the cast that is vulnerable to that, which seemed like a large percentage of them back in 3.02
  
• Neutral: Decent dash dance, good jump-cancelled grab, ok wavedash, useable DACUS, projectile to force approaches / steal jumps (effectively increasing killing power). Combined with Cactuar dashing and his decent CC dtilt (which sets up into aerials pretty well if it's the same as 3.02), he has a lot of tools that are at least comparatively adequate to get to his combo strings, tech chases, and DI traps going.

I mean, I am a scrub, so a lot of this is either outdated, misjudged, or simply wrong. But that's why I made the list in the first place, to find out what I'm wrong about. I think a perfectly played Pit is a top tier character that maximizes the flowchart play style along the lines of M2K's Marth vs spacies on FD.

 

[The Baron]

It's not just about placing, it's about exposure. We see high level Peach play with Bladewise, Llod, and Malachi often. We're able to identify her weaknesses and see where she struggles. All of the characters that you mentioned have high level players, Samus: Plup, Falco:Westballz, ZSS:Jason Waterfalls, Wolf:Chillin, besides Sonic, whose tier list placement is widely debated in the first place, and Kirby, and Squirtle, who are played mostly by Tetraflora, Yador, dirtboy, cloudburst, and daftatt, who are all great players, but not quite in the same league as the others.

Don't forget that a Link player in 3.02 beat Frozen, Emukiller, GuruKid, and John Numbers in a single tournament. GuruKid and K9 were both killing it with MK in 3.02. Lucas had Neon and Pink Fresh, Sonic had Wizzy, Mewtwo had Emukiller, Frozen, and M2K, Mario had Gallo and M2K. All top tier characters in 3.02 had representation.

Going beyond that, match up knowledge is still playing an important role in the development of the meta. So there are going to be situations where a lesser player succeeds due to the better player not understanding character traits.

There is no Olimar exposure so it's impossible to say just how good he is without being purely speculative. If you want to reinforce that he's as strong of a character that you're saying he is, you can't just talk about it, you have to show people.

One day people will show our boys Neon, Oksas, and even Lucky some love as great wolf players. But that day is obvously not today and nor will it be sometime soon which shows just how many wolf players, how much exposure and what results Wolf actually gets.

*shrug*

 

[Boiko]

One day people will show our boys Neon, Oksas, and even Lucky some love as great wolf players. But that day is obvously not today and nor will it be sometime soon which shows just how many wolf players, how much exposure and what results Wolf actually gets.

*shrug*

Oops, forgot Neon. Don't really know Oksas. Lucky has to bust out Fox at top level and he knows it.

 

[eideeiit]

Via the way I judged it:

• Recovery: three jumps, glide, Up B that moves fairly quickly and sweetspots well means he has at least decent mix-up potential.
• Grabs and combos: From what I remember in 3.02, he had some stellar follow-up ability off of down throw, up throw, and back throw had decent killing power; I'm not sure if he was nerfed in any of these areas, but a Pit with perfect technical play seems like he specializes in the type of 0 to death combos that deny a lot of interaction within the game, and that makes him extremely dangerous to everyone in the cast that is vulnerable to that, which seemed like a large percentage of them back in 3.02
  
• Neutral: Decent dash dance, good jump-cancelled grab, ok wavedash, useable DACUS, projectile to force approaches / steal jumps (effectively increasing killing power). Combined with Cactuar dashing and his decent CC dtilt (which sets up into aerials pretty well if it's the same as 3.02), he has a lot of tools that are at least comparatively adequate to get to his combo strings, tech chases, and DI traps going.

I mean, I am a scrub, so a lot of this is either outdated, misjudged, or simply wrong. But that's why I made the list in the first place, to find out what I'm wrong about. I think a perfectly played Pit is a top tier character that maximizes the flowchart play style along the lines of M2K's Marth vs spacies on FD.

Pit does have a great recovery, but not sweetspots. Just no. His up-b's ledge grab box is really short vertically.

As for the rest:

3.02 Pit:

3.5 onwards Pit:

Naturally exaggerated, but I hope the point comes across.

 

[Mc.Rad]

As for the rest:

3.02 Pit:

3.5 onwards Pit:

Why didn't you post a pic for the 3.02 Pit?

Im confused

 

[robosteven]

I think Pit suffers from the a similar issue that Olimar suffers from.

Since Armada doesn't really play Pit or PM anymore and Zero went on to play the significantly worse more profitable Smash, you don't really see much top-level representation. However, I feel like he's definitely got most if not all of the tools necessary to do very well.

 

[eideeiit]

Yeah me too. Just that it's gonna be hard and that his 3.02 success shouldn't even be mentioned.

 

[Tomaster]

Time to start backing it up with results. No notable Olimars, no representation, no results, low tier placing. Theory crafting only goes so far.

That's really hypocritical since you keep saying ness is terrible, yet he has tons of representation and results. He's only bad in theory... soo?

 

[Boiko]

That's really hypocritical since you keep saying ness is terrible, yet he has tons of representation and results. He's only bad in theory... soo?

I never said that Ness was terrible. In fact, I said that I think Ness is weak relative to the cast, but not necessarily bad. If you read my second post, I stated that it's not always about placings, but rather exposure. That way players can identify the strengths or weaknesses of a character.

 

[Tomaster]

I never said that Ness was terrible. In fact, I said that I think Ness is weak relative to the cast, but not necessarily bad. If you read my second post, I stated that it's not always about placings, but rather exposure. That way players can identify the strengths or weaknesses of a character.

Personal request: when u balance the cast next patch, please buff the weak rather than nerfing the strong. I think it would make a more fun game. Ik that's unrelated but when u said ness is weak relative to the cast that came to mind.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Via the way I judged it:

• Recovery: three jumps, glide, Up B that moves fairly quickly and sweetspots well means he has at least decent mix-up potential.
• Grabs and combos: From what I remember in 3.02, he had some stellar follow-up ability off of down throw, up throw, and back throw had decent killing power; I'm not sure if he was nerfed in any of these areas, but a Pit with perfect technical play seems like he specializes in the type of 0 to death combos that deny a lot of interaction within the game, and that makes him extremely dangerous to everyone in the cast that is vulnerable to that, which seemed like a large percentage of them back in 3.02
  
• Neutral: Decent dash dance, good jump-cancelled grab, ok wavedash, useable DACUS, projectile to force approaches / steal jumps (effectively increasing killing power). Combined with Cactuar dashing and his decent CC dtilt (which sets up into aerials pretty well if it's the same as 3.02), he has a lot of tools that are at least comparatively adequate to get to his combo strings, tech chases, and DI traps going.

I mean, I am a scrub, so a lot of this is either outdated, misjudged, or simply wrong. But that's why I made the list in the first place, to find out what I'm wrong about. I think a perfectly played Pit is a top tier character that maximizes the flowchart play style along the lines of M2K's Marth vs spacies on FD.

Most of these things were nerfed on 3.5 and pit is maybe B tier now. In my opinion, he can still carry me off stage kinda, but i main bowser and alot of weird stuff works on bowser that shouldnt.

 

[Life]

How do you not know that Pit got overnerfed after 3.02? Back then everyone claimed he was ridiculous, but the only players to really showcase him were players that could have won tournaments on any of like ten different characters, not that that stopped people from crying for nerfs. There's a reason basically everyone quit him in 3.5 LOL. I predicted he'd get overnerfed because everyone thought he was better than he actually was, and lo, it came to pass.

Yeah I'm still bitter, sue me.

Anyway, I still think he abuses positional advantage better than basically anyone else in the cast, bar maybe the Fire Emblem crew, so most of his trouble matchups are characters that have a better neutral. In particular, since he can't dthrow combo fastfallers unless they miss the DI and tech poorly (you can mixup into uthrow on most of them, which helps matters but isn't a cure-all), this makes spacies and Falcon a pain to deal with despite Pit's superior edgeguards on those characters.

Pit excels against low aerial mobility floaties like Samus and Luigi IMO (although Samus is a weird case in that Pit's throw combos don't really do much to her, but Pit can really mess with her ability to land safely) along with characters who rely heavily on edgeguarding such as Jigglypuff. Actually, I'd bet floaties in general probably have a rough time against Pit. He's got an amazing kit for juggling, the lack of vertical mobility makes them easier to hit with arrows, and they have to avoid several vertical KO moves (the admittedly finicky usmash and upB, but also uair, plus dtilt confirms into aerials as does dthrow sometimes).

None of his matchups seem particularly extreme in either direction, though. Everybody has answers to Pit things, and Pit has answers to everyone else's things. So if your criterion for high tier is "no awful matchups" Pit belongs up there. If your criterion for high tier is "lots of good matchups against popular characters and no awful matchups" then it's sketchy to say the least.

 

[Droß]

How do you not know that Pit got overnerfed after 3.02? Back then everyone claimed he was ridiculous, but the only players to really showcase him were players that could have won tournaments on any of like ten different characters, not that that stopped people from crying for nerfs. There's a reason basically everyone quit him in 3.5 LOL. I predicted he'd get overnerfed because everyone thought he was better than he actually was, and lo, it came to pass.

Yeah I'm still bitter, sue me.

Anyway, I still think he abuses positional advantage better than basically anyone else in the cast, bar maybe the Fire Emblem crew, so most of his trouble matchups are characters that have a better neutral. In particular, since he can't dthrow combo fastfallers unless they miss the DI and tech poorly (you can mixup into uthrow on most of them, which helps matters but isn't a cure-all), this makes spacies and Falcon a pain to deal with despite Pit's superior edgeguards on those characters.

Pit excels against low aerial mobility floaties like Samus and Luigi IMO (although Samus is a weird case in that Pit's throw combos don't really do much to her, but Pit can really mess with her ability to land safely) along with characters who rely heavily on edgeguarding such as Jigglypuff. Actually, I'd bet floaties in general probably have a rough time against Pit. He's got an amazing kit for juggling, the lack of vertical mobility makes them easier to hit with arrows, and they have to avoid several vertical KO moves (the admittedly finicky usmash and upB, but also uair, plus dtilt confirms into aerials as does dthrow sometimes).

None of his matchups seem particularly extreme in either direction, though. Everybody has answers to Pit things, and Pit has answers to everyone else's things. So if your criterion for high tier is "no awful matchups" Pit belongs up there. If your criterion for high tier is "lots of good matchups against popular characters and no awful matchups" then it's sketchy to say the least.

I stopped following the scene / didn't have a Wii and PM between the end of 3.02 and when 3.6b came out, so I wasn't quite paying attention to Pit's changes, or anybody's for that matter; I'm really diving into the game with 3.6, so the history of patches before 3.02 isn't super important to me.

When I come home from the Melee tournament I'm going to tonight, I'll start practicing as Pit and see how I feel about him; I'll also read patch notes for 3.5 and 3.6 for him.

So if 3.5/3.6 Pit is really that bad compared to 3.02, then perhaps he'd fit better in the A tier. Unless they ruined his ability to combo/kill a lot of the cast or destroyed his ability to win the neutral game, he should still be quite high up.

Personal request: when u balance the cast next patch, please buff the weak rather than nerfing the strong. I think it would make a more fun game. Ik that's unrelated but when u said ness is weak relative to the cast that came to mind.

It's generally easier from a game design and balance standpoint to create characters that are too strong, and then tone down any mechanical aspects of their kits that are overpowering / imbalanced in comparison to the rest of the cast.

 

[NWRL]

Zelda is one of the most aggravating and frustrating characters to play against.

Who thought this design was okay?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Zelda was suppose to be the classic fighting game zoner, but that niche is virtually impossible to make and make well in smash. I could write an essay on why, but for now I'll settle with two of the main reasons,
Zoners are supposed to keep people out, and anyone who can do this really pisses off smashers and thus they tend to get nerfed.
Also if you give a characters the tools to keep out fox and then pit them against Bowser... *shudders*

 

[Tomaster]

Zelda is one of the most aggravating and frustrating characters to play against.

Who thought this design was okay?

Same with g&w

 

[AceGamer]

Zelda is one of the most aggravating and frustrating characters to play against.

Who thought this design was okay?

Sakurai lol but TheoryofSmaug is right, zoners don't fit too well in Smash although zoners in traditional fighters never have insanely damaging attacks in the 1st place. That I know of anyway

 

[NWRL]

Zelda was suppose to be the classic fighting game zoner, but that niche is virtually impossible to make and make well in smash. I could write an essay on why, but for now I'll settle with two of the main reasons,
Zoners are supposed to keep people out, and anyone who can do this really pisses off smashers and thus they tend to get nerfed.
Also if you give a characters the tools to keep out fox and then pit them against Bowser... *shudders*

I'm fine with zoners in Smash but I think there's better ways to implement them than Zelda. There hasn't been an incarnation of Zelda in PM that was actually fun to fight against.

Snake I think fits a zoner niche well while still being enjoyable to play against. Tranqs are a little wacky when you combine them with C4 though.

 

[Vitriform]

I'm fine with zoners in Smash but I think there's better ways to implement them than Zelda. There hasn't been an incarnation of Zelda in PM that was actually fun to fight against.

Snake I think fits a zoner niche well while still being enjoyable to play against. Tranqs are a little wacky when you combine them with C4 though.

What aspects of Zelda do you find unfun or aggravating?

 

[NWRL]

What aspects of Zelda do you find unfun or aggravating?

Honestly just the way that Nayru's Love and Din's fire work currently.

She is able to place a projectile wherever she wants from a safe distance, and it will come back to her once activated.

Nayru's love is a good "get off of me" move, but it seems a little too safe if that's what it's intended to do. In most other fighting games, anything that has intangibility or invincibility at the start tends to have quite a bit of end lag and be punishable, but maybe it's really punishable and I'm just bad.

I don't think Zelda is really overpowered, she's just not a fun character to fight.

 

[Yung Matt]

What aspects of Zelda do you find unfun or aggravating?

Many things in her kit create an annoying character to fight against. Primarily, dins fire is a tool that allows Zelda to force approaches and always force approaches against her opponent. Her teleport's hitbox and lack of lag is incredibly annoying and frustrating to deal with in her keep-away kit. Now when she does force an approach she can use Naryu's love to stuff it out from any direction and even allows her to deal with projectiles, again forcing her opponent to approach while her defensive options are already pretty good. I don't want to get too in depth since I lack the frame data and knowledge specifically in this case, but her really good defensive and kill options combined with her ability to zone and always force a usually advantageous approach in neutral creates a pretty annoying character to fight against. Like others, I don't find her 'overpowered' in any sense, just frustrating.

 

[Vitriform]

Honestly just the way that Nayru's Love and Din's fire work currently.

She is able to place a projectile wherever she wants from a safe distance, and it will come back to her once activated.

Nayru's love is a good "get off of me" move, but it seems a little too safe if that's what it's intended to do. In most other fighting games, anything that has intangibility or invincibility at the start tends to have quite a bit of end lag and be punishable, but maybe it's really punishable and I'm just bad.

I don't think Zelda is really overpowered, she's just not a fun character to fight.

That's fair. I can understand why you find that frustrating. It's important to keep in mind that only grounded Nayru has invulnerability though, and the grounded version is extremely committal. Aerial Nayru does land cancel, but it has no invuln, and it has huge holes in the hitboxes above and below Zelda. As Ike, you can use your disjointed range to swing through the aerial version (you'll have to space correctly, of course). The grounded version can be shielded, and you get a free punish as soon as the hitboxes end.

The disadvantage of Din's Fire is in its long startup. The best time to go in on her is when she's setting a Din. If she tries to set a Din too close to you, make her pay for it. It's only safe at extremely long range or when the opponent is staggered (e.g. offstage, in a techchase situation, etc.)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Can somebody give me an in-depth explanation on why people think Fox is the best in the game? I know he is top tier, but he gets chaingrabbed and combo'd extremely hard by the entire cast, a gimpable recovery (and worse in 3.6 due to the sakurai-combo risk gone), and shine not being able to gimp at 0% anymore. Shine is still a great tool, but waveshine can't combo as well and gimping isn't as effectI've, making the MUs like falcon and Ganon less in his favour. I can't see why people still see him as the very best.

 

[robosteven]

all of these complaints about Zelda being a zoner and nobody's talking about Samus, Link, or Tink, all of who have a more projectile-centric game than Zelda

I hate fighting Zelda as much of the next guy but please

 

[redbeanjelly]

Someone posted a great explanation of all the Zelda hate a while back, took me a while to find it but here ya go. Credit to @Downdraft - http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-879#post-19888691

 

[Life]

Zelda's not that bad once you have a handle on her angles of attack. You should almost never get kicked straight out of neutral, for instance.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm fine with zoners in Smash but I think there's better ways to implement them than Zelda. There hasn't been an incarnation of Zelda in PM that was actually fun to fight against.

Snake I think fits a zoner niche well while still being enjoyable to play against. Tranqs are a little wacky when you combine them with C4 though.

I'm feeling pretty much the exact opposite. I find zelda underwhelming but interesting/enjoyable to play against now, while snake is a pain in the ass to fight.

Zelda has multiple good anti air/anti approach options, in kicks/neutral b/ up smash/nair, but they are all punishable if they made the wrong call or it got baited. Dins fire hardly does anything, because if it's placed far away you can just clank it, if she does it while you are still close most characters can just punish her for it, but she doesn't directly benefit from it unless she's close and in a stagger position. I feel like zelda has fair tools to use and play against.

Snake on the other hand feels like garbage to play against unless you have a sword. He actively discorages you from trying to hit him by pulling a grenade, depending on port priority counterplay to him changes, upb has crazy hitboxes and priority and is a combo tool, sticky feels like **** to play against. Like, I don't find it fun trying to wade through mines and grenades and mortars, if any of them hitting I get Tranqd on the tech chase then grabbed, hit by guaranteed upthrow (regrab and uptilt as needed) sticky, then unless you're playing a floaty it's another tech chase. Upair is stronger than fox's. Up b can be shortened at any time while still putting out a hurt box above him, and he can hit himself and up b again or di in and tech the stage, grenades/mortars act as combo breakers, he can di into his own mines to end combos prematurely, it's just not fun to play against.

Zelda is an example of a probably underpowered zoning character that has normal interactions. Snake is a probably pretty ballanced zone/trap character that feels like garbage to play against.

 

[MLGF]

I practice with a Zelda, and Ike wrecks her and has a fun time doing it.
I think you're going about the MU wrong at this point. There's no reason Zelda should be hard or annoying for you at this point.