Tier List Speculation

[KiteAF]

Just let Bowser spit Mr Saturns at people. Top tier item game.

 

[Kneato]

Bowser B: Fireball
Shoots a large (like, in between Full Aura Sphere and Aura Bomb) projectile that travels a little slower than he runs. Deals 15%~ and can clank/beat most other projectiles. On hit, it sends 90* upwards like when Mario burns his butt on fire.

Bowser Fsmash: Royal Punch

Similar timing to the current Fsmash

But travels about this far (A body length), and is progressively weaker the further it's out with the initial swing being more powerful.

I would suggest the fire ball be no more than full aura sphere sized. That huge of a projectile is a bit overkill, especially just for a B move he could throw out at will. Lucario only gets Aura Bombs via his Aura charge system, and the move has a considerable amount of startup.

 

[nimigoha]

And of course make it so only 1 can be out at once like Ivy.

 

[JOE!]

And of course make it so only 1 can be out at once like Ivy.

Yeah, was gonna say that too lol

 

[Narelex]

fox doesn't lose to ROB anymore lol. ROB lost good punishments on fox in the form of his chain grab, and fox gained good punishments on ROB in the form of uthrow uair which was not possible before
and there's no reason to believe fox loses to GnW, short of knee jerk reaction to lucky losing an unfamiliar matchup, GnW can kinda fraud his way through a lot of characters neutral by suffocating them with hitboxes, which I feel is less potent with MU exp, but fox doesn't even need that when he can nair through bacon and bait out aerials so easily
honestly don't see MK beating fox either given he has no real punishments on fox at low percent
the others I have no opinion on, but still ask you provide some support before making those kind of claims

I believe you misunderstood. I meant that these characters have the ability to beat a Fox. The MU's aren't in their favour.

Apologies if that wasn't clear.

 

[steelguttey]

...I would never willingly fight an MK ever again.

It's very difficult for me to speculate tiers and viability for certain characters when the only character I have experience playing as gets totally ****ing trashed by like four or five matchups.

So like

I can pretty much solidly place one character on a tier list for this reason alone lol



It's also one of the main reasons I will probably never think of G&W as top tier. Optimal MU experience applied, top level Marth should pretty much never lose to G&W ever. Aside from Fox - Olimar, it comes to mind as one of the freest matchups in the game.

And even then, it's not unwinnable, but it's damn hard.

tl;dr I don't know how good MK is because my only real experience I have fighting him are with Olimar and that MU's hard as hell, and there's no way in hell G&W is top tier for reason of the Marth matchup alone. Every 3.6 tier list posted that has him above A should be disregarded entirely.



Theorizing Olimar changes is really difficult for this very reason, primarily due to how as of right now Pikmin Throw more or less makes or breaks a matchup.

i think mk-oli is even. hes not only the perfect combo weight for us but we are one of the few characters that can anti air him. pikmin toss is just as good as any matchup, really. me and naralex had a long talk about it and i see it as even. fox-olimar is not only cancer but entirely reliant on how many purples olimar gets, i think olimar wins it with only purples. but thats completely pointless to not because rng is stupid and unreliable

**** this character

 

[Life]

IDK, I still think Bowser's fsmash would be really cool if it were just a big ol' backhand.

Pit's fine aside from the multihit issue. I wouldn't complain if he got buffed next patch, but he doesn't, strictly speaking, need it.

 

[JOE!]

Big backhand? What do you mean? The BiS punch is at least 3.14x better

 

[nimigoha]

I'm all for multihit moves being SDI-able to escape the strong hit but when you can get hit by them, not SDI, and fall out then it's just kinda dumb.

 

[Narelex]

i think mk-oli is even. hes not only the perfect combo weight for us but we are one of the few characters that can anti air him. pikmin toss is just as good as any matchup, really. me and naralex had a long talk about it and i see it as even. fox-olimar is not only cancer but entirely reliant on how many purples olimar gets, i think olimar wins it with only purples. but thats completely pointless to not because rng is stupid and unreliable

**** this character

We talked about it but upon playing the MU more it never feels like it's even. being able to anti air MK doesn't matter as much since correct MK play means staying on the ground and abusing your speed/DD. Olimar is also very easy to combo for MK. But as we've discussed prior punish games aren't everything. It feels like its in MK's favour personally but by how much I'm not exactly sure.

I don't know what the quality of the MK's you face is, but the reverse is also true for me and olimar. This is why MU's are so stupidly hard to get a feel for in this game.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser B: Fireball
Shoots a large (like, in between Full Aura Sphere and Aura Bomb) projectile that travels a little slower than he runs. Deals 15%~ and can clank/beat most other projectiles. On hit, it sends 90* upwards like when Mario burns his butt on fire.

Bowser Fsmash: Royal Punch

Similar timing to the current Fsmash

But travels about this far (A body length), and is progressively weaker the further it's out with the initial swing being more powerful.

How about this, it *consumes* other projectiles and hits 3 times a hit box on the front, middle and end (4%) each and allows for follow ups on shield and no knock back, just stun.

Or keep his fire breath and transendent flames, but if a projectile reaches his mouth (which it will because transendent flames) then he will swallow it and store it as a charge (up to 3 stores, all fire seperately) to be released by double tapping neutral b. and the power will be 1.5x the projectile and the speed will be 1.5x also.

Also give him a klaw stall that doesnt involve hard inputs that will kill you on failure.

 

[JOE!]

what do you mean by "consume"? Simply beating out most other projectiles with a meaty hit would be enough

 

[Narelex]

what do you mean by "consume"? Simply beating out most other projectiles with a meaty hit would be enough

I am really liking the idea's people are coming up with for Bowser. Flames feel in a weird spot atm where they can interrupt movement or rack up damage but it doesn't help his neutral. Big Fireball sounds like it could be very interesting.

Also flying flamethrower when?

 

[CORY]

and big fireball is also canonical, as opposed to eating projectiles while he's breathing fire ;x

 

[robosteven]

Is there any consensus on how people feel Pit should be changed/buffed? The most common complaint I've heard is changing Upsmash/Uptilt/Nair so people don't fall out of them as easily, but does the character need anything else to hang with the top tiers?

I think he's in a really good spot right now tbh.

 

[Draco_The]

I like how in Brawl- Bowser bounces when touching the floor and recovers pretty fast with his down B.

 

[Player -0]

I'd say he's ALMOST in a good spot. Some minor complaints.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I am really liking the idea's people are coming up with for Bowser. Flames feel in a weird spot atm where they can interrupt movement or rack up damage but it doesn't help his neutral. Big Fireball sounds like it could be very interesting.

Also flying flamethrower when?

Like consume as in ganondorfs ganduken in brawl minus 3.Q and im saying eating a projectile while in breath because without a projectile throwing opponent, it would be useless and more of a crippling problem than just having flames. (falcon, swords, ect)

 

[JOE!]

er.... so you mena simply beating them out like how charge shot will plow though like, PK Freeze?

 

[robosteven]

I'd say he's ALMOST in a good spot. Some minor complaints.

Compared to other characters that could use some changes, the ones Pit needs are pretty minimal.

 

[PlateProp]

Compared to other characters that could use some changes, the ones Pit needs are pretty minimal.

4 frame jump squat for pit when?

I agree with this though, they salvaged pit from 3.5 pretty well. Once he gets smoothed out a but more he'll feel great

 

[redbeanjelly]

4 frame jump squat for pit when?

I agree with this though, they salvaged pit from 3.5 pretty well. Once he gets smoothed out a but more he'll feel great

Ahhh, that would be great! Wavedashing with Pit always felt sluggish to me; I'd love it if he had a 4 frame jumpsquat.

 

[Nausicaa]

Pit's N-Air was funner when it had actual knockback. (2.6plz)
Chari's Fire is in a stupider spots than Bowser what is this talk about

If Kirby had his 64 F-Air would he be able to take space/corner people enough to make them want to engage him?

I won't bring up his tier-placement thing (he's good enough) but I skimmed that conversation about him slowing the game down too much for people to have fun.

Rather than do the old 'Make everyone faster than everyone else' of 'Projectiles and range for days' there are other ways of making characters have ways of doing stuff.
Ooze hits people SOMETIMES and Ganon corners people SOMEHOW.

Watching Kirby stall a game in 64 is kind of fun, because it's interactive and if you don't TRY to deal with Kirby camping with DD U-Tilts, then he'll take your space and hit you with one and his wall hurts to try passing.

Think this meta-game will develop with PM Kirby ENOUGH to be fun, or do people really think it's hopeless and he'll bore everyone long-term?

He's a trolly character a mid-high level play, that's a clear result of this situation.

PS: Again, kind of off-topic BECAUSE EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT CHANGES WHAT...
...but yeah, Kirby is pretty good. Being on the niche/low/whatever end of the game in this state is needed. SOMEBODY has to be there, and Kirby does a good job in that spot.

 

[Tarul]

Just saying, but wouldn't giving Bowser a strong projectile allow him to ledge camp super hard? He already has one of the best ledge options (probably the best) pre-100%, and giving him a projectile that automatically beats other projectiles sounds like an invitation for Bowser to just camp by ledge the whole match and try to cheese... especially since he can always up-b back to the edge to refresh the ledge stall.

I'm not against the idea at all, I'm just curious how you'd balance this.

Also, speaking of suggestions, why not make Bowser run like a humanoid? In like every recent Mario game, Bowser pretty much moves like a humanoid. It's kinda weird to see him move around like a tank. He seems more like a dragon-lizard-thing in the pre-Brawl Smash games than Bowser, the Koopa King from the Mario games.

 

[nimigoha]

Just saying, but wouldn't giving Bowser a strong projectile allow him to ledge camp super hard? He already has one of the best ledge options (probably the best) pre-100%,

Haha, if 15 frames of actionable invincibility isn't the best pre-100% ledge options isn't the best in the game I'd love to know what is

 

[Narelex]

Just saying, but wouldn't giving Bowser a strong projectile allow him to ledge camp super hard? He already has one of the best ledge options (probably the best) pre-100%, and giving him a projectile that automatically beats other projectiles sounds like an invitation for Bowser to just camp by ledge the whole match and try to cheese... especially since he can always up-b back to the edge to refresh the ledge stall.

I'm not against the idea at all, I'm just curious how you'd balance this.

Also, speaking of suggestions, why not make Bowser run like a humanoid? In like every recent Mario game, Bowser pretty much moves like a humanoid. It's kinda weird to see him move around like a tank. He seems more like a dragon-lizard-thing in the pre-Brawl Smash games than Bowser, the Koopa King from the Mario games.

That can be remedied by having it have long ending lag when in the air but allowing it to be landing cancelled like a samus missile. This prevents abuse at the edge and lets it still maintain its presence onstage.

There are likely other solutions as well and I'm sure it could be tested thoroughly.

 

[FreeGamer]

Think this meta-game will develop with PM Kirby ENOUGH to be fun, or do people really think it's hopeless and he'll bore everyone long-term?

I think he already has bored everyone, considering how rarely he's used in 3.5/3.6. ._.

Not that I blame them... playing as Crouch/Dash Attack/B-Air/D-Throw the character can only be fun for so long.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

What if Bowser had sh shoot a quick little fireball perfect wave land? krey.

Seriously though, I really like the idea of slow moving giant Saumus charge shot like thing, it would let Bowser force the opponent to choose an option, which is all he really needs.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ MagnesD3
I don't know enough about either character to say much. For DK though, he has issues with his neutral. While dtilt (is ftilt good too?) and Bair are really good in neutral and DK has an amazing punish/kill game, he has issues leading from neutral because he needs a grab/nair/jab, which aren't as easy to land.

@ robosteven
That's why I was joking when I said that about u throw. It is the reason I think he doesn't go even with Fox (currently, reaction tech chasing fixes this). He still does well v Fox and like I said, I want no changes to Meta Knight (unless it were to address the "boring swordy" aspect, but its too late for that level of change and you could argue some of the other swordies could be better candidates for it).

 

[Player -0]

I agree with this though, they salvaged pit from 3.5 pretty well. Once he gets smoothed out a but more he'll feel great

Pit wasn't even that broken in 3.5. A lot of people just saw buffs in 3.6b/f and jumped on Pit and said he felt pretty good even though he was pretty baller in 3.5.

Pit's BnB of D-Smash and Up Smash were also nerfed in 3.6b/f. He got back some startup from 3.02 -> 3.5 nerfed D-Tilt but that was pretty much a given.

Also glide nerf.

And probably something else I forgot.

He got 5 frames of IASA for Down B though which is really dumb and idk why that's still in the game. It's pretty broken imo.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You guys are going about fixing bowser the wrong way, you don't fix a characters polarized matchup spreads by giving them strong singular tools that will inevitably break characters in some matchups and lose hard to others. You fix polarization issues by buffing huge pointless deficits in the characters attributes/design. Bowser has one of the worst dash momentum carry into a jump, making his very good aerials into a sub-par approach game. This is part of his overall problem of being unable to threaten adequate space safely. A fireball would threaten space safely but not in a low commitment way... Unless it had low startup, but then you would have made bowser into a character that just trounces slow characters.
You can deal with his issues by letting bowser get better conversions off of his space threatening tools, such that he can lose neutral more often than the other character but have a higher ratio of stocks taken:neutral wins.
Honestly I think he could use some frames of endlag trimmed from his dash attack and have the angle pulled in slightly, then give his dash grab slightly longer reach and more active frames with less endlag. Another slight DD improvement, better full-run speed and better momentum carry into his dash jumps should be next when the above inevitably isn't enough.
Usually what ruins bowser are fast characters who can just avoid dealing with him until he commits, with an occasional grab approach to force him to respect space. He can't out run them at all on his retreat nor on their retreat, forcing him to take preemptive action with his dash attack usually to catch them mid approach; at that point the opponent just gets the benefit off bowser always needing to be more in their threat zone than they are in his, or always far away enough to steal stage space from him. Yes, this does also worsen matchups for characters that already lost to bowser (can't actually be that many) but it does so in way that's much more manageable in terms if fixing the polarization problems for OTHER characters too.

 

[MagnesD3]

i think mk-oli is even. hes not only the perfect combo weight for us but we are one of the few characters that can anti air him. pikmin toss is just as good as any matchup, really. me and naralex had a long talk about it and i see it as even. fox-olimar is not only cancer but entirely reliant on how many purples olimar gets, i think olimar wins it with only purples. but thats completely pointless to not because rng is stupid and unreliable

**** this character

I honestly think olimars pikmin should have a fixed order just like smash 4...

 

[robosteven]

I honestly think olimars pikmin should have a fixed order just like smash 4...

This has been discussed and I don't know how I feel about it

but respawning against someone at kill percentage with a white Pikmin and a yellow Pikmin is unacceptable.

 

[Zigludo]

When I see someone do something with DK I'll believe you.

reminds me of what I heard people say about game and watch this time last year

 

[MagnesD3]

reminds me of what I heard people say about game and watch this time last year

If I saw an amazing dk on the level of Mr Lz I'd be blown away

 

[Zigludo]

yeah... still reminds me of what people said about GnW this time last year

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

If I saw an amazing dk on the level of Mr Lz I'd be blown away

Only good dk i ever play against is Georgia's brass monkey, but Georgia doesn't really stream serious matches that often. Think he was doing friendlies with Mr Lz, but got put out 2-1 by link(red) and hungrybox if I remember right.

Dk is one of those characters that if played right, will bore everyone -.-

 

[DrinkingFood]

Haha, if 15 frames of actionable invincibility isn't the best pre-100% ledge options isn't the best in the game I'd love to know what is

fox

 

[Soft Serve]

If I saw an amazing dk on the level of Mr Lz I'd be blown away

Thunderreigns is the best dk. Watch him do dk things. Iirc he thinks dk is upper half

fox

I almost said this but tried to contain myself

 

[DrinkingFood]

I lied
Bowser can get off the edge and act in 14 frames, giving him 13 actionable invul frames max, Fox can get off the edge and act in 15 frames giving him 12 actionable invul frames max. Fox can perfect waveland rather than going down at an angle tho, letting him get further instage
THANK GOODNESS FOX IS BALANCED AMIRITE
Fox's is also somewhat harder to get frame perfect consistently because it's got an extra input in there. What's funny is I don't think fox has a single (normal) move, including his aerials, that can't hit before he loses invulnerability, except maybe fsmash? lmao.