Tier List Speculation

[FlamingForce]

I lied
Bowser can get off the edge and act in 14 frames, giving him 13 actionable invul frames max, Fox can get off the edge and act in 15 frames giving him 12 actionable invul frames max. Fox can perfect waveland rather than going down at an angle tho, letting him get further instage
THANK GOODNESS FOX IS BALANCED AMIRITE
Fox's is also somewhat harder to get frame perfect consistently because it's got an extra input in there. What's funny is I don't think fox has a single (normal) move, including his aerials, that can't hit before he loses invulnerability, except maybe fsmash? lmao.

Fsmash is active from frame 12 so yeah, he can toss out every single move in his arsenal while intangible.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

er.... so you mena simply beating them out like how charge shot will plow though like, PK Freeze?

Right, but the ganduken isnt actually "strong" (it deals 3% per hit over the course of travelling) so it doesnt over power them just straight up consumes them.

You guys are going about fixing bowser the wrong way, you don't fix a characters polarizated matchup spreads by giving them strong singular tools that will inevitably break characters in some matchups and lose hard to others. You fix polarization issues by buffing huge pointless deficits in the characters attributes/design. Bowser has one of the worst dash momentum carry into a jump, making his very good aerials into a sub-par approach game. This is part of his overall problem of being unable to threaten adequate space safely. A fireball would threaten space safely but not in a low commitment way... Unless it had low startup, but then you would have made bowser into a character that just trounces slow characters.
You can deal with his issues by letting bowser get better conversions off of his space threatening tools, such that he can lose neutral more often than the other character but have a higher ratio of stocks taken:neutral wins.
Honestly I think he could use some frames of endlag trimmed from his dash attack and have the angle pulled in slightly, then give his dash grab slightly longer reach and more active frames with less endlag. Another slight DD improvement, better full-run speed and better momentum carry into his dash jumps should be next when the above inevitably isn't enough.
Usually what ruins bowser are fast characters who can just avoid dealing with him until he commits, with an occasional grab approach to force him to respect space. He can't out run them at all on his retreat nor on their retreat, forcing him to take preemptive action with his dash attack usually to catch them mid approach; at that point the opponent just gets the benefit off bowser always needing to be more in their threat zone than they are in his, or always far away enough to steal stage space from him. Yes, this does also worsen matchups for characters that already lost to bowser (can't actually be that many) but it does so in way that's much more manageable in terms if fixing the polarization problems for OTHER characters too.

So better frame data and air mobility? I can dig that, i dont know how well it will stop him from getting camped out or smashed by falcon though until we actually tested this. It only seems to give him positive match ups but the negatives are still 20-80.

 

[Jonyc128]

I lied
Bowser can get off the edge and act in 14 frames, giving him 13 actionable invul frames max, Fox can get off the edge and act in 15 frames giving him 12 actionable invul frames max. Fox can perfect waveland rather than going down at an angle tho, letting him get further instage
THANK GOODNESS FOX IS BALANCED AMIRITE
Fox's is also somewhat harder to get frame perfect consistently because it's got an extra input in there. What's funny is I don't think fox has a single (normal) move, including his aerials, that can't hit before he loses invulnerability, except maybe fsmash? lmao.

Can't Mario do the same thing as well, with an even better perfect waveland?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Thunderreigns is the best dk. Watch him do dk things. Iirc he thinks dk is upper half


I almost said this but tried to contain myself

They both think dk is upper half. He has a positive matchup vs spacing the character (marth) so who am i to disagree. I still think as the game fleshes out, kirby will be bottom 5.

Lol random thought, let's make our dk players battle each other for our amusement, can't think of anything more exciting than a dk ditto... ooh a knitting contest hype

 

[JOE!]

Bananna eating kongtest

 

[DrinkingFood]

Can't Mario do the same thing as well, with an even better perfect waveland?

not at the same speed. fox only has to rise during his DJ for 3 frames before he can perfect waveland onto the stage, for mario it would likely be a lot longer since he doesn't have the quickest double jump in the game

 

[steelguttey]

I honestly think olimars pikmin should have a fixed order just like smash 4...

at school rn but set order is a silly idea for alot of reasons, mostly making pikmin management slower for no reason. theres a ton of other ways to fix rng, set order is just a lazy way of doing it tbh

 

[DrinkingFood]

what other ways are there even doing it besides set order and RNG lol
RNG shouldn't even be in the game as far as I'm concerned, it's just stupid to have a game with money on the line have the possibility to come down to chance. But correct me if I'm wrong, RNG and set order are the only two options...? Unless you give olimar a way to choose what he plucks, but then you still have RNG at the start of the game and on every spawn.

 

[Mc.Rad]

what other ways are there even doing it besides set order and RNG lol
RNG shouldn't even be in the game as far as I'm concerned, it's just stupid to have a game with money on the line have the possibility to come down to chance. But correct me if I'm wrong, RNG and set order are the only two options...? Unless you give olimar a way to choose what he plucks, but then you still have RNG at the start of the game and on every spawn.

To be honest that's kinda the truth. But then again that makes every game past the 1st one stupid because Game and Watch and Peach have down specials based on RNG

 

[Jonyc128]

not at the same speed. fox only has to rise during his DJ for 3 frames before he can perfect waveland onto the stage, for mario it would likely be a lot longer since he doesn't have the quickest double jump in the game

Well obviously not at the speed but Mario gets around the same amount of active invulnerable frames. Somewhere between 10-12 IIRC, which is enough for him to do every normal except for dair and fsmash

 

[nimigoha]

Even with Fox being close, you have to look at the inputs.

To do a perfect waveland with Fox you have to

1) release on the first possible frame
2) jump on the correct frame
3) swing he control stick to the correct angle (maybe not if you Cstick dropped)
4) air dodge on the right frame

For Bowser it's

1) jump on the first possible frame
2) swing the control stick to the right angle but you can't die if you mess up
3) air dodge on the right frame but it's the same timing as a frame 3 wavedash

100x easier and you get more. I've tried getting invincible ledgedashes down with Fox and it's so incredibly hard. Bowser's anyone can do in 2 tries.

Still hilarious that Fox is in second though.

 

[Life]

what other ways are there even doing it besides set order and RNG lol

Force Olimar to only pluck Pikmin of a color he doesn't already have. (Which makes matchups where he badly needs a certain color really rough, but at least he could farm until he has every color and then throw away the rest?)

I guess that would technically be either set order or RNG while multiple colors are missing, but there's a certain level of control to that.

 

[FlamingForce]

Maybe make hold-b play a slightly longer animation for a gauranteed purple or something.

 

[Boiko]

What if you could use the whistle to dictate the next pikmin plucked? Currently, the whistle resets the order of the pikmin into a set order depending on what pikmin are in your lineup and how many times you have already whistled. It's complicated to explain, but it's a unique system, that I personally like.

Anyway, I'm suggesting leaving the order random, unless the whistle is used to force your next pull. The order of operations would go like this:
-Random plucking
-Whistle
-Red pluck
-Random plucking
-Whistle
-Yellow pluck
-Whistle
-Blue pluck
-Whistle
-Whistle (skip white)
-Purple pluck

It would be an interesting dynamic, because you can whistle three times, do what you normally do, and then when the time comes to net a grab kill, pluck to get a blue. Or whistle five times when you respawn, pluck a purple.

Thoughts? I don't really see anyone utilizing whistling right now other than to just pull their pikmin together. I think this is because not many people know how it actually works.

Edit: And to that point, I think that if people started using whistle better, they would see a lot more success. It's a very strong tool for particular set ups.

Force Olimar to only pluck Pikmin of a color he doesn't already have. (Which makes matchups where he badly needs a certain color really rough, but at least he could farm until he has every color and then throw away the rest?)
I guess that would technically be either set order or RNG while multiple colors are missing, but there's a certain level of control to that.

How would you get two of the same color in that instance? I personally like to always have two purples, two reds, or two yellows whenever possible.

 

[DMG]

Ledge dash has more than DJ speed. Mario probably holds the edge higher up than many chars cause he, Doc, and Luigi iirc all had great ledge dash in Melee and have similar ledge grab heights. Marth and others may hold ledge fairly low so they cant haveas strong ledge dash. Char size / ECB sizes / DJ body contortions probably play into it as well

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Even with Fox being close, you have to look at the inputs.

To do a perfect waveland with Fox you have to

1) release on the first possible frame
2) jump on the correct frame
3) swing he control stick to the correct angle (maybe not if you Cstick dropped)
4) air dodge on the right frame

For Bowser it's

1) jump on the first possible frame
2) swing the control stick to the right angle but you can't die if you mess up
3) air dodge on the right frame but it's the same timing as a frame 3 wavedash

100x easier and you get more. I've tried getting invincible ledgedashes down with Fox and it's so incredibly hard. Bowser's anyone can do in 2 tries.

Still hilarious that Fox is in second though.

Why is there 1 extra step in fox? what is this release step? Are you referring to ledge jumping into a wave land and then into a dash?


Actually can some one explain the benefits and differences of bowsers DJ wave land on the ledge as compared to a edge jump wave land?

 

[DMG]

Ledge jump into waveland likely loses invincibility or doesnt retain as long vs true ledge drop dj ledge dash. However you can use ledge jump waveland onto platforms as an option usually not in Melee

Side by side, trying to waveland immediately onto main stage, ledge dash> ledge jump WL barring any weird ledge jump mechanics or terrible ledge dash (peach M2 etc)

 

[prem]

Thunderreigns is the best dk. Watch him do dk things. Iirc he thinks dk is upper half


I almost said this but tried to contain myself

Nah he thinks dk is trash lol

 

[Kneato]

Why is there 1 extra step in fox? what is this release step? Are you referring to ledge jumping into a wave land and then into a dash?


Actually can some one explain the benefits and differences of bowsers DJ wave land on the ledge as compared to a edge jump wave land?

For some reason, Bowser can act out of edge jump ridiculously early (like after only a few frames) and can therefor waveland on stage while keeping a ton of invincibility

 

[Player -0]

So Puff has a lot of air mobility. What if Kirby got a lot of max air speed? It would make it so Kirby isn't like Puff but help its mobility.

With Kirby's jumps it can get to max airspeed/switch direction so Kirby has more commitment so less weaving but etc etc

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah most characters sub 100% have like a 14+ frame ledgejump animation.

Bowser's is 3.

Doing a traditional drop from ledge>jump>waveland on is like waaaay worse than just pressing jump and airdodge on Bowser.

Other characters like Lucas and Ness have cool DJC things that are similar.

 

[Player -0]

Well derpy DJ characters pretty much have to ledgejump because derpy DJs

 

[FreeGamer]

So Puff has a lot of air mobility. What if Kirby got a lot of max air speed? It would make it so Kirby isn't like Puff but help its mobility.

With Kirby's jumps it can get to max airspeed/switch direction so Kirby has more commitment so less weaving but etc etc

That would be a godsend for his punish game and help him a lot against projectile walls. It might just be crazy enough to work. ^_^

 

[tasteless gentleman]

For some reason, Bowser can act out of edge jump ridiculously early (like after only a few frames) and can therefor waveland on stage while keeping a ton of invincibility

I know that, but is there really such a thing as a perfect wave land from ledge jump? I can wave land from a jump and it looks.... ugly, albeit im not trying to immediately dash afterwards. how much invincibility does bowser get out of this?

 

[Ripple]

he gets something around ~15 frames if done perfectly.

 

[Rᴏb]

A set order of Pikmin is a strictly good change compared to the RNG he has now. Olimar's kit is one of the worst designed in the game with how convoluted, random, polarizing and redundant his key tools are.

There's no reason for him to have a random order of Pikmin at this point because all it does is cause players to be at a huge disadvantage or advantage at any point during the match by giving Olimar players such horrible tools for setting up their Pikmin lineup. Having to farm indefinitely until you have a favorable lineup for the specific MU you're in is stupid when you only have fleeting chances to pluck Pikmin that could also potentially make your lineup worse; this disparity is one of the most offensive things in this game imo. Sometimes it works in your favor, but other times it's ******** how ridiculous (in both senses of the word) of a lineup you can get in such an arbitrary fashion. A set order of Pikmin would relieve this issue by creating a sense of consistency within Olimar's lineup and frankly his kit as a whole. Olimar players shouldn't be penalized or rewarded in such a random fashion when the viability of their character hinges on this one aspect.

If a set order did end up making it into the game, I think that a few other changes to Olimar's kit would be necessary to give his players the most cohesive experience possible. First, I think his Pikmin pluck as well as his whistle would need to be sped up in order to give his players more of a chance to alter their lineups since they would be required to do so on a much more consistent basis. Second, his whistle should be relegated to shifting his order of Pikmin by one, so a lineup consisting of Red, Purple, White and Blue would always shift to Purple, White, Blue and Red after whistling. Personally, I find this way to be much simpler, obvious, and more beneficial than the way his whistle currently works. Having a whistle that shifts Pikmin in the same way as doing a move does is much easier to understand and allows you to control and maintain the variety of your lineup which leads to you having more options at the end of the day. Third, his antennae should indicate the next Pikmin he is about to pluck. There is no reason for it to indicate the next Pkimin you're about to use because you can already clearly see that. The way it works currently is simply redundant and ends up helping Olimar's opponents more so than it helps Olimar's actual players. The final change I would give Olimar would be to increase his lineup capacity by 1. I'm not exactly confident that this change is necessary, but I do think it would be beneficial to Olimar by allowing him to have a greater variety in his lineup which, again, would lead to him having more options.

 

[robosteven]

When I see someone do something with DK I'll believe you.

have you not been paying attention to streams for the past few years

DK's good and has plenty of rep

 

[MagnesD3]

at school rn but set order is a silly idea for alot of reasons, mostly making pikmin management slower for no reason. theres a ton of other ways to fix rng, set order is just a lazy way of doing it tbh

Lazy or consistent? I find characters whose main thing is Rng to be poorly designed (minus omen).

have you not been paying attention to streams for the past few years

DK's good and has plenty of rep

Yes I've payed attention and having seen very little high level dk play that shows him as a competent character like the majority of the cast.

 

[DMG]

Pikmin order / plucking gets standardized, with nerf to Purples as counter balance

Let's all be happy now

 

[robosteven]

what other ways are there even doing it besides set order and RNG lol
RNG shouldn't even be in the game as far as I'm concerned, it's just stupid to have a game with money on the line have the possibility to come down to chance. But correct me if I'm wrong, RNG and set order are the only two options...? Unless you give olimar a way to choose what he plucks, but then you still have RNG at the start of the game and on every spawn.

I have steel blocked and as soon as I read this post I knew it was in response to him because he's the only ****ing Oli player I know who's vehemently against set order.

 

[Ripple]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-clank-rule-needs-to-change.417746/

I'd like to hear some of the people who visit here talk about my suggested change and if it be healthy to the future of the game and how it could influence balance /tier list since it could really benefit the fatties

 

[MagnesD3]

A couple design changes id like to see in the next version. I don't think many (if any) charged moves should stay with a character when they die that way they are encouraged to use it when they have it. Currently players hold it all match until a guaranteed kill setup is created. Aka Solar Beam and Wario Waft. Both of those moves should reset whenever the character loses a stock. Why ever use waft as recovery when it can be turned into a guaranteed kill move next stock.


Ps: if I'm overlooking other characters with this charge type of hold over mechanic plz inform me cuz I want this flawed design to go away.

PSS: Can the Pmdt change Solar beam to not just go right through the stage as it's a bit silly. If they can't I understand otherwise there's no excuse really IMO.

 

[FlamingForce]

A couple design changes id like to see in the next version. I don't think many (if any) charged moves should stay with a character when they die that way they are encouraged to use it when they have it. Currently players hold it all match until a guaranteed kill setup is created. Aka Solor Beam and Wario Waft. Both of those moves should reset whenever the character loses a stock. Why ever use waft as recovery when it can be turned into a guaranteed kill move next stock.


Ps: if I'm overlooking other characters with this charge type of hold over mechanic plz inform me cuz I want this flawed design to go away.

I'd say Lucario qualifies.

 

[MagnesD3]

I'd say Lucario qualifies.

I thought he just starts each stock with a set amount of aura but doesn't retain the amount he had upon death or am I wrong? If I'm wrong it should be changed as well.

 

[nimigoha]

That's how it used to work but now it's start game with 1 charge, then you respawn with whatever you died with.

 

[PlateProp]

A couple design changes id like to see in the next version. I don't think many (if any) charged moves should stay with a character when they die that way they are encouraged to use it when they have it. Currently players hold it all match until a guaranteed kill setup is created. Aka Solor Beam and Wario Waft. Both of those moves should reset whenever the character loses a stock. Why ever use waft as recovery when it can be turned into a guaranteed kill move next stock.


Ps: if I'm overlooking other characters with this charge type of hold over mechanic plz inform me cuz I want this flawed design to go away.

PSS: Can the Pmdt change Solar beam to not just go right through the stage as it's a bit silly. If they can't I understand otherwise there's no excuse really IMO.

Removal of auto charges as a whole would be good too, like why does ROB get free laser charge? Pls

Also cause it would be funny as hell to see wario just scrunch his face up as he charges his ass to fart

 

[MagnesD3]

That's how it used to work but now it's start game with 1 charge, then you respawn with whatever you died with.

I definitely think it was better designed the other way, they should really go back. I hope the pmdt internally realizes that keeping these types of charge maintaining after death mechanics makes for less intelligent play and overall gives less risky moves to certain characters over others for no good reason.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

A set order of Pikmin is a strictly good change compared to the RNG he has now. Olimar's kit is one of the worst designed in the game with how convoluted, random, polarizing and redundant his key tools are.

There's no reason for him to have a random order of Pikmin at this point because all it does is cause players to be at a huge disadvantage or advantage at any point during the match by giving Olimar players such horrible tools for setting up their Pikmin lineup. Having to farm indefinitely until you have a favorable lineup for the specific MU you're in is stupid when you only have fleeting chances to pluck Pikmin that could also potentially make your lineup worse; this disparity is one of the most offensive things in this game imo. Sometimes it works in your favor, but other times it's ******** how ridiculous (in both senses of the word) of a lineup you can get in such an arbitrary fashion. A set order of Pikmin would relieve this issue by creating a sense of consistency within Olimar's lineup and frankly his kit as a whole. Olimar players shouldn't be penalized or rewarded in such a random fashion when the viability of their character hinges on this one aspect.

If a set order did end up making it into the game, I think that a few other changes to Olimar's kit would be necessary to give his players the most cohesive experience possible. First, I think his Pikmin pluck as well as his whistle would need to be sped up in order to give his players more of a chance to alter their lineups since they would be required to do so on a much more consistent basis. Second, his whistle should be relegated to shifting his order of Pikmin by one, so a lineup consisting of Red, Purple, White and Blue would always shift to Purple, White, Blue and Red after whistling. Personally, I find this way to be much simpler, obvious, and more beneficial than the way his whistle currently works. Having a whistle that shifts Pikmin in the same way as doing a move does is much easier to understand and allows you to control and maintain the variety of your lineup which leads to you having more options at the end of the day. Third, his antennae should indicate the next Pikmin he is about to pluck. There is no reason for it to indicate the next Pkimin you're about to use because you can already clearly see that. The way it works currently is simply redundant and ends up helping Olimar's opponents more so than it helps Olimar's actual players. The final change I would give Olimar would be to increase his lineup capacity by 1. I'm not exactly confident that this change is necessary, but I do think it would be beneficial to Olimar by allowing him to have a greater variety in his lineup which, again, would lead to him having more options.

give him a real recovery while we are at it and i think olimar can be a top tier

Also solar beam is 1 giant (1 dimensional literally) hitbox. its poorly done and im not surprised you keep charges or that it goes through walls. its dumb in that aspect.

 

[KakuCP9]

You might have a point with Wario since he can sit on his butt all day and build up his charge (even then I think it should be only half of his charge lost since it takes awhile to build up) but Ivysaur I disagree with.
Ivysaur needs to stick her neck out in order to build up the charge through grabs (with a crappy grab to boot), setting up situations for up air chains or clear the stage enough to use synthesis safely. Also there's the fact she can't fire solarbeam whenever she wants since it sends her into free fall if does it in the air and has a fair amount of end lag in general coupled with fact that it is very difficult to aim. At most, only 1/5 of the charge should be lost apon stock loss.

 

[MagnesD3]

You might have a point with Wario since he can sit on his butt all day and build up his charge (even then I think it should be only half of his charge lost since it takes awhile to build up) but Ivysaur I disagree with.
Ivysaur needs to stick her neck out in order to build up the charge through grabs (with a crappy grab to boot), setting up situations for up air chains or clear the stage enough to use synthesis safely. Also there's the fact she can't fire solarbeam whenever she wants since it sends her into free fall if does it in the air and has a fair amount of end lag in general coupled with fact that it is very difficult to aim. At most, only 1/5 of the charge should be lost apon stock loss.

If it's that hard to get then they should reduce the amount of time it takes to charge because keeping any of the charge after dying is still bad design. Less bad than before but still bad. I also don't believe solar beam is that hard to hit like you say, ivysaur has plenty of moves designed to put them in the correct spot for the move to work.