Tier List Speculation

[Rawkobo]

Which is why characters should be selected before stages.

And before this thread throws out all the same arguments that get raised everytime this is mentioned:
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-recommended-ruleset.396408/page-6#post-19078134

People need to do this more so things don't go in circles. Mostly because people don't want to read a billion pages of content trying to find specific things.

 

[Nausicaa]

@ Bazkip liking my post doesn't answer the questions I have about this game

 

[Narpas_sword]

I donno why peeps would wanna play Ice Smamus when fire Smamus has the punch to the face and the dtilt of juicy. Seriously, Ice Samus is like weird and stuff. I like it sometimes for lulz though.
Do peeps actually use that at a decent level of play? Or doing the switcheroo with the 2?

i use Ice vs floaties.
Upsmash is a great vert KO move. (compared to the rest of samus' kit)

 

[FreeGamer]

There needs to be a side mod called Project N, where everyone is as bad as Melee Kirby or Brawl Ganon. If everyone is terribad, then no one is... m i rite?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

There needs to be a side mod called Project N, where everyone is as bad as Melee Kirby or Brawl Ganon. If everyone is terribad, then no one is... m i rite?

There already is. Some call it "Super Smash Bros for WiiU"
It's literally the reason why I dropped that game for Project M

 

[Nausicaa]

@ Bazkip liking my post doesn't answer the questions I have about this game

@ Player -0 @ Soft Serve




@ Narpas_sword Makes sense. The Fair is solid vs those aerial shifty faces that are hard to catch too.

Crawl, Crawl Attack even, and SWD are all very functional towards getting those Usmashes quickly and safely and unexpectedly too.

Also tried Ice in doubles, now THAT'S a different game. Cannot play fire-style there. I like the idea of swapping lots, guess ledge-cancelling taunts will actually be more than just an sexy dance.

 

[Soft Serve]

Vote for fun to play against?
+1 to people playing the chars.
I like peeps, they cute and stuff.




First impressions of 3.5 time. (I'm a little behind)




Ganon is nice in this game. Floats and side Bs and quicker attacks in utilt and nair (and etc etc) all allow him to actually GET SOMETHING out of the work he puts in.
He could always corner the crap out of others but couldn't actually HIT anyone once they were cornered unless he overexerted himself. Now he at least has some tricks and options regarding getting hits to connect on a cornered target without either dying or risking more than a reward could offer.
Every patch seems to help him here, and with much of the stuff keeping him down being bopped with nerf-bats a bit (pace-controllers) he's doing fine.

Luigi is overrated around here apparently based on the recent novelty people saw where all counter-play lacked to such an extent and nearly every wildandunecessaryrawgroundedupb thrown out and etc weren't punished at all.
Luigi is underrated on the other hand cause nobody seen shiz from his face to any extent yet worth mentioning, but glimpses help at least. Yallz aint know what's up at allz
But no, him and peach and pika must remain bad-tier because of rules I've heard a long time ago around here. No changing minds allowed. Forever the only competition with ooze for too op to make the list of character-competence know as tiers.

I donno why peeps would wanna play Ice Smamus when fire Smamus has the punch to the face and the dtilt of juicy. Seriously, Ice Samus is like weird and stuff. I like it sometimes for lulz though.
Do peeps actually use that at a decent level of play? Or doing the switcheroo with the 2?


Pace-control stuff
A few chars who were already fairly strong are seemingly WAY stronger than in previous patches because of the tone-down on pace-control.

Zamus got her dash-blasters gone, though the blaster is still good. Her grab was pace-control with that distance-threat too given her speed and range, but now it's more an extend and pressure tool than the opener or opportunistic tool it was before.
M2 obvs had his "shadowball-tp can't do stuff to him" shinans dealt with but he's still beast, that pace-control centralizing tool is mostly nulled though.
Kirby had a bit of pace-control silliness adjusted in a different way, but same idea.
And even to a milder extent are things like TLs bomb tossing and Samus Zair taking minor hits, and QA2 on pika and bacon on Gdubs.
Donno if Marioballs and stuff were tweaked, haven't played much yet and don't have the feels down extensively enough from previous patches to know for sure on some of these things, but wouldn't be surprised. Maybe patch notes sometime but not needed really, this game is cleanly done.

BUT THAT PACE-CONTROL

It all adds up to whoever was hindered PURELY by pace-control is gonna start coming up me thinks.
There's some ROB talk around here it seems, so apparently he's good, but this is basically the IDEAL SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES set-up to let people like Ike and Lucario on the loose. Nothing held them back but pace-control, and it seems to me that they should eventually be popping up and bop some of the cast pretty hard with the kind of turn-over 3.5 made to pacing.
All chars from like Falcon who enjoy to being limited or threatened from weird places, to solid chars like Roy and Bowser (that WD feels good) can actually MOVE and not be in danger because of this being toned down. Seems like they would all thrive in this time of update. The game was leaning to pace-control (Bananas and TPs), but the patch leaned it away, goodgood. Wouldn't be surprised to see any peeps like Wario and Squirt doing great too. Freedom to move and not get clipped unless they're fighting someone like Lucas or Fox who give no crap about your positioning or speed.

Oh and wtf is with the Wolf blaster speed and no nerfs, he was already busted beyond reason.

Just some thoughts. Donno if any of this is sensible because I've only picked up a controller 3 times since patch, but I'm getting back into the game (at least a bit) so yeah.

First impressions are how many months late? haha

Oh last thought.
Wtf happened to tethers I donno how to recover as like Oli or Ivy anymore.
Is there some trick to recovering with a tether to not have so much lag? I can't even drop from hanging anymore. Some button or something? Or did that just get nerfed really hard?

Oh and DACUS seems easy as crap with everyone.
ICs have a weird thing where I can't go the direction I want.
Zelda's Side-B is hilarious and I don't know what to do with it yet.
Pit feels like a new character entirely.
Bowser can move and stuff.
Yoshi is still busted.
Crawling and pivots are still busted.
Sonic feels more proper than ever, like Pit in a different way.
Game feels good in general.
Donno why a few things were changed (Zamus grab and Pika QA2) due to the counter-play to them still growing and generally being fun and quirky in the game without breaking the characters in a too-good or too-bad way. Things like PK Fire and Samus Zairofdeath makes sense, so I guess keeping everything leaning in that null-pace-control direction is sensible even if minor. It's cool though.
I'm glad the more popularly busted chars got bopped with nerf-bats, but I'll simply say...
You missed a few spots.

Good game is good.

To answer some questions:

Spoiler

Mario fireballs got more endlag.

Yeah wolf blaster speed BUFF with minimal nerfs is crazy. He'll probably get toned down some, but he loses to Fox so all is okay

Tethers are really bad now. The landing lag is forced, you can't deal with it if you land on stage. Try drifting back and then up-bing again? or drift back>aeral to hit them off ledge. Olimar/Ivy probably have the worst recoveries in the game.

DACUS windows went from changing based on jump squat to being 2 frames universally. Only the 4 frame jumpsquat characters got easier though (so Wolf/GnW/Marth, Lucas maybe?), and the 3 framers actually have them now.

IC's have a momentum bug with turnarounds shifting it, its weird (but it does give you free AF PC drops lol)

Zelda side-b is really cool now. Pit feels like a new character because he is a new, bad character. Bowser has cool WL stuff? Still slow but got a jumpsquat buff (link did as well iirc, trickle down movement normalization. Better landing detection helped him as well with this)

Yoshi is still crazy but his shield still doesn't work.

crawling and pivots are still top tier un optimized broken movement ****.

also heres the change log lol, catch back up
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-5-changelist

 

[Johnohue]

Jank doesn't equal overpowered. Luigi does have weaknesses which is why he isn't top tier, but he's still jank as all hell. I can't emphasize the difference between game design and balance enough. Things don't have to be overpowered to warrant a "nerf"

Also, I was referring to natural lag on his aerials. You can just keep throwing them out constantly in the air nonstop.

True, you can. But that loses hard to almost everyone. He can't really go anywhere in the air, and none of his stuff is disjoint aside from bair a little bit

 

[FreeGamer]

What about D-Air and N-Air?

 

[D e l t a]

Tethers are really bad now. The landing lag is forced, you can't deal with it if you land on stage. drift back>aeral to hit them off ledge.

Yoshi is still crazy but his shield still doesn't work.

crawling and pivots are still top tier un optimized broken movement ****

Can you please explain these things?

I mostly understand the landing lag & tether mechanics. So you're saying as Ivy, I can Dair after being forced to jump or as Lucas I can magnet -> aerial? Or in general I could air dodge towards the stage? Haven't tested this yet so I'm curious to know.

What do you mean by "his shield doesn't work?"

I also don't understand that last sentence.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

@ Foo but nothing about his normal moveset "warrants" a nerf. His air mobility is so slow and his aerials so lacking in range (sans Down air a little), that the power and speed of them is justified. Nerfing the natural speed and strength of his aerials would make it really tough for him to get kills because he lacks any sort of reliable kill set up.

Also, if you are getting hit by his constant aerials being throw in the air, that's on you. If you're getting combo'd from his many aerrials or running into his nonstop barrage of aerials that he might be throwing out in neutral, that's not a fault of the character. You are not DI-ing correctly for the first case, or you are not thinking when approaching him for the second case to accurately punish him.

What about D-Air and N-Air?

Down air is the only aerial that has decent range but he can't continuously spam it since it starts up pretty slowly, and nair is unsafe to just throw out in neutral since it lasts so long.

 

[Foo]

@ Foo but nothing about his normal moveset "warrants" a nerf. His air mobility is so slow and his aerials so lacking in range (sans Down air a little), that the power and speed of them is justified. Nerfing the natural speed and strength of his aerials would make it really tough for him to get kills because he lacks any sort of reliable kill set up.

Also, if you are getting hit by his constant aerials being throw in the air, that's on you. If you're getting combo'd from his many aerrials or running into his nonstop barrage of aerials that he might be throwing out in neutral, that's not a fault of the character. You are not DI-ing correctly for the first case, or you are not thinking when approaching him for the second case to accurately punish him.

You could make very similar arguments for 90% of the "jank" nerfs in 3.5. I'm not saying luigi needs reworking per se, I'm saying that either no one does, or melee high tiers should get them too. I just want consistency.

 

[Ripple]

my bowser took a game off of zhime.

take notes @ Frost | Odds

 

[Soft Serve]

Can you please explain these things?

I mostly understand the landing lag & tether mechanics. So you're saying as Ivy, I can Dair after being forced to jump or as Lucas I can magnet -> aerial? Or in general I could air dodge towards the stage? Haven't tested this yet so I'm curious to know.

What do you mean by "his shield doesn't work?"

I also don't understand that last sentence.

I Honestly dont know what Mixups olimar and ivy have that can stop people from just holding ledge. I Know that ZSS can drift back, and then if there is a wall she can upair them> walljump up-b reel in. Its one reason why her recovery is much better than the other tether special characters.

The first 6 frames of yoshi's shield is supposed to be invincible, to work like parrying in melee. And it is, however this invincibility doesn't work properly. It Either only blocks that one hitbox that hits you or only that frame of the move that hits you, I forget which. It does work vs grabs though atm. Basically it means Yoshi's shield has 6 frames of startup, except vs some moves/projectiles/grabs. the PMDT probably has some clever fix for it somehow though.

Pivots/Crawls allow for such immediate repositioning while having complete access to all your options, which is why they are so good. Pivots are pivots and people have known how good they are for years, just consistently applying them in the right situations is hard. Crawls are a bit different, and are better for characters with low traction/a fast burst movement (think luigi/squirtle wd and samus SWD). If you have momentum moving forward, you crawl backwards for one frame and it shifts the momentum backwards, while still giving you complete access to all your moves as if you were just crouching/standing. Look up Luigi PM Wavescuttling, its not just a Luigi thing though and its incredibly easy to do. basically makes WD even more flexible (and for luigi when paired with how walk/dash interacts with his momentum during WD allows for incredible amounts of micro spacing ****, which is why its an end game sort of god like spacing tool but still not super fesable. I'm sure bamsey/Nausica has more to say about it, because he loves that ****). Diddy gets a little bit of spacing adjustment on WD forward>crawl backwards, I do use it occasionally. Crawling also allows you do to dtilts and dsmashes with an item in hand, so that only really effects Diddy in most situations, but also allows luigi/squirtle to do WD dsmash in MUs where catching items is a good thing (diddy/peach/rob, I guess the links somewhat) and lets ZSS do dsmash while holding and item, etc.

 

[Frost | Odds]

my bowser took a game off of zhime.

take notes @ Frost | Odds

I'll bet you real-life moneydollars that I 2-0 or 3-0 him the first time we meet.

Are you able to be unbiased about Ivysaur? How do you feel about her as a character, apart from the apocalyptic D3 matchup?

 

[Ripple]

I'll bet you real-life moneydollars that I 2-0 or 3-0 him the first time we meet.

Are you able to be unbiased about Ivysaur? How do you feel about her as a character, apart from the apocalyptic D3 matchup?

so....what youre saying, is that you haven't taken a game off of him yet? hmmm...


also, no. because I only play heavies. and she destroys them all. Bair is the bane of my existence. and I find nair to be stupid. I can't tell which way its going to send me half the time AND it kills if I miss the DI around 130

 

[Player -0]

inb4 Odds gets salty about Zelda after

@ Nausicaa I thought you were going to read the changelist. Uhhh. TLink's & Link's Nair were changed and I'm sad?

 

[PlateProp]

How to beat Zelda 101:

>be squirtle
>be depressed about life an ****, becuz squirtle
>start game
>dont approach
>wait for din's fire
>put that **** out with watergun like the firefighter you always dreamed of being
>giggle a bit becuz confused zelda
>use giggle to hide depression from playing squirtle

 

[Bazkip]

@ Bazkip liking my post doesn't answer the questions I have about this game

I had to leave as soon as a I finished reading your post so I couldn't have helped.

Softie answered most things but one thing he didn't touch on was QAC2 removal, that was because it made recovering on stage too safe.

 

[ELI-mination]

Ripple you win 1 friendly on NETPLAY and you go to smashboards and post you beat Zhime LOLLLL (you're probably joking....hopefully)

Odds, I guarantee you will lose to Zhime very very badly

You guys are straight up delusional
like
are you kidding me

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

lol @ Odds. How can you be that dumb?

 

[4tlas]

I think Odds is trying to point out that Bowser does well against Zelda, yes? Otherwise I can't imagine him being THAT cocky.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ Frost | Odds gonna have to say I think bowser is better at the ROB MU than ganon
I know this has to make you boil inside
both obviously suffer from being too slow to prevent ROB from getting gyro out, but bowser's dash attack can basically stuff anything ROB does, including glide tosses, boost fairs, WD back/dash back laser for spacing, etc, and means ROB has to shield to hold position or dash away, ganon can't force him to do the same thing
Bowser also edgeguards ROB better (read: actually edgeguards ROB, not even sure that ganon can do that reliably). Both suffer if ROB gets his hands on them so both are imo losing matchups, but bowser can actually threaten ROB in neutral when ganon really only has float/DJ/waveland mix-ups that ROB can just ignore by using that time to grab a gyro or limit one of the landing options with a laser then DD grabbing the other. Ganon doesn't even have flame cancel, which bowser can use to basically force ROB to deal with a mix-up trying to punish his landing

 

[DrinkingFood]

7 hours later so I'm gonna double post to say to say holy ****, olimar is cancer
I'm playing this character and I'm like
forcing people to approach and stopping them from approaching with the same move
like I know most of them have no MU exp
but pikmin throw is like sheik's melee needles and fox's melee lasers rolled into one move, it's ****ing bonkers, it deals chip damage, is low commitment, can use different arcs, sometimes has hitstun, almost always stops projectiles so you can't even like counter camp him
On top of that he's a small character and with strong quick disjoint
And then sometimes you get 3 purples, you're basically a god at that point, especially if you have like 3 purples and a white/blue, 2 purples and two other good colors might be better, not sure
but other times you get like, 4 not-purples and you're just like... why am I playing this character
****ing RNG ruins what could be a badly designed but at least consistently good character
it's fun to play as but man, I can see why people hated this character in brawl

 

[nimigoha]

Just whip out blue Pikmin and pivot grab everything. It's hilarious.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Location: Queens

Location: Brooklyn

I see.

I think Odds is trying to point out that Bowser does well against Zelda, yes? Otherwise I can't imagine him being THAT cocky.

I don't think it's a terrible matchup, but I could be wrong.

7 hours later so I'm gonna double post to say to say holy ****, olimar is cancer
I'm playing this character and I'm like
forcing people to approach and stopping them from approaching with the same move

This is just way too rich.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Olimar spawns with his gyros, bruh
I know that's what you're getting at
but olimar spawns with 4 gyros
he doesn't have air dashes
but he spawns with FOUR ****ING GYROS


EDIT: check'em, trips mean truth

 

[steelguttey]

7 hours later so I'm gonna double post to say to say holy ****, olimar is cancer
I'm playing this character and I'm like
forcing people to approach and stopping them from approaching with the same move
like I know most of them have no MU exp
but pikmin throw is like sheik's melee needles and fox's melee lasers rolled into one move, it's ****ing bonkers, it deals chip damage, is low commitment, can use different arcs, sometimes has hitstun, almost always stops projectiles so you can't even like counter camp him
On top of that he's a small character and with strong quick disjoint
And then sometimes you get 3 purples, you're basically a god at that point, especially if you have like 3 purples and a white/blue, 2 purples and two other good colors might be better, not sure
but other times you get like, 4 not-purples and you're just like... why am I playing this character
****ing RNG ruins what could be a badly designed but at least consistently good character
it's fun to play as but man, I can see why people hated this character in brawl

jesus christ finally someone has seen the light

side b is stupid but fsmash is easier to compare to shiek needles. theyre so good at edgeguarding for no reason. they fall so goddamn slowly

hes just always gonna lose to swords sadly

EDIT: also you can waveland and fastfall side b for even less commitment

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

7 hours later so I'm gonna double post to say to say holy ****, olimar is cancer
I'm playing this character and I'm like
forcing people to approach and stopping them from approaching with the same move
like I know most of them have no MU exp
but pikmin throw is like sheik's melee needles and fox's melee lasers rolled into one move, it's ****ing bonkers, it deals chip damage, is low commitment, can use different arcs, sometimes has hitstun, almost always stops projectiles so you can't even like counter camp him
On top of that he's a small character and with strong quick disjoint
And then sometimes you get 3 purples, you're basically a god at that point, especially if you have like 3 purples and a white/blue, 2 purples and two other good colors might be better, not sure
but other times you get like, 4 not-purples and you're just like... why am I playing this character
****ing RNG ruins what could be a badly designed but at least consistently good character
it's fun to play as but man, I can see why people hated this character in brawl

Project M: Olimar Uprising
>when?

 

[AceGamer]

Project M: Olimar Uprising

Lmao that should be the title for 3.6 X'D

 

[D e l t a]

As a past Brawl Olimar main, there is virtually no comparison between PM and Brawl Oli. This may be why I think the character is complete a** as soon as 3.0 released. Considering you have 2 less Pikmin, there's way more end lag on SideB throw, the health on them is lessened, and knockback of purples is reduced / can be CC'd. His auto combos are super good and equivalent to Brawl Oli's low % combos to 30-50%. Other than that, Oli's range and speed of every ground move in PM feels like I'm running through water.

He's still good, but unlike Brawl Oli, lacks an answer to heavy pressure. They also both die at stupid early %'s and have terrible recoveries in respect to the other cast members of their respective game.

 

[steelguttey]

why does the comparisons to brawlimar matter

hes still good regardless of not being stupid like before

 

[GabPR]

2 Blues and 2 purples, that's all you will ever need to succeed.

 

[steelguttey]

lineups are very matchup dependant but generally

2 purples is almost always nice, except in gimp matchups like rob where you just gotta play lame and campy

i dont like having 2 blues, just cus one blue is enough to get a throw or whatever you want to do with a blue

my favorite lineup is purple/purple/white/blue

 

[Boiko]

I see.

We all play together. If you call out any NY player, especially FS, you're gonna get some serious **** talk.

 

[didds]

Olimar never picks the black pikmin
I can't play a character like that

 

[robosteven]

why does the comparisons to brawlimar matter

because the character had a moveset in a different game so the PMDT isn't completely working from the ground up, also to compare with things that worked and didn't work in terms of jank and good design (which all in all still haven't really been addressed)

christ steel get it together

edit: guys, should I make a draft of a potential changelist for Olimar or would it not even matter

 

[steelguttey]

because the character had a moveset in a different game so the PMDT isn't completely working from the ground up, also to compare with things that worked and didn't work in terms of jank and good design (which all in all still haven't really been addressed)

christ steel get it together

who the **** cares about brawlimar, pm olimar is a completely different character. nobody compares bowser to melee bowser even though pm bowser is just an extremely buffed melee bowser.

it doesnt matter at all lmao

 

[robosteven]

nobody compares bowser to melee bowser even though pm bowser is just an extremely buffed melee bowser.

wh

you just said that it doesn't matter and then literally went out of your way to explain exactly why it matters

c'mon dude

 

[steelguttey]

why do previous version matters if we want to be our own game

we arent project melee or project brawl, were a mod that takes the best of both worlds, were ****ing hannah montana up in this *****

of course were going to remove jank from brawl but theres no reason to talk about brawl because its not part of this game