Tier List Speculation

[Rᴏb]

I'd love to read a dialogue where ROB-haters actually address DF's points. I've been lurking this thread for weeks and it just never happens.

@ DrinkingFood I think it would be really interesting if you were to make a proposed changelist for 3.6 similar to how Odds made one for Bowser. I feel like you're one of the only people with a good enough understanding of the character to know what should be changed, nerfed or scrapped while still maintaining ROB's archetype. I feel like whoever is designing ROB in the PMDT could use some guidance as well.

 

[Daftatt]

Except it moves him further, with invinc, in any direction?
To me, that's better than ROB's. ROB can't go down except the old fashioned way

Mewtwos is better for sure IF they pick the correct angle to regain stage control, I would say teleport as a combo breaker is very difficult to use effectively and consistently. There are only a few safe positions to teleport to from air to ground where you'll be safe by either landing immediately or by going in the opposite direction that your opponent commits to during their followup. I've definitely seen this baited by the opponent who feints going for a followup and instead gets a much nastier punish by fading back towards centerstage landing a brutal hit on Mewtwo when he pops out of teleport (B-reversal is still a 3? frame window for mewtwo to get out though). Reading his teleport habits has been the staple strategy against mewtwo as soon as 3.0 came out and it really does add a ton of risk to mewtwo using teleport defensively, turns it more into a tech chase situation.

Boost up isn't a real option, it just gets him higher and wastes a boost when the goal is to get out of the juggle.

I disagree, boost is as much a real option as doublejumping is to escape from juggles, the goal is to escape the followup and then land, it may be very risky but it's a good answer to the opponent choosing a heavy commitment option for an aerial because it can pull you up above their threat range while still having time to make it down to the ground.

On tri-plat stages I can definitely understand never using boost up to escape from juggles, it's definitely bad on those stages just like doublejumping.

 

[Foo]

Actually it's **** aerial mobility and no easy way to come down (lolvanishendlag). She gets juggled absurdly hard.

Idk, she has a frame 3 nair that hits pretty far below her and an insanely high priority and really fast fair to quickly break free of combos. I'd say she gets juggled harder than average, but that's as far as I would go. I don't consider something a weakness unless it's bottom 10. I mean, her aerial mobility is dead center average. Her running jump speed is also dead center average. (I assume you guys are talking about her max air speed, which is actually bad)

Her poor aerial mobility makes her forced to play a heavy ground game (although RAR bair helps a lot with this) and she has a terrible recovery. She's also susceptible to dash dance abuse and CC but good sheik players can usually work around these.

Hard to call having to play a heavy ground game a weakness when her ground game is outstanding, if not the best in the game. Pretty much all characters are susceptible to cc and sheik is far from especially weak to it, her needles work wonders against a dash dancing and her recovery is no where near terrible, it's about average. Having that much distance with full invincibility is pretty friggin good. When you can force her onstage, it's often a 50-50 mixup and you can't actually kill her when you force her to land on stage if you don't have a tool like marth fsmash, fox upsmash, rest, peach dsmash, ledgehop knee, etc.


I really don't see these things being weaknesses just because they aren't outstanding like the rest of her stuff. The closest thing to a weakness I can see if her max air speed being really bad, but that really isn't a big deal and I wouldn't call it a fully fledged weakness.

I've also heard stuff like bad approaches and shield pressure, but she's also at least slightly above average at both of those things.

 

[Life]

IEveryone is and should be obnoxious in their own special way. If there isn't someone out there salty about your character it's not well designed.

You might finally supplant Kish in my signature. Well done.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mewtwos is better for sure IF they pick the correct angle to regain stage control, I would say teleport as a combo breaker is very difficult to use effectively and consistently. There are only a few safe positions to teleport to from air to ground where you'll be safe by either landing immediately or by going in the opposite direction that your opponent commits to during their followup. I've definitely seen this baited by the opponent who feints going for a followup and instead gets a much nastier punish by fading back towards centerstage landing a brutal hit on Mewtwo when he pops out of teleport (B-reversal is still a 3? frame window for mewtwo to get out though). Reading his teleport habits has been the staple strategy against mewtwo as soon as 3.0 came out and it really does add a ton of risk to mewtwo using teleport defensively, turns it more into a tech chase situation.

You don't have to teleport to just above the ground to escape combos any more than ROB has to boost to just above the ground to do the same. You only have to change position. If your opponent commits to extending the combo when you do this, tada, you're out of the combo and probably even have an advantage on them. They could also try to read the teleport. But platforms are a thing, you generally have more than one good option for a teleport location. And then there's the do nothing option, or the fair/DJC fair option, or just hover stall, or one of many combinations of all these. If your opponent reads for a teleport and you just fall instead, you're out of the combo. Do you think ROB's boosts can't be baited and punished? That's one of the major reasons I lost to sethlon so badly at aftershock. My failing was not using the do nothing option enough. But I know enough to recognize that's (part of) the problem. Of course MewTwo's teleport can be baited, as can ROB's boosts, but baiting isn't exactly a reliable tactic because it can lead to counter-baiting or simply lost opportunities against players who mix-up well for players who rely on baits as opposed to good option coverage.

I disagree, boost is as much a real option as doublejumping is to escape from juggles, the goal is to escape the followup and then land, it may be very risky but it's a good answer to the opponent choosing a heavy commitment option for an aerial because it can pull you up above their threat range while still having time to make it down to the ground.
On tri-plat stages I can definitely understand never using boost up to escape from juggles, it's definitely bad on those stages just like doublejumping.

Assuming you meant to say boost up, as that is what I was talking about, it's not really. Up Boosts aren't like double jumps because they have start-up (5 frames), don't travel very far in the next few frames (double jumps move quickest initially for most characters), then travel quickest in the middle, then have an ending animation. You can't boost up to the left or the right as you can with jumps to quickly shift your position, you either go straight up or you interrupt with an aerial and use ROB's really really bad aerial drifting to shift slightly. Platforms complicate this further because interrupting with the aerial can cause landing lag once you land. Generally when you boost to the side you're trying to make space then get down to the ground by canceling into a FF aerial. Upward boosts, no matter how early you interrupt them, don't give you enough horizontal drift and stall you further above your opponent while giving them more time to land and recover from whatever follow-up they attempted. Any time I ever boost upward out of a combo, it's an accident I regret almost instantly.

 

[NW_Gump]

I was rewatching some IaB's and in IaB37, Hamyojo beat Strongbad and one of the things I saw him utilizing a lot (besides full hop Bair into DJC Nair) was that Grab parry window at the beginning of Yoshi's shield animation. I'm wondering if that grab parry plays a big role in yoshi as a character and his current standing in the tier lists of smash boards. Anyone have some thoughts about this or Yoshi in general? Maybe why we barely see any at all even though he's placed moderately high on most smashers lists (Similar to samus, higher tier, lack of representation)? Just my rambling questions

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'd love to read a dialogue where ROB-haters actually address DF's points. I've been lurking this thread for weeks and it just never happens.

@ DrinkingFood I think it would be really interesting if you were to make a proposed changelist for 3.6 similar to how Odds made one for Bowser. I feel like you're one of the only people with a good enough understanding of the character to know what should be changed, nerfed or scrapped while still maintaining ROB's archetype. I feel like whoever is designing ROB in the PMDT could use some guidance as well.

Well my (potential) change list wouldn't really be balance inspired as much design inspired. It's more along the lines of make him focus slightly less on CC and gyro for neutral and less focus on dthrow being guaranteed at 0 for follow-ups. The thing is, it comes down to possibly being excessive changes, it depends entirely on what PMDT thinks about his current build. Idk how many of them straight hate ROB's current working and how many of them just think it's one or two design flaws such as fall speed or w/e.

These should really be taken with a grain of salt, considering I haven't tested them out, I'd like to, but idk how to edit this kind of stuff for personal test files or anything.

Spoiler

Obv his ability to violate punishments is really salt inducing, he's probably the best at it perhaps alongside a few other characters like Yoshi/M2 imo but I'm not really here to talk about them. So him being faster falling isn't a bad change, but I would like that if it's done, his jumps be retouched so he can still do stuff like SH double fair, full hop gyro shot->catch gyro. Give him the same airtime I guess for those.

I'd make his throws less centralized on dthrow (less BKB so it can't combo at 0, more KBG so it also combos for less percent, but also so it kills later than current uthrow) and slightly worse in general (fthrow/bthrow much slower so that you can react to the grab+throw, but one of them mixes up with a reworked dthrow or uthrow, not sure, all of them being weight dependent) but improve his ability to get a raw grab (I've been wanting a boost grab for the longest time, idk why he doesn't have one when his dash attack canceled into an upsmash gets him momentum while canceling into grab on the same frame gets no extra momentum).

So basically since he couldn't dthrow combo at low/0 percent, he'd have to uthrow for a combo or bthrow for positioning, with them being a DI mix-up where bthrow has current angle but good DI for uthrow sends you further out on bthrow and good DI to not get sent far on bthrow gets you uthrow combo'd. Uthrow I guess would be a quick toss upwards, with a fair bit of endlag, so that the only way you get a combo out of it is if they don't DI/DI in for the bthrow. Or uthrow could DI mix-up with fthrow. It makes a difference depending on where you want ROB to be highly advantaged on the mix-up in relation to where he grabs the opponent. The uthrow would probs be like 75 degrees, meaning DI in puts you straight above him, DI out is like ~60 degrees depending on how precisely they DI. So the uthrow ends up having something like current dthrow's knockback scaling, but a higher release point, more endlag, and a steeper angle. Alternatively current uthrow could be reworked to be the combo throw that doesn't work at 0 or mid-high percent, with dthrow being the new throw that's quick and mixes up with fthrow or bthrow.

Next, gyro has increased gravity and throws with less speed. Its KB scaling would be compensated for its loss in speed so KB remains the same, but it becomes less of the cross-stage pressure tool it currently is, since it would only go a bit more than half as far. I think everyone benefits, including ROB mains, if ROB focuses less on gyro to dominate and gets something else in return. Part of it was the boost grab. This also isn't totally a nerf, as increase gravity+reduced speed on gyro means he can cover some edgeguard angles that previously he needed a charged gyro shot to do before. The gravity increase also coincides with his own gravity increase so that he can do a lot of the same gyro tricks he could before.

Dair landing hitbox and an aerial that auto cancels like the first 3-4 frames of its animation. Bear with me. Dair's hitbox would be super weak with low knockback scaling. Dair currently has this weird autocancel hitbox to where he never gets landing lag if the hitbox comes out (except for the first frame which is clearly unintentional and should be fixed as part of this suggestion). There's really not even a use for the dair landing animation, so this idea came out initially to give him that. Anyway, the hitbox is weak enough to jab reset at low percents, but nothing else, and you only get it if you land before. Bumping up the landing lag of dair to 40/20 landing/lcancel'd means the only time you get a good follow-up from this is if you use it for the reset on a knockdown, OR they are high percent enough for the low KBG to get them enough hitstun. Obv it would be unsafe on shield. It could be a meteor or not; if it's a meteor, you get a follow up once they pass the percent threshold for ~24 frames hitstun, if not a meteor you only get a guaranteed follow-up between 24-31 frames hitstun if they don't CC, and after that it causes knockdown if they CC or pops up for a combo, which would be like, 100+ damage. The early autocancel on one of his aerials (doesn't really matter which so long as it's not dair) is early enough that he can only really use it if he boosts very close to the ground. It can't be auto-canceled late enough to be used for SH->boost->auto cancel at any distance, instead it has niche uses in platform movement, being able to boost onto a platform and land in place with less lag then a waveland usually would, and at an earlier time.

Dsmash is a move I've wanted reworked for awhile but haven't totally nailed down. A lot of people think it's good, and it is, but for the wrong reason. I played anther on netplay the other day. He was ASDI'ing up out of my dsmashes more than half the time, on netplay. The move becomes way worse when you do that, as you can just kinda escape with like 8 damage an no follow-up. Far as I know fox is the only exception to this, he can't escape at most percents without hard SDI. It's still good for tech chasing tho, since invinc usually makes them miss the first hit or two which helps them escape the launcher. But I don't think it's really smart design for a move to be so apparently amazing at low level since it kinda skews the perception of the viability of the move, then mediocre at high level where you have to really catch someone slipping up to get off CC dsmash. Anyway this change I could leave or take, I can't figure out how to fix the move without really making it stupidly good or bad or just changing it to a different move. But the idea is that the range and speed of it is reduced, making it harder to actually use for CCing since it loses to good spacing and low endlag more frequently, but give him more reward for landing it even if they escape with ASDI. So the first hitbox is moved back from frame 5 to 6 or 7, and instead of having his arms fully extended, they are bent upward, as with his charging animation. This would actually be a pre-charge start-up hitbox, with a weak inward meteor or spike trajectory, that helps set-up the placement of the move more consistently. The reasoning for this is that with the way the hitboxes are currently set-up, there are weird differences in when the launcher hitbox can connect on ASDI up based on really specific spacing. It's part of my issue with the current design. This start-up hitbox basically means, if you hit it, they're always in a certain range of of locations for the rest of the multi hits+launcher unless they try to DI side-ways, which prevents ASDI up to escape. The start-up hitbox would be the first of the multi hits, so he's down to 3 multi hits and the launcher. The multi hits all have current range, with the first one being frame 9 or 10, and have an increased SDI/ASDI multiplier so that you can still escape by holding up; however they also have increased knockback such that if you're near an edge when you ASDI out, you get sent off at their low, harsh angle (the current KB on the multi hits is low so you just kinda pop up a bit when you ASDI out, but at high percents you can see the low 15 degree angle they send at), and if you're mid stage, you get sent closer to the edge behind ROB with minor frame disadvantage (as opposed to frame ADVANTAGE which you currently have on ROB at most percents for ASDIing out). Lastly a change to the launcher to make it akin to over-the-should angles on other quick dsmashes like peach's or samus's, instead of outward. This is largely to compound its utility as a reversal tool, making it more threatening near the ledge but less so center stage. The endlag+base knockback would be increased to compensate for the new angle, meaning follow-ups would be about as likely as they are now with various angles of DI, since over the shoulder angles mean part of their travel distance they are getting closer to you and thus are easier to combo given everything else is the same. The increased knockback also means they wouldn't be able to CC tech the move anymore (currently this can be done at low percents) which is another thing that makes it fake-good, and instead means they have to rely on escaping upwards.
-TL;DR dsmash is slower with less reach on start-up, more endlag, but better if you get the hit and better if they ASDI out.

Also some minor quality of life buffs/fixes:
Fsmash hitbox lasts more than 2 frames. The ****ing animation looks like it lasts 9 frames. It doesn't need to last that whole duration but jesus ****
Upsmash launcher hits aerial opponents. It's stupid that it doesn't currently. It's already fake-good as an OoS option since you can CC/ASDI to knockdown the launcher to infinity, or ASDI+DI away and never get sent into the strong hit, but it also just straight misses airborne opponents period.
Fix upair GFX, it has four blasts but only 3 hitboxes.
Fix side-b gfx, you can't even tell when the hitbox ends
Make laser hitbox work like falco's in that it repeats a couple times across part of the length of the laser. Right now it's literally trying to hit stuff with a pea sized hitbox that stretches to maybe ROB's width, yet the laser graphics are like as long as FD. obv the hitbox doesn't need to be as long as FD, but maybe like two ROB's widths like falco's lasers are.
Can we please get some cool new animations too, all these ones I'm seeing on reddit are making me jealous


So overall, the tl;dr is
Fall speed increased so punishing him isn't quite as absurdly hard, but jumps reworked to compensate for when he's free to move
Very low percents and high percents, he gets nothing guaranteed off throws but has a good mix-up
Mid percents he still gets free follow-ups tho
His kill throw kills later (currently 120-180 depending on fall speed, should be more like 140 min-idk max), encouraging more mix-up and throwing for position at very high percent
But he gets a slightly easier time landing raw grabs
Gyro doesn't control the whole stage when its in ROB's hand, basically reduced throw distance much like Link/Tink saw for 3.5
Dair gets a new utility for knockdown resets, and kinda helps fill the high percent punishment gap left by old dthrow
Dsmash is harder to hit but more consistent and rewarding when it does

Alrighty, that's it, go ahead and crucify me. Keep in mind I haven't tested these yet. It's a lot of theory and understanding of game mechanics that went into these thoughts.

 

[Deleted member]

Rob is actually a really simple character to fix, I made a build where he has similar fall speed to ike/slightly less weight and he becomes x100000 more realistic

having good normals/throws is usually OK if the character is also honest, and the only not honest part about him is his lack of dying/being combo'd. There are also issues with Gyro and Grounded side b invalidates 90% of other projectiles, but the main problem is just his fall speed.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Gyro invalidates projectiles a lot yeah, but I feel side-b is less amazing at that than you preach.
It's pretty slow overall and you can't do it in place, only moving forward, so anytime you reflect a projectile that either goes over their head (boomerangs, fireballs, high lasers, yoshi's eggs, some others) or doesn't go far enough (razor leaf, others depending on distance) to hit them or maybe you didn't reflect it at all because it has a hurtbox and sometimes side-b hits projectile hurtboxes instead of reflecting them (bombs, gyro itself), when that kind of stuff happens and you didn't also hit them with the side-b hitbox, you're opening yourself up for punishment, especially since you moved towards them closing the distance they normally would have to if they were to punish other reflection attempts.

Also keep in mind I didn't make that change list just in response to whether or not his viability is skewed, I made it to make him feel a little more interactive by asking him to play the game more like normal smash characters instead of forcing people to deal with the possibility of him getting gyro while also trying to avoid the risk of absurd CC->grab stuff->dthrow stuff at any percent or silly CC->absurd reach/speed dsmash->can you ASDI?->yes/no->useless/combo, stuff

@Lunchables, did your test build also include changing his fast fall speed in the same manner?

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah all I did was mess with his terminal velocity, aka his fall speed. His fast fall speed was the same. All you need to be able to do is combo rob, he has other stuff deserving of a nerf but like I've said for a while now his attributes are the biggest problem. (This also solves part of his recovery/landing issues, since he doesn't have enough time to stay in the air and drift for things)

Gyro and Grounded side b are BOTH really good at being anti-projectile, since the constant gyro just sits there and eats things while grounded side b reflects projectiles back + lets you convert off of it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah all I did was mess with his terminal velocity, aka his fall speed. His fast fall speed was the same. All you need to be able to do is combo rob, he has other stuff deserving of a nerf but like I've said for a while now his attributes are the biggest problem. (This also solves part of his recovery/landing issues, since he doesn't have enough time to stay in the air and drift for things)

Gyro and Grounded side b are BOTH really good at being anti-projectile, since the constant gyro just sits there and eats things while grounded side b reflects projectiles back + lets you convert off of it.

I know what terminal velocity is, as opposed to gravity, but the thing about not adjusting fast fall speed is that's not how smash works and would be unfair to ROB; generally characters have fast fall speeds that are higher than their fall speeds by a approx ratio. Fast falling speed increases are generally buffs, so overall it evens out kinda as a nerf+buff thing, but if you just tested him with increased fall speed only, you weren't really seeing the whole picture.

 

[Deleted member]

ROBs fast fall relative to the terminal velocity I gave him seems fine, It's not like 2.6 toon link where he legit didn't have a fast fall

Even if you were to buff his fast fall speed as well, it'd be the better change overall. Nerfing his normals instead of nerfing his attributes/specials means that the character becomes worse while still being toxic. Nerfing specials/attributes and keeping good normals = satisfying characters that still have to be interactive. Most pre-3.5 characters were based around specials/dumb attributes, and ROB is just a leftover.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Nerfing specials and keeping good normals is a good idea for balancing in the long run, but takes a bit from the fun factor people associate with their main. The pmdt cant main every character so community concensus and speculation does have some pull. With that being said, there is not a single character in 3.5 that should have a patch list sounding anything like the 3.0 example below. True there are still some traces of "jank", like a jc platform cancellable armored dash attack, but many non shiny things have been toned down already.

Example of last patch note summary: Up throw has extra endlag and no longer a kill throw. Up smash sdi multiplier increased, kills slightly later, and initial kb decreased to make it more suceptible to cc, with additional endlag(basically don't use it). Forward smash bkb reduced. Fair angle nerf and kb as well as kbg nerfed. Nair does 1% more damage buff. Side b 17 extra frames of lag. Up b recovery length and charge time cut in half. Down b cut in effectiveness by 1 from 2 , and tweaked to be worse in combos but better for edgeguarding, though will still interrupt your command grab.

 

[Boiko]

Far as I know fox is the only exception to this, he can't escape at most percents without hard SDI.

I've never had a problem SDIing out of ROB's dsmash with Fox, personally.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ DrinkingFood Grounded side B as a projectile reflector doesn't really help ROB very much in most matchups, but it's extremely oppressive in a few (Samus, Mewtwo, probably others) where the other character is fairly dependent on projectiles for establishing space in the neutral game.

 

[nimigoha]

@ DrinkingFood Grounded side B as a projectile reflector doesn't really help ROB very much in most matchups, but it's extremely oppressive in a few (Samus, Mewtwo, probably others) where the other character is fairly dependent on projectiles for establishing space in the neutral game.

Falco.

Not exactly dependant but it's a pretty big part of his neutral.

Although I suppose you could just shine after landing if you expect a side b. Which would reflect back to ROB who, depending on distance, may just reflect it again and by that time hit you.

Still weird though.

 

[Soupchicken]

Luigi is straight up broken. Ganon and G&W are a little too strong.

Regardless of where these three sit in the tier list:
- They are too easy to play
- They are not fun to play against
- They have too many hopelessly one-sided matchups (Luigi in particular invalidates half the cast)

Their few weaknesses are overstated by those who main them and the PM scene is small enough that they slip by unaddressed. I hope the changelog for 3.6 is lengthy; I'd be very disappointed to see these three make it through without any changes.

 

[steelguttey]

you just made about 7 statements without even saying one thing about the game or the characters youre mentioning

amazing

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Since when does Luigi of all people invalidate half the cast?
He's high/top tier in Smash 4, I'm seeing him a lot more in Melee, and now he's "broken" in PM? Are you guys sure the Year of Luigi isn't 2015?

 

[LupinX]

Why do Brawl casts get the end of the stick when it comes to patches and designs . I mean I understand game design, but why nerf them to the ground?

 

[MLGF]

Is this early 3.5 again?
Pretty sure most of the Brawl characters are doing fine right now.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Speaking of Brawl characters, what's the consensus on Ivysaur? I don't have a lot of expirience with him but I'm pretty sure his matchups with the spacies are what screw him over in the long run, right?

 

[steelguttey]

Speaking of Brawl characters, what's the consensus on Ivysaur?

tier list thread drinking game

drink rat poison every time someone does this with ivysaur

 

[BluntedMask]

Can't wait for this new patch to drop for Olimar, lost doubles in a tournament since pikmin arms don't reach that far ;_;.

Anyway, what are some bad match ups for Samus? It just seems like she is a super solid character in this build with the only glaring weakness is being super floaty. Can't really think of anyone that just straight up counters her save for Fox/Falco possibly.

 

[Ripple]

DDD counters her slightly. maybe even....

 

[robosteven]

Is this early 3.5 again?
Pretty sure most of the Brawl characters are doing fine right now.

 

[steelguttey]

it says you play pit now

stop that

 

[NachoOfCheese]

tier list thread drinking game

drink rat poison every time someone does this with ivysaur

Yo cut me some slack. I'm new.

 

[Deleted member]

i agree with @Lunchables rob is basically fine when you can actually do things back to him. i played it and it was good to play against the character, and i played as rob and his flavor was still pretty spot on

 

[Boiko]

Can't wait for this new patch to drop for Olimar, lost doubles in a tournament since pikmin arms don't reach that far ;_;.

Anyway, what are some bad match ups for Samus? It just seems like she is a super solid character in this build with the only glaring weakness is being super floaty. Can't really think of anyone that just straight up counters her save for Fox/Falco possibly.

Tink and ROB are her worst MUs.
Zelda and Lucas are pretty bad but not terrible.

 

[Bazkip]

Luigi is straight up broken. Ganon and G&W are a little too strong.

Regardless of where these three sit in the tier list:
- They are too easy to play
- They are not fun to play against
- They have too many hopelessly one-sided matchups (Luigi in particular invalidates half the cast)

Their few weaknesses are overstated by those who main them and the PM scene is small enough that they slip by unaddressed. I hope the changelog for 3.6 is lengthy; I'd be very disappointed to see these three make it through without any changes.

Ease of play is irrelevant past low level.
"Not fun to play against" is incredibly subjective, you need extensive explanation/examples to make a claim like that.
You third point is just blatantly false.

 

[Chevy]

Anyway, what are some bad match ups for Samus? It just seems like she is a super solid character in this build with the only glaring weakness is being super floaty. Can't really think of anyone that just straight up counters her save for Fox/Falco possibly.

Fire Emblem(Roy not as much), Legend of Zelda, R.O.B, Mewtwo are all bad. Also probably loses to to Mario and Shiek. Besides being super floaty and having all the weaknesses that come with that, she has a terrible grab, poor on shield game, and awful aerial mobility. She's also braindead easy to edgeguard if you ever get knocked too far away to screw attack back.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I think it would be more accurate to say ease of play starts becoming irrelevant around highish mid level of play. Gotta remember how mentally taxing it is to keep up with your tech skill on top of all the mental stuff going on between you and your opponent, plus character specific stuff and stage positioning. Not to mention the damage done to you mentally, when your opponent does what you do in half as many moves and half the work to execute.

Luigi isn't broken....does he have stupid **** that doesn't belong on any character, yeah, but he isn't broken. He's super underrated though, but he's too weird for there to be a surge of people picking him up and changing the meta.

Ganon is pretty easy to play, probably a little too easy, but that comes from mostly auto cancel forever nair (which is more than likely getting changed), and silly side b stuff. Though if you suck at smash you're still not getting to grand finals, you'll just beat a couple of people you shouldn't.

G&W's up b is stupid.

 

[nimigoha]

> Ganon

> not fun to play against

 

[Life]

> Ganon

> not fun to play against

It depends on the matchup. Characters who can challenge him head on and combo him hard are fun to play. Characters who have to bait and punish him are less fun in this matchup, because Ganon is expecting them to bait and punish him so it ends up with both players being super safe and not wanting to take risks.

 

[mimgrim]

> Ganon

> not fun to play against

Depends. In friendlies when just ****ing around he is fun to play against.

In an actual match (especially when you get screwed over the Ban stages first then cp character rule and get taken to a small stage because you didn't consider you opponent cping Ganon because of the already absurd amount of characters they play, really annoying) not so much.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Depends. In friendlies when just ****ing around he is fun to play against.

In an actual match (especially when you get screwed over the Ban stages first then cp character rule and get taken to a small stage because you didn't consider you opponent cping Ganon because of the already absurd amount of characters they play, really annoying) not so much.

Heaven forbid that a counterpick actually give an advantage to the person who lost the last match

 

[FreeGamer]

I think Ganon is fun to fight against, especially when I copy Warlock Punch and kill him with the move he no longer has. :3

 

[Narpas_sword]

Depends. In friendlies when just ****ing around he is fun to play against.

In an actual match (especially when you get screwed over the Ban stages first then cp character rule and get taken to a small stage because you didn't consider you opponent cping Ganon because of the already absurd amount of characters they play, really annoying) not so much.

Which is why characters should be selected before stages.

And before this thread throws out all the same arguments that get raised everytime this is mentioned:
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-recommended-ruleset.396408/page-6

 

[Nausicaa]

Vote for fun to play against?
+1 to people playing the chars.
I like peeps, they cute and stuff.




First impressions of 3.5 time. (I'm a little behind)




Ganon is nice in this game. Floats and side Bs and quicker attacks in utilt and nair (and etc etc) all allow him to actually GET SOMETHING out of the work he puts in.
He could always corner the crap out of others but couldn't actually HIT anyone once they were cornered unless he overexerted himself. Now he at least has some tricks and options regarding getting hits to connect on a cornered target without either dying or risking more than a reward could offer.
Every patch seems to help him here, and with much of the stuff keeping him down being bopped with nerf-bats a bit (pace-controllers) he's doing fine.

Luigi is overrated around here apparently based on the recent novelty people saw where all counter-play lacked to such an extent and nearly every wildandunecessaryrawgroundedupb thrown out and etc weren't punished at all.
Luigi is underrated on the other hand cause nobody seen shiz from his face to any extent yet worth mentioning, but glimpses help at least. Yallz aint know what's up at allz
But no, him and peach and pika must remain bad-tier because of rules I've heard a long time ago around here. No changing minds allowed. Forever the only competition with ooze for too op to make the list of character-competence know as tiers.

I donno why peeps would wanna play Ice Smamus when fire Smamus has the punch to the face and the dtilt of juicy. Seriously, Ice Samus is like weird and stuff. I like it sometimes for lulz though.
Do peeps actually use that at a decent level of play? Or doing the switcheroo with the 2?


Pace-control stuff
A few chars who were already fairly strong are seemingly WAY stronger than in previous patches because of the tone-down on pace-control.

Zamus got her dash-blasters gone, though the blaster is still good. Her grab was pace-control with that distance-threat too given her speed and range, but now it's more an extend and pressure tool than the opener or opportunistic tool it was before.
M2 obvs had his "shadowball-tp can't do stuff to him" shinans dealt with but he's still beast, that pace-control centralizing tool is mostly nulled though.
Kirby had a bit of pace-control silliness adjusted in a different way, but same idea.
And even to a milder extent are things like TLs bomb tossing and Samus Zair taking minor hits, and QA2 on pika and bacon on Gdubs.
Donno if Marioballs and stuff were tweaked, haven't played much yet and don't have the feels down extensively enough from previous patches to know for sure on some of these things, but wouldn't be surprised. Maybe patch notes sometime but not needed really, this game is cleanly done.

BUT THAT PACE-CONTROL

It all adds up to whoever was hindered PURELY by pace-control is gonna start coming up me thinks.
There's some ROB talk around here it seems, so apparently he's good, but this is basically the IDEAL SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES set-up to let people like Ike and Lucario on the loose. Nothing held them back but pace-control, and it seems to me that they should eventually be popping up and bop some of the cast pretty hard with the kind of turn-over 3.5 made to pacing.
All chars from like Falcon who enjoy to being limited or threatened from weird places, to solid chars like Roy and Bowser (that WD feels good) can actually MOVE and not be in danger because of this being toned down. Seems like they would all thrive in this time of update. The game was leaning to pace-control (Bananas and TPs), but the patch leaned it away, goodgood. Wouldn't be surprised to see any peeps like Wario and Squirt doing great too. Freedom to move and not get clipped unless they're fighting someone like Lucas or Fox who give no crap about your positioning or speed.

Oh and wtf is with the Wolf blaster speed and no nerfs, he was already busted beyond reason.

Just some thoughts. Donno if any of this is sensible because I've only picked up a controller 3 times since patch, but I'm getting back into the game (at least a bit) so yeah.

First impressions are how many months late? haha

Oh last thought.
Wtf happened to tethers I donno how to recover as like Oli or Ivy anymore.
Is there some trick to recovering with a tether to not have so much lag? I can't even drop from hanging anymore. Some button or something? Or did that just get nerfed really hard?

Oh and DACUS seems easy as crap with everyone.
ICs have a weird thing where I can't go the direction I want.
Zelda's Side-B is hilarious and I don't know what to do with it yet.
Pit feels like a new character entirely.
Bowser can move and stuff.
Yoshi is still busted.
Crawling and pivots are still busted.
Sonic feels more proper than ever, like Pit in a different way.
Game feels good in general.
Donno why a few things were changed (Zamus grab and Pika QA2) due to the counter-play to them still growing and generally being fun and quirky in the game without breaking the characters in a too-good or too-bad way. Things like PK Fire and Samus Zairofdeath makes sense, so I guess keeping everything leaning in that null-pace-control direction is sensible even if minor. It's cool though.
I'm glad the more popularly busted chars got bopped with nerf-bats, but I'll simply say...
You missed a few spots.

Good game is good.