Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

re: fox and sheik matchups

doesn't rob beat both?

ROB beats fox, loses to sheik

 

[steelguttey]

Olimar is good tho

Steelgutley/robosteven are just like Lucario players who think Lucario has a **** neutral

Only legit problem is his up b

edit: /s before I die

the thing is i agree

he would be mid tier if he had the jetpack now

 

[Blazing Ambition]

In all honesty, I wouldn't mind falcon getting nerfed. One character shouldn't have shiek's d-throw in conjunction with a run speed faster than Fox, and have throws that combo directly into an 18% aerial finisher with no sourspot that is also safe on shield.
He's also a really heavy fast-faller so
Whenever you're recovering with Falcon the logic is:

Oh no I got hit
Better DI up
Just Falcon kick until you're close to the stage
Ok imma up-b
Oh shoot he grabbed ledge
Lemme pretend that I'm going for the stage
Then i'll fade back to the ledge like a cool guy
oh wait he just stayed on the ledge
rip

But I'm not blind to his strengths either. He's got crazy mobility on the ground with his great DD, great air speed and (IMO) the best U-air in the game. (I don't get how ZSS's nair was too much when Falcon's nair/uair did practically the same thing but whatever balance I suppose) He converts grabs and stray aerials into stocks really easily, which is problematic considering how easy it is for him to get in on most characters.
I'm not sure how to tweak falcon in a way that would make his throws less braindead or his aerials less overwhelming for certain characters (playing wario vs falcon is actually depressing) without destroying him as a characters, but the kbg on up/down throw need to be changed.
Maybe less damage on certain aerials like nair/uair/knee so nair to knee doesn't kill at like 70
Or I guess you could just make him slower
There's a novel idea

 

[PlateProp]

the thing is i agree

he would be mid tier if he had the jetpack now

Enjoy your knee jerk 3.6 buffs

I'll just be sitting in the corner lamenting

 

[LupinX]

How do you balance the melee vets without hurting their playstyle?

 

[steelguttey]

Enjoy your knee jerk 3.6 buffs

I'll just be sitting in the corner lamenting

its been 2 ****ing patches of him being like this

knee jerk my ****

 

[PlateProp]

its been 2 ****ing patches of him being like this

knee jerk my ****

Dont act like you dont remember usmash> usmash> usmash > usmash

 

[JOE!]

Dont act like you dont remember usmash> usmash> usmash > usmash

?

 

[CORY]

How do you balance the melee vets without hurting their playstyle?

Probably toning down damage overall would be a good place to start. Especially on the really fast ones.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

The group of characters who i hate are the ones who have sheiks downthrow, they always get on my nerves. It's like "Oh I got a grab, HERE'S MY FREE FOLLOW UP"

Although i hate those characters, i really have a problem with the characters that have Fox's up smash. Its like once you're at that percent its just dash dance until you do something and BAM that's your stock.

Don't even get me started on the characters who have Marths grab range. Oh lets throw out logic and just give everyone the power of the force, oh lets make Darth Vader a playable character while we're at it.

Also I really have a problem with those characters who have falcon's stomp combo's. Down air into years worth of hitstun, just enough time for you to hit them with your amazing finisher, so much skill.

And real talk those characters who have jigglypuff's rest are so corny. Oh cool I have this near 1 hit ko move that is supposedly "difficult" to land. So fair...

I think the biggest problems with project m are those characters who have Falco's shield pressure though, lets just completely invalidate shields, after all they're just gonna break/poke it before you can do anything.

Then there's those characters with peach's downsmash. Oh i hit you, looks like you crouch cancelled it and im now taking hella damage...

 

[Narpas_sword]

The group of characters who i hate are the ones who have sheiks downthrow, they always get on my nerves. It's like "Oh I got a grab, HERE'S MY FREE FOLLOW UP"

Although i hate those characters, i really have a problem with the characters that have Fox's up smash. Its like once you're at that percent its just dash dance until you do something and BAM that's your stock.

Don't even get me started on the characters who have Marths grab range. Oh lets throw out logic and just give everyone the power of the force, oh lets make Darth Vader a playable character while we're at it.

Also I really have a problem with those characters who have falcon's stomp combo's. Down air into years worth of hitstun, just enough time for you to hit them with your amazing finisher, so much skill.

And real talk those characters who have jigglypuff's rest are so corny. Oh cool I have this near 1 hit ko move that is supposedly "difficult" to land. So fair...

I think the biggest problems with project m are those characters who have Falco's shield pressure though, lets just completely invalidate shields, after all they're just gonna break/poke it before you can do anything.

Then there's those characters with peach's downsmash. Oh i hit you, looks like you crouch cancelled it and im now taking hella damage...

So, you're ok with samus?
Right?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

The group of characters who i hate are the ones who have sheiks downthrow, they always get on my nerves. It's like "Oh I got a grab, HERE'S MY FREE FOLLOW UP"

Although i hate those characters, i really have a problem with the characters that have Fox's up smash. Its like once you're at that percent its just dash dance until you do something and BAM that's your stock.

Don't even get me started on the characters who have Marths grab range. Oh lets throw out logic and just give everyone the power of the force, oh lets make Darth Vader a playable character while we're at it.

Also I really have a problem with those characters who have falcon's stomp combo's. Down air into years worth of hitstun, just enough time for you to hit them with your amazing finisher, so much skill.

And real talk those characters who have jigglypuff's rest are so corny. Oh cool I have this near 1 hit ko move that is supposedly "difficult" to land. So fair...

I think the biggest problems with project m are those characters who have Falco's shield pressure though, lets just completely invalidate shields, after all they're just gonna break/poke it before you can do anything.

Then there's those characters with peach's downsmash. Oh i hit you, looks like you crouch cancelled it and im now taking hella damage...

Yup Melee 's "good" characters are full of dumb stuff.

Not only does crouch cancelling take no tech skill to do (you literally just hold down and mash, it's nothing like a traditional fighting game parry) but when a character like Peach has a such good one...you can easily be taking 50% or more...for successfully hitting her.

Let me reiterate. You the attacker just lost half your life or more for successfully landing a hit on your opponent.

But nah this was in Melee so it's fair and balanced and totally healthy for the meta. But Diddy having two bananas that can also be used against him AND teched? No way that totally breaks the game!

PM has no Melee bias at all guys! Promise!

 

[Narpas_sword]

Dude, you're being a tit...

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Yup Melee 's "good" characters are full of dumb stuff.

Not only does crouch cancelling take no tech skill to do (you literally just hold down and mash, it's nothing like a traditional fighting game parry) but when a character like Peach has a such good one...you can easily be taking 50% or more...for successfully hitting her.

Let me reiterate. You the attacker just lost half your life or more for successfully landing a hit on your opponent.

But nah this was in Melee so it's fair and balanced and totally healthy for the meta. But Diddy having two bananas that can also be used against him AND teched? No way that totally breaks the game!

PM has no Melee bias at all guys! Promise!

Agreed man but you dont want me to get started on those brawl characters. Maaaaaaan i swear every brawl character is just a literal gimmick.

Oh look at me im olimar, and i dont ****ing work!

Hi Im bowser, you can only grab me!

Hey guys DDD here, I can kill you with one back throw.

Wow there goes Luigi again, slidin all over the place


I could go on and on, but i get tired of talking about this game. literally every character is ridiculous. I wish they would just normalize everyone, imo it would make each character more unique.

not only that, but normalization would definitely set pm apart from the other smash games!

 

[JustSomeScrub]

So, you're ok with samus?
Right?

The only dumb thing about Samus is that a lot of regular true combos won't work on her. But her being so slow and floaty in the air and not being able to combo and followup that well herself either makes up for this. So I'd say she's fair and balanced even as she is now.

 

[JOE!]

You realize they are Melee and 64 characters, yes?

 

[Sardonyx]

Honestly the only thing that's keeping peach's down smash in PM the way it is is the fact that all you have to do is hold up to get out of it for the most part, though I do agree that taking that much damage is a bit much.

If her down smash were to change I would make the maximum damage lower (about 35%), but make the first hit do a bit more damage so that it's still a good move (maybe 16-17%) and still function the same way with KB compensated so the move still hits as hard as beforehand. I think that's pretty reasonable, coming from a Peach main.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

PM should stop employing double standards, that is the point I think we all are trying to get at. As someone eloquently put it the Melee top tiers seem to be playing a different game from everyone else. That is to say something that would be and has been considered completely broken in the past on a Brawl character and nerfed is given a free pass "because it was in Melee".

For instance, going back to Lucario, people are insisting he needs major nerfs because he doesn't follow the same rules as everyone else with things like ASC. And that's a fair argument. But the exact same argument could be applied to Fox/Falco's shine, Peach's CC downSmash, Falcon's up throw/stomp knees and so forth.

 

[JOE!]

Honestly the only thing that's keeping peach's down smash in PM the way it is is the fact that all you have to do is hold up to get out of it for the most part, though I do agree that taking that much damage is a bit much.

If her down smash were to change I would make the maximum damage lower (about 35%), but make the first hit do a bit more damage so that it's still a good move (maybe 16-17%) and still function the same way with KB compensated so the move still hits as hard as beforehand. I think that's pretty reasonable, coming from a Peach main.

Yeah, the move isn't "busted" moreso it's just "goofy". Sure you can get out of it, but the point being it even has the POTENTIAL to do bonkers % is just... not right lol

 

[JustSomeScrub]

That's not the only issue with Peach either. Random turnups are bad and go against everything competitive play stands for. I have seen high level games/sets decided because Peach got lucky and pulled a stitch face or bomb (and she was losing significantly before this happened).

 

[Sardonyx]

That's not the only issue with Peach either. Random turnups are bad and go against everything competitive play stands for. I have seen high level games/sets decided because Peach got lucky and pulled a stitch face or bomb (and she was losing significantly before this happened).

I've also seen game and watches win matches because of getting a random 9, so by that logic, judgement hammer should be nerfed.

 

[steelguttey]

hammer isnt a projectile on a character with a neutral

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I've also seen game and watches win matches because of getting a random 9, so by that logic, judgement hammer should be nerfed.

It should. All luck based moves should be fixed. Instead all that's been done so far is increase your odds of getting a 9 (there's a way to tell if the next number is going to be even or odd and you can't get the last two numbers you got).

Edit:

But yes hammer doesn't have the versatility of use as Peach's turnups so that's definitely the bigger issue. But in all cases there's no logical basis for supporting these moves in a game that aims to be balanced and competitive.

 

[Sardonyx]

hammer isnt a projectile on a character with a neutral

I'll give you that. That is true, but stitch faces are less common than 9s (personal experience facing GnW with people at locals) and can kill earlier. With the turnip you can see if she has it and you can spot dodge, roll, air dodge, perfect shield easier since it is a projectile, and if peach is trying to approach with a FC move at the same time you can adapt and roll in a certain direction.

It should. All luck based moves should be fixed. Instead all that's been done so far is increase your odds of getting a 9 (there's a way to tell if the next number is going to be even or odd and you can't get the last two numbers you got).

I don't think luck based moves should be fixed. They help keep you on your toes because you know the threat is there. Not to mention turnip has been there since melee so people learn how to dodge it and deal with it. If peach has one, don't blindly approach her. If she's approaching you, watch out for the turnip.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Remember how I said just moments earlier people defend clearly broken things because they were in Melee?

"Not to mention turnip has been there since melee so people learn how to dodge it and deal with it."

Like right on cue.

Also:

1. Rolling/air dodging unless you meant on reaction is a horrible idea if you see them with a stitch face/bomb. That's like asking to get hit and giving it to them for free.

2. It works at high level play all the time when it's pulled. The argument that people have adapted goes right out the window. In some situations the hit is unavoidable and even if it was that's the beside the point.

It's a 100% luck based tactic that puts enormous pressure on your opponent you didn't earn and can lead to victory. That is absurd for a competitive game.

 

[CORY]

You realize they are Melee and 64 characters, yes?

Bowser and 64 don't go together. At least not in smash terms.

 

[Sardonyx]

I've seen

Remember how I said just moments earlier people defend clearly broken things because they were in Melee?

"Not to mention turnip has been there since melee so people learn how to dodge it and deal with it."

Like right on cue.

Also:

1. Rolling/air dodging unless you meant on reaction is a horrible idea if you see them with a stitch face/bomb. That's like asking to get hit and giving it to them for free.

2. It works at high level play all the time when it's pulled. The argument that people have adapted goes right out the window. In some situations the hit is unavoidable and even if it was that's the beside the point.

It's a 100% luck based tactic that puts enormous pressure on your opponent you didn't earn and can lead to victory. That is absurd for a competitive game.

"Like right on cue" I don't really get why you gotta be somewhat rude, but w/e. I've seen turnips miss more times than they've hit in competitive play because they rolled as it was thrown or the peach player simply miscalculated the throw itself. I'm not saying it's broken, nor that it's not broken, it's a bit iffy at times because it can give an unfair advantage in the rare chance that it actually gets pulled, but it won't always hit. If people can dodge her normal turnips, they can dodge a stitch face. Kinda like that if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a car thing.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

It doesn't matter how often it happens, the very fact that it has the possibility of deciding matches no matter how slim is what makes it absurd.

Take Brawl tripping for instance. There's only a 1% chance of it occurring every-time you initiate a dash. Does that make it fair? Why did they remove tripping in PM?

 

[Sardonyx]

It doesn't matter how often it happens, the very fact that it has the possibility of deciding matches no matter how slim is what makes it absurd.

Take Brawl tripping for instance. There's only a 1% chance of it occurring every-time you initiate a dash. Does that make it fair? Why did they remove tripping in PM?

Tripping was a stupid mechanic that made dash dancing very risky to do and slowed down matches. Idk, I've seen very few people complain(if any) about whenever I pick a stitch face and hit with it in all the smash games peach is in. If anything, it makes people get hyped up and play more defensively until it's gone. It really doesn't seem like it's a big problem.

 

[JOE!]

Bowser and 64 don't go together. At least not in smash terms.

I meant that in order... well I guess Luigi is technically melee alumn moreso since he is all about the misfire and WD now lol.

@Turnips:

The only reason the RNG here is "bad" IMO is that there is no "bad result.

Luigi's Side B isn't really RNG anymore, but the drawback is that the normal missile is booty.

The Hammer has bad results (1, 2-3 are poopy), mediocre ones that may as well have been just an aerial or something (4-7), a decent one in 8 where it freezes (but that's like 50/50), and a stellar option in 9. As somebody else mentioned, it is also riskier to toss out and harder to hit than your average projectile.

Olimar's pikmin pluck? It's on Olimar as a character

Turnips? The worst thing you can pull is a normal turnip, everything else is just better. On top of how the worst result is still "decent" is the fact that she can pull 4 game changers out at random: Mr Saturn ups her shield pressure x999, Beam Sword with brawl mechanics on it is goofy as all hell + regrabbable projectile, Bob-Omb and Stich Face may as well just give you the stock when used intelligently.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Tripping was a stupid mechanic that made dash dancing very risky to do and slowed down matches. Idk, I've seen very few people complain(if any) about whenever I pick a stitch face and hit with it in all the smash games peach is in. If anything, it makes people get hyped up and play more defensively until it's gone. It really doesn't seem like it's a big problem.

Let me get this straight.

Both things are entirely luck based and can help decide matches, sometimes very significantly.

Tripping slows down matches according to you and that's a bad thing. Okay fine. Then you go on to say that pulling a good turnup also slows down matches and that's a good thing.

See what I mean? You can't have it both ways. You're employing double standards quite literally because one was in Melee and the other wasn't.

 

[Sardonyx]

Let me get this straight.

Both things are entirely luck based and can help decide matches, sometimes very significantly.

Tripping slows down matches according to you and that's a bad thing. Okay fine. Then you go on to say that pulling a good turnup also slows down matches and that's a good thing.

See what I mean? You can't have it both ways. You're employing double standards quite literally because one was in Melee and the other wasn't.

It's whatever honestly. I do understand that it can be stupid, but I do think it helps keep people on their toes when fighting peach so it'd would be nice to keep. If people really wanted it to be nerfed, making it do less damage and KB would be good. I'd also understand why it gets nerfed.

 

[Rizner]

How do you balance the melee vets without hurting their playstyle?

Why is that a requirement when the rest of the cast doesn't have that?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

From my understanding you're saying it's valid because it keeps people on their toes versus Peach. Doesn't that go for every single overpowered thing ever? Heck, why not turn on all items? Then people would have to be even more careful.

Once again the majority of Peach matches will not be decided because of lucky turnip(s) just like how the majority of Brawl matches were not decided because of tripping. That does NOT mean they are balanced or fair aspects of competitive play.

 

[Sardonyx]

From my understanding you're saying it's valid because it keeps people on their toes versus Peach. Doesn't that go for every single overpowered thing ever? Heck, why not turn on all items? Then people would have to be even more careful.

Once again the majority of Peach matches will not be decided because of lucky turnip(s) just like how the majority of Brawl matches were not decided because of tripping. That does NOT mean they are balanced or fair aspects of competitive play.

If a majority of them won't be decided by the turnip, then why is it suddenly such a huge problem? Also, once again with the rudeness, I don't know why you feel the need to have it

 

[trash?]

man, didn't we already definitively end this argument a while back

smash is a control-freak's game. if it wasn't, we'd still all be playing with items on and tell others to just deal with it. mechanics based within RNG goes against everything else project m is intentionally designed for, regardless of if it's balanced, because unless you have a good setup like luigi's sideb, you get no control over how RNG operates.

this should not be something that's difficult to understand. if your game is based around one concept like that, the times you do exactly the opposite of that concept is not good design

 

[[OCK]LLama]

PM should stop employing double standards, that is the point I think we all are trying to get at. As someone eloquently put it the Melee top tiers seem to be playing a different game from everyone else. That is to say something that would be and has been considered completely broken in the past on a Brawl character and nerfed is given a free pass "because it was in Melee".

For instance, going back to Lucario, people are insisting he needs major nerfs because he doesn't follow the same rules as everyone else with things like ASC. And that's a fair argument. But the exact same argument could be applied to Fox/Falco's shine, Peach's CC downSmash, Falcon's up throw/stomp knees and so forth.

The different is that shine is a move with *a ton of* options

Lucario is literaly mahvel

like I think we can tell there's a difference, even without having to look at melee ****

In all seriousness
The fact that we let things go because "its melee" is because we've had what, 13 years now with melee's meta? We know we can beat melee stuff as long as humans don't suddenly become TSA level players who can 30x multishine every bowser into a free upsmash in every tournament.

Another thing people who don't play melee actually highly overrate spacies. The thing with spacies is that they have redic stuff that can punish you hard, but if you're a good player and you punish another good player and he's playing spacies, he gets punished hard too. At a low/lowmid level it's so hard for people to see that spacies are basically as much of a glass canon as jiggly is. Once people start developing punish games like they did in melee, and even mid level players do that as well, spacies will be tame again.

Marth can zero death you off of a grab or uptilt in melee as a spacie depending on the positioning/stage and the quality of the player, hello? Sounds like a ****ing fare trade to be able to waveshine like 3 relevant chars and like 10 ones that already were **** cause sheik chaingrabs them anyways.
(ALSO BTW I AM NOT SAYING WAVESHINE INFINITES SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK, HELL NO, I MAIN MARTH LOL)

The thing with Melee is how it rewards skill to the point where you worry about how the top players interact at a mental level and not their character use (I mean use anybody around luigi or higher, if you don't pick anyone like Melee mewtwo or lower level, which is really hard to find such a bad char in PM, you're honestly solid). Like if you want to main Fox in melee you're going to have to put in so much work that you're at the point that you could have put in the work with any other character and still do well because you've built up your game and fundamentals for putting up so much time. In project M all the newcomers are basically NTSC spacies but simplified and not as deep because you don't have to be at a high level to abuse the jank.

Which brings me to my next point, spacies are just way too weird in PM. Like they feel easier to play by a large margin once you get used to brawl/PM deadzones for techniques but Falco and Fox are, well.. PALco and Sux.

I am NOT saying they suck lol, god no, spacies are still great depending on the player level. But why revert them to their PAL versions when you could use NTSC as a base? It seems like a bad idea to use PAL spacies when your playerbase is NTSC AND PAL spacies are still on the same level of the PAL tier list (basically SS, in reality S) than NTSC spacies are on the NTSC list. So what's the point? By bringing PAL spacies to a new environment where "lol lets buff everyone to be ntsc spacies level" you've effectively just punished people for playing a character that they've sticked with, because of what, their character has had more time? That's ridiculous

Project M is generally at a point where we're trying to use jank and buffs to compensate for a lack of time (aka, trying to use shortcuts so that the brawl chars can catch up to the melee ones) in a consistent metagame, which is the problem. There is no problem with nerfing spacies, but when you buff chars to be NTSC spacies++, when you've shown you do not like the "imbalance" of that type of power, it's very dumb and is just bad game design.

tl;dr I'm salty that they're probably going to nerf marth after he's already a worse IkeRoy in this patch/update/game overall just because he's had more time and meta due to him being a melee char. So I ranted about that, but I said spacies in order to make myself seem legit

 

[DrinkingFood]

What? falcon doesn't have anywhere near sheik's throw lol. A lot of characters can DI away to tech chase at lower percents, or DI in to jump out/force an aerial follow-up at higher percents, tho mid fallers kinda get boned on either a CG or good aerial follow up regardless.
I hate when people say that some character has sheik's dthrow, because they don't know what NTSC Melee Sheik's dthrow was actually like
No character at any point in PM has actually had something quite that absurd
ROB's current one CGs spacies for 100 (or less depending on the spacie) and semi FFers for around 20-30%, everyone else eats an aerial follow-up at worst. ROB doesn't not have a boost grab and his dash speed/run speed aren't very high.
Pit's 3.02 one CG'd spacies for like 130-150 depending on the spacie, and semi FFers for around 15%, everyone else eats an aerial follow-up at worst. Pit does not have a boost grab (I think?) and his dash speed/run speed aren't that high.
Sheik's NTSC Melee dthrow CG'd semi fast fallers and mid fallers from 0% to kill percent, CG'd semi-floaties around 20-30% depending, always enabled a follow-up on floaties even at kill percent, and always set up a tech chase on fast fallers. Sheik had+has a boost grab, and has high dash speed+high run speed.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

The different is that shine is a move with *a ton of* options

Lucario is literaly mahvel

like I think we can tell there's a difference, even without having to look at melee ****

In all seriousness
The fact that we let things go because "its melee" is because we've had what, 13 years now with melee's meta? We know we can beat melee stuff as long as humans don't suddenly become TSA level players who can 30x multishine every bowser into a free upsmash in every tournament.

Another thing people who don't play melee actually highly overrate spacies. The thing with spacies is that they have redic stuff that can punish you hard, but if you're a good player and you punish another good player and he's playing spacies, he gets punished hard too. At a low/lowmid level it's so hard for people to see that spacies are basically as much of a glass canon as jiggly is. Once people start developing punish games like they did in melee, and even mid level players do that as well, spacies will be tame again.

Marth can zero death you off of a grab or uptilt in melee as a spacie depending on the positioning/stage and the quality of the player, hello? Sounds like a ****ing fare trade to be able to waveshine like 3 relevant chars and like 10 ones that already were **** cause sheik chaingrabs them anyways.
(ALSO BTW I AM NOT SAYING WAVESHINE INFINITES SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK, HELL NO, I MAIN MARTH LOL)

The thing with Melee is how it rewards skill to the point where you worry about how the top players interact at a mental level and not their character use (I mean use anybody around luigi or higher, if you don't pick anyone like Melee mewtwo or lower level, which is really hard to find such a bad char in PM, you're honestly solid). Like if you want to main Fox in melee you're going to have to put in so much work that you're at the point that you could have put in the work with any other character and still do well because you've built up your game and fundamentals for putting up so much time. In project M all the newcomers are basically NTSC spacies but simplified and not as deep because you don't have to be at a high level to abuse the jank.

Which brings me to my next point, spacies are just way too weird in PM. Like they feel easier to play by a large margin once you get used to brawl/PM deadzones for techniques but Falco and Fox are, well.. PALco and Sux.

I am NOT saying they suck lol, god no, spacies are still great depending on the player level. But why revert them to their PAL versions when you could use NTSC as a base? It seems like a bad idea to use PAL spacies when your playerbase is NTSC AND PAL spacies are still on the same level of the PAL tier list (basically SS, in reality S) than NTSC spacies are on the NTSC list. So what's the point? By bringing PAL spacies to a new environment where "lol lets buff everyone to be ntsc spacies level" you've effectively just punished people for playing a character that they've sticked with, because of what, their character has had more time? That's ridiculous

Project M is generally at a point where we're trying to use jank and buffs to compensate for a lack of time (aka, trying to use shortcuts so that the brawl chars can catch up to the melee ones) in a consistent metagame, which is the problem. There is no problem with nerfing spacies, but when you buff chars to be NTSC spacies++, when you've shown you do not like the "imbalance" of that type of power, it's very dumb and is just bad game design.

tl;dr I'm salty that they're probably going to nerf marth after he's already a worse IkeRoy in this patch/update/game overall just because he's had more time and meta due to him being a melee char. So I ranted about that, but I said spacies in order to make myself seem legit

Are you suggesting Fox isn't dominating Melee's meta? Because you can look up countless top 8s at majors with multiple, sometimes 5 Fox players that placed.

In fact you'd be hard pressed to find more than say 2 majors where the winning player didn't utilize Fox or Falco at some point in recent times.

So on what grounds are you saying people have adapted to Fox/Falco? If anything they are more dominant than ever.

In PM Fox is easier to play (short hopping is easier, don't need to jump cancel up Smash etc.) which doesn't help. It only means there's even more reason to use him.

 

[Life]

The thing about randomness is that because it is limited to a handful of characters and stages, random factors only come into play because someone wanted them to.