Tier List Speculation

[Juushichi]

Link's upthrow is also good guys, seriously. Also to the person asking my opinion on Ike QD, you can more or less say that I share Lunchables' appraisal.

As for Puff losing to PM characters...

These are the PM characters I think she beats: Wario, Lucas, Metaknight, Diddy Kong, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Pit, Olimar, Sonic
These are the PM characters I think are even/don't have enough data on: King DDD, Charizard, Zero Suit, Lucario, Snake, Ike
These are the PM characters I think she loses to: Wolf, Toon Link

I am not sure what sort of Jigglypuffs you guys know, but I know at least 2 of the 3 that I think are notable. Care to chime in @SoulPech?

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

His D throw after early % is a free followup

It's still pretty good.



I was watching the tourney/checked the bracket. The only real notable person he had to beat besides sethlon was oracle, and it came down to game 5 and oracle choked it away. Puff probably doesn't even have problems with rob seeing as how his d throw doesn't destroy her and her aerial mobility lets her stuff robs side b shenanigans.

He does get follow ups being nair, u-tilt, and sometimes up-smash. Thats with no DI with DI things get fairly unreliable. I'm not saying his options are horrible out of D-throw jest not as "good" as you'd think. Also yeah depending on percents and DI link can get some stuff out of up-throw and can be arguably better than d-throw.

 

[Boiko]

He does get follow ups being nair, u-tilt, and sometimes up-smash. Thats with no DI with DI things get fairly unreliable. I'm not saying his options are horrible out of D-throw jest not as "good" as you'd think. Also yeah depending on percents and DI link can get some stuff out of up-throw and can be arguably better than d-throw.

Link can combo down throw into dair at kill percents on Ness. I'm sure that it works on a good chunk of the cast at different percents.

 

[Deleted member]

so zach, youre saying i should play ike and do QD grab spam? because im pretty sure mediocre QD use is why most ikes lose and just playing normal ike with grab spam might be doing them a favor lol

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

D-throw dair only works on floats killing at around 87% besides floaties it doesn't work consistently on the rest of the cast unless your opponent mis-tecs. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that imo its not as viable of an option on the cast as a whole in 3.5.

 

[Deleted member]

so zach, youre saying i should play ike and do QD grab spam? because im pretty sure mediocre QD use is why most ikes lose and just playing normal ike with grab spam might be doing them a favor lol

My point is that his QD game is amazing because of mixup options. JC Grab by itself would be way too poor, the whole point is that you condition them into shielding so you can get grabs.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I don't know if technically feasible, but making QD jump cancel using his second jump would eliminate that options forcing him to waveland grab. This is what pikachu's have to do for QAC.

 

[_A1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P9I4SiGgGE&feature=youtu.be&t=9m19s
Lucky got shined at 0% because he ran over to the ledge and commited to a rather bad grab attempt. And he had the ****ING LEAD too, with Silent Wolf at 140% on his last stock. No offense, but you guys must have low *** Smash IQ if you think that was a good example (it's really sad that some well known PM players fall under this category). Plus I said CONSISTENTLY, which doesn't happen to top players.

That's not to say Fox/shine is or isn't "broken." You guys can keep bickering about it if want. If you take out shine, all Fox players would do is camp away (more so if they already do it) to win. Would you guys like that? Nerf him some other way.

@Relax Alax Not every Fox main plays him to have the best chances of winning. I like his playstyle in the same way that you like Ganon's style.

In the end it's not easy getting through to people with low Smash IQ. At least have some true understanding of the game before trying to give your input on tiers. Not trying to upset anyone. Just sayin' how I feel.

 

[Ningildo]

"I'm insulting you all in terms of skill and all, but it's not an insult cause I said so."

And btw, where are your credentials since you are more knowledgeable then people who get results? What the hell do you mean with Smash IQ?

Could you be civil since you're so much better then us and thus, need to set a good example for the community or is that too much to ask?

 

[_A1]

"I'm insulting you all in terms of skill and all, but it's not an insult cause I said so."

And btw, where are your credentials since you are more knowledgeable then people who get results? What the hell do you mean with Smash IQ?

Could you be civil since you're so much better then us and thus, need to set a good example for the community or is that too much to ask?

If you didn't understand why that link wasn't a good example for how people always get killed at 0% by Fox than you most likely lack understanding of the game. It's that simple. Smash IQ is understanding of the game lol duh.

Sadly the only thing I can say about myself is that I just won a PM local. I can't travel to prove myself either. But you can either trust my earlier analysis or dismiss me as some naive scrub. It's your call.

I said no offense as in "no offense to you as people." I'm saying that you're not a bad person if you don't know much about smash.

 

[Ningildo]

If you didn't understand why that link wasn't a good example for how people always get killed at 0% by Fox than you most likely lack understanding of the game. It's that simple. Smash IQ is understanding of the game lol duh.

Sadly the only thing I can say about myself is that I just won a PM local. I can't travel to prove myself either. But you can either trust my earlier analysis or dismiss me as some naive scrub. It's your call.

I said no offense as in "no offense to you as people." I'm saying that your not a bad person if you don't know much about smash.

On my phone with fairly crappy data so videos are a no go atm.

You didn't say anywhere in your post above that you're not insulting people as people but as smashers...which is still insulting to people who put their time into the game regardless.

And in order to get results at tournaments, you need to understand the game well, so...

I'm not gonna go and try to argue your analysis right now (see first sentence), but making sweeping statements like that without solid proof to back it up is a good way to look like an asshole.

 

[_A1]

If you really care about smash or anything competitive, you gotta be ready to accept that people might insult you and that you might suck ***. If you really have competitive fire, it should motivate you to get better. Why let someone like me get you down?

Think hard about it @ Ningildo

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lunchies if it makes you feel better, personally, I would rework ROB's throws to encourage more creative use of other tools to combo. And then I'd give him other tools to combo.

 

[Ningildo]

If you really care about smash or anything competitive, you gotta be ready to accept that people might insult you and that you might suck ***. If you really have competitive fire, it should motivate you to get better. Why let someone like me get you down?

Think hard about it @ Ningildo

I don't mind being insulted as long as it serves a purpose (joking around, trashtalking etc).

Insulting a person when arguing because you think he's wrong rather then pointing out why his reasoning for his statement is flawed only makes people less likely to listen.

I respect people's opinion unless they insult other people for (usually) no reason and then say something like "people shouldn't get butthurt by just an opinion" (and by butthurt, they mean disagreeing with their opinion).

I like getting told I suck cause it means I have room for improvement. I don't like flawed reasoning for ****ty opinions (not really yours in this case, but others that think they're above the rest), as I have knee jerk reaction to those.

 

[_A1]

It just seemed like everyone looked at it and said, "Wow, Fox is so broken. Silent Wolf killed Lucky at 0% just like that."

They didn't break it down and analyze, and that's how they're wrong. If you did then you realized that it was more of Lucky's poor decision making than Fox's comeback ability. There was no reason it should have ended up that way.

 

[NWRL]

Pit's 3.5 dtilt is probably one of the most awkward and unsatisfying moves I've used in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

It was pretty damn good in 3.02, iirc it broke CC mad early

Not every character has to have all their moves be amazing. Ex: Sheik

 

[Soft Serve]

It just seemed like everyone looked at it and said, "Wow, Fox is so broken. Silent Wolf killed Lucky at 0% just like that."

They didn't break it down and analyze, and that's how they're wrong. If you did then you realized that it was more of Lucky's poor decision making than Fox's comeback ability. There was no reason it should have ended up that way.

This is literally what I said like two pages ago, without insulting people and while actually contributing to the discussion

 

[Deleted member]

This is literally what I said like two pages ago, without insulting people and while actually contributing to the discussion

you can take your stupid analysis out of here and don't let the door hit your ass. come back when you're ready to talk trash while you say things

**** **** **** ass *****

 

[Rᴏb]

don't say smash IQ

 

[mimgrim]

don't say smash IQ

Smash IQ Smash IQ Smash IQ Smash IQ Smash IQ

Like Smash IQ did Smash IQ you Smash IQ know Smash IQ that Smash IQ Hiyah Boozer Smash IQ is Smash IQ the Smash IQ worst best Smash IQ character Smash IQ in Smash IQ the Smash IQ game.

 

[Rᴏb]

Like did you know that Boozer is the worst best character in the game.

In the end it's not easy getting through to people with low Smash IQ. At least have some true understanding of the game before trying to give your input on tiers. Not trying to upset anyone. Just sayin' how I feel.

 

[Boiko]

God, I really regret linking that. My smash IQ is so low.

 

[steelguttey]

not trying to upset anyone

no offense

imo

but

if you arent premium and have an anime character as your profile picture, you suck

just imo tho, cant argue with it.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sadly the only thing I can say about myself is that I just won a PM local. I can't travel to prove myself either.

I've won a fair number of locals, but I still think I suck at this game

 

[Deleted member]

not trying to upset anyone

no offense

imo

but

if you arent premium and have an anime character as your profile picture, you suck

just imo tho, cant argue with it.

your opinion is wrong

 

[mimgrim]

not trying to upset anyone

no offense

imo

but

if you arent premium and have an anime character as your profile picture, you suck

just imo tho, cant argue with it.

So then... You half suck?

 

[howbadisbad]

So when are they gonna change G&W down b to a command grab where he puts characters into his trashbin then empties it over the ledge?

 

[steelguttey]

your opinion is wrong

dude it was imo you cant say im wrong

anyway so i dont get banned lets talk about the actual game

g/w is dumb yea but his dumb stuff is only accessed by getting passed his ****ty neutral

hes a punish character to the extreme

 

[Vidiot825]

Link can combo down throw into dair at kill percents on Ness. I'm sure that it works on a good chunk of the cast at different percents.

It works on more or less anyone who's not a fast faller at percents greater than about 100. The problem is actually getting the grab without getting punished to death for a missed tether. Since his combo weight is atrocious, it's a risk-reward situation really.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Kek. Just tested ROB's dthrow on Tink.
0% can regrab regardless of DI.
After second dthrow, if they DI away, you can regrab again, if they don't you can reverse bair into a grab (weird SDI might stop this idk).
Keep in mind these can all be interrupted by platforms, but I just upthrow <40% to get around that (any higher you can just dthrow and follow up above platform); past 40% is way past CG range, way past third dthrow would send if you regrabbed again.
After third dthrow (after the bair, they should be at ~29% before the throw), and probably until around 100, you can get any aerial off. After this throw's follow-up you should probably be able to escape any more guaranteed damage, with the right DI. Baby jesus cries everytime you get fairchained mid stage.
Up until 140%, you can get boost upair which will almost always at that percent. Any higher, you can pummel until they are past 152% which guarantees a uthrow kill (test on FD's ceiling) depending on the ceiling height.

I mean, I always knew it was this crazy. It can also CG fox/falco 0-to-death every time if no platform gets in the way. dthrow till ~105 (slightly higher for falco) then upsmash/DACUS. Fair them to death if they go offstage. And if for whatever reason you get them to like 170, too low for uthrow kill on spacies, dthrow still combos into boost->any uair, lmao

Thank goodness he only has one thing this reliable, and that he's kinda slow on the ground.
good character design 101 courtesy of JCaesar

 

[Deleted member]

I don't feel like any character should have that d throw.

I actually had a night mare last night that oracle and I were arguing, and he just ****ing decked me. Except instead of stopping there, he continuously punched me. I don't really remember what happened after that

Oh and also robs slow on the ground thing is more than covered up by the fact that you can't actually camp him and he has an air dash.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Being slow on the ground is definitely relevant when you are a big fat square that can't really out DD a lot of things. That's like, a major way to land grabs in PM/Melee. ROB really needs a good set-up or an overcommitment on the opponent's part to land a grab.

And there are definitely ways to camp him. Sheik can for sure, I know that much.

 

[Deleted member]

Something I don't see enough rob players do is mixup jab and grab from boost fair on shield

iirc boost fair is -1, and a lot of robs like to jab afterwards. You can just mix it up with grabbing instead of jabbing and you have this great mixup that if you guess right, either gets you a D throw or a jab into dsmash.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Boost fair is -3 on shield, which is why it has to be a frame perfect jab to beat a frame perfect grab OoS.
Jab into dsmash isn't a thing, Jab hits frame 3 and doesn't have IASA until frame 20. Acting out of it with anything but a second jab, it's one of the slowest in the game. Like how many jabs are -13 on shield
Boost fair to grab loses (or just resets) to literally anything that isn't just waiting in shield, since they get out of shield stun 9 frames before your grab can land. Loses to spotdodge, quick aerials/up-bs/upsmashes OoS, grab, resets to neutral against a roll. You have to condition them to wait in shield for it to work or bait out a reaction then punish.

 

[Hylian]

It just seemed like everyone looked at it and said, "Wow, Fox is so broken. Silent Wolf killed Lucky at 0% just like that."

They didn't break it down and analyze, and that's how they're wrong. If you did then you realized that it was more of Lucky's poor decision making than Fox's comeback ability. There was no reason it should have ended up that way.

Er...Shine Spikes are extremely common in top level play. Hell, Mango has shine spiked Hbox's puff in tournament lmfao. I've been going to tournaments all over the nation since 2003 and I can 100% guarantee you top players get hit by shine spikes all the time. Berating others and acting as if you have superior knowledge with no credentials is just childish. We don't need to break down and analyze shine spiking because it's such a common occurrence and well known area of smash since like..2002. Claiming they don't happen to top players is just blatant ignorance. Sure, fox doesn't kill people at 0% every stock, but no one is saying that.

P.S. I've mained fox my entire melee career and love the character.

 

[Strong Badam]

You've probably got a low Smash IQ, Hylian, talkin' like that.

 

[Mr_Shadow]

Can somebody direct me to a PM 3.5 tier list?

 

[Juushichi]

try taking a look a few pages back

you're in the right place : )

 

[Mr_Shadow]

try taking a look a few pages back

Too much work. It's not worth it.

Can anyone point me to a specific page with a 3.5 tier list?