Tier List Speculation

[kevinw0w]

Did you forget ChuDat exists?

IMO, Chudat almost just plays his brawl Kirby in this game. He doesn't quite utilize Kirby's full toolkit. That said, he's still the best Kirby player right now. Kirby is a decent character who has a few very silly things: namely dash attack and dthrow.

 

[Mr.Random]

Guys few things

If we're making tier lists based off results, Mario, Diddy and Pit are top 3 EAZY. Mewtwo has won like 1 or two tournaments, all by the same guy.

Whats the consensus on Kirby and Snake? Some people think Kirby is dominant, some like myself think he is nothing more than a bunch of gimmicks that won't work at the highest level of play. As for Snake, Professor Pro is off the charts. The character I know is not broken but he reminds me of space animals.He gets a hit and its a huge combo. Its kinda ridiculous. A good Snake can get a C4 stick, a chaingrab, and a zero to death combo in one interaction between his opponent via just a grab. The only thing I think sucks for Snake is his horrible susceptibility to well spaced shield pressure and his approach.

Also I wouldn't consider top ten. She has all of these guys to deal with>>

Mario hasn't won any tourneys either (only came close to winning BH3). Mewtwo, Diddy, Pit, Fox, and Lucas are top 5 and have better results. Mario is around 6th or 7th with possibly MK.

 

[TreK]

I don't ever really play against Sonic, what would you say are some bad MUs?

Ivysaur almost wins the matchup, but there is no way for an Ivysaur to deal with a camping Sonic on a large stage, unfortunately.
I'd say Ivy has it at +1 on small stages and -2 on large stages.

 

[didds]

blah, nevermind, ignore

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Okay enough of who's Top Tier and how we can nerf them. Let's switch to talk about the Low Tiers and how we can Buff them. Also, let's assume the PMBR are using Ike as a reference to balance around, he's pretty balanced IMO.

 

[Player -0]

I thought the PMBR made it clear that they didn't want threads like this..?

 

[mimgrim]

I thought the PMBR made it clear that they didn't want threads like this..?

.....Not sure if joking.

Okay enough of who's Top Tier and how we can nerf them. Let's switch to talk about the Low Tiers and how we can Buff them. Also, let's assume the PMBR are using Ike as a reference to balance around, he's pretty balanced IMO.

Ermmmm. I have no idea for Jigglypuff besides revamping her totally. ICs need to have the best grab game. Ganondorf needs a better grab at least, I also think he should be more like Melee height (and he feels slower from Melee as well). Bowser needs something to force projectile characters to approach.

Who else?

 

[steelguttey]

i swear to god if we talk about **** tiers and olimar comes up im gonna flip a table

 

[MrTea]

Olimar's pretty bad mkay

 

[Player -0]

But is Oli bottom 5 material like TLink?

 

[steelguttey]

yes tink+olimar bottom 5 2kxx pls buff my character

 

[mimgrim]

I think Olimar is pretty good.

Still think he should have at least 5 Pikmin though. Would prefer 6, but I don't think other people would like that all that much.

 

[Foo]

┻━┻ ︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵ ┻━┻

In all seriousness, it's really hard to pick out a low tier. If you look at other smash games, there are plenty of really bad characters, but in PM there was a massive power creep. If you say any character is low tier, people point out all of the strong things they have, and they aren't wrong. It's just that every character has really strong aspects in this game, but some have more than others. I actually might have Olimar in bottom 5, not because he's bad, but because I can't think of enough characters that are less strong.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

my bottom 5:

...?

There's just too much stupid **** that you can do to fat bodies. It's not that they have terrible kits, but that they're so susceptible to grabs and combos from all characters due to their size and usually lame options for dealing with pressure. And Jigglypuff because I heard she sucks now from my mamma.

IMO of course, but I'm always up for education.

 

[steelguttey]

d3 aint bottom five

 

[Circle_Breaker]

stop saying everyone isn't bottom 5 and tell us who is, lol

 

[Ogopogo]

Now I guess we're gonna talk about Lucas and his stuff. Like his dair to usmash. And his kill throw. And his infinite. And his recovery. And his etc.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Lucas's dumb recovery has already been addressed appropriately by the back room in their blog posts.

 

[Ogopogo]

Lucas's dumb recovery has already been addressed appropriately by the back room in their blog posts.

I know. But it still exists and it's still dumb.

At least we know it'll be changed...

 

[steelguttey]

stop saying everyone isn't bottom 5 and tell us who is, lol

my bottom 5 is probably

 

[Zx2963]

A littlw bit off topic, who here is happy about the Lucas nerf?
I'm gonna have fun meteor smashing that jump

 

[Foo]

Jiggly, gannon and iceclimbers are pretty solidly in the bottom five, but it's a toss up from there. Bowser is great at pretty much everything, but gets combo'd like CRAZY, Yoshi is actually really good if you know how to abuse everything that's really broken about him, DDD is really good at gimping and wall of paining while also boasting great range, but gets combo'd easily. Olimar just seems to be mediocre at almost everything until he gets flowers (although he isn't bad at stalling for it. He also has the worst recovery of any tether, since he cannot recover high. That means any character with an aerial that hangs out gimps him for free if you time it right.

In the end, picking out the bottom tier is pointless imo. With the exception of jiggles and iceclimbers, I feel like the entire cast is good enough and doesn't need to be buffed. On the other hand, there are a handful of characters that are just broken as hell. While I feel buffs are generally better than nerfs in this game, the cast seems OP as a whole.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

my bottom 5 is probably

Lol yoshi and ICs, no way they are bottom 5. ICs have so many desynchs, they're just an undeveloped mystery. But their movement, disjoints, projectile, not to mention the basic concept of the character - can't grab them - guarantees they aren't the worst. and yoshi is a beast in this game.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

A littlw bit off topic, who here is happy about the Lucas nerf?
I'm gonna have fun meteor smashing that jump

Literally everyone who isn't a Lucas main. And a lot of them should be too.

 

[mimgrim]

my bottom 5:

...?

There's just too much stupid **** that you can do to fat bodies. It's not that they have terrible kits, but that they're so susceptible to grabs and combos from all characters due to their size and usually lame options for dealing with pressure. And Jigglypuff because I heard she sucks now from my mamma.

IMO of course, but I'm always up for education.

DDD is a slight step behind Charizard and is quite a few step-ups from the other fatties.

Bottom 5 is probably like (not actually ordered here). However I would say there is a gap from Puff and ICs to Ganon and Bowser with another gap to GnW (or <<)

 

[victinivcreate1]

Characters that people consider trash but really aren't that bad
Out of all of these, I feel ZSS and Yoshi have the most potential, but don't have the mains like how Lucas and Snake have Pink Fresh and Professor Pro/Rolex

 

[thatoneguy1]

i dont think dk is bottom 5 as i've seen him do decent in most matchups but he's more lower mid tier

 

[Circle_Breaker]

DDD is a slight step behind Charizard and is quite a few step-ups from the other fatties.

Bottom 5 is probably like (not actually ordered here). However I would say there is a gap from Puff and ICs to Ganon and Bowser with another gap to GnW (or <<)

D3 is sooo much worse than charizard. Ridiculously linear and punishable recovery, much slower and less rewarding normals, weaker combo game, terrible OoS options, longer jump squat, slower fastfall, worse disjoints, worse grab game... Charizard is what a fat body needs to be to compete in a smash game. D3 lacks the spice.

 

[Bleck]

...?

There's just too much stupid **** that you can do to fat bodies. It's not that they have terrible kits, but that they're so susceptible to grabs and combos from all characters due to their size and usually lame options for dealing with pressure.

Bowser and DK have very fast out-of-shield options with their up specials, but other than that, I feel like you're right, and their biggest issue is that their size leaves them with little wiggle room for dealing with offensive play. A character shouldn't have to rely on perfect shielding, you know?

 

[steelguttey]

D3 is sooo much worse than charizard. Ridiculously linear and punishable recovery, much slower and less rewarding normals, weaker combo game, terrible OoS options, longer jump squat, slower fastfall, worse disjoints, worse grab game... Charizard is what a fat body needs to be to compete in a smash game. D3 lacks the spice.

his recovery isnt easy to stuff cause the vertical one has super power and the horizontal one has a projectile going with it. his normals are hella rewarding cause they give so much space and breathing room.

worse disjoints? are you serious

and dedede's grab game is amazing.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

his recovery isnt easy to stuff cause the vertical one has super power and the horizontal one has a projectile going with it. his normals are hella rewarding cause they give so much space and breathing room.

worse disjoints? are you serious

and dedede's grab game is amazing.

Yeah I was 100% serious about worse disjoints. Have you ever played as charizard. D3 has good disjoints but zards dtilt > d3's ftilt. Zard's nair > D3's fair. Zard's forward special > jet hammer. And zard's jab is wild.

Not sure if you know what reward means. D3 has relatively low risk normals if your spacing is okay but don't start combos like zard starts combos.

Also d3's grab game is pretty good I guess. But he doesn't have a sick mixup with dash attack vs. grab, you can shield his dash attack on reaction. His tech chase isn't as good and I may be wrong but I don't think he can kill as early.

Waddledashing is good for horizontal but his upB is totally easy to stuff. He either cancels for the ledge which is punishable or goes high which is even easier to punish. The best thing about his super jump is how deep it lets him go for an edge guard.

Mostly he's just significantly slower/less mobile than zard in a few critical ways (jump squat, dashdance) and handles pressure really, really badly.

 

[steelguttey]

ftilt is the longest non-special move in the game (?)

and d3 is gets kills with gimping and really powerful smashes. he builds up percent with poking with ftilt and stuffing people. combos arent needed all the time.

super waddle jump has armor and is not punishable until you go into free fall mode but coming up it has armor and if you do it right at the ledgeit grabs instantly.

and his shield issooo good that he just needs one dsmash to get someone off you.

his mobility isnt that awful

 

[Circle_Breaker]

His mobility is pretty bad. And dsmash doesn't count as an OOS option sorry.
F tilt is really easy to jump over and he has no punishing anti airs for approaches like charizard's jab.

 

[guyincognito]

Bowser and DK have very fast out-of-shield options with their up specials, but other than that, I feel like you're right, and their biggest issue is that their size leaves them with little wiggle room for dealing with offensive play. A character shouldn't have to rely on perfect shielding, you know?

The hitbox of their size is at least mitigated by the range and huge knockback on their attacks. Bowser has his super armor and DK has his grab game going for them. I'm not too familiar with Bowser, but DK is def not a bottom tier character. M2K uses it for certain matchups. I find him useful against the Fire Emblem characters.

 

[steelguttey]

His mobility is pretty bad. And dsmash doesn't count as an OOS option sorry.
F tilt is really easy to jump over and he has no punishing anti airs for approaches like charizard's jab.

short hop nair is really good anti air and yea ik it isnt but shield pressure in this game always has pauses in it and thats when you dsamsh

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Jiggs, Ganon, ICs are the only characters that would need a real buff to become "viable" maybe throw shiek into that conversation. people can say Yoshi but tbh that's only because no one really bothered to spend the time on learning him and actually getting good with them.

Every other character is viable. Be real. Some need nerfs (looking at you Mewtwo/Diddy/Pit/Mario) but there aren't too many issues and I feel like people blow it out of proportion saying the game is completely unbalanced when if you actually sat down and tried to make a tier list it would be hard because you can argue the 95% of the cast is viable and making a low tier is pretty hard. Not to mention your Mid tier would be huge.

 

[B.W.]

My personal bottom 5.

No specific order.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

My personal bottom 5.

No specific order.

How is Squirtle Bottom 5? His mobility, combo and gimp game are better than any other character's by far. He comes back from literally anywhere with withdraw and UpB (is this surf or waterfall? never knew O.o) his only downfall is really his light weight allows him to die off the top earlier than most.

 

[guyincognito]

M2K said during an interview that there are 6 "broken" characters in the game (in no particular order): Pit, Mewtwo, Lucas, Diddy, Link, and Sonic. I agree with his assessment mostly, but noticed he didn't include any space animals in his list.

 

[Zoa]

Since Jiggs is now fairy type, I took a look at the level up list on serebii. There's a new move called Disarming Voice that's fairy type. Since Jiggs is all about her vocals, maybe give this to her as a projectile option? The in game text mentions the user letting out an emotional cry to attack the opponent. It's a sure hit move like Aura Sphere, Swift, etc., though that won't necessarily transition well like AS. Maybe a stun move since it's an emotional cry? If bad idea, then blame 4 AM here.