Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

@ victinivcreate1 what exactly are your credentials to be calling out people?
Did you beat CPU fox once and decide that you won because you have most match up knowledge of anyone in world?

 

[GP&B]

Why is complaining about Fox's overwhelming presence as well as strength in PM a john?

You say learn the MU, but you figure Fox players would be at a significant disadvantage as there's a lot more counter-knowledge against him than the new MUs. Despite all that, he makes huge strides at tournaments anyways. I'm not buying this at all.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I don't think @ victinivcreate1 even knows or understands the argument for nerfing Fox, seeing as he's trying to call people out on matchup knowledge.

 

[kaizo13]

speaking from experience and from what i've witnessed in top level tourneys, fox is definitely not the same threat he was in Melee. I don't see any legitimate reason to nerf him.

He still gets punished just as hard for technical errors and his recovery gets swatted out the sky just as easily.

while having really great strengths his weaknesses are certainly present and they keep him in check, not too sure i can say that about other PM characters

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ victinivcreate1 what exactly are your credentials to be calling out people?
Did you beat CPU fox once and decide that you won because you have most match up knowledge of anyone in world?

Did you lose to cpu fox and decided that he needed nerfs?

kaizo13 explained everything so I have no need to speak.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

speaking from experience and from what i've witnessed in top level tourneys, fox is definitely not the same threat he was in Melee. I don't see any legitimate reason to nerf him.

He still gets punished just as hard for technical errors and his recovery gets swatted out the sky just as easily.

while having really great strengths his weaknesses are certainly present and they keep him in check, not too sure i can say that about other PM characters

This, very this please.

 

[Paradoxium]

Lucas feels a bit outreached, especially by blue-haired swordsmen. Soft counters though, just have to be more defensive.
However, he needs space and movement. I feel that Snake's a pretty harsh counter.

There is no way Lucas loses to Marth. Lucas has a projectile, runs hella fast, and has an absurd pressure + Punish game. Marth gets bodied.


and my problems with Fox are
1- UP smash
2- Recovery with no landing lag that also leads into ko moves

Problems with Falco
1- Lasers

 

[yohoos]

Fox is an awesome character and I love his playstyle, but I just don't think it's fair when I see UpSmash kill so ridiculously early, that move should get a knockback growth nerf for how fast it is. Also, if only Upthrow-Upair wasn't so easy and guaranteed, Fox would be much less menacing and might even get some difficult matchups. That kill setup is just too strong on a character that can start racking up damage rather quickly. In Melee that combo makes/breaks certain matchups like Jiggs and Peach I feel.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Did you lose to cpu fox and decided that he needed nerfs?

I didn't say anything about fox needing nerfs lol
I'm just wonderimg how you can possibly feel relevant enough to call people out

 

[Paradoxium]

Fox is an awesome character and I love his playstyle, but I just don't think it's fair when I see UpSmash kill so ridiculously early, that move should get a knockback growth nerf for how fast it is. Also, if only Upthrow-Upair wasn't so easy and guaranteed, Fox would be much less menacing and might even get some difficult matchups. That kill setup is just too strong on a character that can start racking up damage rather quickly. In Melee that combo makes/breaks certain matchups like Jiggs and Peach I feel.

upthrow upair is not free, that's called learning the match up

 

[JOE!]

upthrow upair is not free, that's called learning the match up

Indeed, FOx can't even Uthrow -Uair Charizard... like at all

 

[t3chn0g0at]

upthrow upair is not free, that's called learning the match up

You can't be serious.

 

[GP&B]

Rephrase: UThrow -> UAir is not that free. But it's obvious that even top players cannot consistently perform the SDI needed to escape it. Otherwise, why would HBox still be losing to it by Mango after playing this matchup many, many times over? This also goes without saying that Fox's ability to land grabs is not exactly difficult either.

 

[Kati]

Ness isn't even in the game anymore with a recovery nerf and ya'll arguing Fox for the 12th year

?? I doubt Ness's recovery will take a hit. Like the blogpost said, distance travelled is only one factor.

 

[sneakytako]

Why does fox's up-b have a bigger hitbox on the startup than falco up-b?

Balance or not, I feel that it's just dumb.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Falco's up-b start-up doesn't have a hitbox at all

 

[victinivcreate1]

Idk why people are still crying nerf to Fox.

@ InfinityCollision
People usually cry "NERF" to things that they don't understand or want to learn to fight against. Many of these players seem like newer smash players who don't want to learn the Fox MU, and because every iteration of PM nerfs a character hardcore if the scrubs rant loud enough, they're figuring if they vocalize enough, Fox will be dead.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Idk why people are still crying nerf to Fox.

@ InfinityCollision
People usually cry "NERF" to things that they don't understand or want to learn to fight against. Many of these players seem like newer smash players who don't want to learn the Fox MU, and because every iteration of PM nerfs a character hardcore if the scrubs rant loud enough, they're figuring if they vocalize enough, Fox will be d.

I'm just wonderimg how you can possibly feel relevant enough to call people out

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ DrinkingFood
Just responding to something infinity said earlier.

Also, *wondering

 

[Mr.Random]

Does anyone legitimately love to play as Fox? Like in both Melee and PM? Something about the character just clicks. I never feel limited as him due to the amount of options I have. So many possible approaches that are viable and ways to use him. You have speed, power, and versatility.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Does anyone legitimately love to play as Fox? Like in both Melee and PM? Something about the character just clicks. I never feel limited as him due to the amount of options I have. So many possible approaches that are viable and ways to use him. You have speed, power, and versatility.

I like him, thing is I like other characters more, and they have these options too.

 

[DrinkingFood]

*wondering

It's a touch keyboard I miss the N key all the time
Notice how you still haven't given reason why everyone else shouldn't think you're bad and why anyone should value your input on the Fox situation, despite attributing complaints about fox to nothing other than "you're bad".

 

[Paradoxium]

It's a touch keyboard I miss the N key all the time
Notice how you still haven't given reason why everyone else shouldn't think you're bad and why anyone should value your input on the Fox situation, despite attributing complaints about fox to nothing other than "you're bad".

This is the tier list speculation thread, over 50% of people here don't have value in their inputs.

 

[victinivcreate1]

It's a touch keyboard I miss the N key all the time
Notice how you still haven't given reason why everyone else shouldn't think you're bad and why anyone should value your input on the Fox situation, despite attributing complaints about fox to nothing other than "you're bad".

Oh you have every right to say I'm bad. I have attended no tournies. Only play wifi. However I can tell my experiences vs those who have attended international tournies like Apex. I'm no pro at this game, but I can tell you, Fox still has the same problems in this game thant he had in Melee, plus a few more, and many characters have been buffed, with combo games designed to beat this character off one read.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ Paradoxium Yeah but only a few of those spend time going "LOL you guys are all BAD for complaining about X!"
If you are going to call people bad you should give reason to believe you are better than them and know what you are talking about
But next time I see one of those I guess I'll address them too

Oh you have every right to say I'm bad. I have attended no tournies. Only play wifi. However I can tell my experiences vs those who have attended international tournies like Apex. I'm no pro at this game, but I can tell you, Fox still has the same problems in this game thant he had in Melee, plus a few more, and many characters have been buffed, with combo s designed to beat this character off one read.

Playing against players who have attended Apex, and having not done anything more, and over wifi no less, qualifies you absolutely none at all for valuable input in this thread, sorry. In fact, even many of those who have attended Apex have worthless point of views because half of them are getting 200th+ place.

 

[Paradoxium]

@ Paradoxium Yeah but only a few of those spend time going "LOL you guys are all BAD for complaining about X!"
If you are going to call people bad you should give reason to believe you are better than them and know what you are talking about
But next time I see one of those I guess I'll address them too

Damn I gotta agree. If you wanna call out you gotta beef up.

wow that just sounded so gay lol

 

[victinivcreate1]

Damn I gotta agree. If you wanna call out you gotta beef up.

In Melee, Fox suffers from a recovery with a linear nature and few mix ups with said recovery, and his ease of being comboed.

PM takes those two things, plus
Makes up throw up air not true combo except on a few characters
Shine has no invincibility and slightly stronger knockback, making waveshines near impossible
Lasers do less damage the farther away you are

And a game nerf, which is every character has combo games and moveset made in mind of trying to combo Fox hard/gimp him at 25/chaingrab him until KO percents

Also PM recoveries are wayy stronger than Melee recoveries (Pit, Diddy, Mewtwo, Sonic, ZSS, Lucas, etc), making shine spikes a bit less effective.

 

[Mr.Random]

Makes up throw up air not true combo except on a few characters
Shine has no invincibility and slightly stronger knockback, making waveshines near impossible

Hello?! @ELI-mination you can confirm that the only thing changed about Fox was lasers nerfed and 1 frame invincible shine nerf?

 

[GP&B]

Shine has no invincibility and slightly stronger knockback, making waveshines near impossible

I don't believe this isn't true and pretty sure you're mistaking this for a game issue that makes wallshine infinites impossible (which isn't really a problem).

And a game nerf, which is every character has combo games and moveset made in mind of trying to combo Fox hard/gimp him at 25/chaingrab him until KO percents

Which is frankly bad game design necessitated by the desire to make Fox less dominant. This kind of design also crushes characters who are far less fortunate than Fox (ie. Roy, Falcon, other FFers). I'm also not a big fan of mindless CGs to begin with (coming from an Ike main who can easily CG Fox to 60%+ into all kinds of finishers).

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Mr.Random
Whoops I worded that completely wrong. With more floaty characters, up throw up air doesn't work.

@ GP&B waveshine infinite was removed from the game, and I'm not referring to the wall thing. Try infiniting Peach. You can't. In Melee you can.

 

[CyberZixx]

In Melee, Fox suffers from a recovery with a linear nature and few mix ups with said recovery, and his ease of being comboed.
.

How is an up b with tons of angles, a quick side b with a few lengths few options? At a medium distance from the ledge Fox has more mix ups than most characters. If it was that simple, look at M2K vs Mango sets and see how often Mango gets killed early off an edgeguard.

 

[GP&B]

I don't have the information at hand to dispute so I won't disagree.

But I will also disagree that Fox has limited options when that's really not the case at all. His recovery is neither free nor too good and I'd say that mixups are the absolute least of his problems. I would actually go so far to say that it's pretty fair in that Fox has many options yet they're fairly predictable. If Fox is hit below the stage he loses effectively up to three or more of them (Illusion to ledge, shortened, platform canceled, several Firefox angle mixups). What keeps him from getting screwed badly here is that Firefox still covers a huge amount of distance and attempts to ride the stage up towards the ledge also grant him ledge tech opportunities (which then restore all of his mixup potential).

 

[leekslap]

Discuss characters' potentials and how they stack up against the rest of the cast here.

Feel free to discuss why your tier list makes sense, and what people are likely missing in theirs.

This stuff below is out of date.

Spoiler

Wow . That's the worst tier list I have ever seen. It just is. So I'm gonna go out on a limb and try to to make my own tier list. If anything seems wrong, make a good arguement and I'll change it .
~~~~~~
Top Tier
~~~~~~
1. Fox
2. Sonic
3. Pit
~~~~~
High Tier
~~~~~
4. Zelda
5. Mewtwo
6. Meta Knight
7. Link
8. Lucas
9. Diddy Kong
10. Wolf
~~~~~~~~~~
Upper Mid Tier
~~~~~~~~~~
11. Mario
12. Snake
13. Falco
14. Ivysaur
15. King Dedede
16. Lucario
17. Ike
~~~~~~
Mid Tier
~~~~~~
18. Ness
19. Samus
20. Marth
21. Wario
22. Charizard
23. Roy
24. R.O.B
25. Peach
26. Captain Falcon
27. Donkey Kong
28. Ice Climbers
~~~~~~
Low Tier
~~~~~~
29. ZSS
30. Squirtle
31. Luigi
32. Pikachu
33. Yoshi
34. Bowser
35. Olimar
36. Sheik
~~~~~~~~
Bottom Tier
~~~~~~~~
37. Ganondorf
38. Mr Game and Watch
39. Jigglypuff
40. Toon Link

NOTES

- All of these characters , bar Bottom Tiers, have potential to win a tournament or a match if used well so don't be turned off if a character you like isn't Top Tier.

- Most Melee Top Tiers rank lower because despite the knowledge and experience, the enviroment change is enough to butt them down. Ex. Jigglypuff did well because so many characters had bad recovery but now everyone has great recovery ( 3.5 will change this and my Tier List so the Puff shall return! )and Sheik succeded because her combos and speed were top notch which is below average in Project M.

I hope you like my tier list

 

[victinivcreate1]

Decent list. Only gripes are that Zelda, Wario, Dedede, Link and Ice Climbers are too high and ZSS, Squirtle, Sheik and Yoshi are too low

@ CyberZixx any character woth an angle based recovery has these options
Also, Mango has been in and still is in Mew2King's head for years. Mew2King cannot fight Mango at all.

 

[Phan7om]

Quick change that TL placement before Lunchables sees it.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Quick change that TL placement before Lunchables sees it.

Yeah, I still don't understand why everyone ranks TL as Bottom Tier, he's actually quite good!

 

[mimgrim]

Wow . That's the worst tier list I have ever seen. It just is.

"This stuff below is out of date."

Reading comprehension yo.

....

Anyway. Fox is a bit on the overrated side for P:M imo, I don't think he is the best character anyway, but he still has some unhealthy design to him. Yes he can get combo'd hard due to his fastfaller status, but that's about it. You have to actually be able to get in on Fox in the first place, and this is easier said then done. The main thing I dislike is how he has so many great defensive options on top of great offensive options. It's just too much. Other top tiers have similar issues however. I'm not saying Fox shouldn't have any defensive options, just that they shouldn't be as good as they currently are. I just think it's obnoxious that certain characters have such great options for offense and defense while the majority of other character are more focused towards one or the other or the ones that have both fall more under "have decent to good options for both". Either give all characters great offensive and defensive options or tone down at least one aspect of the characters with great offensive and defensive options.

Does anyone legitimately love to play as Fox? Like in both Melee and PM? Something about the character just clicks. I never feel limited as him due to the amount of options I have. So many possible approaches that are viable and ways to use him. You have speed, power, and versatility.

I loved to play as him when I was more of a casual Smasher, but that was before I was trying to get into competitive play and knew jack ****. He was fun then. However once I got into competitive play, well... it just didn't click well. Just too technical for my liking.

....

I still don't get why people but Toon Link at bottom tier. It just doesn't make sense. And I have yet too see anyone actually give a reason why he is bottom tier. :L

 

[Phan7om]

A lot of people say hes bottom tier solely because his recovery is bad, and then they put characters with similar/worse recoveries at mid/high tier... not that I agree, just sayin.

 

[mimgrim]

A lot of people say hes bottom tier solely because his recovery is bad, and then they put characters with similar/worse recoveries at mid/high tier.

To anyone who says Toon Link has a bad recovery;

Hard =/= bad. Otherwise Fox would be low tier lol.

 

[jtm94]

You do not need to be good to have a valuable opinion. Everyone is subject to personal bias.
Fox having some bad MUs in this game is not balance, he still dominates most of the cast handily and can go even with the current best characters at worst.
Characters are not given throws specifically to beat Fox. In order for throws to have any type of use they either need to be strong, or not send characters with an average fall speed that far. Fox and his other fast falling comrades seem to not go as far from these throws. Correlation does not mean causation, your arguments are truly objectively bad.

Fox gets punished extremely hard in Melee as it is against Marth on Final Destination. That MU on that stage is even at best for Marth because Fox can circumvent Marth's punish game entirely. Just like how you can play around Ice Climbers wobbling. Saying Ice Climbers are broken because they can 0 death any character isn't a good argument because it can be played around, that is the epitome of a punish.

I wonder if tweaks will be made to certain moves with the lessening of recoveries. Mario's bair will become one of the best moves for example.