Tier List Speculation

[CyberZixx]

I hope fox does gets hit with the nerf bat. Character is silly and if other characters are getting toned down he'd be the best by a larger margin. No one wants that.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

edit: woOPS double post. DONT DRINK DURING THE DAY KIDS

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think I've ever once seen someone say wario sucks

I have seen people call him broken (all of whom are bad players or players who have very little experience against Wario) and then everyone else says he's mid-tier (troof).

 

[1FD]

he can be beaten by a more developed meta.

o.O THAT IS ALL FACE
THAT IS ALL
Wario broke the game kind of when he could slide with side b
but that doesn't count because last years flavor

 

[Spiffykins]

I have seen people call him broken (all of whom are bad players or players who have very little experience against Wario) and then everyone else says he's mid-tier (troof).

that's cuz Wario IS broken if you have very little experience against him

 

[CyberZixx]

that's cuz Wario IS broken if you have very little experience against him

I don't think it is fair to call a character broken if the player lack experience vs them. With lack of knowledge Zelda and especially Lucario seem broken too. Seriously Lucario has so many mechanics unique to him if you don't understand them all you are gonna get rolled over.

 

[Phan7om]

Bowser's Fsmash is broken cuz i dont know how to move

 

[Spiffykins]

I don't think it is fair to call a character broken if the player lack experience vs them. With lack of knowledge Zelda and especially Lucario seem broken too. Seriously Lucario has so many mechanics unique to him if you don't understand them all you are gonna get rolled over.

i need to start putting this at the end of all my posts

 

[victinivcreate1]

Fox is still capable of beating any of the top characters and dominating the rest. It's still a problem even if he has a bad MU or so, that doesn't balance anything out.

Diddy's recovery is easy to stop, but by the time he really falls he can initiate it again and just keep attempting repeatedly to make it back or overshoot the edge entirely. Barrels don't do that much, but sometimes both hit and it puts the defender in a bad spot. Once his recovery is normalized I think he can be beaten by a more developed meta.

Mewtwo has been too good the moment I saw the release trailer. Teleport is like MK nado in Brawl, it be over there, yeah it be over there, try to air dodge at the ground and shadow claw will be over there.

I also don't know what Pit's deal is. Even if he is good I feel like I'd rather face him than the other chars still, but he also has decent recovery. Maybe too much hitstun on fair? that's the BnB of everything, dair to fair to fair to fair arrow fair dead.

Teleport aerials are not safe on shield. Teleport HOVER aerials are safe on shield (cough nair). Remove hovering out of Teleport and the main complaint about him is gone.

Once again people are complaining about Mewtwo and not even knowing whats broken about him

Pit is jank because he can carry you across the stage for free and still have time to arrow, and then recover.

Diddy's recovery requires too much finesse to actually punish. I mean if you attack Up B at wrong angle, the barrels will stage spike you.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Diddy's recovery requires too much finesse to actually punish. I mean if you attack Up B at wrong angle, the barrels will stage spike you.

I'm sorry, but couldn't you edgeguard him?

But I do agree, Recovery Insurance Barrels need to go.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Whoever can explain to me what the big deal was about wario's old side-b slide will have me like them incrementally more for a short period of time.

 

[FreeGamer]

Safe on block, gave the move too little commitment and too many mixups in some people's eyes, etc

 

[Frost | Odds]

I have seen people call him broken (all of whom are bad players or players who have very little experience against Wario) and then everyone else says he's mid-tier (troof).

I think it's more that he has a ton of really awful matchups, and then very few that are much in his favor

 

[Oracle]

No wario is broken he has rainbow fsmash tackle

 

[Mr.Pickle]

He has a decent matchup spread, I only think he has a couple bad matchups. I can't see any sound logic to someone claiming that wario being op or something....except oracle, he makes a pretty good point. Rainbow tackle too stronk.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it's more that he has a ton of really awful matchups, and then very few that are much in his favor

I really don't think his toolkit is polarized enough to where he beats characters badly. Most of his good matchups are often 6-4 at best.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I really don't think his toolkit is polarized enough to where he beats characters badly. Most of his good matchups are often 6-4 at best.

Indeed. I'd call this a good thing. It just makes him feel kinda lackluster compared to a lot of the better characters atm, but that should be mostly mended with the apparent upcoming recovery changes.

 

[steelguttey]

wario may be mid tier but he is top tier at making his opponent feel hella stupid

 

[Strong Badam]

No, that's Wario players, not Wario!

 

[Mr.Random]

Fox is still capable of beating any of the top characters and dominating the rest. It's still a problem even if he has a bad MU or so, that doesn't balance anything out.

No I know he needs a nerf just talking specifically about Up smash though. I believe that it should function similar to Pikachu's. The back part of his up smash actually has decent power and can catch people of guard causing poor DI. I believe I got killed by the back part at 110 due to poor DI. The move itself is fine but the back part shouldn't do anything like Pikachu's and the beginning should have to be spaced to have the insane 18 damage hitbox. So like I said make it so you have to space it for the middle or the tip of his foot and make the other parts do 16 damage with slightly less growth.

 

[MLGF]

Fox's Up B should have more lag on landing, if we're nerfing recoveries around the board then bias should be avoided.

 

[Zx2963]

Fox's Up B should have more lag on landing, if we're nerfing recoveries around the board then bias should be avoided.

I'd go for slow then its animation so you can edgeguard it easier and slightly speed up Falco's

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I think more endlag is more reasonable, but that's just me. I don't think falco needs anything, unless his up b isn't exactly like melee, cause it needs to be.

 

[MLGF]

I'd go for slow then its animation so you can edgeguard it easier and slightly speed up Falco's

That'll just make it easier to edgehog, not force the person who is trying to recover to put more thought into it.

 

[trash?]

even slight endlag solves the problem tbh, it's why sheik has godly edgeguarding but only okay recovery, b/c the upb goes far but if you force them to recover back on-stage it's easily punishable

 

[Frost | Odds]

Adding endlag to Fox's upsmash will make the meleetists even angrier, due to messing up their timings ever so slightly. What's wrong with just a KB growth decrease?

 

[CORY]

because they'll be mad about that, too.

if you're gonna piss them off, may as well make sure you're making a good fix.

 

[CyberZixx]

Exactly. Fox should be treated like any of the brawl characters, and have PMDT have total control over his design. I like Wolf far more than Fox and Falco so I bet they would do good.

 

[Mr.Random]

Fox's Up B should have more lag on landing, if we're nerfing recoveries around the board then bias should be avoided.

No considering how much start up it has it is unnecessary. Side B I agree with having like 2 more frames of lag.

 

[victinivcreate1]

If people want Fox nerfed, I'm calling all of you out as lazy people who don't want to work hard to learn a MU. Fox is much stronger in Melee and he has even MUs, and not just his clone Falco. Fox has many more even MUs in PM.

You guys want Fox nerfed? I say learn the MU, or stay bad at the game. Fox is nowhere near as powerful as he was in Melee.

 

[Ripple]

he has even MUs because he can't bair edgeguard anymore because of recoveries. once rrecoveries go and his up-b is fixed he'll be back to S tier status

 

[Deleted member]

iirc fox has 4 frames of landing lag from up b. 4 frames. 4.

but no its melee can't touch that ****

 

[steelguttey]

can we just have a ****ing fox discussion thread cause im sick of talking about that piece of ****

 

[victinivcreate1]

All of these Fox johns. Sounds like someone needs to practice the MU.

 

[Subtle One]

Ness isn't even in the game anymore with a recovery nerf and ya'll arguing Fox for the 12th year

 

[mimgrim]

I don't really have a gripe of Fox in P:M, or even Melee lol. I think he's a bit on the overrated site a bit in P:M. But that doesn't means he doesn't have ridiculous traits to him that are on the unhealthy side, but other characters can have the same thing said about them as well.

 

[Phan7om]

4 frames is autocancel landing lag

 

[Resyndicated]

Lucas feels a bit outreached, especially by blue-haired swordsmen. Soft counters though, just have to be more defensive.
However, he needs space and movement. I feel that Snake's a pretty harsh counter.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Lucas feels a bit outreached, especially by blue-haired swordsmen. Soft counters though, just have to be more defensive.
However, he needs space and movement. I feel that Snake's a pretty harsh counter.

Lucas is nearly OP. I do need to learn the MU more, but he has a PLETHORA of tools.

 

[Resyndicated]

Lucas is nearly OP. I do need to learn the MU more, but he has a PLETHORA of tools.

I often have problems against Snake as Lucas and Pink Fresh lost twice to Rolex, one time 2-0. I think it's pretty clear that Snake is a decent counterpick to Lucas.
But for blue-haired swordsmen, I guess you're right. They are just hard to approach from what I've played against them, but once you do...