Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

if you stomp a luigi at 50% he will have the same amount of stun that a fox will at 50%. floaties do not have less hitstun, they just travel a distance where you think you should normally combo them but can't

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nah dude I promise you, that's not how it works. Floaties appear to suffer less hitstun because hits of the same strength send them farther upward than a faster falling character. Hits of the same knockback strength have the same number of hitstun frames every time, but because floaties are sent farther, it takes longer to reach them for a follow-up, giving more time for their hitstun to end and for them to be able to throw out a nair.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[Shokio]

Hm, I see. That makes sense. I've been told otherwise, but I guess when you think about it it's basically the same effect. Thanks for the clarification guys. #TheMoreYouKnow

 

[JCOnyx]

I could have sworn that gravity or weight has some sort impact on hitstun, but I might just be thinking of how one of those values impact throws. The physics behind Smash are so strange and difficult to grasp sometimes.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Weight affects knockback, in most cases at least, which determines hitstun. At the same percents when hit by the same move, heavies suffer less knockback and thus fly less distance and have less frames of hitstun. But at the right percents a heavy will suffer just as much knockback and hitstun as a light character. Not all moves' knockback is affected by weight though, most notably unaffected are all throws. But throws in general are slowed down by weight, meaning the animation takes longer to start and end, so following up throws on heavies can be more difficult.

Weight (heavy, light, and inbetween) is not to be confused with gravity and terminal velocity (both of which factor in who appears floaty or fast falling).

 

[Ripple]

edit: I'm drunk, I went home

 

[JCOnyx]

Wait, so that means that Yoshi does suffer less hitstun at low percents because he's one of the heaviest characters in the game (don't quote me but I believe he's 4th).

... And now I'm confused again. I know for a fact that weight does in fact impact the speed of throws and makes the endlag on them feel ridiculous. So I thought DF had his facts straight there. I'll probably look into it myself later, but I don't really feel like it since it's so late lol. Tourney in the morning.

 

[Bleck]

Wait, so that means that Yoshi does suffer less hitstun at low percents

no man it means like the complete opposite of that opposite thing that someone just claimed was the opposite come on

But yeah, I think DF is right here, but I'm not sure?

 

[Shokio]

Ok, this is kinda getting jumbled now lol. So I'll just say, "Yoshi is harder to combo then the average character."
There we go.

 

[DMG]

Weight impacts most throws ya. Heavier characters tend to get away from stuff at lower % with the ability to jump out or trade hits.

 

[Zx2963]

Ok, this is kinda getting jumbled now lol. So I'll just say, "Yoshi is harder to combo then the average character."
There we go.

I've seen Yoshi take a knee to the face at 50 and barely flinch

 

[Strong Badam]

if you stomp a luigi at 50% he will have the same amount of stun that a fox will at 50%. floaties do not have less hitstun, they just travel a distance where you think you should normally combo them but can't

Fox has more because he weighs less. A better example would be characters who weigh the same such as mario and luigi or Pikachu and Falco. Characters still have varying kb/hitstun resistance in the form of their weight attribute, but their terminal velocity and falling speed acceleration are huge factors in determining combo ability.

 

[Ace55]

what did I just say?

no matter what, floaties will suffer the same amount of hitstun as a heavy when hit by the same move at the same %

knee at 0? same for jiggs and bowser

knee at 100? same for jiggs and bowser

knee at XX? same no matter what


weight is simply knockback resistance multiplier


and yes, ALL moves are affected by weight

Being floaty or being heavy isn't mutually exclusive, I guess you meant 'fastfaller' when you said heavy. But anyway, Bowser suffers less knockback then Jiggs from most moves, thus he also suffers less hitstun from most moves.

And how does weight influence Falcon's upthrow (and similar throws)?

 

[steelguttey]

god damn it did i miss the olimar circlejerk

 

[menotyou135]

 

[MLGF]

So I'm really split on the quality of Ike.
I dunno, at times he feels amazing, other times he feels like trash. He's just kinda... weird.

 

[Ripple]

damn it, I was thinking ff vs floaty the whole time. not weight. curses on drunkin me. I'm embaressed

 

[didds]

Well he might have got the hitstun thing wrong, but @ Shokio is definitely right about one thing

Yoshi is a bossssssssss

Who else has an effective Dash OoS?

 

[Zx2963]

So I'm really split on the quality of Ike.
I dunno, at times he feels amazing, other times he feels like trash. He's just kinda... weird.

Ike is amazing

 

[DMG]

And how does weight influence Falcon's upthrow (and similar throws)?

Falcon Uthrow may be one of the rare throws that is not affected by weight (I can't remember at this time, my gut says it does not change). His Dthrow certainly goes slower on heavies.

 

[Ace55]

Falcon Uthrow may be one of the rare throws that is not affected by weight (I can't remember at this time, my gut says it does not change). His Dthrow certainly goes slower on heavies.

Yeah Falcon's upthrow animation length seems to completely ignore weight. I'm pretty sure Wario's upthrow has it too, can't think of many others. Probably Ganon's melee upthrow.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sheik's dthrow, and in PM, her bthrow
ROB's dthrow and uthrow also

 

[Comprehend13]

I believe Olimar's throws fit into this category as well

 

[steelguttey]

I believe Olimar's throws fit into this category as well

nope

 

[Comprehend13]

nope

http://smashboards.com/threads/captaining-project-m-olimar-discussion.342671/page-7

I don't play Olimar haha, but that's where I got my info from.

 

[Strong Badam]

Falcon Uthrow may be one of the rare throws that is not affected by weight (I can't remember at this time, my gut says it does not change). His Dthrow certainly goes slower on heavies.

Several throws riddled throughout the game are independent

 

[DMG]

How many new ones for PM? Melee didn't have that many iirc

 

[Jacob29]

Everytime I play an Ike they play a different playstyle.

I've seen an Ike that focus'd on grabbing out of quickdraw. An ike that focussed on jabs and fAir spacing. An ike that spammed quickdraw (got me into a 3hit combo with it once I was pretty damn confused), and then just an all around ike.

I think he is actually really well designed, the fact that all 4 of them played in really key different styles and still did pretty well shows that.

 

[jtm94]

More and more I am starting to appreciate the idea of no more huge changes. There are lot of amazing high mid characters and if the top tier gets hindered too far we end up in the same situation, but with different characters. Just the little things need tweaked that are openly ridiculous.

Would Mewtwo lose top tier status if he could not act out of aerial teleport? Would Mario be bad if he didn't even have fireballs?
I still would consider them amazing characters, but it is hard to tell how much their meta game changes off of that. I guess if Mewtwo loses approaches shadow ball becomes more likely to be abused, and Mario with no projectile would be more prone to dash dance camping. He does have some decent autocancels that seem like they are safe on shield.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

New blog post on P:M website today. General recovery nerfing confirmed for 3.5. I am so excited ​

 

[Zx2963]

Were going to have to make a new tier list when 3.5 comes around

 

[Bleck]

every time the people from the mod that reintroduces the melee airdodge say "natural, flowing movement" I laugh out loud

"We realize that the community wants to let the metagame develop unperturbed as much as possible, and so we’ve completed this global review of longevity and recovery we’ve made sure that our alterations were supported both by the general requests of the community and the guidelines of our original mission statement."

so basically "nerf all the fun characters so we can play as fox again"

 

[Circle_Breaker]

wavedash is the definition of flow what are you laughing about I don't get it. they didn't say it was realistic or anything.

Edit:

so basically "nerf all the fun characters so we can play as fox again"

Maybe if the only thing keeping these characters in the same league as Fox is their stupid recoveries they need buffing to other aspects of their play. Stupid recoveries feel stupid when I use them, when opponents use them, and when I see them on stream. They're generally stupid and bad for the game.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

every time the people from the mod that reintroduces the melee airdodge say "natural, flowing movement" I laugh out loud

"We realize that the community wants to let the metagame develop unperturbed as much as possible, and so we’ve completed this global review of longevity and recovery we’ve made sure that our alterations were supported both by the general requests of the community and the guidelines of our original mission statement."

so basically "nerf all the fun characters so we can play as fox again"

Aren't you always ranting about people whining over Smash 4 things when they haven't even played the game?
I get the criticism and all, but you don't exactly have a lot to go off of as to how drastic the nerfs will be, or who they'll affect.

 

[trash?]

every time the people from the mod that reintroduces the melee airdodge say "natural, flowing movement" I laugh out loud

"We realize that the community wants to let the metagame develop unperturbed as much as possible, and so we’ve completed this global review of longevity and recovery we’ve made sure that our alterations were supported both by the general requests of the community and the guidelines of our original mission statement."

so basically "nerf all the fun characters so we can play as fox again"

except it was considered across the board that the recovery:edgeguard ratio was a bit silly, even by most PM-centric players

you're being a gigantic child about a change only you've been extremely against. if you want brawl so badly just play brawl fer christ sake

 

[Phan7om]

fo realzies

 

[Zx2963]

every time the people from the mod that reintroduces the melee airdodge say "natural, flowing movement" I laugh out loud

"We realize that the community wants to let the metagame develop unperturbed as much as possible, and so we’ve completed this global review of longevity and recovery we’ve made sure that our alterations were supported both by the general requests of the community and the guidelines of our original mission statement."

so basically "nerf all the fun characters so we can play as fox again"

Some peoples recoveries were by far broken...

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Everytime I play an Ike they play a different playstyle.

I've seen an Ike that focus'd on grabbing out of quickdraw. An ike that focussed on jabs and fAir spacing. An ike that spammed quickdraw (got me into a 3hit combo with it once I was pretty damn confused), and then just an all around ike.

I think he is actually really well designed, the fact that all 4 of them played in really key different styles and still did pretty well shows that.

Characters who's recoveries I believe should not be changed very much in 3.5 are:

: An okay above and beside stage recovery and a pretty bad below stage one. This balances his combo and spacing game.
: A very versatile above stage recovery and okay below stage recovery. Balanced by his lack of a third jump.
: A great beside stage recovery, okay below stage recovery and a bad above stage recovery (Hard for him to get down). Pretty balanced but a small change would be okay I guess, maybe a change to his Down-B...
: Amazing recovery from any position but highly susceptible to Gimps and Edgeguards. Also quite slow to start up and a pain to sweetspot with. If anything, his PKT2 should have less priority.
: An amazing recovery from anywhere together, but incredibly sub-par when alone.
: A horrible below stage recovery and bad beside and above stage one balances the fact he has one of the best on stage presences in the game.
: He really only has his Up-B to recover, Side-B is quite easy to punish but can be a good mixup. Made up for by his Cargo and Sakurai Combo.
: A really good recovery all around, but one that's incredibly reliant on his Pikmin. Really balanced IMO.
: Okay above stage recovery and good beside and below stage recoveries. Made up for by her needles and bAir.
: An amazing Beside Stage recovery, a good below stage recovery and an okay above stage recovery. IMO, he's what everyone's recovery should be balanced around.

I'm tired of naming them all and I believe I've went over all of the notable ones so here's the rest:


I'm sure I missed many but oh well.

 

[Rᴏb]

"Recoveries are fine" peeps get BTFO

 

[steelguttey]

oh god im so scared

the top 3 in zenith right now is pit, diddy and mewtwo.

the amount of circlejerking that is about to happen is ridiculous