Tier List Speculation

[shairn]

What was the difference?

 

[Bleck]

In Brawl, it's faster and links together better, but doesn't aid in his recovery as much. On the other hand, his Brawl neutral special gives forward momentum in the air to balance out the recovery nerf.

 

[9bit]

DDD has the best chance of being good if recoveries plan on being nerffed

The next patch/update... year of DDD

 

[Strong Badam]

DooDooDooze will be real

 

[trash?]

but recoveries being nerfed across the line means DDD doesn't get his silly upb that makes any vertically-based edgeguards useless ;;

buff waddle-dash to go so far that it becomes a nerf due to there being no use cases behind teleporting to the blast zone from the other side of the screen, imo

 

[1FD]

DooDooDooze will be real

*CONFIRMED
#PMDEVSNEVERLIE

Gimme a break, why the hell would toonlink be bottom tier? At the least he would be solid mid tier.

I'm also really confused about that one, Ness, and Luigi.
TL has everything he could ask for. What does he need to be above low tier? His 2.1 Grab or something? Like really he's pretty awesome.
Ness bottom? He has a simpler game in neutral or whatever and he gets slack for that but come on, look at those combos off a hit! Same with Luigi. They're so strong and fast and they only need a few options to function so the rest is GRAVAY BABAY

 

[Paradoxium]

My opinions on Ness are while he isn't necessarily a bad character, there are a large number of characters better than him, which makes him low tier.

I think Luigi needs a better up b for recovering, and I think his side b needs to be able to grab ledges. Currently I think he might be a bad character, but I have no experience with Luigi so I dunno.

but Toon Link is ****ing good, Up B combos for daaaaaaaayyyyyyzzzzzzz

 

[1FD]

My opinions on Ness are while he isn't necessarily a bad character, there are a large number of characters better than him, which makes him low tier.

I think Luigi needs a better up b for recovering, and I think his side b needs to be able to grab ledges. Currently I think he might be a bad character, but I have no experience with Luigi so I dunno.

but Toon Link is ****ing good, Up B combos for daaaaaaaayyyyyyzzzzzzz

I'm probs pretty bias with Ness for some reasons, like 1) Never seen good ness's aside from bamesy tenki AKA never seen awestime + 2 heard Awestime and other good ness's abuse PK fire and the 2 i've played never really use it much in neutral unless it's either gonna hit you unless you make the 1 perfect choice or it's off a reaction to something you do and is a free hit
Ness scares me
I'm abuseable I guess though lol

Luigi already got a way better up b than melee, fast and sweetspots fast and has decent movement, and side B DOES snap to ledges, you could even say his Down b sweetspots too since there's like negative-lag at the end of it. His recovery is his worse trait probs still but it's not the end of the game. His recovery won't be nerfed in the recoverynerf patch that's for sure haha
Also I wouldn't want his upB to change much because storing misfire by checking every 1/3rd of a second or whatever on the ledge until you have one is greatly helped by the Upb as it is. Not just between stocks but you gotta be Pika or M2 to snag ledge on reaction to him doing that stuff

 

[DMG]

Awestin is a lot more than PK Fire. If you haven't seen him, and take the liberty to assume, you prob shouldn't.

 

[1FD]

Where did you even get that I said awestin and all other Ness's are just pkfire and nothing else?
LMAO

 

[CORY]

Where did you even get that I said awestin and all other Ness's are just pkfire and nothing else?
LMAO

probably this

i AKA never seen awestime + 2 heard Awestime and other good ness's abuse PK fire

 

[Chesstiger2612]

*CONFIRMED
I'm also really confused about that one, Ness, and Luigi.
TL has everything he could ask for. What does he need to be above low tier? His 2.1 Grab or something? Like really he's pretty awesome.
Ness bottom? He has a simpler game in neutral or whatever and he gets slack for that but come on, look at those combos off a hit! Same with Luigi. They're so strong and fast and they only need a few options to function so the rest is GRAVAY BABAY

Toon Link has problems against shields and close combat neutral game (both partially caused by his grab and partially by other factors).
Ness has a lack of tools in many situations (tool amount is enough but many of them are designed for similar situations so there are plenty of situations where he has a number of tools making him very predictable).
The same with Luigi, his best approaches involve his WD and his grab hasn't got enough range to make the risk-reward comfortable on its own, and everything else is somehow unsafe.
(Just as watered down explanations, I don't think these characters are unviable but they are subpar.)

For Toon Link, the best thing for him would be another anti-shield option or buffing an existing one, opinions differ how that can be reached the best way (I personally would like to see his zair go through shields, while increasing its endlag to not be spammable).
For Ness, there are multiple ways of dealing with this issue: more range (wouldn't really fit in his design imo), less predictable (one concrete change for that might be the fair hitbox lasting even longer to buff fair/pk fire mixups, because you don't want to shield the pk fire; but with his current fair and the startup on the pkfire, when he didn't do the pk fire until a certain point, the option basically is away which makes the fair predictable; if ness starts doing something early, it has to be the pk fire right now but with the change it would be less predictable), versatility (faster magnet, can have some uses similar to the shine then) or reworking his normals...
Luigi needs a stronger neutral mainly, I would keep it ground based because of his uniqueness so maybe IASAs on some normals or even grounded fireball, a few tiny mechanic tweaks involving momentum etc would also help him enough.

 

[didds]

Luigi has trouble because he can't do **** if you can lock down his ground movement. So much reliance on wavedashing and wavelanding to get in. Certain projectiles just kill him, I can't imagine trying to weave through fireballs as a Luigi

 

[Paradoxium]

Toon Link has problems against shields and close combat neutral game (both partially caused by his grab and partially by other factors).

For Toon Link, the best thing for him would be another anti-shield option or buffing an existing one, opinions differ how that can be reached the best way (I personally would like to see his zair go through shields, while increasing its endlag to not be spammable).

Imo shields are good against Toon Link's projectiles but shielding still puts you in a bad position against tink.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Not really. Toon Link has ways to punish the OoS option and you can't just wait in your shield for the entire time, but if
you think of how powerful shielding can even be against characters with good anti-shields, it is scary for Toon Link. I agree with you if you are shielding just for defensive purposes, because Toon Link isn't under any pressure and can wait for the out of shield while staying in safe distance, trying to punish afterwards. But run-in-shield, shield mixups after semi-punishable moves, dash behind->shield, crossup aerial -> shield and basically any shielding in the metagame that is combined with a threat is a bigger risk for Toon Link than for other characters.

 

[menotyou135]

This is my first tier list for PM based off my own experiences.

S Tier


A Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier


F Tier

 

[Chesstiger2612]

My tier list:

Spoiler

Fox
Mewtwo
Falco
Diddy Kong
Meta Knight
Sheik
Pit
Mario
Sonic
Lucas
Samus
Wolf
Link
Ivysaur
Snake
Yoshi
Zelda
Charizard
Marth
Wario
Ike
Squirtle
ROB
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Captain Falcon
Lucario
Peach
Ness
Game & Watch
Roy
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Bowser
Luigi
King Dedede
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Little annotations:
Doesn't necessarily repesent the current metagame. Some placements are only justified by optimal play of the respective character, which might be very hard to do / afford high amounts of patience.
It is also really really close between around 15 and 25.
imho the balance should be done around the strenghts of characters rated around 15 or slightly above.

 

[Kati]

I can sweet spot with Luigi's missile more than half the time and I barely play Luigi.

But a better up b would be cool. I miss 64's.

@ Paradoxium

 

[Circle_Breaker]

This is my first tier list for PM based off my own experiences.

S Tier


A Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier


F Tier

Link in the same tier as Roy and G&W? Tink in the same tier as Jigglypuff? Sheik and Peach with Ganon, D3 and DK? Zamus, Zelda, Kirby, Lucario with Lucas, Wolf, and Diddy?

Ack I just got a headache. Sheik is perhaps the most ridiculous placement.

And people should just make an "I Don't Know" tier for IC's instead of just sticking them at the absolute bottom.

 

[Paradoxium]

I can sweet spot with Luigi's missile more than half the time and I barely play Luigi.

But a better up b would be cool. I miss 64's.

@ Paradoxium

Sorry lol I'm very miss informed then, I didn't know Luigi could sweet spot his side B. Shows how much I know about him haha

Not really. Toon Link has ways to punish the OoS option and you can't just wait in your shield for the entire time, but if
you think of how powerful shielding can even be against characters with good anti-shields, it is scary for Toon Link. I agree with you if you are shielding just for defensive purposes, because Toon Link isn't under any pressure and can wait for the out of shield while staying in safe distance, trying to punish afterwards. But run-in-shield, shield mixups after semi-punishable moves, dash behind->shield, crossup aerial -> shield and basically any shielding in the metagame that is combined with a threat is a bigger risk for Toon Link than for other characters.

Meh, I still think if Tink does fine on shield's as long as he properly spaces his projectiles and Air moves. But this is just from personal experience and I'm not that good lol

 

[Kati]

Sorry lol I'm very miss informed then, I didn't know Luigi could sweet spot his side B. Shows how much I know about him haha



Meh, I still think if Tink does fine on shield's as long as he properly spaces his projectiles and Air moves. But this is just from personal experience and I'm not that good lol

Tbh it might not be a sweet spot in the traditional sense as he might be exposed above the ledge line, but yeah he can instantly grab the ledge without having to transition from the missile animation to a falling one.

 

[1FD]

Meh, I still think if Tink does fine on shield's as long as he properly spaces his projectiles and Air moves. But this is just from personal experience and I'm not that good lol

I'm totally sure TL throws bombs to make people shield so he can get that freeasballs pressure.
So yeah he does fine on shields, you know what's up.

probably this

lol wow well then
If -awestin and ness's other than the ones i've played don't do anything but pk fire- is how he interpreted -i've heard other good ness's abuse pk fire more than the ones i've played- then no wonder threads get derailed. LOL

Luigi needs a stronger neutral mainly, I would keep it ground based because of his uniqueness so maybe IASAs on some normals or even grounded fireball, a few tiny mechanic tweaks involving momentum etc would also help him enough.

There are actually some pretty slick momentum mechanics in PM that allow him to have ridic control over his ground positioning. This ain't melee and i ain't seen anybody apply this very well yet. Well, I know nobody has, since it's not a thing dicussed around here yet and the local weegees aren't even close to implementing his weirdasballs PM physics crawl and walking stuff yet.
Have you seen all the sliding and crawling dsmash and ftilt mixups he's got? I should make a giff of bamesy doing it. It doesn't make sense how you can predict or shut down his WD game when he can just shimmy along like a squirtle on speed.

 

[DMG]

You can mitigate it by taking advantage of the window where he cannot act, the landing lag after the airdodge. That window is big enough that you are usually forced to consider other inputs besides multiple wavedashes back to back for an approach, or deal with projectiles thrown at you in those windows, etc. Normally, that window to punish doesn't seem very big since most characters use it as a spacing tool backwards, not as a sliding approach. Luigi's one of the few characters where aiming to punish during that window (or threaten to so that he has to play with caution) makes sense.

Luigi players can mitigate this to a degree, by using different length WD's and by utilizing some of the crawl/jank stuff out of WD. Still, a character would much rather prefer a very strong Dash or DD game over a strong WD/sliding game. Being able to act and reposition literally instantly while you move is probably one of the most broken things you could achieve: Wavedashes fall short of that glorious achievement.

 

[1FD]

I think there's a weird stigma that Luigi relies completely on it too. His DD ain't terribad and compliments his crazy WD game enough that having a great DD would almost be -too- good. Throw that in with the epic tilts and smashes that lead to stocks and the jank PM new stuff and I still don't get how Luigi is seem as limited to WDs back and forth at all. Like... I don't think I ever see bamesy just do raw WDs back and forth more than once a match TOPS and yet that's like the norm. It's like saying Mewtwo does JUST TP NAIRS and nothing else. That TP Nair from Mewtwo is probably twice as frequent in a good Mewtwos game then raw repeated WDs from a good Luigis game. Yet it's like... not really the CORE of either of those characters. It's just kind of a thing that they have that's really good so it's iconic in that cool way.

 

[mimgrim]

Ah what the hell. I have yet to post an actual tier list as of it, so what they hey. It's probably going to be bad though.

*Ordering in each line is very minimal and is mainly only used for certain nuances, otherwise the ordering of each line is mostly random. Bigger gap between the lines mean the said characters are farther ahead/behind*














Now how bad is it? :L

 

[Zx2963]

_

Ah what the hell. I have yet to post an actual tier list as of it, so what they hey. It's probably going to be bad though.

*Ordering in each line is very minimal and is mainly only used for certain nuances, otherwise the ordering of each line is mostly random. Bigger gap between the lines mean the said characters are farther ahead/behind*














Now how bad is it? :L

EDIT: Nevermind, the tierlist is pretty accurate

 

[Animage]

Can someone make some kind of poll for a community tier list like in the old days already?
(or has it been done already?)

 

[Phan7om]

All tier lists look the same... askjfdpaisaskd;jaha

 

[Frost | Odds]

Now how bad is it? :L

Do you really want to know?

 

[mimgrim]

All tier lists look the same... askjfdpaisaskd;jaha

I dunno. Mine might have quite a few similarities to other ones but it also has quite a few differences as well.

Do you really want to know?

I sorta kinda expect people to disagree with it and think it is bad and hopefully explain why.

Ya know?

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm totally sure TL throws bombs to make people shield so he can get that freeasballs pressure.

Right up until they start catching and/or powershielding them, yes. It's a little less free then.

Re: the above: Peach may be better in PM but she does a lot worse in terms of matchups, especially against some of the upper members of the cast. Wolf doesn't belong in the same tier as Fox; I tend to put him closer to Falco. Mewtwo belongs in top tier for reasons present and presently underutilized. Wario is one tier too high imo. I'd hesitate to put ICs at rock bottom... actually I'd hesitate to put them anywhere right now. Janky little ****ers. There are other things but I feel like I'd be reaching more into opinions on them.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Can someone make some kind of poll for a community tier list like in the old days already?
(or has it been done already?)

@Ali Baba 177 already did this and people were ***** to him about it, LOL

 

[Xcite]

Which characters have the best match up spreads in the community's opinions?

 

[steelguttey]

Which characters have the best match up spreads in the community's opinions?

the good ones

 

[mimgrim]

Re: the above: Peach may be better in PM but she does a lot worse in terms of matchups, especially against some of the upper members of the cast.

Explain to me how and who.

Wolf doesn't belong in the same tier as Fox;

Why?

Mewtwo belongs in top tier for reasons present and presently underutilized.

Possibly. But I'm not completely convinced yet. I think most of it is people not knowing how to deal with him.

Wario is one tier too high imo.

Explain.

I'd hesitate to put ICs at rock bottom... actually I'd hesitate to put them anywhere right now. Janky little ****ers.

That's why they are in the bottom.

There are other things but I feel like I'd be reaching more into opinions on them.

You're already delving into opinions anyway.

 

[steelguttey]

so are we all agreeing that ice climbers are on the "what the **** are these things how do we play them" tier?

 

[menotyou135]

Which characters have the best match up spreads in the community's opinions?

Well, since jigglypuff and peach are underperforming in the current metagame compared to their melee incarnations, I would say that the tier list of this game isn't so much based on how good a character is, but rather how good of a matchup spread they have. Therefore, the high tier ones are the ones with a good matchup spread and the lower tier ones are the ones with worse matchup spreads.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

so are we all agreeing that ice climbers are on the "what the **** are these things how do we play them" tier?

Just give the game 5 years and they will be borderline broken (in theory) but still under-represented in tournaments.

Edit: Also, just checked out the Melee M/U chart. How does Pika place where he does in the tier list with such a **** spread? Seriously, a lot worse than Samus, slightly worse than Ganondorf, and even/slightly worse than Mario.

 

[DMG]

Which Melee MU chart did you check? A lot of them are out of date by current standards

 

[Circle_Breaker]

On like smash wiki. Googled melee matchup chart.