Tier List Speculation

[Kati]

honestly, i'd rather have ganon get a good grab range, overall (a bit lower and more than trex arm forward) and then just get rid of all the chaingrabs they possibly can.

then give him a set up dthrow and give more utility to b/fthrows (di mixups or a kill throw or make one a gimping setup something like that.)

pmbr could easily replace his grab animation with vbrawl's jab. vbrawl's jab is openhanded. I even managed to make the swap with brawlbox and I'm a nublet.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

What are Falco's bad MUs?

Mewtwo, Pit, Lucas, and Meta Knight just off the top of my head.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo, Pit, Lucas, and Meta Knight just off the top of my head.

All of whom are likely recipients of at least mild whacks with the nerf bat.

I actually think Bowser might beat Falco due to his gahlike cc/dtilt/crawl, punish game, and Falco's pretty bad grab game.

 

[Deleted member]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure both Marth and Ganon are pretty wildly underrated. Marth especially has one of the most consistent matchup spreads in the game.

consistently bad maybe

 

[didds]

but he haz a sword tho

 

[Frost | Odds]

@Umbreon how's that? He's got decent MUs against all the melee top tiers, is one of the few who can compete with mewtwo, Ivy, and Lucas, he probably beats diddy, and can outspace Pit.

 

[1FD]

Dedede exists outside of tier lists

This^

@ 1FD You're going to have to justify these Pika and luigi placements.
Why is Peach so high? Why is she even higher than Fox?
For that matter, why's Fox apparently mid-tier?

If pika and luigi are considered low by most of the community then that's cool but we got hate for putting lucas sonic mewtwo diddy yoshi zss and samus for being that high just as much when this was posted in Jan. I don't know how to explain why we think Pika and Luigi are good just like I don't know how to explain why the others are good.

Basically they just do smash-stuff REALLY GOOD. Like, never getting hit if they don't want to, and can be able to stay in a position where they can hit the opponent with the things that will lead to taking stocks. :/
If you just play the game where you focus on not getting hit and always being in an annoying area they're just hard to deal with. Basically what Anther and Nausicaa discussed on the Pika boards like half a year ago sums up how to make stuff work with these characters who can't just force opponents and do permanent walls of hitboxes or whatever. There's a reason people think these kinds of characters are bad other than them being bad characters and it has to do with the way people see them if anything.

Peach we think is really good and basically on par with Fox. Falco just under them but barely because of things like reflecting projectiles with no lag on shine and wavebouncing lasers helping him out more than it gets credit, and Falcon/Sheik/Marth in basically the same tier as each other but in that order with Falcon the best. This is just a super-divided version of the list for some reason, but the order still counts vaguely. But yeah Peach > Fox as far as we're concerned, could be the other way EASILY but this is what we're going with. She's just too solid with the buffs. Also <3 for Toad and it >>>>> projectiles, donno if that's a thing but it wasn't in Melee and I don't see talk of it around here but it's pretty good. I don't know what her weaknesses are even when she's kind of slow mobility or whatever. I play the character and I feel strongly that the character doesn't hold me back AT ALL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OF FORM and that's a good sign I guess. Same with every character I play. I don't play characters if I feel they can't do what I want them to do. lol



As the quote said, this is our LOCAL TIER LIST and has been since JANUARY and we're REALLY out of touch with the rest of the community. If it weren't for bamesy being on these forums a bit and then me taking over when he left none of us locals would even know about Zelda being considered annoying because WE ALL LOVE HER UP HERE lol
Or even that Evo happened and what the results were, for example. We're outsiders in a weird valley in the middle of nowhere and just happen to have good people playing the game which makes good players when they're around monks and crazy stuff. Hippyville mang

So as a result, a LOT of it is based on how good we all think each character is and collaborated into a discussion until we can all agree generally. Most of this is just from us helping each other find the stuff in the game and get better and goodness of characters just comes up in discussion naturally.

Also, how we determine how good SOME characters are is based a LOT on how well bamesy can show and explain the depths of the characters when he works with them since he's ridic good when he comes down from the mountains and it's almost a game of figuring out what it would be like to have his X character against his X character.
Like his Wolf scares the living hell out of me since when 2.1 came out he combod my Fox into Side B 4 STOCKS IN A ROW ON THE FIRST DAY OF 2.1 then did the SAME AGAINST MY PEACH and they're not even similar weights or anything. Then he showed me all the ways to do it and how easy and fluid it was from anywhere and anything and that was like the day it came out and in 2.1 it was even harder to do than now.

I'm not very good but I play Wolf a lot and browse the net for Wolf stuff and I STILL haven't seen another Wolf combo into Uptilts to Side B on anyone from Kirby to spacies and it feels like it's too free for Wolf. The metagame confuses me like that.
Then we all discuss why we think certain things about the characters. How to exploit weaknesses and get passed strengths and gives us trouble or makes things easy etc, and have nice sessions where we're just trying to figure out the game.

We had a fest recently and bamesy and tenki emailed me some stuff which I'll post soon and that hopefully makes more sense of this. I'm bad at explaining obviously







That might make things easier since the gaps are really small anyway

 

[didds]

he maybe goes even with diddy, beats him if diddy sucks at stage strikes

 

[1FD]

He's got decent MUs against all the melee top tiers, is one of the few who can compete with mewtwo, Ivy, and Lucas, he probably beats diddy, and can outspace Pit.

Are you talking about Marth?
He maybe does ok against Sheik and Jiggs and MAYBE Falco but against Fox Falcon and Peach I don't see how it can be anything but worse or much worse than in Melee and it wasn't great then even.
Pit I think craps on him and mewtwo and lucas can deal with him without ever being hit. Diddy and Ivy I can see since he can get passed their stuff and pressure them into getting grabbed/hit into grabs for combos but how is he supposed to he Fox Falcon Peach Pit Mewtwo Lucas without trading or having to make the read that can get him hit by something into a combo himself? haha

 

[Frost | Odds]

re: marth, camping with DD and fair mostly. Exactly what buffs did Peach get that have you so impressed? She was mediocre in melee, and seems little better here, especially with the rest of the cast buffed so hard. Pika has the same issues.

 

[DMG]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure both Marth and Ganon are pretty wildly underrated. Marth especially has one of the most consistent matchup spreads in the game.

His MU spread is ok. It's way less dominant, by like a factor of 5, compared to Melee. It doesn't help that we're still using stages that are absolutely massive and probably get abusive (Skyloft, Draculas, etc)

Even if we went back to 5-6 Melee stage list, he's just OK. I'd put him near the bottom of the list, of characters you would or should feel decently comfortable trying to solo a tourney with.

 

[1FD]

His MU spread is ok. It's way less dominant, by like a factor of 5, compared to Melee. It doesn't help that we're still using stages that are absolutely massive and probably get abusive (Skyloft, Draculas, etc)

Even if we went back to 5-6 Melee stage list, he's just OK. I'd put him near the bottom of the list, of characters you would or should feel decently comfortable trying to solo a tourney with.

^That

re: marth, camping with DD and fair mostly. Exactly what buffs did Peach get that have you so impressed? She was mediocre in melee, and seems little better here, especially with the rest of the cast buffed so hard. Pika has the same issues.

Mediocre in Melee?
WHAT
I can't do it, I just can't!
How can you say Pika DIDN'T get buffed hard? WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND HERE
Better hit-boxes everywhere dashing backwards out of dtilts better thunder uses and UPB BUFFED GALORE and that Bair THAT BAIR
With Peach maybe there's just less Peach talk around here but as mentioned small things like her Toad being good adds a lot and the Stage list is decent for her with lacking super high top plats outside a few additions, other than that it's just general improvements like her Utilt and ledge jump allowing her FC aerials and ledge dashes and stuff. Diverse cast helps her a lot too since she can deal with basically anything anyway.

Oh btw Marth trying to Fair a Peach if he's not already comboing her = dead Marth lol
DD is aight though, acceptable option against the queen of hit-boxes

 

[Desu_Maiden]

Ganondorf was buffed, so he is no longer bottom-tier in Project M.

 

[CORY]

no. most of the rest of the cast was buffed, he didn't get the tools to deal with the mobility and stage control characters have (the overarching metagame), so he's at the very least low, if not outright bottom tier.

kinda like jiggs transitioning from melee to pm. she should be good, but so much of the cast can just deal with jiggs' gameplan now that her good matchup spread against the melee top doesn't do enough anymore.

 

[Jams.]

I have a hunch that Deku_Maiden's post is a sarcastic remark against 1FD's argument that Pikachu should be higher since he got buffed from Melee. However, Poe's Law so I don't really know.

 

[1FD]

no. most of the rest of the cast was buffed, he didn't get the tools to deal with the mobility and stage control characters have (the overarching metagame), so he's at the very least low, if not outright bottom tier.

kinda like jiggs transitioning from melee to pm. she should be good, but so much of the cast can just deal with jiggs' gameplan now that her good matchup spread against the melee top doesn't do enough anymore.

I like to think there's a tier in the middle of middle tier special for Bowser and Jiggs and the REALLY REALLY polarizing people.
Because they're too polarizing to be bad or good. lol
Except Ganon

 

[mimgrim]

re: marth, camping with DD and fair mostly. Exactly what buffs did Peach get that have you so impressed? She was mediocre in melee, and seems little better here, especially with the rest of the cast buffed so hard. Pika has the same issues.

Wat. Watwatwatwatwatwatwatwat.

You do realize Peach is a top 6 character in Melee no? And is now a buffed version of herself from Melee.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I remember some saying, "Marth can't do very good punishes on tether character who do the force jump onto stage." Bruh, just yesterday, I seen KDJ uair, and then combo a lil then fsmash this guy who happened to be playing ivy. So disgust.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wat. Watwatwatwatwatwatwatwat.

You do realize Peach is a top 6 character in Melee no? And is now a buffed version of herself from Melee.

Huh. So she is. Sorry, for some reason I thought she was behind Ganon.

I stand fully corrected, though I still think most of the reason she's good in melee (great recovery, good gimps, strong downsmash, turnips) aren't nearly as relevant in PM.

 

[InfinityCollision]

against Fox... and Peach I don't see how it can be anything but worse or much worse than in Melee and it wasn't great then even.

You're gonna have to run that one by me again. Even Marth v Falcon hasn't changed that much.

EDIT: Nevermind the other thing. Odds is right about Peach in PM though, she may be slightly better but she doesn't fare as well in the new meta.

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon how's that? He's got decent MUs against all the melee top tiers, is one of the few who can compete with mewtwo, Ivy, and Lucas, he probably beats diddy, and can outspace Pit.

marth loses hard to lots of chars he was even with before like fox and sheik and mario, had no real redemption for his even matches before, and loses a lot of matches from the newer brawl cast like ZSS, pit, diddy, etc etc.

i don't think anyone beats diddy and even if they do it certainly isn't marth lol

outspacing pit is worth surprisingly little.

 

[DMG]

People probably beat Diddy, just not by a significant margin. I think he's a bit overrated, but there are a lot of characters from like slots 3-15 that people overhype so it's hard to say. If you're looking for an anti diddy character, it's not Marth. You'd be better off pretending this was Brawl and going Mario + never approaching.

I would love to see some good characters really flushed out. Samus imo is my prime candidate for being underlooked and far from optimized. She's not even complicated like Lucas, it's more that people haven't totally abused how good crawl form is. Most top PM Samus players are amazing with her fundamentals without using some of the cheese. I want the cheese: I need her cheese. It looks delicious

 

[DMG]

I remember some saying, "Marth can't do very good punishes on tether character who do the force jump onto stage." Bruh, just yesterday, I seen KDJ uair, and then combo a lil then fsmash this guy who happened to be playing ivy. So disgust.

That person may have been off. Marth can punish the forced jump, but he's very limited on harassing tethers offstage in meaningful ways. If the move isn't Dair, it basically won't stop them, so you're better off waiting onstage or timely getting the edge. If you do take the edge though, you have to be mindful of tether cancels into Upb or re-tethers to eat up some of your time.

 

[DrinkingFood]

marth loses hard to lots of chars he was even with before like fox and sheik

What's the difference besides more stages not being FD?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Sheik definitely does better against Marth in PM as several of her kit changes really help her out in that MU, but I'm curious about Fox myself.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah I gotta disagree that Marth vs Fox is worse for Marth than it was in Melee... Marth still has everything that made the matchup hard in Melee, and the changes from melee to PM mostly benefit him over Fox.

It's MUCH easier to consistently SDI out of the Fox uair, and that stall at the end of his up b is a definite buff. Fox hasn't changed much, but the upB curve really hinders the wall crawl, so avoiding edgeguards is a bit harder.

There's a bigger stage list now, so FD isn't a guarantee, but I don't think he needs it to go pretty even in the matchup.

I think it's about the same... Definitely not worse than Melee.

 

[DMG]

Stage wise, it's observably worse than Melee if you factor 3/5 sets. A guaranteed FD match is way stronger than the minor buffs for Marth + minor nerfs/awkward things for Fox. Especially with some PM tournaments deciding to label FD as an outright CP, so that they don't even have to waste a strike on it first game, it's hard to see where Marth does better.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That person may have been off. Marth can punish the forced jump, but he's very limited on harassing tethers offstage in meaningful ways. If the move isn't Dair, it basically won't stop them, so you're better off waiting onstage or timely getting the edge. If you do take the edge though, you have to be mindful of tether cancels into Upb or re-tethers to eat up some of your time.

It was stupid head umberon

 

[DMG]

I don't think his quote was for the forced jump though. I'm pretty sure he was talking about his general options vs tethers, where he would be correct. Who knows, you probably have the quote somewhere and I don't lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

As a ROB main I for one think we need a higher concentration of FD-like stages, either without platforms or with very occasional platform transformations. Stage width, boundary dimensions, and floor shape are all the variety I need in an FD alternate, who's with me

 

[TheDuckChris]

As a ROB main I for one think we need a higher concentration of FD-like stages, either without platforms or with very occasional platform transformations. Stage width, boundary dimensions, and floor shape are all the variety I need in an FD alternate, who's with me

So like Lylat with no top platforms? I could get into it. Stage list is definitely an interesting discussion and one that will affect tiers quite a bit. Marth on FD is a good example of how bigger list can hinder some chars, which I dont think is a bad thing

 

[DMG]

People hate FD more than they hate *insert legit bad PM stage*, so good luck getting different FD's

 

[DrinkingFood]

But dthrow chaingrabs 0->100->kill move (more accurately it's *earliest percent humanly possible to react to DI at*->100, so like, 20-100) are the only thing ROB has going for him against spacies. I need more FD.
GHZ-like stages work too tho, but when they can just ban those two every time I feel helpless.

 

[DMG]

First World ROB problems

I'd rather just remove the bad stages, or reformulate them to be good. Nobody in the full blown history of never has explained why Wario Ware needs those 2 top platforms or how they contribute to anything *not* cheesy (Wario Ware has potential but holy pooper scooper someone was silly when they made the top plats). Most people can sense something in their bones, that something's wrong with Skyloft. Dracula is huge. Are we really trying to make people like Ganon bad and Sonic better? Most stage lists tend to do a good job of that

 

[Bleck]

this flat featureless stage with platforms is better than this other flat featureless stage with platforms

 

[DMG]

Yep

10Yeps

10AdditionalEditNo'sForWWDraculaAndSkyloft

 

[DrinkingFood]

"featureless"
As in lacking features such as the ability to play smash bros on them? Last I checked that's a feature of FD and a pretty important one too

Also @ DMG don't you dare ****talk WW those top platforms are useful for so many things, vertical up-b's OoS, vertical combos, a unique recovery dynamic on a stage where characters die super early anyways, improved tech chase options when you can get them up there. You say "but why all the way over by the edge?" but I say "why do you want that in the middle again?"
It's like the best Samus stage next to PS1/2

 

[Bleck]

As in lacking features such as the ability to play smash bros on them?

What does this sentence even mean.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Being able to play smash bros on FD is a feature it does not lack
It's like saying a guy who shaved his head is hairless. No he isn't, his hair is just really short and on other parts of his body.

 

[Bleck]

I don't... understand.