Tier List Speculation

[Bleck]

shine is dumb

 

[Circle_Breaker]

yeah, well, mewtwo.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

nyanner nyanner boo boo, I say uhh . . . Bowser! He's top tier in Sm4sh already!

 

[victinivcreate1]

yeah, well, mewtwo and sonic.

I do admit to johns. But Sonic is still jank imo. And it bothers me why the PMBR decreased his running acceleration, and not made that his main approach. Sonic is known for speed (I mean its in his name, Sonic describes something moving very fast). More specifically running speed. Why is his main approach not his running?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Diddy secretly mid tier. Pit legitimately forgotten.

What do u smoke and where can I get it

 

[Zx2963]

I do admit to johns. But Sonic is still jank imo. And it bothers me why the PMBR decreased his running acceleration, and not made that his main approach. Sonic is known for speed (I mean its in his name, Sonic describes something moving very fast). More specifically running speed. Why is his main approach not his running?

I agree, they should also increase his spun dash speed, maybe reduce KB

 

[Broasty]

How's he do against Marth? I know the mu is awful in melee, but Luigi got some serious buff action.

I also assume Mario is tough mostly because of him caping your recovery...?

Might as well delve into it haha.

So as far as Marth goes, he's a tough matchup...but not as hard as the others I mentioned. Unlinke the others, you can bully Marth with Fireballs. Not only that, but Footstool->Downward Waveland results with you on his backside 100% of the time, which means he has to worry about you being above his head with the opportunity. Finally, the big thing is that Marth's edgeguards can be negated with really good DI and techs.

Mario on the other hand has those freaking fireballs that make approaching literally impossible with Luigi since you have to travel via ground since Luigi is so slow in the air. By the time you've gotten in...Mario FSmashes you and you're reset back to being screwed. Cape isn't the problem...being simply reacted to on stage and Fsmashed when you try to recover is a problem. However, this is coming from someone who almost always Sweetspots the ledge with UpB.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Giving more characters degenerate throws (i.e. long chain grabs) is a terrible idea, in fact a lot of them should be toned down, in my opinion.

Chain grabs are just soul breaking and unfun on top of being largely uninteractive. The less crazy long chain grabs the game has, the better.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Damn. You can't just WD in and CC the fireball while you're sliding?

I was hoping the same approach would work vs Ivysaur ;(

 

[Phan7om]

Easy mode anything needs to go imo

 

[FreeGamer]

What's worse: The abundant throw->kill setups or the overkill recoveries?

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

cuz running is a bad approach option, and if it's your only option, then there's no room for mindgames beyond "is he gonna run at me yet? whatever, my projectiles are on their way."

 

[Plum]

Can we not give more characters stupid DThrows? I'm on the side of things that feels these shouldn't even be in the game to begin with.

Naaaah, just give Sheik her Dthrow back (like actually, why remove her Dthrow and then give equally stupid throws to a **** ton of other characters).
Balance will be restored to the world.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No characters have dthrows as stupid as NTSC sheik's lolol
People who say this don't know how severe sheik's dthrow was in melee
NTSC Sheik chaingrabbed everybody less floaty than like peach/luigi/puff, unless they were named fox/falco/falcon, whom she could tech chase on reaction. Borderline fast fallers got boned especially hard, CG'd to 100 or near 100 and set-up for a slap, usmash, upair, whatever she needed. And borderline fast fallers are more common than super fast fallers. And also keep in mind this was all on a fast character with a good boost grab.
Pit/ROB dthrows only chain fast fallers/borderline fast fallers, to varying degrees, and everybody else gets away from grab reach and forces an aerial follow-up. ROB's in particular chains like the top 10 fastest fallers, the floatiest of whom get away around 25%. And he gets a touch of extra percent on super fatties. Granted he also gets chaingrabs on spacies approx 0-100% that lead into kill moves, but this is really the only guaranteed damage he gets on them since good DI on most of his other stuff only leads into tech chases, where he has a slow ground speed to hinder him. This only applies of course if there are no platforms around. And anybody not named fox/falco/wolf/falcon gets away under 40%, so the only characters really heavily affected are the ones who are prone to this kind of thing regardless of opponent.

 

[Frost | Odds]

No characters have dthrows as stupid as NTSC sheik's lolol
People who say this don't know how severe sheik's dthrow was in melee

10/10 Bowsers approve of this post

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Snake's up throw is kinda funny.

does fox's dthrow still meteor if he grabs you on the ledge?

 

[MrBigstuff]

Are we complaining about throws now? Sweet, I vote we nerf downthrows. They're all dumb, every single one.

 

[NickRiddle]

Nerf every d-throw.
Give Bowser's d-throw Mario's current KB and trajectory.
D-throw > Bowser Bomb needs to happen.

 

[DMG]

If you're good enough, Dthrow to Bowser Bomb already can happen.

If you like, read them harder than the co-axial atomic spin of the universe and utterly humiliate them

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you're good enough, Dthrow to Bowser Bomb already can happen.

If you like, read them harder than the co-axial atomic spin of the universe and utterly humiliate them

If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing bowser

 

[NickRiddle]

Time to quit Bowser I guess.
I only get it when M2s teleport into me.

 

[Kati]

^ that is very depressing D:

----

I never grow tired of Ganon's chain grab. He pretty much dribbles the opponent. With his super short reach, I feel like he deserves it too.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Snake's up throw is kinda funny.

does fox's dthrow still meteor if he grabs you on the ledge?

Yes
Godlike fast

 

[mimgrim]

I can't do any follow ups out of Bowser's Dthrow. ;-;

I stick to his Uthrow instead as a result.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Git gud at tek chaess

Seriously though it gets in people's heads when they get grabbed 2 or 3 times in a row by Bowser. Especially if you start giving them advice like "yo you should probably stop rolling towards center stage"

 

[mimgrim]

All they need to do is tech away from Bowser and he can't chase them unless it is a god awful tech-roll like Squirtle's.

Doesn't seem worth it to tech chase with him when I can just get a more reliable follow-up out of Uthrow.

:L

 

[NickRiddle]

Bowser regrabs Fox if Bowser commits to the assumption that Fox is teching away.

 

[mimgrim]

Bowser regrabs Fox if Bowser commits to the assumption that Fox is teching away.

I... need to see that happen to believe it.

 

[DMG]

Probably depends on % a little bit, but doesn't sound inaccurate. Bowser's dash grab is mucho mucho

 

[Frost | Odds]

I... need to see that happen to believe it.

It's true. Bowser's dash grab is insanely long. You can also Klaw -> dashgrab -> airKlaw if Fox's DI isn't good iirc

 

[EmptySky00]

This just in, Mario's Dsmash is frame 3.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Actually, two hitboxes appear at frame 3 and two more at frame 5
Confused something. From testings, its frame 5, but from the data, frame 3? Strange

 

[1FD]

There are a lot of characters in this game, how does one LIST them?
BY RNG!

 

[Cassio]

Pikas D-throw has more utility than his melee one. Pls no nerf.

I don't see why we should buff Pika when he is already good.

Rofl no. Ignoring the buffs comment, hes definitely not already good. Pikachu will likely never be good in PM. At the very least, recoveries are too good/different, his offstage game wont ever match what he had in other smash games. On top of this he gets chaingrabbed by BS MUs he already loses. Hopefully at least his u-throw is changed to match what he had in melee.

50% of the cast suffers fro Pikachu's "problems", and they don't have his strengths to back it up, I.e speed, recovery, power, gimp potential, a decent projectile, etc.

Also about the talk of Thunder Jolt not being good, if people are calling SHADOW BALL a fantastic projectile, then Thunder Jolt is good. Shadow Ball isn't some godly projectile lol.

Jolt has its uses but...no.

I'm conflicted about this. On paper he has some great tools. In practice he feels limited and awkward.

If you look into it enough hes not great on paper either. I think hes still fun though.

 

[EmptySky00]

Actually, two hitboxes appear at frame 3 and two more at frame 5
Confused something. From testings, its frame 5, but from the data, frame 3? Strange

The data says frame 5. It says the initial animation (charge window) is 3 frames (this ends when mario makes the SFX) then the hitbox comes out two frames later.

 

[Bleck]

whoa that's like almost as fast as like a shine or something

 

[mimgrim]

It's true. Bowser's dash grab is insanely long. You can also Klaw -> dashgrab -> airKlaw if Fox's DI isn't good iirc

You can chain multiple Klaws into any character if they have bad DI.

I just have a hard time trying to visualize him being able to tech chase Fox with his godly tech roll, even with anticipation and even with the range of his Dash Grab. Which is why I need to see it to believe it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fox's tech roll isn't godly what
it's got an average distance and it's duration is the same as all tech rolls.
I know, weird that fox has something that's not godly.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

What's worse: The abundant throw->kill setups or the overkill recoveries?

The former. Easily the former. #RoyPlayerWoes

 

[Frost | Odds]

whoa that's like almost as fast as like a shine or something

Oh, stop. You're making me all hot and bothered.