Tier List Speculation

[Zx2963]

What high tier character ISN'T broken in some way shape or form?

 

[didds]

I'm gonna do this cuz I feel like getting yelled at.

ganon tier

great

can compete with first row, be good


all good, just outclassed.
ordering got pretty
pointless here.
eh idk wat to think

bowser tier

huge mid-low tier I know. this is an impossible task lol
are we dumb or smart?

edit: second thoughts on wario though..

 

[Frost | Odds]

how in God's name do you have Wario in the same tier as Link, Marth and Ivysaur?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Its probably good to keep tier lists pretty broad right now to best avoid looking like an idiot in a few months when we have some idea of what the **** is really going on in this game

 

[DMG]

how in God's name do you have Wario in the same tier as Link, Marth and Ivysaur?

Wario's pretty good? Just cause he might lose to those 3 chars doesn't make him bad

 

[DrinkingFood]

Odds are you questioning wario being a good character? He's one of the few characters to whom there are few optimal defensive solutions because he has such crazy mix-ups. With a player behind him that doesn't have stupid habits, he can regularly force more and better punishments out of neutral game successes than a lot of characters simply by virtue of the opponent not having correct DI choices or tech timings available to beat all his potential follow-ups. Bite is one of many examples. You have to read which way he is going to throw you else he gets a follow-up that leads into big damage/knockdown which is deadly against his side-b.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wario's pretty good? Just cause he might lose to those 3 chars doesn't make him bad

Wario is mid-tier, which is pretty good in this game.

 

[Frost | Odds]

He's alright, but nowhere near as good as those characters. A lot of his matchups (including those) are extremely rough if the other guy knows what he's doing.

Yeah I know you don't really have problems with Marth, Strong Bad, but the rest of us plebs have to actually pay attention to the MU spreads.

 

[DMG]

Wario is mid-tier, which is pretty good in this game.

Ya most Melee chars would love to be in PM Mid Tier

 

[Strong Badam]

He's alright, but nowhere near as good as those characters. A lot of his matchups (including those) are extremely rough if the other guy knows what he's doing.

Yeah I know you don't really have problems with Marth, Strong Bad, but the rest of us plebs have to actually pay attention to the MU spreads.

Marth is easily among Wario's worst MUs and I do not use Wario for that MU. Just because I beat M2k's Marth once with him doesn't mean I think Wario does well lol.

Wario's worst MUs are Fox/Marth/Mewtwo/Ivysaur/Charizard. Trailing not too far behind are Snake, Pit, Mario, MK, and Link. I think he can handle just about any other character pretty well even if they're 4-6's.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Strong Badam

How do you deal with Ivy? She's clearly in the same disjoint/projectile zoning character archetype as Mewtwo/Link/Marth - so i'm curious if her omission was unintentional, or if Wario has some trick to dealing with her that I'm not aware of. I can't find any relevant games on youtube.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah you missed my edit bro

 

[Frost | Odds]

Damn. My bad. Guess I'll CP then :<

 

[DMG]

The only "trick" for Ivy I think, would be CCing and/or shielding blatantly obvious and overused Bairs. This puts you in a bad spot to deal with moves like Dtilt though. The two worst habits from Ivy players would probably be linked to Bairs and Razor Leaf: people tend to overestimate how safe or strong their position will be after those moves end, so they end up throwing away opportunities to patiently keep the advantage. Not just Wario, but many characters with a tough Ivy MU can manage through her "cheese". It's the patient, thoughtful Ivy gameplay that makes things so rotten lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

Indeed. I'd be tempted to post more salt about my thoughts re: the only viable strategy in that MU for some characters being "hope the Ivy is impatient/dumb", but at this point it seems both unpopular and well-noted.

At least the Ivy MU is winnable for most of the cast, unlike another floaty pokemon close to all of our hearts. ///sobrave

 

[DMG]

There's a lot of underutilized stuff vs Ivy. There's a surprising amount of stuff that you can CC or CC+shield if she isn't sweetspotting her attacks. Bair, if you are close to her and on the ground is actually pretty bad to throw out, since you can CC or ASDI down on the first weak hit and shield the second hit + encroach even closer on her territory. Or if Ivy is playing with the edge and needs to get back on: you might want to crowd it so that Fair won't sweetspot and you can CC + punish. People don't have that stuff down, and it tends to make the MU vs her more manageable. Eating hits that you can counter or reposition from, while getting closer to Ivy > being near max distance walled out by stronger hits from tilts and Bair

 

[1FD]

This is basically a re-vamp of the list Bamesy Tenki and I made in JANUARY
I only made a few tiny adjustments, but basically we went over it again and were pretty content with this still being our thoughts.
There's a few we questioned a bit (like maybe overestimating Yoshi because they're both so good with him and make him look good) but he still seems ridic hard to hit while always being able to pressure decently so it's tricky.
But yeah this was basically our LOCAL TIER LIST in JAN and re-posting it for some stuff.
I'll maybe post bamesys rundown of reasons he emailed me too
It's kind of weird compared to most probably but then again it was in Jan that we made this and like the same chars are in almost all the same rows just moved a bit IN the rows
Top > Down and Left > Right

 

[Comprehend13]

Do you have a really good DeDeDe player in your region

 

[9bit]

Dedede exists outside of tier lists

 

[didds]

This is basically a re-vamp of the list Bamesy Tenki and I made in JANUARY
I only made a few tiny adjustments, but basically we went over it again and were pretty content with this still being our thoughts.
There's a few we questioned a bit (like maybe overestimating Yoshi because they're both so good with him and make him look good) but he still seems ridic hard to hit while always being able to pressure decently so it's tricky.
But yeah this was basically our LOCAL TIER LIST in JAN and re-posting it for some stuff.
I'll maybe post bamesys rundown of reasons he emailed me too
It's kind of weird compared to most probably but then again it was in Jan that we made this and like the same chars are in almost all the same rows just moved a bit IN the rows
Top > Down and Left > Right

Yoshi is amazing, that is all

 

[shairn]

@ 1FD You're going to have to justify these Pika and luigi placements.
Why is Peach so high? Why is she even higher than Fox?
For that matter, why's Fox apparently mid-tier?

 

[TreK]

Marth is the second most popular character in PM according to smashboards statistics, yet he's way below Fox in every tier list I've ever read.

Any particular reason behind that ?

 

[shairn]

Marth is the second most popular character in PM according to smashboards statistics, yet he's way below Fox in every tier list I've ever read.

Any particular reason behind that ?

He has a significantly worse MU spread.
Ganon is very popular too.

 

[TreK]

I guess so.
It sounded to me like those rankings were based on tourney results but I don't know the formula they use and they probably ignore 9/10th of the tourneys that happen.

 

[LOGIA666]

He has a significantly worse MU spread.
Ganon is very popular too.

Ganon is really fun to play. lol

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ganon good

 

[Deleted member]

ganon is trash
wario is mid
marth is also mid but destroys wario horribly
i don't see how people are comparing wario and marth to much better characters like link and ivy

 

[CORY]

^ that is very depressing D:

----

I never grow tired of Ganon's chain grab. He pretty much dribbles the opponent. With his super short reach, I feel like he deserves it too.

honestly, i'd rather have ganon get a good grab range, overall (a bit lower and more than trex arm forward) and then just get rid of all the chaingrabs they possibly can.

then give him a set up dthrow and give more utility to b/fthrows (di mixups or a kill throw or make one a gimping setup something like that.)

 

[NWRL]

Here's a tier list that I just wrote up cause **** it.

S tier
M2
Fox
Falco
MK
Lucas

A tier
Sonic
Diddy
Link
Ivysaur
Mario
Snake
Pit
Samus


B tier
Kirby
Falcon
Luigi
Pikachu
Wolf
Wario
ZSS
Marth
Sheik
Yoshi
ROB

C tier
Peach
Ike
Roy
Toon Link
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
DK
Bowser
G&W
Charizard
De De De
Zelda

D tier
Ganondorf
Olimar
ICs
Jigglypuff

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I like how ICs are obligatory low tier because... No chaingrabs and wobbling? They still have good movement options, short jumpsquat, and a solid moveset with nice disjoints and combos. They aren't that bad, its some weird groupthink going on + nobody using them since they got needed. They're totally mid.

edit: Nana's AI might be crippling though actually

 

[Phan7om]

All tier lists look the same... as;kdnasoidnvaoidsjfasdjf;asn

 

[NWRL]

My tier list is based off of personal experience and tournaments . I've never seen ICs do well ever

And I'm just bored at work so I needed to keep myself busy

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Here's a tier list that I just wrote up cause **** it.

S tier
M2
Fox
Falco
MK
Lucas

A tier
Sonic
Diddy
Link
Ivysaur
Mario
Snake
Pit
Samus


B tier
Kirby
Samus
Falcon
Luigi
Pikachu
Wolf
Wario
ZSS
Marth
Sheik
Yoshi
ROB

C tier
Peach
Ike
Roy
Toon Link
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
DK
Bowser
G&W
Charizard
De De De
Zelda

D tier
Ganondorf
Olimar
ICs
Jigglypuff

You have Samus on their twice. Also I think Falco has way too many bad match ups to be considered S tier.

 

[NWRL]

You have Samus on their twice. Also I think Falco has way too many bad match ups to be considered S tier.

He's still extremely strong and developed.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I guess so.
It sounded to me like those rankings were based on tourney results but I don't know the formula they use and they probably ignore 9/10th of the tourneys that happen.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure both Marth and Ganon are pretty wildly underrated. Marth especially has one of the most consistent matchup spreads in the game.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That Kirby placement

Uh, wow.

Edit: goddamn, meant to edit. Sorry for double post

 

[Jellyfish4102]

He's still extremely strong and developed.

Well that's somewhat irrelevant as characters don't exist in a vacuum. He is only as strong as his opponents and many characters just abuse him.

 

[Phan7om]

aka: it doesnt matter how good a character's tools are if most other characters in the game has tools to beat that character.

 

[NWRL]

If Falco is playing on point he has a ridiculous combo game on basically everyone. He's B tier at the lowest.

Also Kirby is pretty B tier. He has a good amount of tools and a really nice combo game. Do you want him higher or lower

 

[didds]

What are Falco's bad MUs?