Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Ya that's a bad idea lol. I think both Smash wikis are out of date and erroneous for some MU's. Many of them don't even match the official Smashboards version: numbers seem to be literally picked out of thin air

 

[InfinityCollision]

Is there actually a Melee chart that's considered up to date?

Explain to me how and who.

How: most notable is probably the fact that her gimp game didn't translate well to PM. Characters that both outrange her and challenge her offstage game are particularly rough. Most of her matchups aren't terrible, I just don't think she has a good enough spread to warrant a high position.

Who: Link, Mewtwo, Pit, Samus, Fox, Wolf, just for some from your high tiers.

Why?

Weaker neutral, more susceptible to CCing, has to work a bit harder for his kills, manages to be even more combo-friendly. Yes, I know I'm glossing over some of his advantages. I'd rather not write an essay. While I do put Falco in roughly the same tier, I would say that Fox > Wolf > Falco by similar degrees.

Possibly. But I'm not completely convinced yet. I think most of it is people not knowing how to deal with him.

As much as I'm an advocate of adaptation, I think his metagame development is going to improve at a disproportionate rate for a while yet. Teleport shenanigans have yet to be fully explored/utilized.

Explain.

Fairly polarized matchup spread. Anybody that can keep him out beats him handily.

That's why they are in the bottom.

Bottom asserts that they're roughly equal to other bottom tier characters, an assertion that is difficult to corroborate for sheer lack of evidence. I dislike the idea of bottom tier as a catch-all for "what the **** do these guys even do".

You're already delving into opinions anyway.

Moreso than I cared to in that post then.

 

[mimgrim]

There hasn't been a MU chart for Melee for a good long while now. Mainly because it is a fruitless endeavor in Melee.

@ InfinityCollision I'll get to your post tomorrow, if I can remember. It's late and I'm tired and articulating my thoughts currently will not go over well.

 

[PlateProp]

I'm totally sure TL throws bombs to make people shield so he can get that freeasballs pressure.
So yeah he does fine on shields, you know what's up.


lol wow well then
If -awestin and ness's other than the ones i've played don't do anything but pk fire- is how he interpreted -i've heard other good ness's abuse pk fire more than the ones i've played- then no wonder threads get derailed. LOL



There are actually some pretty slick momentum mechanics in PM that allow him to have ridic control over his ground positioning. This ain't melee and i ain't seen anybody apply this very well yet. Well, I know nobody has, since it's not a thing dicussed around here yet and the local weegees aren't even close to implementing his weirdasballs PM physics crawl and walking stuff yet.
Have you seen all the sliding and crawling dsmash and ftilt mixups he's got? I should make a giff of bamesy doing it. It doesn't make sense how you can predict or shut down his WD game when he can just shimmy along like a squirtle on speed.

Squirtle can go faster than Sanik if you know what you're doing.
Real Talk, Squirtle's the one who needs the "You're too slow" Taunt
You mad Sanik mains?

 

[RPGsFTW]

Ok guys, so tell me your opinions on Olimar in a nutshell. We have Xero playing a pretty damn good Olimar out here in Vegas, and he is beyond frustrating to fight with near any character. I almost feel like he's more obnoxious than any of our best players abusing dumb things like Mewtwo's tail.

Really though, I don't know why everyone is rating Olimar so bad. I've legit seen him practically 0 to a good 60-70~ or worse on a bunch of characters, especially big ones, with almost nothing but down throw -> up smash. What is the correct way to DI it for the least harmful follow up? Also, how do you get past his pikmin in certain instances? I know his pikmin pull should feel slow but when I fight him it doesn't at all feel slow and his pikmin never die as easily as they should.

Honestly, I hate Olimar very much as a person who frequently plays Wario. God damn pikmin block the should charge.

Olimar players, please enlighten me.

 

[MLGF]

Olimar isn't obscene in any way noticeable at a basic surface, and as such no one finds him "fun".
So his meta game revolves around not being picked up. I dunno whether he's good or not.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I hate Olimar very much as a person who frequently plays Wario.

olimar is a fairly under-appreciated character in PM, but he's still pretty legit overall. however, the entire character is basically keep away > get flowers > keep away with flowers lol so any character without some kind of reliable approach is going to have a very hard time dealing with him when he's played correctly. i don't think wario dk ganon type characters are going to fare well against olimar, but a character like falco peach pikachu etc might have a better time with it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Indeed. You're gonna have a hard time with Wario - it may be worth your time to pick up a secondary that can either get in on Olimar or out-camp him. This will also help with your other rough matchups like Link, Mewtwo, Ivysaur, Marth.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Thing is, I play a lot of characters in tourney. I've gone between Mario, Luigi, Wario, Bowser, Dedede, and even DK. I've just never felt like I've had a true main in PM and I've just taken different approaches practically every time I play.

If I am to be completely honest, I'd love to just main Bowser and second Dedede, but their match up spread again certain characters is just so unfun I can't deal with it. I am awful against people that camp and wait for you, so I usually HAVE to go with one of the lighter characters I listed to stop their stupid playstyles. I'm not all in crazy, it's just frustrating for me whenever I fight any campy character, and Olimar just happens to act like that, or the one I play against at least.

 

[Deleted member]

meh just play who you like. you're always going to have frustrating MUs, it just depends who you're against.

 

[trash?]

wario's bad matchups should be better explained with "anyone who spaces well", honestly

tiny, tiny limbs. little fat baby limbs for a baby. it gets worse when there's a decent, long lasting projectile involved too

on DDD: incredibly underrated. it's best to use DDD if you specifically main multiple characters for different MUs, because they all revolve around "how well can you handle the hammer", and if they can't handle the hammer it's pretty free

no ivan ooze, sry 9bit

 

[Frost | Odds]

I can't play D3 to save my life. Everything feels like grumpy jello

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

olimar is a fairly under-appreciated character in PM, but he's still pretty legit overall. however, the entire character is basically keep away > get flowers > keep away with flowers lol so any character without some kind of reliable approach is going to have a very hard time dealing with him when he's played correctly. i don't think wario dk ganon type characters are going to fare well against olimar, but a character like falco peach pikachu etc might have a better time with it.

Omg that's exactly how I play Olimar, I just run away the whole time. Like once, this Link player was trying to camp me out so I walked over to the other side of the stage and just waited there. Apparently he didn't know that Pikmin get stronger so I was able to run in and get a few upsmashes into fair and that was the stock, he raged pretty hard.

Another cool think I've found in the vs Mario match up is that you can jump fair with olmiar. If done correctly you should be barley above the fireball, while Mario should get hit with the bottom of Olimar's fair. I guess its just little things like that that make Olimar pretty good. Another cool thing I've been doing involves his dash attack. Right before your opponents hit the ground you have enough time to squeeze out a dash attack, and Olimars dash attacks lead to huge damage.

But then I tried using Olimar against Lucas and Fox, and that was a living hell.

I mainly use Olimar against campy and defensive players, and he proves to be very effective and underrated.

 

[Bleck]

tiny, tiny limbs. little fat baby limbs for a baby.

Never stopped Jigglypuff from being good, though.

 

[didds]

Never stopped Jigglypuff from being good, though.

Isn't it kind of stopping her now?

 

[Bleck]

That's probably true, yes.

 

[trash?]

Never stopped Jigglypuff from being good, though.

jigglypuff doesn't have tiny baby limbs, though. it just looks like it does, then her foot stretches wide enough for marth's sword to both humanize itself and immediately blush upon doing so

wario's still overall better tho, because his moveset's strengths are a bit better than "she has a single amazing aerial in her repertoire of average moves, and also rest", but jiggs got them magical feets

also jigglypuff is highly overrated to begin with in melee, but that's another story entirely

 

[Bleck]

Wario's neutral special is kind of terrible, isn't it?

 

[victinivcreate1]

After playing around woth Sheik for a bit...

Mid tier queen. Just that most of the high/top tiers (, not in any order, and this list is based on theoretical success, why is why Lucario makes it here) can beat her.

 

[Deleted member]

lol yeah sheik is definitely not as good as squirtle

 

[Ace55]

Wario's neutral special is kind of terrible, isn't it?

Yeah, an airgrab on a Jiggs like character is basically worthless. I wish I had rollout.

 

[Phan7om]

He prob cant tell you're being sarcastic lol.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

wario's command grab is what makes him actually good and not just heavy puff with fewer jumps right?

 

[Shokio]

Yoshi is secretly high tier. People just don't know it yet.

 

[DMG]

Yoshi can't even parry properly. High tier de-confirmed

 

[Ripple]

Who needs a shield when you can just jump through attacks

 

[DMG]

Who needs attacks, when you can shame opponents with the Chewing Jaws of Judgment?

 

[Shokio]

He doesn't need the parry. Not in PM.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I've heard about him being able to do some weird OoS shenanigans with his double jump where you can basically do anything you want OoS including ground attacks and stuff. Sounds pretty crazy on paper, but I'll wait until I see it actually applied before I jump to any conclusions.

 

[Shokio]

I've heard about him being able to do some weird OoS shenanigans with his double jump where you can basically do anything you want OoS including ground attacks and stuff. Sounds pretty crazy on paper, but I'll wait until I see it actually applied before I jump to any conclusions.

Play even just a decent Yoshi who knows what he's doing - it's insane.

1. He suffers low hitstun. It's very hard to combo him at low and mid percents.
2. His Nair comes out frame 3. THREE. And now, he can jump OoS with that....a frame 3 move that can have DJ armor on it and lasts literally for 30 frames. AND it's actually a kill option. Talk about insane.
3. While he suffers low hitstun, his moves have HIGH hitstun on them. Get touched by Yoshi once, be prepared for 80% damage. You can't move at all once he lands a hit on you.
4. His side-B is pretty much a guranteed combo starter at ANY percent. Even at 200% it's knockback growth is so weird that it pops people up nicely for a Uair finish, which btw, is a great finisher and has tons of hitstun on it.
5. His DTilt has crazy range and hits you at an extremely low angle. I almost died once at 0% trying to CC this move with ZSS. I slid off the stage so quickly and so low that I was almost not able to recover.
6. His DSmash is in the same boat, except along with the crazy range and low hit trajectory, it always very strong at the same time. But most of the time, it's not even the power of the move that will kill you, it's the angle. That moves sends you to the point of no return. I've died at 40%-60% easily with Roy from the move. It's pretty dumb. Oh, and this move also hits on frame 3.
7. Despite his recovery "disadvantage", any Yoshi with at least decent DI will make it back to the stage with Side B. Side B is pretty potent for recovery in this game.
8. Thousand Kicks (dair) is godlike. Even more godlike than before. It has an ELEVEN-FRAME auto-cancel window, AND it has a hitbox when you land with it, so essentially, Dair into DSmash is a guaranteed combo. A very devastating one.
9. His eggs don't have a set range before they pop anymore. They don't pop until they hit something, and they're really great hit-confirms.
10. Most of his moves are generally high-priority and will at the very least clank with other moves. Yoshi rarely gets beat out.

If it weren't for his weird and unique feel/control, I think a lot more people would use him. He's a very good character.

 

[Bleck]

Yeah, an airgrab on a Jiggs like character is basically worthless. I wish I had rollout.

Does he have any good follow-ups from the grab, though? I don't know myself, I don't play Wario/haven't played against any.

 

[Bazkip]

a frame 3 move that can have DJ armor on it

I thought the armor is dropped when he does an attack?

 

[Shokio]

I thought the armor is dropped when he does an attack?

It is, poor choice of wording on my part. I meant that he can just eat an attack coming OoS and then promptly respond a 3-frame kick lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Play even just a decent Yoshi who knows what he's doing - it's insane.

1. He suffers low hitstun. It's very hard to combo him at low and mid percents.
2. His Nair comes out frame 3. THREE. And now, he can jump OoS with that....a frame 3 move that can have DJ armor on it and lasts literally for 30 frames. AND it's actually a kill option. Talk about insane.
3. While he suffers low hitstun, his moves have HIGH hitstun on them. Get touched by Yoshi once, be prepared for 80% damage. You can't move at all once he lands a hit on you.
4. His side-B is pretty much a guranteed combo starter at ANY percent. Even at 200% it's knockback growth is so weird that it pops people up nicely for a Uair finish, which btw, is a great finisher and has tons of hitstun on it.
5. His DTilt has crazy range and hits you at an extremely low angle. I almost died once at 0% trying to CC this move with ZSS. I slid off the stage so quickly and so low that I was almost not able to recover.
6. His DSmash is in the same boat, except along with the crazy range and low hit trajectory, it always very strong at the same time. But most of the time, it's not even the power of the move that will kill you, it's the angle. That moves sends you to the point of no return. I've died at 40%-60% easily with Roy from the move. It's pretty dumb. Oh, and this move also hits on frame 3.
7. Despite his recovery "disadvantage", any Yoshi with at least decent DI will make it back to the stage with Side B. Side B is pretty potent for recovery in this game.
8. Thousand Kicks (dair) is godlike. Even more godlike than before. It has an ELEVEN-FRAME auto-cancel window, AND it has a hitbox when you land with it, so essentially, Dair into DSmash is a guaranteed combo. A very devastating one.
9. His eggs don't have a set range before they pop anymore. They don't pop until they hit something, and they're really great hit-confirms.
10. Most of his moves are generally high-priority and will at the very least clash with other moves. Yoshi rarely gets beat out.

Shokio, that's not how hitstun works. It's a direct multiplier to knockback, and it's the same for every character and every move, except when they bounce off the ground or a wall.

 

[Shokio]

I know that. I didn't say it works any kind of way, I just said his moves have crazy hitstun on them (meaning, he has an arsenal of HEAVY hitting moves and lots of great combo starters to lead into those.) It's mainly his Dair, fair, and Uair.

 

[DMG]

Does he have any good follow-ups from the grab, though? I don't know myself, I don't play Wario/haven't played against any.

He has amazing followups from Bite, and part of that is that you get the DI mixup. You can throw them both ways, you can chose to insta throw or delay the throw, etc. Bad or little DI literally kills people, while Good DI can still lead to tech chases or positional advantages at lower %.

Wario in general is very tricky and mixup based. Guessing wrong on his mixups is a big no-no. He gets much easier in general though if you can correctly DI away/Away and Down. He does not link stuff nearly as well on that DI, just don't eat kill moves with that DI

 

[Bazkip]

I know that. I didn't say it works any kind of way, I just said his moves have crazy hitstun on them (meaning, he has an arsenal of HEAVY hitting moves and lots of great combo starters to lead into those.) It's mainly his Dair, fair, and Uair.

He suffers low hitstun

...did you even read your own post?

 

[Shokio]

...did you even read your own post?

What? I didn't say his moves have a lot of hitstun because he's suffers little of it himself, I don't know how you made that connection. His lower hitstun suffrage comes from the amount of floatiness (not a word) he has. Floaties suffer less hitstun.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Floaties don't suffer less hitstun, they just travel farther upwards when hit with any amount of knockback.

 

[Shokio]

Nah dude, hitstun is directly related to floatiness. Of course the knockback of the move and weight play a part too but it more-so the fall speed then the weight.

You've never been combo breaker'd by Luigi's nair? Ever see a Zelda get a lightning kick straight out of getting combo'd? It's because they don't stay in hitstun as long as the non-floaty characters.