Tier List Speculation

[PsionicSabreur]

There is no way Lucas loses to Marth. Lucas has a projectile, runs hella fast, and has an absurd pressure + Punish game. Marth gets bodied.

Lucas runs slower than Marth...

 

[Ace55]

waveshine infinite was removed from the game, and I'm not referring to the wall thing. Try infiniting Peach. You can't. In Melee you can.

Wtf? I'm intrigued by how you think this is possible.

I also love that you live in a reality where Fox can infinite people without a wall and then complain that he can't do it anymore.

Also Sheik at 36 holy ****! Also Zelda 4th....

 

[Lukingordex]

I believe Marth vs Lucas is pretty even. Maybe a very little advantage for Lucas but not much really.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Wtf? I'm intrigued by how you think this is possible.

I also love that you live in a reality where Fox can infinite people without a wall and complain that he can't do t anymore.

Its not infinite, but a Fox could definitely get a waveshine into waveshine before the opponent starts SDI'ing and escaping it. Mango does it. Then again Mango is ridiculous I'm not sure if he counts lol.

I'm not complaining about it being gone lol. Im just saying it was one of things in Melee, gone in PM, and contributes to a nerfed Fox.

 

[Ace55]

Its not infinite, but a Fox could definitely get a waveshine into waveshine before the opponent starts SDI'ing and escaping it. Mango does it. Then again Mango is ridiculous I'm not sure if he counts lol.

So you just mean normal waveshining..? Fox can still do that, heck even my crappy Fox can get it. Peach having low high traction actually makes it easy to perform on her.

 

[victinivcreate1]

So you just mean normal waveshining..? Fox can still do that, heck even my crappy Fox can get it. Peach having low traction actually makes it easy to perform on her.

My crappy Fox can waveshine Peach in Melee no problem. In PM it doesn't work. And its not a timing issue. I rarely play Melee and I play PM a lot. Just doesn't work in PM.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Mr.Random
Whoops I worded that completely wrong. With more floaty characters, up throw up air doesn't work.

@GP&B waveshine infinite was removed from the game, and I'm not referring to the wall thing. Try infiniting Peach. You can't. In Melee you can.

You can't waveshine against walls anymore, which doesn't matter because you can always ban PS1 now anyways if you want. Just like Fox can always ban FD now. That's a huge buff.
You can still waveshine across the stage, on anyone who has traction high enough for it, and nobody from Melee has reduced traction so that's not different. If it had anymore knockback it would knockback marth if you shined him, which it doesn't except against a wall.
Uthrow uair still works against most characters. The issue was never fall speed. It works on Jiggs just fine in melee despite being the floatiest. The issue is weight, in melee it doesn't work on bowser, Samus, probably a few other characters I don't know about.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ DrinkingFood I stand corrected.

Anyway I have compiled a list of characters that people tend to complain about and need nerfs. I have also made of list of changes that I would make.

Spoiler

Mewtwo
Teleport Ledge limit is 3. After 3 he'll miss the ledge. No more Hover out of Teleport but yes double jump out of TP. DJ nair isn't jank. Tail range shortened to slightly longer than Melee. Hurtboxes on all parts of tail. Neutral aerial deals half the shield damage and between the 8th and 9th hits there is 7 frames of lag so most characters can grab or Up B OoS. You can Teleport downwards through platforms now. Shorter DJ.

Mario
Make like 2.5 Mario, but keep the Doc Punch.

Lucas
No more tether recovery, PK Thunder has less distance and less priority, back air is now a meteor smash.

Sonic
Make spin dash unsafe on shield, make dash approaches good and give him a good tech chase option so he's using his DASH as his main tool. Homing Attack does not aid recovery.

Pit
Dair has less stun. Arrows have less stun. Jumps don't go as far. You hit him out of Wings of Icarus, he loses jumps and specials. If you use Wings of Icarus in mid air, you lose jumps and specials.

Toon Link
Improve recovery

Ganondorf
Hyrule Warriors dual blades bruh plz. Also make him agile. Wizard's Foot can be jump cancelled and Dark Dive has more recovery distance vertically and horizontally.

 

[mimgrim]

Toon Link
Improve recovery

To anyone who says Toon Link has a bad recovery;

Hard =/= bad. Otherwise Fox would be low tier lol.

Tell me how his recovery needs improving again?

 

[victinivcreate1]

How practical is that? There's your answer.

 

[mimgrim]

How practical is that? There's your answer.

That's a really bad answer.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Its a legitimate one nonetheless.

 

[NickRiddle]

TL's recovery is good in a vacuum.
This game doesn't often offer somebody recovering a vacuum.

 

[kaizo13]

How practical is that? There's your answer.

not very practical, but i feel his recovery is just right for the recovery redesign goal PM 3.5 is aiming for.

PMBR: The goal is that the recovering victim should have just enough options that they feel a certain pressure to combine their limited recovery moves in ways that can surprise the edgeguarder, and earn their way back on to the stage.

that is exactly how TL's current recovery functions, so i don't feel it needs to be improved. He has the tools to make it back from anywhere offstage, it just takes a little bit of skill and creativity.

 

[Ripple]

I heard metroid talking about diminishing returns on AGTs. I think that's be a good idea

 

[mimgrim]

it is not a legitimate one.

If Toon Link has a bad recovery then so does Link. Yet I don't see you claiming Link to need a improved recovery.

People need to look pass just the Uspecials. Just like Link he has AGT and Bomb Jumping and a tether along with the bonus of being able to wall jump, which link doesn;t have. The thing here is that he can Bomb Jump better then Link thanks to his Uspecial being shorter. He can recover from the deep end well. It's hard. But it is no more impractical then playing a highly technical Fox.

TL's recovery is good in a vacuum.
This game doesn't often offer somebody recovering a vacuum.

How is his recovery bad outside of a vacuum?

Many people keep on claiming his recovery is bad. But refuse to ever explain why. Explain how it is bad out of a vacuum then.

 

[NickRiddle]

You can interrupt AGTs/up-bing into bombs?

 

[mimgrim]

You can interrupt AGTs/up-bing into bombs?

You can do the same to Link?

But no one says his recovery is bad?

 

[NickRiddle]

Because his up-b exists.

 

[Frost | Odds]

All of these Fox johns. Sounds like someone needs to practice the MU.

fyi your character is pretty much the only one in the game with a good MU on fox.

**** off.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Up-bing into bombs isn't what makes TL's recovery good. It's AGTs in general, which is essentially a DJ and item throw at the same time that you can refresh. You can fend off approaching/onstage opponents while simultaneously stalling and gaining a lot of horizontal distance. Not to mention challenging his up-b when he gets near the stage is a good way to get stage spiked, and going after him if he tethers could just lead to a tether cancel->up-b->stage spike.
@Lunchables educate these people.

@ Frost | Odds Samus has a positive MU on Fox too. But I don't think that's the issue anyways. The issue is whether or not fox has the best matchup spread.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Up-bing into bombs isn't what makes TL's recovery good. It's AGTs in general, which is essentially a DJ and item throw at the same time that you can refresh. No to mention challenging his up-b when he gets near the stage is a good way to get stage spiked, and going after him if eh tethers could just lead to a tether cancel->up-b->stage spike.
@Lunchables educate these people.

Plus when he's besides the stage he has a bunch of options:

• Up-B into ledgegrab
• Jump into Walljump into punish against foes expecting the above
• Jump into Walljump into AGT for extra attack range and movement
• Fall into Jump into ATG into Up-B for a timing mixup
• Fall into ATG into Tether to mixup foes expecting the above
• ATG into Up-B onto platform
• ETc

 

[DrinkingFood]

and between the 8th and 9th hits there is 7 frames of lag so most characters can grab or Up B OoS.

You do not understand how shield stun works. And probably most game mechanics. This wouldn't work because even with 1 damage, the 8th hit would still have 2 frames of shield stun meaning the earliest you could start a grab would be frame 3 after the 8th hit lands on the shield. You would get hit frame 6 of your grab if you were frame perfect.

 

[mimgrim]

Because his up-b exists.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand once again. Getting too caught up on his Uspecial. It's short, yes, but it is incredibly helpful for him, just as Link's is incredible for him in his own way. And you are ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE he has which is THE SAME as Link along with something Link DOESN'T HAVE. He has the same options as Link and then some. Look at EVERYTHING combine and not just one little thing that isn't actually all the bad in the first place when combined with everything else he has.

 

[Plum]

who the **** says Uspecial

 

[mimgrim]

who the **** says Uspecial

I do because Up-b is too ambiguous for my taste when it comes to Brawl and P:M due to custom controls. Even if everyone already knows what I would be talking about.

 

[victinivcreate1]

fyi your character is pretty much the only one in the game with a good MU on fox.

**** off.

I main Marth and MK too lol. Not my fault your main is VERY underpowered. Bowser needs buffing. @ NickRiddle am I right? You'd like some buffs for Bowser eh?

@ DrinkingFood
I'll admit to not completely understanding how shield damage works. But that does not mean I don't know jack about other game mechanics

 

[Frost | Odds]

I main Marth and MK too lol. Not my fault your main is VERY underpowered.

You sayin Tink is bad?

@Lunchables pls

 

[Empyrean]

Lunchables would only agree to that, lol.

 

[Une]

Lol Mewtwo is going to be nerfed so goddamned hard

Hopefully it goes something like BlazBlue CT Rachel > BlazBlue CS Rachel

 

[Deleted member]

@Lunchables educate these people.

But... they know more about my character than I do! I'm a fraud!!!

Edit: You guys debating whether or not toonlinks recovery is good is hilarious though. Keep doing it, I can find out who does and doesn't know what they're saying.

 

[steelguttey]

ive decided that im not gonna say my opinion on toon link ever in fear of lunchables telling me how stupid i am

(hes good tho)

 

[Deleted member]

no don't be afraid to tell your opinion! I won't bite you!

I'll just write several paragraphs about how my opinion is correct and yours isn't BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG

 

[Frost | Odds]

Seriously though I'll be so many kinds of mad if Tink can't yolo fsmash off ledges in 3.5

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty damn sure he won't be able to, sorry. Imagine trying to edge guard with it an- WHOOPS I SD'D

 

[jtm94]

In a world where Sheik is bottom tier because she doesn't have a good down throw(insert Kappa), Toon Link has bad recovery because his UpB goes less distance than Link's, and Fox is bad because you can punish him if he messes up.

Toon Link's recovery not only is extremely decent for his tether alone, he has this strong UpB, and this crazy AGT thing where he throws bombs at you while he recovers and turns the edgeguarding situation into him gimping you for trying to contest his recovery, but what do I know I didn't place above top 200 at Apex so my opinion is auto-muted.

I'm all for letting the meta develop, but it is honestly clear that Mewtwo, Diddy, Mario, Pit, Fox are pretty high above the rest. I'm pretty sure at this junction in my career I would probably be better off to not use any of my mains and use Mario because he does everything. At least Mewtwo takes some character specific knowledge, Diddy has AGT shenanigans, Pit I don't even know how people win with him honestly, but I see nothing but good stuff from him, and Fox takes some advanced tech skill. Mario is just good character do stuff probably combos into the same stuff or other good stuff press b whenever you feel like man.

I'm honestly open to leave Mewtwo and Diddy alone for a bit, bar their amazing recoveries. We do not need to let the meta develop for Fox we've seen that for 13 years and we know he's good, even if he does lose handily to Mewtwo (IF), he still beats the rest of the cast pretty steadily from anything I have seen or experienced myself. It's like Rock, Paper, Scissors. In that game each character has a +1 winning MU, a 0 even MU and a -1 losing MU. In this game Fox has 1 losing MU, a few even MUs and over 30 winning MUs, that is not balance no matter how you look at it, and defending him will only end poorly. We want to see more variety in this game, and the only way to do that is to make other characters as viable as Fox(which has turned out poorly in the past) or make it so characters are not so overly dominant. The only way for characters to be less dominant is if Fox is less dominant so the bar can be lowered to something more sane.

 

[NickRiddle]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand once again. Getting too caught up on his Uspecial. It's short, yes, but it is incredibly helpful for him, just as Link's is incredible for him in his own way. And you are ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE he has which is THE SAME as Link along with something Link DOESN'T HAVE. He has the same options as Link and then some. Look at EVERYTHING combine and not just one little thing that isn't actually all the bad in the first place when combined with everything else he has.

I'm not getting caught on up-b.

If Link's recovery, which is IMO better than TL's, is fairly easy to edgeguard outside of a vacuum, then TL's is easier to edgeguard because while he has a wall-jump his tether and up-b are both shorter than Link's.
I've been edgeguarded PLENTY of times as Link. There are times when I have to drop low, throw a bomb to try to hit somebody, tether-cancel to up-b, and I STILL get hit because the opponent can react.
I really can't see TL's recovery being that good outside of a vacuum. Please note: This is my opinion because I haven't played the top TL players. Everybody who is crying because Link's recovery is really good is just ****ing bad at edgeguarding him. Having played players who punish a "superior" recovery, I believe the "inferior" recovery is easier to exploit because of it's "inferior" nature.

Why don't you explain how difficult it is to edgeguard TL?
If it's not that hard to edgeguard him, that's what I mean by not in a vacuum.

 

[Strong Badam]

To be fair, the general counterplay to tethers (holding the ledge) is beaten by ledgedrop UpB and in Tinks case, he kills you via stagespike. With Link you just take some damage.

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm just saying that I've used every option Link has and I've gotten edgeguarded because they just hit me during it.
You could also just learn to tech.

 

[Strong Badam]

Stuff happens bro!