Tier List Speculation

[Paradoxium]

Is Falco considered balanced atm? I still think something feels off about his design.

Right now the only thing he needs nerfed are his lasers. The less agile characters have like no way to deal with them.

I've picked up olimar recently and I think he's also incredibly balanced.

I'll call Olimar balanced when he can pull six pikmin again. When you have 4 you have to be super super careful to not lose any. But with 6 you have some throw, he has a better recovery, and you can take more risks with your pikmin because you have some to spare.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I really don't think Mario or Zelda need to be changed. Zelda already isn't that good to begin with imo, and Mario feels really good, but he's more or less just the king of 'fair' characters.

Only thing OP about Mario is his fireball from what I've heard. That and his recovery, you need to see it to believe it XD.

 

[GP&B]

People complain about the Mario fireball buff because it was unnecessary to begin with. He was arguably high tier as it was.

 

[shairn]

Dthrow CG, fireball walls/setups, recovery from depths beyond hell.

I'm pretty sure Zelda can super sweetspot fair to bair on shield and still come out frame positive. Other than that I'd remove some iframes on Nayru's love.

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Ah, right. The dthrow cg. Alright, maybe change that a bit? However, I feel like he needs it in some mu's (like vs Link). I don't feel his recovery is tooooooooo broken, since it's easily interrupted. He hangs out there for quite a while.

Sure, Zelda can come out frame positive after hitting your shield with fair&bair, but why is Zelda pressuring your shield? She doesn't really have the tools to create those kinds of situations.

 

[jtm94]

Dthrow CG, fireball walls/setups, recovery from depths beyond hell.

I'm pretty sure Zelda can super sweetspot fair to bair on shield and still come out frame positive. Other than that I'd remove some iframes on Nayru's love.

I agree as hard as one can agree.

Mario can chain grab over half of the cast. If it worked on heavier characters or more on the fastfaller end it would be less of a headache, but as it is now it does significant damage unlike Marth's which does like 18%. His recovery is incredibly fast and he has so many mix up options that it is obsurd after playing characters with only 1 recovery option.

I would be happy if Nayru's had no invincibility at all or was removed as a move entirely. As a reflector it does help from time to time in some MUs though. I just want Zelda to still have strong kicks, they can KO at melee % again, but never any worse that is too far. She shouldn't be able to be allowed to just kick pressure your shield unless you allow her and at that point it isn't even unfair.

 

[Frost | Odds]

In fairness, there was a lot more crying (including by myself) about the 2.6->3.0 Bowser changes than was probably justified.

Kind of annoying that the fortresshog technique is totally different from melee, but now that we know how to do it, it's trivial

 

[Ripple]

if olimar had more pikmin for a better recovery AND to force approaches much better than he does now, he's be high tier easily

 

[shairn]

Mario's recovery is hard to deal with if he comes up from low, because of the Frame 2(3?) hitbox on his upB and good hitbox coverage. If he comes down from high, he can cover his recovery with fireballs making it difficult to intercept, and on top of that he can mix it up by stalling with cape or down B or going low. I don't think any character "needs" a CG. If it was too much for Sheik, why is it OK for so many other characters? It's not like the Link MU would be unwinnable without it, hell I think it's pretty even as it is.

I agree as hard as one can agree.

I would be happy if Nayru's had no invincibility at all or was removed as a move entirely. As a reflector it does help from time to time in some MUs though. I just want Zelda to still have strong kicks, they can KO at melee % again, but never any worse that is too far.

I'm okay with some invincibility on the startup, it helps make transform safe. Not to get into any arguments about why you would transform though. While I do like the sheer strength of her kicks, I think it'd be better if they had more startup, like her dair. As it is she can just fair out of an opponent's combo if he's too slow by a few frames, and possibly get the super sweetspot which I think is a bit harsh.

In fairness, there was a lot more crying (including by myself) about the 2.6->3.0 Bowser changes than was probably justified.

Kind of annoying that the fortresshog technique is totally different from melee, but now that we know how to do it, it's trivial

I think the down B reverse ledge grab makes up for it. It covers a lot more options than fortresshog properly timed, though fortresshog retains uses when you need to be quick.

 

[t3chn0g0at]

It's not like the Link MU would be unwinnable without it, hell I think it's pretty even as it is.

Uhh, if it's even now and you remove a 60% or 70% cg, how do you think that would turn out?

 

[Mr.Random]

Dthrow CG, fireball walls/setups, recovery from depths beyond hell.

I'm pretty sure Zelda can super sweetspot fair to bair on shield and still come out frame positive. Other than that I'd remove some iframes on Nayru's love.

They already nerfed d throw once to have more growth like docs. It's fine. The other things I agree with.

I agree as hard as one can agree.

Mario can chain grab over half of the cast. If it worked on heavier characters or more on the fastfaller end it would be less of a headache, but as it is now it does significant damage unlike Marth's which does like 18%. His recovery is incredibly fast and he has so many mix up options that it is obsurd after playing characters with only 1 recovery option.

I would be happy if Nayru's had no invincibility at all or was removed as a move entirely. As a reflector it does help from time to time in some MUs though. I just want Zelda to still have strong kicks, they can KO at melee % again, but never any worse that is too far. She shouldn't be able to be allowed to just kick pressure your shield unless you allow her and at that point it isn't even unfair.

Mario can't chain grab the whole cast it only works on heavys and faster fallers. Mid weights and floaties he can only get one more regrab or up smash/up tilt.

 

[shairn]

Uhh, if it's even now and you remove a 60% or 70% cg, how do you think that would turn out?

When I said "as it is" I meant without the CG, pardon the confusion. Why do you think Mario needs it?

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Ahh okay. I don't think he needs it in the number of matchups in which he currently has it, but I do feel that there are some matchups in which he does need it. I think he needs it vs Link because he gets zoned out so hard, but maybe not vs ZSS.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mario needs nothing. 2.5 Mario was good. Revert to 2.5 and no one will complain

 

[jtm94]

I only stated a fact. Mario can indeed chain grab over 50% of the cast tested tried and trued. It isn't the entire cast, I didn't mean to imply that if I did. Sonic isn't a fastfaller to my knowledge and I can chain grab him to 50% at least with Mario with the hardest DI possible.

I could maybe concur that Zelda's bair is fast, but the frame data for the moves from Melee is exactly the same and I honestly don't think there is a legitimate reason to change them. The moves last 1 frame longer in PM than Melee, but the IASA frames are the same. I just feel if there is any issue with her character the move can be reverted back to the Melee incarnation which is perfectly acceptable. Honestly if people could not accept Melee Zelda kick at the least, I am at a loss for words, because there are moves ported from Melee that are far more concerning.

 

[shairn]

Yeah, the moves are relatively unchanged from Melee, but the same can't be said for the rest of Zelda. The character around these moves is objectively much better, making them equally more viable.

 

[jtm94]

Yeah, the moves are relatively unchanged from Melee, but the same can't be said for the rest of Zelda. The character around these moves is objectively much better, making them equally more viable.

I agree wholeheartedly, but her other moves seem like they will be toned down from people complaining. In all honestly I would rather her other moves be hit than her kicks hit to something worse than Melee.

As for the most recent Project M blog post regarding tethers. This makes them not only not as good, but completely unviable and a last-ditch-effort move. 50 frame jump animation and 30 frames of landing lag is far too much. That on top of 1 use per air time..... I don't use tether characters and I don't want that. This game is being ruined...... I guess the best option is to tether the edge and if someone is on it just drop it and UpB, but it hurts Lucas so hard.... I don't want that for him. I'm going to have to play it to see if it's as bad as it seems.

 

[trash?]

you mean the character that's supposed to be a glass cannon now has a recovery that reflects being a glass cannon?

say it ain't so, the world is ending

 

[Strong Badam]

Sounds like someone didn't read carefully. While the hop animation itself is 50 frames, most tether characters will land before that, particularly if they fastfall. It's certainly not a guaranteed 80 frame window to punish them. Something to keep in mind is that while these are intended to be fairly punishable, very few other recoveries are designed with landing on-stage in mind. They need to be more punishable because they refresh double jumps and any secondary recovery aids such as magnet, Ivy Dair, and Olimar neutral Special.

 

[jtm94]

you mean the character that's supposed to be a glass cannon now has a recovery that reflects being a glass cannon?

say it ain't so, the world is ending

The term "glass canon" has been applied to far too many characters, please do not use generic labels like this. I think that I did react a bit hard, but 80 frames of lag is more than necessary and you know it. It also applies to more than just Lucas, characters that are not this "glass cannon" you speak of.

Sounds like someone didn't read carefully. While the hop animation itself is 50 frames, most tether characters will land before that, particularly if they fastfall. It's certainly not a guaranteed 80 frame window to punish them.

Ahh I apologize, but why put out the 50 frame number if that number isn't even relevant? It made it seem as though you must go through the motion of at least 50 frames, but I see they can fast fall it to act faster.

 

[shairn]

Sounds like someone didn't read carefully. While the hop animation itself is 50 frames, most tether characters will land before that, particularly if they fastfall. It's certainly not a guaranteed 80 frame window to punish them.

It'd be nice to have a visual aid so we can have an idea of what this hop and landing looks like.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I agree wholeheartedly, but her other moves seem like they will be toned down from people complaining. In all honestly I would rather her other moves be hit than her kicks hit to something worse than Melee.

As for the most recent Project M blog post regarding tethers. This makes them not only not as good, but completely unviable and a last-ditch-effort move. 50 frame jump animation and 30 frames of landing lag is far too much. That on top of 1 use per air time..... I don't use tether characters and I don't want that. This game is being ruined...... I guess the best option is to tether the edge and if someone is on it just drop it and UpB, but it hurts Lucas so hard.... I don't want that for him. I'm going to have to play it to see if it's as bad as it seems.

-4 frame shine which is still good for shield pressure
-better wavedash than Fox, wavemagnet is safer when spaced
-DJC combos
-insane juggles
-long dang up b
-decent projectile
-kill throw, and combo throw with near guaranteed DACUS followup.
-good dash and air speed
-losing tether makes him suck, despite having all of this

I don't even know anymore.

 

[kchamp523]

I agree wholeheartedly, but her other moves seem like they will be toned down from people complaining. In all honestly I would rather her other moves be hit than her kicks hit to something worse than Melee.

As for the most recent Project M blog post regarding tethers. This makes them not only not as good, but completely unviable and a last-ditch-effort move. 50 frame jump animation and 30 frames of landing lag is far too much. That on top of 1 use per air time..... I don't use tether characters and I don't want that. This game is being ruined...... I guess the best option is to tether the edge and if someone is on it just drop it and UpB, but it hurts Lucas so hard.... I don't want that for him. I'm going to have to play it to see if it's as bad as it seems.

Well I mean they have testers for a reason.

 

[GP&B]

I don't really see the issue. Yeah, the numbers could end up being a bit much but we can't know that without actually playing. I was going to mention what SB just said now, but I'll also bring up that 30 frames is the same as air dodge special landing IIRC and there's ways to avoid getting punished from air dodges as well.

 

[jtm94]

-4 frame shine which is still good for shield pressure
-better wavedash than Fox, wavemagnet is safer when spaced
-DJC combos
-insane juggles
-long dang up b
-decent projectile
-kill throw, and combo throw with near guaranteed DACUS followup.
-good dash and air speed
-losing tether makes him suck, despite having all of tjis

I don't even know anymore.

But you are not taking into account that he may not have any of that soon. You honestly cannot say his UpB is lackluster at best, even compared to melee recovery. I would expect that his DownB properties would be revamped in line with more fair recoveries anyways. I guess I am taking too many things that have yet to happen into context.

I don't really see the issue. Yeah, the numbers could end up being a bit much but we can't know that without actually playing. I was going to mention what SB just said now, but I'll also bring up that 30 frames is the same as air dodge special landing IIRC and there's ways to avoid getting punished from air dodges as well.

That's 10 frames. Maybe you're thinking of z air special fall landing lag?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

This game is being ruined......

....what? character with godlike offense and better-than-fox shield pressure is having their nearly unpunishable frankly broken recovery option nerfed and this ruins the game?

just play on HP mode if you hate recovering so much. typical zelda player, wants to recover as free as possible

edit:

But you are not taking into account that he may not have any of that soon.

wow man you gotta chill out. i'm guessing he might get nerfs to his grab duration, maybe his OU Usmash. but the nerfs he deserved were recovery nerfs - like the one they just announced.

 

[jtm94]

....what? character with godlike offense and better-than-fox shield pressure is having their nearly unpunishable frankly broken recovery option nerfed and this ruins the game?

just play on HP mode if you hate recovering so much. typical zelda player, wants to recover as free as possible

It wasn't just regarding Lucas. This affects other characters like Olimar strongly as well and he doesn't need such harsh changes to his recovery.

Thank you for bringing my character into this. I actually play Sheik because she is like Zelda but better in nearly every way and less susceptible to changes 'cause Melee.

 

[victinivcreate1]

....what? character with godlike offense and better-than-fox shield pressure is having their nearly unpunishable frankly broken recovery option nerfed and this ruins the game?

just play on HP mode if you hate recovering so much. typical zelda player, wants to recover as free as possible

I mean **** even Mewtwo's recovery was edgeguardable if you read Teleport.

Tethers are too risky to even challenge in 3.0, unless you're one of those jank characters, or just very lucky to be floaty and have a long lasting aerial (Samus lol)

 

[EmptySky00]

....what? character with godlike offense and better-than-fox shield pressure is having their nearly unpunishable frankly broken recovery option nerfed and this ruins the game?

just play on HP mode if you hate recovering so much. typical zelda player, wants to recover as free as possible

Typical Zelda player? That's main profiling, my good sir.

But seriously, that's an ad hominem fallacy and it makes you wrong by default

 

[trash?]

The term "glass cannon" has been applied to far too many characters, please do not use generic labels like this.

he's a high offense character with what was supposed to be bad, punishable recovery as dictated by his old tether being easy to hit out of and his upb distance being both tiny and easy to disrupt, so you can't even pull a ness and position it a bit further away

It also applies to more than just Lucas, characters that are not this "glass cannon" you speak of

samus still has the best recovery in the game without her zair, both links are satisfied with their bomb shenanigans, ZSS has a third jump as-is with downb, ivy has dairs to re-use upon letting go of tether, before using another tether (because characters with upb tethers get two chances, remember), and same with olimar and his neutral b. lucas is the only one getting significant recovery issues out of this, and as I've said, good.

look, idk about you all, but you can't complain about recovery for months on end and then get mad when they rightfully nerf the most centralizing form of recovery that several characters have

 

[Strong Badam]

....what? character with godlike offense and better-than-fox shield pressure is having their nearly unpunishable frankly broken recovery option nerfed and this ruins the game?

just play on HP mode if you hate recovering so much. typical zelda player, wants to recover as free as possible

Lucas' shield pressure is worse than Fox's, FYI. I think Lucario is legitimately the only character who is better against shields than Fox, mostly because he can cancel his stuff into a command grab.

 

[jtm94]

I've been playing Sheik no one makes it back to the edge except Mario. Recoveries as they are are punishable bar M2. I like a more edge based game, but don't think I've been complaining about recoveries, just get good and edgeguard.

Lucas had the best shield pressure when his DownB could crush shields faster than Bozer's DownB.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

It wasn't just regarding Lucas. This affects other characters like Olimar strongly as well and he doesn't need such harsh changes to his recovery.

Thank you for bringing my character into this. I actually play Sheik because she is like Zelda but better in nearly every way and less susceptible to changes 'cause Melee.

alrigh alright cool your jets people. I'm not characteracist, it was a joke. and i hate zelda.

 

[Ogopogo]

Can Fox break a shield without the opponent having any chance of escaping? Would it have to be absolutely frame perfect?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

So, I've been thinking about . Is he the best fatty in the game? He's pretty fast and his hitboxes are like those of a sword character... on crack. Also his throws have wide utility (love that dthrow tech chase, damage isn't too crazy but it rattles people) with a huge grab and fast dash - and great dashdance. CC -> dtilt is wild. His OoS game as previously mentioned in this thread is saved from absolute **** tier by upB oos at least. His recovery is okay-ish but mostly he gets owned off stage - cancelling his glide attack by sliding off a platform or ledge is situationally nifty. His edgeguarding is fantastic, and he's got those EZmode combos.

What do y'all think though?

 

[BleachigoZX]

Welp, way to ruin something amazing. I hope all the 3.5 downloads come with tissue boxes for all the crybabies you just catered to.

 

[Ripple]

yes because every character being able to recover from nearly anything was "amazing"

 

[Phan7om]

look, idk about you all, but you can't complain about recovery for months on end and then get mad when they rightfully nerf the most centralizing form of recovery that several characters have

The logic is, "I want everyone else's recovery to be nerfed except for my character." So when it gets changed, its a big deal and the character then becomes unviable lmao.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Welp, way to ruin something amazing. I hope all the 3.5 downloads come with tissue boxes for all the crybabies you just catered to.

This change is as much for viewers as players. And also, the amount of tears in reaction to this nerf exceeds the amount of tears shed due to tethers in the first place by an order of magnitude already, and its only been a few hours.

Edit: for some reason I can't delete the faces of those top tier ****s from my post on the mobile site. Top tier except for Lucas that is, he ****ing sucks now and is totally unsalvageable am I right? (no, I am not, stfu whiners)

 

[Phan7om]

O snap, guess I gotta think to recover. This game is ruined, way to screw things up.

sarcasm